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Thread: Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

  1. #301
    Mission, Iím with you on this one. I find this story interesting, because, well itís interesting.

    As far as what happened to Nestorís winnings, the article and Nestor are not very clear. I canít tell if his roommate gave it to the government, or if the Meadows got it back, or if Nestor still has it. And the article does give Nestorís roommateís name so the writer should have been able to track him down.

    From the article: ď His roommate, Lavarde, signed over Nestorís money in exchange for avoiding a trial of his own.Ē

    But then the article later says: ď Nestor says the Medadows still has his winnings, and the IRS is chasing him for $239,861.04 in back taxes....Ē

    Whatís the correct version of what happened to Nestorís money? If Nestor gave it back to Meadows as he said, why doesnít he show the IRS he did this so the IRS quits chasing him? Why didnít the writer check with Meadows to see what happened? This shouldnít be up to debate.

    Nestor changes his story so many times itís hard to know what is true. Iím surprised the writer didnít notice all the inconsistencies in Nestorís story.

    As far as Kane just sitting at a casino and playing nonstop winning jackpot after jackpot, itís shocking he was that stupid, but apperantly he was.

    Thanks for engaging me in this discussion. Iím with you, they did nothing wrong. Their only mistake was being so stupid and not having a better plan with getting away with it.

  2. #302
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Clearly, no actor could play Rob. They couldn't capture the magic.

    Sorry I stole that from another reader....but it's the truth.
    Actor David Paymer could play Ron:
    https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001601/...?ref_=nm_ov_ph
    He looks just like Ron. But does he have the depth to play him on the Big Screen? Maybe Danny Devito. Or another Ron...Ron Jeremy!
    Based on the movies I've seen David in, I do think he has the depth to play Ron. David's a very good actor IMHO.

  3. #303
    Mission, a couple more points about this case since I’ve now probably read this article at least 15 times. Each time, I pick up something new I didn’t see the last time.

    First, the writer says they were given the “Prisoner’s Dilemma”, meaning the option to testify against each other for a reduced sentence. When you read the offer both were given, this was no “prisoner’s dilemma”. Any lawyer would have advised them not to take this offer. If one of them would have taken it, they would have had to admitt guilt and had a criminal record, even though they wouldn’t have spent any time in jail. Most people wouldn’t have taken this offer, since they did nothing wrong, or at least nothing the courts would see as wrong. Them not taking this offer had nothing to do with either one carrying about the other person. This was not a “Prisoner’s Dilemma.”

    My other comment is on the double up function. The article said on May 25th, a slot manager at the Fremont had this function turned off because he figured it had something to do with Kane’s frequent wins. Kane knew it was turned off and when he played the game again he could no longer win. If the slot manager figured it without even playing the game, don’t you think Kane would have immediately understood the role double up played? He won when it was on, and couldn’t win when it was off? That’s a pretty easy correlation to understand.

    Nestor’s version is Kane didn’t put it together until he called him that evening and Nestor explained it to him. Come on now. That makes no sense. Nestor is the dumb one of the two, living on welfare.

    There’s a couple other things here and there. I also liked the part where Nestor said they tried to be honest when it first happened but the slot person wanted to pay them anyway. Yeah, right. Lol

  4. #304
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Mission, I’m with you on this one. I find this story interesting, because, well it’s interesting.

    As far as what happened to Nestor’s winnings, the article and Nestor are not very clear. I can’t tell if his roommate gave it to the government, or if the Meadows got it back, or if Nestor still has it. And the article does give Nestor’s roommate’s name so the writer should have been able to track him down.
    Check out this article:

    https://archive.triblive.com/news/ho...r-500000-plus/

    Originally Posted by Triblive
    The dismissal of charges is “disappointing,” says Sean Sullivan, president and general manager of the Meadows Casino in Washington County, where Nestor was accused of taking almost $480,000 in May and June 2009. “My opinion is that there was wrongdoing.”...Sullivan says the Meadows was “made whole” and recovered all of the almost $480,000 he said Nestor got from the casino’s machines. More than 600 local charges against Nestor were dropped in 2011.
    So, regardless of what happened to any other money, the GM of The Meadows (at the time, don't know if he still is) said The Meadows got all of that money back.

