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Thread: Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

  1. #741
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Interesting. The other day I was on a machine that looked as if it was from this era. It had double up on it. The bill validator lit up at the right time, but it didnt take any bills. Feel free to PM me if im missing a step or something.
    I'm guessing that machine had its chip replaced with a debugged chip.

  2. #742
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Interesting. The other day I was on a machine that looked as if it was from this era. It had double up on it. The bill validator lit up at the right time, but it didnt take any bills. Feel free to PM me if im missing a step or something.
    I'm guessing that machine had its chip replaced with a debugged chip.
    I would think they would just add a fix where the bill validator went dark when unavailable just like on all the other ones. No?

  3. #743
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Interesting. The other day I was on a machine that looked as if it was from this era. It had double up on it. The bill validator lit up at the right time, but it didnt take any bills. Feel free to PM me if im missing a step or something.
    I'm guessing that machine had its chip replaced with a debugged chip.
    I would think they would just add a fix where the bill validator went dark when unavailable just like on all the other ones. No?
    This is correct and it's what the IGT memo I saw at the Silverton at the time said. It explained that all worldwide customers were to shut down the double up option on generation XX to XXXX machines, and that they would be shipping out eproms with the correct programming to all customers which they would have to replace & install on their own.

    This tells me that since the bill validator on non-infected machines goes dark as soon as DEAL is pushed and does not light up again until the hand is over, it only makes sense that the fix would include that exact same procedure.

    I do not know if pre double up bug machines or post bug machines include something different.

  4. #744
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    I'm guessing that machine had its chip replaced with a debugged chip.
    I would think they would just add a fix where the bill validator went dark when unavailable just like on all the other ones. No?
    This is correct and it's what the IGT memo I saw at the Silverton at the time said. It explained that all worldwide customers were to shut down the double up option on generation XX to XXXX machines, and that they would be shipping out eproms with the correct programming to all customers which they would have to replace & install on their own.

    This tells me that since the bill validator on non-infected machines goes dark as soon as DEAL is pushed and does not light up again until the hand is over, it only makes sense that the fix would include that exact same procedure.

    I do not know if pre double up bug machines or post bug machines include something different.
    In other words, even though the memo doesn't state that the bill acceptor (which also validates the bills) goes dark as a result of the fix, you have no problem concluding that this is included in the fix. It could have been a rush job, where they just wanted to get a fix out there quick that won't accept bills until after the conclusion of the hand and could care less about the cosmetic fix of the acceptor/validator being lit. It may or may not have been included in the fix, but you drawing a conclusion when it wasn't stated explicitly is speculation that was portrayed as fact.
    Remember they were under tremendous pressure and scrutiny (this is a publicly traded company) to get this thing fixed ASAP. So basically, sure it could have been included in the eprom patch, and we can state that it probably was, but please don't state this as if it is known for certain, because it isn't, unless you have further information than just the memo.

  5. #745
    You need to better understand how the business world responds to major problems they are responsible for.

    When IGT put out the worldwide memo, their announcing the manner in which they would correct the flaw (new eprom to be sent to all customers for self-replace & install) would have NEVER been a temporary fix, patch job, or bandaid get-by. It only makes sense that they correct the very embarrassing mistake (and by "mistake" I mean mistake by a programmer or a mistake/lapse in not having adequate quality control to spot the flaw--whether programmed in by error or not) by returning each machine to its originally intended spec.

    So yes, this is my conclusion. But it's the only intelligent conclusion I can come to, based on years of being involved in similarly highly visible worldwide equipment flaws. I'm not all-knowing about everything that goes on inside IGT and I knew far less while operating this play. But certain aspects add up, and this is how I see it.

  6. #746
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    You need to better understand how the business world responds to major problems they are responsible for.

    When IGT put out the worldwide memo, their announcing the manner in which they would correct the flaw (new eprom to be sent to all customers for self-replace & install) would have NEVER been a temporary fix, patch job, or bandaid get-by. It only makes sense that they correct the very embarrassing mistake (and by "mistake" I mean mistake by a programmer or a mistake/lapse in not having adequate quality control to spot the flaw--whether programmed in by error or not) by returning each machine to its originally intended spec.

