Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

[kewlJ]

Advantage play, cheating, crime....where do you draw the line? Obviously the definition of advantage play is pretty simple. Playing with an advantage. By this definition even the most illegal things like capping bets, marking cards would be an advantage play. But I don't think any reasonable person or AP would consider it so. So where is the line?

Obviously except in the mind of the casino industry, things like card counting or vulturing machines, isn't cheating or illegal. And just as obvious things like marking cards and light wands are cheating and illegal. But what about the grey area in between. With table games things like hole-carding? Not illegal but is it cheating?

On the machine side, like I said, I don't think anyone outside the casino industry would consider vulturing cheating or illegal. And it is pretty clear that using a device like a lightwand or other electronic device to jam or alter the electronics is both cheating and illegal. But again what about the grey area in between?

What if a player discovers a glitch that allows for a higher payout or a payout of jackpot hands at a higher denomination than was actually played and won? Is this a legitimate advantage play? Is it cheating? Is it illegal? I mean, I guess technically the player hasn't done anything illegal. Maybe some legalese thing like knowingly accepting payment you weren't entitled to. I don't know.

One final question. Suppose someone is charged but the government can't make the case and ends up dropping the charges such as the Game King double up case. Was the act still illegal?

I am anxious to hear the views of all my fellow AP's especially you Rob Singer?

[kewlJ]

As a follow up question, if hypothetically of course, someone had done this for a number of years in the mid 2000's and stopped about the time they became aware that others had been arrested for it, I wonder what the statute of limitations would be for being charged for any possible crime?

I am guessing right about now. So (again hypothetically) someone might now feel comfortable coming forward to discuss it. I'd be damn sure though.

[kewlJ]

And I really would like to hear opinions of other members, both AP's and non-APs, as this could be a good discussion, so I will start. While an advantage play yes, I would consider this kind of thing cheating if not illegal and would not be impressed by implementation of such activity.

But watching the casino industry move closer and closer to what I consider the cheating and illegal lines, I am of the mindset lately that almost anything goes....that there are no real lines anymore.

[monet]

Moses... are you using kewlJ's account??

[Rob.Singer]

As asked for my input---

Statute of Limitations for criminal acts:

Federal: 5 years.
Nevada: 4 years.
Arizona: 7 years.
DAMN SURE: 10 years.

[kewlJ]

As asked for my input---

Statute of Limitations for criminal acts:

Federal: 5 years.
Nevada: 4 years.
Arizona: 7 years.
DAMN SURE: 10 years.

Rob I am less than impressed. I really am. I withdraw my congratulations that I offered. Although I believe I did say something along the lines that I am always happy when someone beats the casinos fairly and legally.

When Axel and Mickey confirmed that Rob may have actually won the money claimed, I assumed we were talking legally. That Rob had discovered some mathematical thing unbeknownst to anyone else, since Rob is always touting his education and mathematical superiority. But it turns out he stole the money. Is that what they taught in those advanced mathematical courses?

It's funny, I have been saying all along that Rob was using alternative math. Boy was I right. He would hit a jackpot at one denomination and think he should be paid at many times that amount. THAT is alternative math alright!

But seriously now that the statute of limitations has run out Rob proudly....proudly wants to brag about and celebrate his "achievement". And he is begging to go on GWAE to do so to an even larger audience. I don't know if that will occur (I have my doubts) but I really hope it does. I know at least one of the Hosts will share my view and tell Rob that his great achievement is stealing. We'll see what happens.

I guess I shouldn't be as surprised as this is coming from a guy who believes filing for bankruptcy and failing to meet financial obligations is a good thing, that bankruptcy is.... how did he put it... "a financial tool that allows you to grow wealth".

All I can say is Rob Singer or Argentino or whatever your name is.....your parents really failed you.

[tableplay]

Suppose someone is charged but the government can't make the case and ends up dropping the charges such as the Game King double up case. Was the act still illegal?

KewlJ, IMHO, it wasn't illegal (and not cheating). The reason I think this way is because the player has the right to push buttons on a publicly accessible device in any sequence they choose. If the machine is physically altered by the player then I think it is illegal (and cheating).