    From the article: “ His roommate, Lavarde, signed over Nestor’s money in exchange for avoiding a trial of his own.”

    But then the article later says: “ Nestor says the Medadows still has his winnings, and the IRS is chasing him for $239,861.04 in back taxes....”

    What’s the correct version of what happened to Nestor’s money? If Nestor gave it back to Meadows as he said, why doesn’t he show the IRS he did this so the IRS quits chasing him? Why didn’t the writer check with Meadows to see what happened? This shouldn’t be up to debate.
    I don't know the answer to this other than Meadows said they got the money back. I'm not entirely sure how much Nestor may have won elsewhere, but that tax obligation would be consistent with right about a million bucks in total. I don't know if the article mentioned an exact total that he won in Vegas.

    Nestor changes his story so many times it’s hard to know what is true. I’m surprised the writer didn’t notice all the inconsistencies in Nestor’s story.

    As far as Kane just sitting at a casino and playing nonstop winning jackpot after jackpot, it’s shocking he was that stupid, but apperantly he was.
    I don't know exactly what changed about his story in the WIRED article. We know that he hit several jackpots at casinos other than The Meadows.

    As far as the roommate not talking or being looked into, that may have been a condition of the interview. Like I said, it's hardly unusual for there to be certain conditions when one is giving an exclusive interview.

    Thanks for engaging me in this discussion. I’m with you, they did nothing wrong. Their only mistake was being so stupid and not having a better plan with getting away with it.
    Thank you, it's been a good one!

  5. #305
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Mission, a couple more points about this case since I’ve now probably read this article at least 15 times. Each time, I pick up something new I didn’t see the last time.

    First, the writer says they were given the “Prisoner’s Dilemma”, meaning the option to testify against each other for a reduced sentence. When you read the offer both were given, this was no “prisoner’s dilemma”. Any lawyer would have advised them not to take this offer. If one of them would have taken it, they would have had to admitt guilt and had a criminal record, even though they wouldn’t have spent any time in jail. Most people wouldn’t have taken this offer, since they did nothing wrong, or at least nothing the courts would see as wrong. Them not taking this offer had nothing to do with either one carrying about the other person. This was not a “Prisoner’s Dilemma.”
    I disagree with you on this. They would be taking zero chance of prison time instead of a non-zero chance of prison time. The charges had certainly not been dropped yet, or they wouldn't be discussing a plea deal in the first place. It is pretty clear, however, that the attorneys for both men vehemently believed that the Feds had nothing on them, so that they would refuse the deal makes sense.

    My other comment is on the double up function. The article said on May 25th, a slot manager at the Fremont had this function turned off because he figured it had something to do with Kane’s frequent wins. Kane knew it was turned off and when he played the game again he could no longer win. If the slot manager figured it without even playing the game, don’t you think Kane would have immediately understood the role double up played? He won when it was on, and couldn’t win when it was off? That’s a pretty easy correlation to understand.
    I don't know, but I wouldn't say the Fremont manager, "Figured it out." More likely, he just figured Kane was accumulating so many handpays due to using the double-up feature as intended. Keep in mind that you could theoretically multiply any hand into a handpay (with varying probability) with this feature and that the house edge on the double-up itself is 0% assuming it plays honestly. Kane wasn't using the double-up as intended, so according to the article, he didn't realize that the double-up was critical to the success of the play. Simply, he probably went through the same course of events on a later hand and it just didn't work.

    Nestor’s version is Kane didn’t put it together until he called him that evening and Nestor explained it to him. Come on now. That makes no sense. Nestor is the dumb one of the two, living on welfare.
    I don't know that necessarily makes him dumb. After all, Kane was the first one of the two to get caught. More than that, if you believe Nestor's version of events (and we certainly haven't heard Kane's because I haven't seen anywhere where he has talked) Nestor was instrumental in helping Kane narrow down the sequence of events that cause the glitch in the first place.

    And, again, Kane probably called Nestor simply agitated that the play was no longer working, Nestor may have asked something like, "What happened?" Then Kane detailed the series of events, "Well, I hit a handpay like usual, then the Manager came up because I'd hit so many there and turned off the double-up function. He must have figured I had been doubling winning hands into handpays or something. After that, I hit a few more hands that we would use and it wasn't work---oh, shit!" Either that, or maybe Kane finished the sentence and Nestor just said, "Double up must need to be turned on for the buttons to work."

