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Thread: Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

  1. #221
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Bottom line for me is “were Kane and Nestor legally entitled to push the buttons they pushed?” To me the answer is yes.
    I agree, but they were still sleazyballs. I guess you could call them legal sleazyballs. Lol

  2. #222
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    KJ. When you back count and jump in when the count gets good and then jump out when the count gets bad, isn't that theft from the other players EV?
    Oh come on Axel. That's a reach. Answer: NO
    The fact that they don't know you are stealing EV from them makes it ok? Or do ask the players, "hey, thanks for playing and making the deck positive EV for me, I'm about to sit down and steal some of your EV via card counting and when the count gets bad and no longer in my favor I'm going to leave you at the table(a trip to the bathroom) and let you build it back up for me, is that OK? Have you ever thought about how much money you have cost other players? When back counting(sometimes you are watching another table while playing) someone might say you steal from individuals while others steal from the casinos.

    You know its against the casinos rules to count cards and it's unwanted. Why is it ethical and moral to do something you know is unwanted and frowned upon?

    Didn't you say you and your partner used to play on friends cards at various casinos on VP in order to game the system and earn extra free play? According to your views wouldn't that be theft as well?

  3. #223
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    If you hit a 100k royal and the machine suddenly 20 seconds after the fact your screen goes blank and your Royal disappears. Do you think the casino would pay you? They would say malfunctions void all plays and pays.
    Very first thing you should do is take a picture. And while you have your phone out, you dial Bob N. He should be on speed dial. Well, I guess the speed dial thing is more about us blackjack player and the back-roomings and illegal detentions. That occurred more with us, than you machine players it seems. Happening a lot less (at least in Vegas) and let's give credit where credit is due, that is in large part thanks to Bob. I mean don't get me wrong, he gets paid, but where would we be without him.
    Well then you should also thank me, because Bob does.

  4. #224
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Well then you should also thank me, because Bob does.
    for....what? I am not thanking you for anything. You already have a built in unfair advantage over the rest of us.

  5. #225
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Bottom line for me is “were Kane and Nestor legally entitled to push the buttons they pushed?” To me the answer is yes.
    I agree, but they were still sleazyballs. I guess you could call them legal sleazyballs. Lol
    I tend to think they were sleazeballs, but not for what they did, but for how they went about it all, and how acted towards each other, and how they got greedy. They could have had it made. I do think turning a hit they found on a machine they didn't play to get and turning it into a jackpot could be illegal. There is no way I would do that. Not only would I assume it was illegal, it's a really dumb thing to do. The same with using the same hand to create multiple jackpot pays. That was really dumb and anyone had to know that.
    Last edited by AxelWolf; 05-17-2019 at 10:43 AM.

  6. #226
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Well then you should also thank me, because Bob does.
    for....what? I am not thanking you for anything. You already have a built in unfair advantage over the rest of us.
    Next time I talk to him, I will ask him if I can quote him publicly.

  7. #227
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Bottom line for me is “were Kane and Nestor legally entitled to push the buttons they pushed?” To me the answer is yes.
    I agree, but they were still sleazyballs. I guess you could call them legal sleazyballs. Lol
    I tend to think they were sleazeballs, but not for what they did, but for how they went about it all, and how acted towards each other, and how they got greedy. They could have had it made. I do think turning a hit they found on a machine they didn't play to get and turning it into a jackpot could be illegal. There is no way I would do that.
    I think the bit about Kane demanding 50% of Nestor's wins, if true and not taken out of context, is astonishingly greedy and stupid. They should have divided the country in half and gone their separate ways.

  8. #228
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Bottom line for me is “were Kane and Nestor legally entitled to push the buttons they pushed?” To me the answer is yes.
    I agree, but they were still sleazyballs. I guess you could call them legal sleazyballs. Lol
    I tend to think they were sleazeballs, but not for what they did, but for how they went about it all, and how acted towards each other, and how they got greedy. They could have had it made. I do think turning a hit they found on a machine they didn't play to get and turning it into a jackpot could be illegal. There is no way I would do that.
    We’re on the same page. The worst part of it is the way they treated each other. They had it made and got greedy. By the time the law caught up with Nestor, he was taking a whole entourage with him into the casino. Probably half his town knew about it by the time he got caught.