[kewlJ]

KewlJ, IMHO, it wasn't illegal (and not cheating). The reason I think this way is because the player has the right to push buttons on a publicly accessible device in any sequence they choose. If the machine is physically altered by the player then I think it is illegal (and cheating).

It's not about pushing buttons, IMO, it's about receiving and accepting payment in amounts much greater than the jackpot that you actually played and won. You don't think that is either illegal or cheating?

And if it's not illegal why would there be any concern about statute of limitations?

Funny thing....when you read the article about Kane and Nestor. Nestor was a losing degenerate player. Lost 20k per year for 6 years prior. Was on welfare. Couldn't pay his bills and meet his financial obligations. That sounds eerily similar to someone else we know that had bancrupcies, and legal judgements against them. I get when you reach that level all sense of right and wrong goes out the window, but that doesn't mean that things stop being right or wrong. Receiving and accepting money in an amount much greater than the amount you won and played is wrong under any circumstances.

[redietz]

KewlJ, IMHO, it wasn't illegal (and not cheating). The reason I think this way is because the player has the right to push buttons on a publicly accessible device in any sequence they choose. If the machine is physically altered by the player then I think it is illegal (and cheating).

It's not about pushing buttons, IMO, it's about receiving and accepting payment in amounts much greater than the jackpot that you actually played and won. You don't think that is either illegal or cheating?

And if it's not illegal why would there be any concern about statute of limitations?

Funny thing....when you read the article about Kane and Nestor. Nestor was a losing degenerate player. Lost 20k per year for 6 years prior. Was on welfare. Couldn't pay his bills and meet his financial obligations. That sounds eerily similar to someone else we know that had bancrupcies, and legal judgements against them. I get when you reach that level all sense of right and wrong goes out the window, but that doesn't mean that things stop being right or wrong. Receiving and accepting money in an amount much greater than the amount you won and played is wrong under any circumstances.

I'm anti-casino in every way imaginable. I think, unfortunately, that if payouts are incorrect, the precedents have been set in both the casino and other industries for the casinos to retrieve their money regardless of the motivation or knowledge level of the beneficiary. I don't know if there is a difference between a video poker overpay, for example, and a "jackpot by accident" that the casino retrieves. If, for example, they see the overpay on surveillance, but don't catch you on the premises at the time, they will probably pursue you for the money. I'm also not sure there is a difference between an ATM spitting out too much money or a check from the bank arriving with too much cash and a video poker machine overpaying. In each case, the beneficiary is going to be pursued for a return of the funds, regardless of motivation or knowledge. It doesn't matter if it's Bill Gates, who may not notice a particular 50K overpay. They are coming for their money.

[redietz]

A few weeks down the road, on my blog, I'll address the standard take (which is also my take) for higher stakes sports bettors regarding "cheating." There are a number of issues sports books try to define as "cheating." Usually, they fail unless they get specific statutes written for them.

[regnis]

While this type of profit being suggested is probably not illegal, it still would be subject to the casino taking action for return of the amounts that were "overpaid". As to the issue of Bankruptcy, it is a useful and valuable financial tool. We use it not just to avoid debt but to avoid lengthy and costly litigation on legitimate questions of fact. Also, I have to say, it provides great pleasure when some hot shot attorney thinks he has you by the balls and you let the opponent run up high legal fees preparing for trial and then on the date of the trial you hand him the Bankruptcy filing papers which stay his proceedings.

So yes--Bankruptcy is a great tool.

[kewlJ]

While this type of profit being suggested is probably not illegal, it still would be subject to the casino taking action for return of the amounts that were "overpaid". As to the issue of Bankruptcy, it is a useful and valuable financial tool. We use it not just to avoid debt but to avoid lengthy and costly litigation on legitimate questions of fact. Also, I have to say, it provides great pleasure when some hot shot attorney thinks he has you by the balls and you let the opponent run up high legal fees preparing for trial and then on the date of the trial you hand him the Bankruptcy filing papers which stay his proceedings.

So yes--Bankruptcy is a great tool.

With all due respect Mr. Attorney, this isn't about bankruptcy. I don't want to side track into a discussion about bankruptcy. This is about receiving money that you are not entitled to and doesn't belong to you and doing so knowingly. And doing so repeatedly for years!