    So yes, this is my conclusion. But it's the only intelligent conclusion I can come to, based on years of being involved in similarly highly visible worldwide equipment flaws. I'm not all-knowing about everything that goes on inside IGT and I knew far less while operating this play. But certain aspects add up, and this is how I see it.
    Assuming (for the sake of argument so as to advance the discussion) IGT included a bill acceptor/validator fix, along with the double up fix, then it is difficult to explain why Axel's bill wouldn't be accepted - I have little doubt that he chose the correct model (Game King 5.x) given his experience and the double up bug (as described) is easy to invoke so I don't believe he made a procedural error either.

  7. #747
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    The short and sweet of it is that if you sit down at a machine that has a pay table that states that four 3's pays 200 credits and playing a $1 you hit four 3's and manipulate the machine to pay you 2000 credits (the $10 level)Ö.that is WRONG! There is no grey area. WRONG!

    Illegal? I guess not. Cheating? That is for everyone to decide for themselves. But there is no grey are in right or wrong. And if you think there is...well we will see how you fare trying to explain that to St Peter, Mr. former Alter Boy. And I hope that day is far off.
    Of course there are always grey areas in 'right and wrong'. And not only that, there are degrees of 'wrongness'.

    Grey Areas
    Is it always wrong to kill? What if it's in self defense? Is it always wrong to lie? What if lying saves a life? Is it always wrong to steal? What if stealing a loaf of bread keeps your family from starving?

    Degrees of Wrong
    Is it wrong to call someone names for no reason? Sure! But not as wrong as punching them in the mouth for no reason. And that's not as wrong as shooting them in the head for no reason.

    Is it wrong?
    So now we get the the real question...."Is it "Wrong" to legally exploit a Video Poker game's software flaw? I would argue that this is a competition between player and casino and as long as the player is behaving perfectly legally it's the casino's responsibility to make sure their machines are paying off as they expect. Otherwise, one day you may find yourself arrested for taking advantage of seeing the dealer's hole card....as the casino could claim they didn't intend for the player to know what the dealer had. It's a slippery slope.

    But even if you truly believe that it is wrong to exploit the double up flaw, how serious a transgression is it really? The bottom line is you took advantage of a casino....legally. Big deal. Are you really ready to moralize and condemn someone for that? Isn't that what all advantage players do every day? You're just arguing against the method they used to legally take advantage of casinos. The end result is the same.

    Humans do things that are 'Wrong' every day. They spit. They curse. They Smoke and Drink. They speed and run stop lights and disobey all kinds of traffic laws. Some believe Abortion is a right. Others feel it is a sin. The fact of the matter is that we are all 'sinners'. It's easy to get on a self-righteous high horse and point out moral transgressions in others before we really consider our own non-perfect lives. That's wrong too, eh?

    Ok...sometimes I wax a little philosophical.
    This whole post is liberalism 101. Since I am an anti-liberal, Iíve got to respond. First, you pulled out the old tried-and-true go-to-liberal argument to try to show right or wrong is relative. What is that? The ďstealing the loaf of bread so your family doesnít starve to deathĒ hypothetical. Itís a great hypothetical situation to illustrate a point, but the problem is there is no where in the world where you can give an example where this has occurred. Even in Third World poverty stricken nations no one is in that situation. There are small menial jobs someone can do to afford a loaf of bread.

    Liberals usually use this example to excuse all the prisoners filling our prisons by stealing (and selling illegal) things. For the record, contrary to what liberals think, no one in America is stealing because their family is starving to death. Itís not occurring in the third world either.

    As far as different crimes having a different degree of wrongness to them of course thatís true. Thatís why we have different punishments for different crimes. All crimes obviously donít deserve the death penalty. I failed to understand the point youíre trying to make here.

    As far as if using the Double Up bug was wrong, KJ is right. It was wrong. Thereís no moral relativism argument that can be used to make it right. Nester had to give all his winnings back to the casino once they caught him doing it. If what he was doing was right, he couldíve kept it.