    I don't think Nestor is suggesting that the two of them had to spend hours racking their brains to figure it out.

    There’s a couple other things here and there. I also liked the part where Nestor said they tried to be honest when it first happened but the slot person wanted to pay them anyway. Yeah, right. Lol
    Nestor was relaying what Kane said happened in that part. Nestor was not present when the first jackpot was hit.

  6. #306
    Also, this article:

    https://www.post-gazette.com/local/s...s/200910070210

    States that he was on Social Security Disability rather than just straight welfare, so who knows? Maybe both? I obviously have no idea.

    Also:

    Originally Posted by Post Gazette
    Mr. Toprani said he plans to explore options to seize money and bank accounts owned by the men.

  7. #307
    Here is an article about one of the two guys in PA (other than Nestor himself):

    https://archive.triblive.com/news/de...meadows-theft/

    In that article, the only potentially illegal thing the guy's lawyer said he did was signing for the jackpots (and that only true if the jackpots themselves were illegal). That's Patrick Loushil:

    AP's will like what his lawyer said, also from the article:

    Originally Posted by Attorney Chris Blackwell:
    “It’s interesting that you have a machine designed to take money off us, and when it doesn’t work that way, suddenly someone must have committed a crime,”
    It's unsurprising that The Meadows is pretty strict about he who pushes the button gets the W-2G now.

  8. #308
    It's interesting to me is that IGT apparently has no liability to the casinos for losses due to the glitch. I guess they put a clause in their sales contracts absolving them of such responsibility.

  9. #309
    Mission, thanks for the additional articles. They helped and cleared up the situation at the Meadows. But it still doesn’t explain why the IRS is chasing Nestor for $239,000. If Nestor won additional money in Vegas or other casinos, then he should have the money to pay the IRS. This part still isn’t adding up.

    I probably shouldn’t have said Nestor was changing his story. It’s more that his story is inconsistent. The timeline still doesn’t make much sense.

    Nestor says he flew to Vegas and helped Kane come up with the bottoms to press to activate this play. I would think Kane would have figured this out already. Nestor makes it sound like Kane got lucky one time with this bug and then called him. If that’s the case then why does Nestor only take credit for figuring out the double up feature? From the article you can tell Nestor is trying to justify his actions of not paying Kane what he agreed he’d do.

    The other thing that didn’t make sense is why Nestor flew home the first time. This was still a viable play at the Fremont. Kane made $100,000 in about a month at the Fremont and this was supposedly before he understood the double up feature. $100,000 in a month isn’t shabby money.

    I expect Kane isn’t talking because his lawyers told him not to. Kane still has his money and anything he says could backfire on him. I wonder if the stature of limitations is the same for criminal cases as with civil cases. I’m unclear if Kane is out the woods on this.

    Also, I still think the Golden King slot machine Kane bought for his house played a role. It’s not just the machine but he also had access to the technicians that serviced it. It didn’t pay jackpots but it probably gave him some idea how it worked.
    Last edited by Bob21; Yesterday at 03:51 PM.

  10. #310
    I mean who gives a ------.
    My best friend showed me how to deflect coins up against the bar machines and that lasted for a long time before they fixed those machines.
    We only did this in Vegas and Reno but I heard stories of teams using this tactic all over the country.
    We were literally reaching into the hopper... talk about Positive EV!
    We figured out how to use a coin to deflect the other coins so our fingers didn't get banged up.
    It also helped if we ran into a problem since we had no device.
    My friend got back roomed about it but nothing came of it whatsoever and I never had any heat or problems.
    Glitches are always happening all the time but finding them is not so easy.
    I've had mysterious large amounts of Free Play added to my cards at times.
    I am not one of those types afraid to take it and I sure as heck am not going to the club asking why this amount is on my card.

  11. #311
    The home machine and technicians had nothing to do with Kane finding the glitch. If it did, he'd have never told Nestor about it and the technicians would be all over this play.

    I wouldn't be surprised if an IGT programmer programmed the malicious code in intentionally. I've worked with many software engineers in my earlier career, and they all have this ego that makes them program their own little stamp of varying sorts into every code they write.