[kewlJ]

No one else wants to weigh in on this? Slingshot, you seem a reasonable man to me. Do you think this is a fair way to "win" money from the casino? I wish Alan were here. I'd like to hear his take. Hey where is our casino industry lover/ supporter Bob21? I wonder what he thinks about this?

Axelwolf and Mickeycrimm, you two are not going to weigh in? There is actually a reason that Axelwolf was Robs first choice to reveal this to. Singer thinks Axel is probably just as unsavory, with an "anything goes" attitude. Axel, was Rob right?

People might think I am being too damn judgmental here, but here's the thing. Legitimate AP's can only win if we are able to get a fair game. If the casino industry is going to cheat, rigged shuffle machines, short decks, rigged slot and video poker machines we can't win. And we won't tolerate cheating from the casino industry. Are we then to say but it is acceptable from the players?

If the attitude is anything goes because it is a casino, then the whole system breaks down. (I know people like Monet will say it already has).

[AxelWolf]

No one else wants to weigh in on this? Slingshot, you seem a reasonable man to me. Do you think this is a fair way to "win" money from the casino? I wish Alan were here. I'd like to hear his take. Hey where is our casino industry lover/ supporter Bob21? I wonder what he thinks about this?

Axelwolf and Mickeycrimm, you two are not going to weigh in? There is actually a reason that Axelwolf was Robs first choice to reveal this to. Singer thinks Axel is probably just as unsavory, with an "anything goes" attitude. Axel, was Rob right?

People might think I am being too damn judgmental here, but here's the thing. Legitimate AP's can only win if we are able to get a fair game. If the casino industry is going to cheat, rigged shuffle machines, short decks, rigged slot and video poker machines we can't win. And we won't tolerate cheating from the casino industry. Are we then to say but it is acceptable from the players?

If the attitude is anything goes because it is a casino, then the whole system breaks down. (I know people like Monet will say it already has).

Dude, or whatever Some of us get busy and don't have time to monitor the forums 24/7, even with Mobil technology. I never had a sugar, dead parents, a trust fund or any real safety nets.

I got up at 5:AM Tuesday took a flight drove and played all day until about 11 at night. I was so tired I didn't even want to drive 30 more minutes to get a hotel so I just pulled off and slept for 5 hours in the car with the engine running, fortunately, It was a nice comfortable with lots of room . Then drove and played all day, I just got back to Vegas a little while ago. Yes over many years I have been able to rack up some posts on WOV. Many of those posts are short and many were done while I was raping online casinos on multiple computers using auto spin until I had to make my picks on bonus rounds. So, had lots of time to fuck about online doing whatever I pleased. That's the only reason I ever started posting on WOV(looking for information on a site I felt was gaffed(and I was right on the money). Before that, I had very few posts on any forums. And of course, I don't let the forums get to me and fuck with my head like some people do. 99% positive aspects have come from the forums for me.

I haven't kept up with all the treads you and others started about this. I have no idea whats going on at this point or even if Rob explained what it was to the forum.

To answer your question, I will do anything in a casino I think is legal, and, without any moral hesitation. I would have been all over the double up bug play had I found it. I have been on machines with bugs, however, they were normally only on a select few machines at a time. I have probably done some stuff in the past that may not have been legal. From my understanding, even in some states it's illegal to use other peoples players cards.

Do you think it's ok if someone makes bets for you or you make them for someone else? Have you ever made a side bet with someone, would you? How much would have you bet on the O/U on Rob's dick size? We all have our own lines. If I don't like where sometimes line is set at, I just try to avoid them.

[regnis]

Kewl--do you have more info about Singer's "play" than has otherwise been disclosed here? If so, you may get more response if we are all on the same page. I have no idea still what he may have done.

P.S.--you brought up the BK issue.

I would add that I have no problem with any means of taking $$$ from a casino.

[kewlJ]

Kewl--do you have more info about Singer's "play" than has otherwise been disclosed here? If so, you may get more response if we are all on the same page. I have no idea still what he may have done.

P.S.--you brought up the BK issue.

I would add that I have no problem with any means of taking $$$ from a casino.

I have taken it as far as I am going to Regnis, further than I intended. Perhaps Rob who seems so proud of his actions would like to share more details. If not there are things and names referenced in this thread that you can google for a better understanding.