    My view and the courtís view is that people should try to beat the casinoís games the way they were intended to be played. This is why courts in two different nations, America and England, ruled against Phil Ivey in his edge sorting scam.

    Saying all this, does not mean I wouldnít have tried to take advantage of the double up bug if I came across it. But I certainly would not have been proud of myself or broadcast it to anybody that I did it. If I did something like this, Iíd probably take it to the grave with me. But then Iíd have to deal with St Peter and God on the other side so I donít know if thatíd be a good idea either.

    Bottom line is KJ is right on this one. Using the double up bug was wrong. There is no moral relativism argument they can be used to make it right.
    If you climb down from your self-righteous moral high horse, you might understand my point. I'm claiming exploiting the flaw is not right or wrong, good nor evil. It's just playing the game as the machine and the law allows. Just because the Casino didn't expect those results is neither my problem nor my sin. And I'm certainly not perfect enough to label others as not having a 'moral compass' just because they see this as different from my thoughts. Let he without sin cast the fist stone. Cast away bro.

  8. #748
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    You need to better understand how the business world responds to major problems they are responsible for.

    When IGT put out the worldwide memo, their announcing the manner in which they would correct the flaw (new eprom to be sent to all customers for self-replace & install) would have NEVER been a temporary fix, patch job, or bandaid get-by. It only makes sense that they correct the very embarrassing mistake (and by "mistake" I mean mistake by a programmer or a mistake/lapse in not having adequate quality control to spot the flaw--whether programmed in by error or not) by returning each machine to its originally intended spec.

    So yes, this is my conclusion. But it's the only intelligent conclusion I can come to, based on years of being involved in similarly highly visible worldwide equipment flaws. I'm not all-knowing about everything that goes on inside IGT and I knew far less while operating this play. But certain aspects add up, and this is how I see it.
    Assuming (for the sake of argument so as to advance the discussion) IGT included a bill acceptor/validator fix, along with the double up fix, then it is difficult to explain why Axel's bill wouldn't be accepted - I have little doubt that he chose the correct model (Game King 5.x) given his experience and the double up bug (as described) is easy to invoke so I don't believe he made a procedural error either.
    The double up flaw is driven by the bill feeder issue. If you were not able to insert a bill, which is the key to being able to change the denomination, then there would be no bug. So the "fix" had to focus on that.

    Axel doesn't really know which generation machine he was playing, and I never had any idea about certain generations of machines having this flaw when I played it. I ran across plenty of possible machines back then that didn't work. The fact that he played a machine that lit up after a winning hand and before choosing to double up or not doesn't surprise me. But if you're saying that IGT did not send out new programs that did not 100% conform to the specs the machines were supposed to be running at, I'd call bs on that.

  9. #749
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    You need to better understand how the business world responds to major problems they are responsible for.

    When IGT put out the worldwide memo, their announcing the manner in which they would correct the flaw (new eprom to be sent to all customers for self-replace & install) would have NEVER been a temporary fix, patch job, or bandaid get-by. It only makes sense that they correct the very embarrassing mistake (and by "mistake" I mean mistake by a programmer or a mistake/lapse in not having adequate quality control to spot the flaw--whether programmed in by error or not) by returning each machine to its originally intended spec.

    So yes, this is my conclusion. But it's the only intelligent conclusion I can come to, based on years of being involved in similarly highly visible worldwide equipment flaws. I'm not all-knowing about everything that goes on inside IGT and I knew far less while operating this play. But certain aspects add up, and this is how I see it.
    Assuming (for the sake of argument so as to advance the discussion) IGT included a bill acceptor/validator fix, along with the double up fix, then it is difficult to explain why Axel's bill wouldn't be accepted - I have little doubt that he chose the correct model (Game King 5.x) given his experience and the double up bug (as described) is easy to invoke so I don't believe he made a procedural error either.
    The double up flaw is driven by the bill feeder issue. If you were not able to insert a bill, which is the key to being able to change the denomination, then there would be no bug. So the "fix" had to focus on that.