  9. #229
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Personally, I have no issues with the overpays. Not sure how my bank would respond if they overpay me and I cash it, but evidently that falls into a different category of event.

    What I have major issues with is, assuming the story is legit, "Singer" used his Gaming Today column to send thousands of people into negative EV shoals for no good reason. Even worse -- either he cynically abused and manipulated his relationship with Alan Mendelson, completely torpedoing any Mendelson credibility (not that Mr. Mendelson required much assistance there). Or Mendelson was in on the heist, which makes him look even worse.
    You're nonsense is old fake news red....and you're wrong in your assumptions as usual.

    My play strategy was never explained in my GT column, and I didn't know Alan back then.

  10. #230
    Regarding Nestor and Kane: this is all on Kane. He's such an idiot. You NEVER tell a soul about something like this if you want it to last unless you know they're in a good place and you trust them with your life and they are going to help you profit from it. And you would be the most stupid person on earth to claim jackpots like axel described they did above. These guys truly got what they deserved.

    You know, I met with Stephen Paddock just after I completed a win with this at the Mirage around 2005. He recognized me from my GT pic, and he asked about my strategy. In less than 3 minutes I could tell he was a big loser, angry at the casinos, and really not interested in doing much talking. He seemed like he was on something that made him hyper-anxious. All he wanted to do was get to a machine and PLAY! I had stayed long enuf. I told him I had to get home. It is my strong belief that had he ever come across this play, he'd have killed it on his own faster than these two clowns did together. And I believe the majority of people would do the same thing.

  11. #231
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Regarding Nestor and Kane: this is all on Kane. He's such an idiot. You NEVER tell a soul about something like this if you want it to last unless you know they're in a good place and you trust them with your life and they are going to help you profit from it. And you would be the most stupid person on earth to claim jackpots like axel described they did above. These guys truly got what they deserved.

    You know, I met with Stephen Paddock just after I completed a win with this at the Mirage around 2005. He recognized me from my GT pic, and he asked about my strategy. In less than 3 minutes I could tell he was a big loser, angry at the casinos, and really not interested in doing much talking. He seemed like he was on something that made him hyper-anxious. All he wanted to do was get to a machine and PLAY! I had stayed long enuf. I told him I had to get home. It is my strong belief that had he ever come across this play, he'd have killed it on his own faster than these two clowns did together. And I believe the majority of people would do the same thing.
    I was very disappointed and even mad when Anthony Curtis(I think it was him, please correct me if I'm wrong) went on to grab some readership and jump out in front of this story and suggested this guy was an AP. I knew damn well this guy was NOT and AP. He may have been a value player and tried his best to lose less money(there are lots of people who do that), but that's the extent of it.

    Anthony should have done more research before he wrote about it.

  12. #232
    Stephen Paddock died with a 5 million dollar estate. FACT

  13. #233
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    I agree, but they were still sleazyballs. I guess you could call them legal sleazyballs. Lol
    I tend to think they were sleazeballs, but not for what they did, but for how they went about it all, and how acted towards each other, and how they got greedy. They could have had it made. I do think turning a hit they found on a machine they didn't play to get and turning it into a jackpot could be illegal. There is no way I would do that.
    We’re on the same page. The worst part of it is the way they treated each other. They had it made and got greedy. By the time the law caught up with Nestor, he was taking a whole entourage with him into the casino. Probably half his town knew about it by the time he got caught.
    I 100% agree with that entire statement. They should be the poster children for how not to conduct yourself in just about any situation. Its like there could not have been any 2 worst people to have been involved.

    Will there be a Netflix show in the works?