I am sorry to hear that you have no limitations on "taking" from a casino (because it's a casino). The armed Robberies that occur at Casino Cages from time to time, you have no problem with? To me, this is actually in the same ballpark. Taking and accepting money that does not belong to you. But to each his own.

[Mission146]

Advantage play, cheating, crime....where do you draw the line? Obviously the definition of advantage play is pretty simple. Playing with an advantage. By this definition even the most illegal things like capping bets, marking cards would be an advantage play. But I don't think any reasonable person or AP would consider it so. So where is the line?

Obviously except in the mind of the casino industry, things like card counting or vulturing machines, isn't cheating or illegal. And just as obvious things like marking cards and light wands are cheating and illegal. But what about the grey area in between. With table games things like hole-carding? Not illegal but is it cheating?

On the machine side, like I said, I don't think anyone outside the casino industry would consider vulturing cheating or illegal. And it is pretty clear that using a device like a lightwand or other electronic device to jam or alter the electronics is both cheating and illegal. But again what about the grey area in between?

What if a player discovers a glitch that allows for a higher payout or a payout of jackpot hands at a higher denomination than was actually played and won? Is this a legitimate advantage play? Is it cheating? Is it illegal? I mean, I guess technically the player hasn't done anything illegal. Maybe some legalese thing like knowingly accepting payment you weren't entitled to. I don't know.

One final question. Suppose someone is charged but the government can't make the case and ends up dropping the charges such as the Game King double up case. Was the act still illegal?

I am anxious to hear the views of all my fellow AP's especially you Rob Singer?

As laypeople, we're basically limited to our individual understandings of the law as we read it. If we ask an attorney(s), then we have their understanding of the law in question to go on. It's all, "Best guess," when you're dealing with, "Gray area," unless you have case precedent and some areas may be darker gray than others when it comes to potential legality questions. In any event, what is or is not legal/illegal will often come down to whatever the judge decides his interpretation of the law is if you come up on charges, and even then, there's still the potential for it to be overturned on appeal. So, the law is what the law says, but then interpretations come into play at all levels.

As far as the definition of, "Advantage Play," it's again going to be an interpretation of how you define, "Advantage Play." If it is to be defined as playing with an EV/ER of over 100%, then capping bets and marking cards is certainly that. It's cheating, it's illegal AND it's an advantage play. If you're going to toss in verbiage such as, "By any legal means," to define 'Advantage Play,' then capping and marking are no longer an advantage play.

I fail to see how hole-carding should be construed as cheating because the casino only has something like 10,000 mechanisms that they can use to prevent hole-carding from even being a possibility. If they choose not to use them or train on correct dealing procedures, that's their lookout. If I'm dealing a home poker game and you catch one of my cards that I deal to myself, did you cheat? Every poker player at any level knows or should know he has a responsibility to, "Protect his hand." Violation of etiquette...maybe...cheating, no.

On machines, I would say that the gray area generally doesn't involve the machine directly. Maybe what those Russian guys did, I guess, but I can't think of many situations where any gray area involves the machine directly. Maybe, "Creating," is a gray area...I don't like it and would never do it so I don't have to worry about it. Good enough for me.

To the next question, they couldn't make any charges stick on Nestor and Kane because they didn't do anything to alter the machine itself. They played the machine as it was presented to them, so that would be my answer on that.

[kewlJ]

To the next question, they couldn't make any charges stick on Nestor and Kane because they didn't do anything to alter the machine itself. They played the machine as it was presented to them, so that would be my answer on that.

Thank you for weighing in Mission. Always good to here from you.

I think prosecutors probably didn't do a very good job in the Kane/Nestor case, being a new type of case. I'll bet they would have liked a second crack at it.

So it is my understanding that if the ATM spits out some extra money and you knowingly accept it, that is a crime. Or if money is mistakenly deposited into your account and you knowingly withdraw and keep it. You are taking or accepting money that simply does not belong to you.

Now in this case, we are not talking about an honest mistake. The player is doing something to "trigger" that mistake and then knowingly taking or accepting money that does not belong to him. Even if that something he is doing is not technically "illegal", he is doing something to trigger the action and then accepting money that does not belong to him. How is that not a crime?