    Axel doesn't really know which generation machine he was playing, and I never had any idea about certain generations of machines having this flaw when I played it. I ran across plenty of possible machines back then that didn't work. The fact that he played a machine that lit up after a winning hand and before choosing to double up or not doesn't surprise me. But if you're saying that IGT did not send out new programs that did not 100% conform to the specs the machines were supposed to be running at, I'd call bs on that.
    This bit of information about the bill feeder being the key because it allowed one to change denomination is another piece of information that adds to Rob's credibility. I had no idea why the bill feeder was key until Rob explained it here. I dont' think that bit of information was published anywhere or I would have recalled reading it.
    Keystone is a mental midget.

  10. #750
    The bill validation issue was on WMS machines. A bunch of people got away with it at my home casino.

  11. #751
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post

    Assuming (for the sake of argument so as to advance the discussion) IGT included a bill acceptor/validator fix, along with the double up fix, then it is difficult to explain why Axel's bill wouldn't be accepted - I have little doubt that he chose the correct model (Game King 5.x) given his experience and the double up bug (as described) is easy to invoke so I don't believe he made a procedural error either.
    The double up flaw is driven by the bill feeder issue. If you were not able to insert a bill, which is the key to being able to change the denomination, then there would be no bug. So the "fix" had to focus on that.

    Axel doesn't really know which generation machine he was playing, and I never had any idea about certain generations of machines having this flaw when I played it. I ran across plenty of possible machines back then that didn't work. The fact that he played a machine that lit up after a winning hand and before choosing to double up or not doesn't surprise me. But if you're saying that IGT did not send out new programs that did not 100% conform to the specs the machines were supposed to be running at, I'd call bs on that.
    This bit of information about the bill feeder being the key because it allowed one to change denomination is another piece of information that adds to Rob's credibility. I had no idea why the bill feeder was key until Rob explained it here. I dont' think that bit of information was published anywhere or I would have recalled reading it.
    FYI, I knew this information before Rob had said anything, so it wasn't a complete secret. If you go back, you can see I mention something about this before however I may have disguised the exact thing I was talking about. I have been told by someone in the know that this information was public, but they were not 100% sure, they were just very sure.

  12. #752
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    The bill validation issue was on WMS machines. A bunch of people got away with it at my home casino.
    What were they getting away with? Within the method that Rob claims effects the double up glitch it has a particular function that doesn't seem beneficial otherwise.

  13. #753
    I'm not sure if it was stated in this thread already but what are the Game King versions that are potentially exploitable? Any 5.x?

    I was recently in a pretty divey casino that had 5.x (judging from Google images) though I didn't recognize the relevance of that.

  14. #754
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    You need to better understand how the business world responds to major problems they are responsible for.

    When IGT put out the worldwide memo, their announcing the manner in which they would correct the flaw (new eprom to be sent to all customers for self-replace & install) would have NEVER been a temporary fix, patch job, or bandaid get-by. It only makes sense that they correct the very embarrassing mistake (and by "mistake" I mean mistake by a programmer or a mistake/lapse in not having adequate quality control to spot the flaw--whether programmed in by error or not) by returning each machine to its originally intended spec.

    So yes, this is my conclusion. But it's the only intelligent conclusion I can come to, based on years of being involved in similarly highly visible worldwide equipment flaws. I'm not all-knowing about everything that goes on inside IGT and I knew far less while operating this play. But certain aspects add up, and this is how I see it.
    Assuming (for the sake of argument so as to advance the discussion) IGT included a bill acceptor/validator fix, along with the double up fix, then it is difficult to explain why Axel's bill wouldn't be accepted - I have little doubt that he chose the correct model (Game King 5.x) given his experience and the double up bug (as described) is easy to invoke so I don't believe he made a procedural error either.
    The double up flaw is driven by the bill feeder issue. If you were not able to insert a bill, which is the key to being able to change the denomination, then there would be no bug. So the "fix" had to focus on that.