    I was sent a question regarding having to constantly push NO every time you get a winner that you will not double-up on. Yes it's bothersome, but that's a very small price to pay. And you can't hit "Don't Ask This Again" because you do not want your hand to tally up your winning credits on any hand you want to up the denomination on without giving you the opportunity to go for it. That's when a hand is REALLY over.

  12. #312
    One more comment. About Kane getting caught first. He had a couple months head start on burning this play down. If you look at total play time, Nestor probably burned it down quicker in Pennsylvania, than Kane did in Vegas. Regardless, both of them didn’t understand how to preserve a play like this. I think it’s unfair to say Kane got caught first since he had a two month head start. Lol

  13. #313
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    YOU PEOPLE ARE BEING TROLLED!! WISE UP!!!
    ^ This
    #FreeTyde

  14. #314
    Based on your description of the bug it feels too "natural" to be deliberately inserted into the code.

    An unnatural bug would be something like the Konami code from video games, where you have to input a long sequence of inputs that has no logical consequence or meaning.

    In this case you can immediately "get" why the bug works in terms of operational logic - the DU question leaves the hand unresolved but also leaves you with no meaningful inputs, *except* you can cancel out of the question without answering it by inserting a bill because the whole "if bill is inserted, change machine state to free" loop was not blocked off during the DU? state. From there you pick the new game and cash out which apparently inititiates the "resolve hand and settle up" loop.

    If it's malicious it's rather elegantly so. A blatantly malicious bug would be something like hitting a random string of 100 hold button presses and the machine then gives you a royal. Something that would never occur due to a breakdown in program flow.

  15. #315
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    YOU PEOPLE ARE BEING TROLLED!! WISE UP!!!
    ^ This
    RS, I’m not interested in the Rob Singer part of it. I am truelly fascinated by the actual case itself with Kane and Nestor. It’s an interesting case on its own merits. How did these two bozos figure this out? I’m just trying to put their story together, and appreciate Mission engaging with me on this. I have no stake in the game. I’m just trying to understand it.

  16. #316
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    YOU PEOPLE ARE BEING TROLLED!! WISE UP!!!
    ^ This
    RS, Iím not interested in the Rob Singer part of it. I am truelly fascinated by the actual case itself with Kane and Nestor. Itís an interesting case on its own merits. How did these two bozos figure this out? Iím just trying to put their story together, and appreciate Mission engaging with me on this. I have no stake in the game. Iím just trying to understand it.
    We all can see that Bob. But there's always ignorant people with an agenda. These particular two are serial haters, and no one--not even other AP's--can be allowed not to hate.

  17. #317
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post

    ^ This
    RS, Iím not interested in the Rob Singer part of it. I am truelly fascinated by the actual case itself with Kane and Nestor. Itís an interesting case on its own merits. How did these two bozos figure this out? Iím just trying to put their story together, and appreciate Mission engaging with me on this. I have no stake in the game. Iím just trying to understand it.
    We all can see that Bob. But there's always ignorant people with an agenda. These particular two are serial haters, and no one--not even other AP's--can be allowed not to hate.
    Rob, YOU are calling someone else a "hater"? Funny shit! You have gone far out of your way to make so many people dislike you, or the persona that you claim is not really anything like you. Personal, nasty attacks, unprecedented on gambling forums, that in fact had nothing to do with gambling or and related topic or discussions. You are now going to say "oh well these people just don't like me". Of course we don't like you. THAT is what you created and INTENDED to create.

    Now that said, I am able to separate the two things, whether I like you and/or find you credible. And the fact is that throughout your existence here and apparently else where dating 20 years, almost everything you said has been proven not true. You just have no credibility. You chose to throw that away over the past decades. And you are still doing it today with the doubling down of your claims about your progressive wagering/stop limit results, which remain impossible as you have stated the claim.

    So you come along with this claim, pretty fantastic and are surprised that people doubt you based on your long history of trolling and being proven to be lying? I know you think you have proven this with by getting Axel and Mickey to vouch for you and jump on the Singer band wagon, but you haven't. AS much as everyone here respects Axel and mickey, all they have really done is confirm that the math works, meaning it is possible. Secondly they believe that you are telling the truth because of info they believe only someone executing the play would know, but the fact is you could have come into that knowledge by several means, including discovering for yourself after the story broke, by finding a machine at some out of the way location that still had this capability.