So Mission let me peek into your soul. If you were playing a machine hit a jackpot that paid say $100, cashed out and somehow the ticket printed $10,000, you would be ok with that? Now what if you had done something that triggered that mistake, not something illegal, but just a programing glitch. You would be comfortable doing this over and over and over for years? And you would expect no legal ramifications when it was discovered?

[Mission146]

To the next question, they couldn't make any charges stick on Nestor and Kane because they didn't do anything to alter the machine itself. They played the machine as it was presented to them, so that would be my answer on that.

Thank you for weighing in Mission. Always good to here from you.

I think prosecutors probably didn't do a very good job in the Kane/Nestor case, being a new type of case. I'll bet they would have liked a second crack at it.

So it is my understanding that if the ATM spits out some extra money and you knowingly accept it, that is a crime. Or if money is mistakenly deposited into your account and you knowingly withdraw and keep it. You are taking or accepting money that simply does not belong to you.

Now in this case, we are not talking about an honest mistake. The player is doing something to "trigger" that mistake and then knowingly taking or accepting money that does not belong to him. Even if that something he is doing is not technically "illegal", he is doing something to trigger the action and then accepting money that does not belong to him. How is that not a crime?

So Mission let me peek into your soul. If you were playing a machine hit a jackpot that paid say $100, cashed out and somehow the ticket printed $10,000, you would be ok with that? Now what if you had done something that triggered that mistake, not something illegal, but just a programing glitch. You would be comfortable doing this over and over and over for years? And you would expect no legal ramifications when it was discovered?

Thank you, nice to see you too. I'll pop in again before the end of the day, but I've much work to do after this post.

Maybe you could put it on the prosecutors, but I don't even think they got to the level of even bringing charges. It's not like they were charged and a jury acquitted them. I suppose the question of, "Legal or not," is not really answered if you think the prosecutors did an incompetent job. I would say the only absolutely, "Safe," legal gray area is one with case precedent and in the same jurisdiction...but then it's much less of a gray area, really.

I agree on the ATM and the deposit provided it is not an accident on the part of the beneficiary.

I agree that the player is doing something to trigger the mistake and disagree that the player is taking money that does not belong to him. The machine has announced that the player has hit a jackpot, then the casino comes along and pays that jackpot. Funny thing is that play could have lasted for damn near eternity if Kane hadn't gotten lazy with it. The money, and this is just my opinion, belongs to him because the casino is in possession of the money and the casino is willing handing the money over to him. This is a direct person-to-person financial transaction, not something like two hundreds being sticky in an ATM and overdispensing. Now, you have the general notion that, "Machine malfunction voids all pays and plays," but I don't know how well that really applies once you have handed over the money. Also, I would think anything along those lines would be a civil matter between player and casino at that point, so the casino theoretically has the option to sue to try to get its money back.

I would not be okay with that because that event would have nothing to do with how the machine plays. The machine says I am to receive $100, I know I am to receive $100, then the machine prints out a ticket that I know to be erroneous. I could be wrong, but I have almost no doubt that accepting such funds would be illegal. I don't think I would be fine with that sort of programming glitch because what you are talking about doesn't sound like it has anything to do with the actual play of the machine...it's just printing wrong tickets. Like, if you had one where if you cash out at precisely $117.22 it prints a ticket for $1172.20...no way. I would say that there is no legal way of looking at it that entitles me to that extra money.

ADDED: Also, presumably for this reason (or CTR/SAR reasons) many machines are set to, "Lock Up," at any total over a certain amount. I don't know that is true for all machines, but I have personally had it happen a few times. I think the amount in two cases at one casino was anything over $1,500...in another it was two grand.

[kewlJ]

The machine says I am to receive $100, I know I am to receive $100, then the machine prints out a ticket that I know to be erroneous. I could be wrong, but I have almost no doubt that accepting such funds would be illegal.

Ok the $100 ticket/$10,000 wasn't the greatest example. The machine has a paytable. You hit a jackpot say at $1 that pays say 125 credits. That is 125 credits of the denomination that you were playing when you hit ($125). And you know that. If you somehow manipulate the machine to pay you 125 credits of a much higher denomination, say $10 denomination paying $1250, that you were not playing, are you really trying to say that's "ok"?

I mean obviously Rob thinks so. Or does he? If he did, then why wait until statute of limitations has expired?