    Axel doesn't really know which generation machine he was playing, and I never had any idea about certain generations of machines having this flaw when I played it. I ran across plenty of possible machines back then that didn't work. The fact that he played a machine that lit up after a winning hand and before choosing to double up or not doesn't surprise me. But if you're saying that IGT did not send out new programs that did not 100% conform to the specs the machines were supposed to be running at, I'd call bs on that.
    The double up bug includes the fact that the lit bill acceptor accepted bills (and then the player can subsequently change denominations). When the bug was fixed, it was not necessarily the case that they also darkened the bill acceptor - they (IGT) could have just changed the code such that the acceptor doesn't receive bills (until after the hand is resolved), but not bother with fixing the unlighting of it until resolution of the hand. So, while it is likely that they fixed not only the bug, but also darkening the bill acceptor (as you state) it does not state it in the memo and so it is not a certainty. So Axel's situation remains a mystery. It could be that there is a setting on the old eproms that shuts off of the bill acceptor motor, so that an eprom swap is unnecessary (for those managers who believed/believe their patrons would hate not having double-up enabled), with the tradeoff being that the light is still on with the old chips. It could be that the new chips are in place and it was a hurry up fix as described above. It could be that the model Axel tried this on was not one of the models that had the bug, but I find this very unlikely because he already had knowledge of the bug before you described it to him Ron, and IIRC he stated that other people he knew have executed the maneuver successfully.

    The reverse - sticking a bill into a darkened acceptor is something I could see people trying on various slots and VP machines, and, who knows, maybe it will suck a bill in with desirable consequences.
    Last edited by tableplay; 06-17-2019 at 10:15 PM.

  15. #755
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post

    The double up flaw is driven by the bill feeder issue. If you were not able to insert a bill, which is the key to being able to change the denomination, then there would be no bug. So the "fix" had to focus on that.

    Axel doesn't really know which generation machine he was playing, and I never had any idea about certain generations of machines having this flaw when I played it. I ran across plenty of possible machines back then that didn't work. The fact that he played a machine that lit up after a winning hand and before choosing to double up or not doesn't surprise me. But if you're saying that IGT did not send out new programs that did not 100% conform to the specs the machines were supposed to be running at, I'd call bs on that.
    This bit of information about the bill feeder being the key because it allowed one to change denomination is another piece of information that adds to Rob's credibility. I had no idea why the bill feeder was key until Rob explained it here. I dont' think that bit of information was published anywhere or I would have recalled reading it.
    FYI, I knew this information before Rob had said anything, so it wasn't a complete secret. If you go back, you can see I mention something about this before however I may have disguised the exact thing I was talking about. I have been told by someone in the know that this information was public, but they were not 100% sure, they were just very sure.
    I think Rob's overall knowledge of the nuts and bolts of this play is key. In a public debate on it I think it will become apparent to many that his overall knowledge of the play is far superior to anyone else's.
    Keystone is a mental midget.

  16. #756
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    I think Rob's overall knowledge of the nuts and bolts of this play is key. In a public debate on it I think it will become apparent to many that his overall knowledge of the play is far superior to anyone else's.
    Mickeycrimm, you want to see what you want to see. Having now befriended and decided you find Rob credible, THAT is what you see.

    But the fact remains that for any objective person Robs claims remain dubious based on 20+ years of untruthfulness.

    I don't see anyone debating that Rob now appears to have extensive knowledge of this play and how it worked. But it remains that there are numerous ways he could have come into this knowledge after the fact....after the story broke. And one of those ways is for him to have actually found and exploited the play to some degree, a smaller degree than his claim, AFTER the fact.

    Now again, perhaps it went down exactly as Rob claims. Perhaps it didn't. Rob who for years demanded proof of everyone, you included on every claim, has offered absolutely nothing in the way of proof that would collaborate his claim. All paperwork and tax documents were mysteriously disregarded, when he knew that some day he intended to publicly make this claim and people would want to see something to back it up. How convenient!

    In the absence of any such collaborating documentation, people only have Rob's reputation and 20+ years of untruthful claims to base any kind of credibility on. And THAT is exactly what credibility is. YOU build it up over time.