    When pressed neither Axel nor Mickey can say with certainty that you did what you claim. So we are back to your credibility and you long ago chose to throw that away. I am hoping this interview at GWAE comes about as maybe you can and will reveal somethings that makes it more credible. In the absence of that, while I don't demand or ask for proof, I would need to see something to convince me personally, just for my own satisfaction, because your credibility just isn't doing it. And I think that is the what JBJB and RS_ are saying. And btw, there are a few more legit AP's that are saying the same thing, they just are not saying it publicly.

  18. #318
    It is what it is kew, and these people hate me because they're jealous of me. No one can be 100% certain of what anybody says on forums, and yes, before you blow your top again, that includes you.

    Axel and mickey don't need you to be explaining what they think or why they think it. I chose them to talk to because I've read their postings for a long time, and of all the people here, I could easily see that they would both understand what I was saying, and could readily determine if what I was saying made sense. In other words, I believed they know how to make as accurate a gambling story assessment as possible. You'd never be able to do that, given your comparative limited level of gambling experience.

    You're missing important aspects of this because you want to be blinded. Tell me--of all the procedural expertise posted about operating this play to perfection, who is it that gives a solid hands-on explanation at every turn, every single time, without hesitation? jbjb ? That greatly experienced gambler who calls himself "RS__"?

    These are things axel and mickey use as their barometers, and it's all ANYBODY has in a case like this. If you believe there's some other bit of info needed that hasn't been given by me yet, just ask, and stop making a blathering fool of yourself by your continual "Singer's a bad guy who acts like a ferocious brute on forums, and he has a play strategy no AP believes works, and he doesn't like homos, and he's friends with Alan, and on and on and on" as some sort of twisted reasoning why I didn't make this play work for the time I did. Neither mickey or axel believe in my play strategy, yet the two toughest AP's on the forum don't simply write off anything I've explained. If you can't accept these things then you're the biggest hypocrite here.

    I can tell how much this all bothers you kew. You're like that hater weirdo redietz. He waits for me to post, then he jumps in with something negative with no rationale.

    Get over it. It's not gonna change anyone's life to believe this or not, and there's still 24 hours in a day.

  19. #319
    I was contacted last night by a media source that I don't know anyone at, and they're asking to interview me about this. They also asked that I don't say any more about the play, although I believe I've said everything I remember already.

    If I decide to do this, it'll be because I won't be "judged" by haters with an agenda, or by people who can't separate protective actions taken by me up until I got to this point, from the actual facts about how and why I waited 10 years to release this.

    I'm in the process right now of checking with multiple casinos to see if they can get me play and W2G issuance records from 2004-2009. I have no idea if this is still possible, but I don't think there's any other method of supporting such a secretive play. These records will show comparatively small losses when playing with a card (exception: Venetian) and a record of a bunch of W2G's--with quite a few large ones. I'm willing to agree that even something like this, if available, won't silence critics, but that's not my goal anyway. What I want to do is show how it was me who found this play first, by research and trial & error, and not by being in some drunken stupor stumbling across it by accident as Wired suggests Kane did years later.

    What'll be the end result? Since the statutes are spent, I expect to get banned from casinos maybe? But that's really irrelevant since the winnings have already been secured and my casino days are just about closed out anyway.

    At any rate, ultimate satisfaction steps into play here. I've been battling with AP's for 20 years over their play and my play methods--much of it as a mandatory cover for what I was really doing. OF COURSE I know what AP's say they do has validity behind it. My original effort failed, so I came back in 2000 with a rage and a grudge....and a very successful Singer Play Strategy--but for only 4 years. What I did next made all my gambling ups and downs and arguing and future battles--real or not--completely worth it. Ten times over.

    You don't want to believe it because it hurts too much to see the villainous "Rob Singer" close out his video poker career like this? As I said, so be it. But those without built-in biases against me....those who are actually looking at what I've presented in its purest form ever (who's the guy that kept telling everyone the Wired article had the incorrect sequence of steps?) will able to deduce this big and important story for what it really is.

    History will be the judge.
    Last edited by Rob.Singer; Today at 04:00 AM.

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