  14. #234
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Stephen Paddock died with a 5 million dollar estate. FACT
    From where?

  15. #235
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Stephen Paddock died with a 5 million dollar estate. FACT
    From where?
    He had like 1.5 million in personal stuff. Home, vehicles, personal property, cash, and of course guns. Then his business interests in rental properties was worth another 3.5 million or so. There was alot of legal wrangling on how to get the money to the victims families.

  16. #236
    Originally Posted by smurgerburger View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    I agree, but they were still sleazyballs. I guess you could call them legal sleazyballs. Lol
    I tend to think they were sleazeballs, but not for what they did, but for how they went about it all, and how acted towards each other, and how they got greedy. They could have had it made. I do think turning a hit they found on a machine they didn't play to get and turning it into a jackpot could be illegal. There is no way I would do that.
    I think the bit about Kane demanding 50% of Nestor's wins, if true and not taken out of context, is astonishingly greedy and stupid. They should have divided the country in half and gone their separate ways.
    Why do you say that? Nestor was a loser. When he was living in Pennsylvania, he was on welfare (public assistance). At least that’s what the article said. What grown 40 year old able body man sits on welfare and can’t find a job? When he was in Vegas, he lost $20,000/yr for several years until he moved back to Pennsylvania to sit on welfare. At least, that’s the picture the article paints of Nestor.

    This is probably why Kane called him up, and offered him this opportunity. He knew Nestor wasn’t doing anything. Kane gave him a proposal: He would revel a play if he got half of Nestor’s winnings. What did Nestor have to lose? This was better than what he was doing, sitting on welfare.

    Obviously, Kane should have never brought Nestor in on this play. He didn’t know it’d backfire on him. And no, I do not believe Nestor contributed anything to finding this play, even though I know that’s Nestor’s story. Nestor is too stupid to bring anything to the table.

    It sounds like once Nestor learned about this play, he decided to go back on his word. So Nestor is the biggest sleazyball. It’s hard to know what to believe with his story. I’m sure Kane’s version is much different than Nestor’s.

  17. #237
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Regarding Nestor and Kane: this is all on Kane. He's such an idiot. You NEVER tell a soul about something like this if you want it to last unless you know they're in a good place and you trust them with your life and they are going to help you profit from it. And you would be the most stupid person on earth to claim jackpots like axel described they did above. These guys truly got what they deserved.

    You know, I met with Stephen Paddock just after I completed a win with this at the Mirage around 2005. He recognized me from my GT pic, and he asked about my strategy. In less than 3 minutes I could tell he was a big loser, angry at the casinos, and really not interested in doing much talking. He seemed like he was on something that made him hyper-anxious. All he wanted to do was get to a machine and PLAY! I had stayed long enuf. I told him I had to get home. It is my strong belief that had he ever come across this play, he'd have killed it on his own faster than these two clowns did together. And I believe the majority of people would do the same thing.
    I was very disappointed and even mad when Anthony Curtis(I think it was him, please correct me if I'm wrong) went on to grab some readership and jump out in front of this story and suggested this guy was an AP. I knew damn well this guy was NOT and AP. He may have been a value player and tried his best to lose less money(there are lots of people who do that), but that's the extent of it.

    Anthony should have done more research before he wrote about it.
    An AP stopping ME to ask questions!?

    I also read something about him being perceived as an AP. I think it was in some police blog or something but they got the info from somewhere. No way this guy was, at least in your sense of the term. I can see how that report would be upsetting to your community though.

  18. #238
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by smurgerburger View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    I tend to think they were sleazeballs, but not for what they did, but for how they went about it all, and how acted towards each other, and how they got greedy. They could have had it made. I do think turning a hit they found on a machine they didn't play to get and turning it into a jackpot could be illegal. There is no way I would do that.
    I think the bit about Kane demanding 50% of Nestor's wins, if true and not taken out of context, is astonishingly greedy and stupid. They should have divided the country in half and gone their separate ways.
    Why do you say that? Nestor was a loser. When he was living in Pennsylvania, he was on welfare (public assistance). At least that’s what the article said. What grown 40 year old able body man sits on welfare and can’t find a job? When he was in Vegas, he lost $20,000/yr for several years until he moved back to Pennsylvania to sit on welfare. At least, that’s the picture the article paints of Nestor.