    So you can now choose to put blinders on and accept your new friend's claim and support him by finding him credible, but it just doesn't make it so. A 20 year history says otherwise.

  17. #757
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    I think Rob's overall knowledge of the nuts and bolts of this play is key. In a public debate on it I think it will become apparent to many that his overall knowledge of the play is far superior to anyone else's.
    Mickeycrimm, you want to see what you want to see. Having now befriended and decided you find Rob credible, THAT is what you see.

    But the fact remains that for any objective person Robs claims remain dubious based on 20+ years of untruthfulness.

    I don't see anyone debating that Rob now appears to have extensive knowledge of this play and how it worked. But it remains that there are numerous ways he could have come into this knowledge after the fact....after the story broke. And one of those ways is for him to have actually found and exploited the play to some degree, a smaller degree than his claim, AFTER the fact.

    Now again, perhaps it went down exactly as Rob claims. Perhaps it didn't. Rob who for years demanded proof of everyone, you included on every claim, has offered absolutely nothing in the way of proof that would collaborate his claim. All paperwork and tax documents were mysteriously disregarded, when he knew that some day he intended to publicly make this claim and people would want to see something to back it up. How convenient!

    In the absence of any such collaborating documentation, people only have Rob's reputation and 20+ years of untruthful claims to base any kind of credibility on. And THAT is exactly what credibility is. YOU build it up over time.

    So you can now choose to put blinders on and accept your new friend's claim and support him by finding him credible, but it just doesn't make it so. A 20 year history says otherwise.
    You're like that clown John Brennan every time he appears on kooky MSLSD tv. Whenever anyone articulates even the slightest wording that employs the faintest of support of or agreement with our President and regardless of the existence of strong evidence, Brennan jumps up & down crying foul like a wounded animal, and immediately goes into his same old repetitive boring rants of why Trump just CAN'T be trusted. He just cannot put up with anything positive being said about someone he foolishly hates so deeply. You'd think someone just tried sticking a tablespoon into his gut instead of a knife.

  18. #758
    Rob, I don't care about John Brennan or Donald Trump or politics that you obsess over. And that is not the topic being discussed, so I'll ask you to stay on topic if you want to continue any discussion with me on this topic

  19. #759
    But kew.....haven't you noticed? There IS no one interested in discussing any of your conspiracy theories with you. Methinks you'd create more interest if you told us about how you were going to change the world by attending that weirdo Burning Man thing this summer! After all, aren't those the type of people we want leading us into the future? Aren't they "the hope"?

    I thought you were an AP. THAT'S where the money is.

  20. #760
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    I think Rob's overall knowledge of the nuts and bolts of this play is key. In a public debate on it I think it will become apparent to many that his overall knowledge of the play is far superior to anyone else's.
    Mickeycrimm, you want to see what you want to see. Having now befriended and decided you find Rob credible, THAT is what you see.

    But the fact remains that for any objective person Robs claims remain dubious based on 20+ years of untruthfulness.

    I don't see anyone debating that Rob now appears to have extensive knowledge of this play and how it worked. But it remains that there are numerous ways he could have come into this knowledge after the fact....after the story broke. And one of those ways is for him to have actually found and exploited the play to some degree, a smaller degree than his claim, AFTER the fact.

    Now again, perhaps it went down exactly as Rob claims. Perhaps it didn't. Rob who for years demanded proof of everyone, you included on every claim, has offered absolutely nothing in the way of proof that would collaborate his claim. All paperwork and tax documents were mysteriously disregarded, when he knew that some day he intended to publicly make this claim and people would want to see something to back it up. How convenient!

    In the absence of any such collaborating documentation, people only have Rob's reputation and 20+ years of untruthful claims to base any kind of credibility on. And THAT is exactly what credibility is. YOU build it up over time.

    So you can now choose to put blinders on and accept your new friend's claim and support him by finding him credible, but it just doesn't make it so. A 20 year history says otherwise.
    Exactly This!

    Rob never, and I mean NEVER partook in ANY of these glitches, plays etc. Again, anyone, and that includes AP's, that are falling for this, are completely stupid!! Wise the fuck up!!!!

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