    This is probably why Kane called him up, and offered him this opportunity. He knew Nestor wasn’t doing anything. Kane gave him a proposal: He would revel a play if he got half of Nestor’s winnings. What did Nestor have to lose? This was better than what he was doing, sitting on welfare.

    Obviously, Kane should have never brought Nestor in on this play. He didn’t know it’d backfire on him. And no, I do not believe Nestor contributed anything to finding this play, even though I know that’s Nestor’s story. Nestor is too stupid to bring anything to the table.

    It sounds like once Nestor learned about this play, he decided to go back on his word. So Nestor is the biggest sleazyball. It’s hard to know what to believe with his story. I’m sure Kane’s version is much different than Nestor’s.
    The Wired story was that he brought Nestor in to help him figure out how to repeat the glitch, not as an act of charity.

    However if for some reason he did feel a charitable obligation toward this one random degenerate gambler he should have just worked his golden goose by himself and given Nestor some free cash on the side.

    Bringing someone in on a play like this, especially a degenerate, when you don't need them at all is horrifically bad strategy.

  19. #239
    Paddock was nothing more than a degenerate, high limit gambler with a lot of money. Nothing else. I see his type in various casinos all day long.

  20. #240
    Originally Posted by smurgerburger View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by smurgerburger View Post

    I think the bit about Kane demanding 50% of Nestor's wins, if true and not taken out of context, is astonishingly greedy and stupid. They should have divided the country in half and gone their separate ways.
    Why do you say that? Nestor was a loser. When he was living in Pennsylvania, he was on welfare (public assistance). At least that’s what the article said. What grown 40 year old able body man sits on welfare and can’t find a job? When he was in Vegas, he lost $20,000/yr for several years until he moved back to Pennsylvania to sit on welfare. At least, that’s the picture the article paints of Nestor.

    This is probably why Kane called him up, and offered him this opportunity. He knew Nestor wasn’t doing anything. Kane gave him a proposal: He would revel a play if he got half of Nestor’s winnings. What did Nestor have to lose? This was better than what he was doing, sitting on welfare.

    Obviously, Kane should have never brought Nestor in on this play. He didn’t know it’d backfire on him. And no, I do not believe Nestor contributed anything to finding this play, even though I know that’s Nestor’s story. Nestor is too stupid to bring anything to the table.

    It sounds like once Nestor learned about this play, he decided to go back on his word. So Nestor is the biggest sleazyball. It’s hard to know what to believe with his story. I’m sure Kane’s version is much different than Nestor’s.
    The Wired story was that he brought Nestor in to help him figure out how to repeat the glitch, not as an act of charity.

    However if for some reason he did feel a charitable obligation toward this one random degenerate gambler he should have just worked his golden goose by himself and given Nestor some free cash on the side.

    Bringing someone in on a play like this, especially a degenerate, when you don't need them at all is horrifically bad strategy.
    I agree. I googled these two guys on the internet and got different slants of this story. What is known is that Nestor agreed to giving 50% of his winnings to Kane. If they were still trying to figure out this play together, it makes no sense that Nestor would have agreed to give Kane 50% and Kane also got to keep all his own winnings.

    The only thing Nestor tries to take credit for is figuring out double up had to be active to make it work. This is the easiest part of the play. That’s why I’m not buying Nestor’s version. I expect Kane had probably already figured out this play when he called Nestor. This is only speculation, but it makes sense. If they figured it out together then it makes NO sense Nestor would have agreed up front to giving Kane 50%.

    The story on wire.com is from Nestor’s side so you have to read between the lines.

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