Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

[kewlJ]

OK, in fairness, I have now confirmed that the instructions in the articlue for executing this play were incorrect and the author knew that they were incorrect. (journalism??? These guys are so honest. Alan would be proud)

Mickey and Axelwolf seem certain that Singer knows what the proper instructions or sequence was. I accept that. My only question is did he know it at the time or is this information he came into after the fact, perhaps long after the fact? There are numerous ways to now have gained this knowledge after the fact, especially after this story became public years ago.

I just do not accept at Singer's word that he knew this information at the time and executed this play to the tune of 3 million dollars for 6 years. And if that seems sour to Rob or anyone else....so be it. I put a lot of stock in a person's credibility and Singer has lied repeatedly about almost everything. I have listed the important stuff twice. Plus he has lied all sorts of completely irrelevant little things. So that's where I am at.

I also want to quote and second this post by Mission, because I have been saying this for days now. Singer's explanation that this was all a big deflect to protect this play just doesn't work. All he had to do to protect this play was say nothing. And if you were to take Singer at face value now (which I am unwilling to do) there is also the fact that he intentionally mislead players by insisting his progressive betting/stop limits/special plays strategy (which has nothing to do with this latest revelation) was a winning strategy, when it was and continues to be mathematically impossible. And in fact he continues to double down even today, that he successfully played that strategy and made a lot of money, when again it is mathematically impossible.

Bottom line there is just a super long history of bullshit and I am not ready to take this guys word on anything.

Assuming everything that you are saying is true, let me then ask you this: Why run around for years advocating and defending what essentially amounts to a video poker betting system other than for bragging rights? That's totally irresponsible and sets people up to believe in a system that has a mathematical expectation of losing. How many people could have lost how much money thinking they could win just by adopting a system that varies bets and gradually progresses upward in denomination?

They were calling what you were saying bunk because, without the double-up glitch, it is bunk. I just don't understand why talk about it at all if you either could not or would not come out with what the play actually is. There's no need whatsoever for diversion if you just don't say anything at all about it.

I also still have a problem with the play itself whether Singer executed it or not. Manipulating a machine to pay money on a win at a level you were not playing and did not win on is wrong. It's dishonest. It's cheating. And it is illegal. People here seem to want to justify this by saying Kane and Nestor weren't convicted. Well OJ wasn't convicted of murder but he still did it and it's still wrong and a crime.

Others want to say all they did was push buttons and that's not illegal. Pushing buttons on a computer is also not illegal, but doing so to hack into Bank of American and steal information or money IS. And that is pretty good comparison. Bottom line is wrong is wrong justifying it because you think it is advantage play, because it's the casino industry or just because AP's want the money, doesn't make it right. Manipulating a machine to pay money at a level you didn't win is WRONG. Accepting that money is WRONG. You guys can pretend you don't know the difference between right or wrong, but you are lying. You are choosing not to care. That is basically what criminals do.

So Y'all can celebrate this kind of thing (whether Singer is involved or not) but this isn't advantage play to me. Advantage play to me is winning fairly, honestly, within the rules, within the law. Things like card counting, or playing 100+ payback. Using MATH and legal means to win. And here is the big key for those that want to pretend not to know the difference: If you are spending 10 years hiding out, constantly moving around, looking over your shoulder, waiting for the statute of limitations to expire, then there is something wrong. You just aren't being honest that you did nothing wrong.

I think I have made my feeling known and I am aware there are many that disagree, so I won't comment further.

[jbjb]

"Manipulating a machine to pay money on a win at a level you were not playing and did not win on is wrong. It's dishonest. It's cheating. And it is illegal."

It's straight up theft and possible embezzlement.

[kewlJ]

"Manipulating a machine to pay money on a win at a level you were not playing and did not win on is wrong. It's dishonest. It's cheating. And it is illegal."

It's straight up theft and possible embezzlement.

EXACTLY! And thank you jbjb. Good to know there are a few who still recognize right and wrong and aren't blinded by the pursuit of money.

It seems the only area that you and I have any disagreement on his hole-carding, which I am aware is your bread and butter. And I feel I need to address that as well, because I think I may have muddled my position on that a bit calling it a "grey area".

Hole carding is not cheating, with the possible except of using a device like a small mirror, or possibly a partner strategically placed to see the cards that the normal player wouldn't/couldn't. That partner scenario is a real grey area.

But regular holecarding is not illegal and nor cheating.

That said, I did some hole-carding for about 3 months when I first moved to Vegas. Blackjack not the carnival games you and others are having so much success with today. I was to the point that I had lists and names of weak dealers who flashed and knew their schedules. It ended for me when I set my alarm for 3am, so I could get to Circus Circus by 4am for the start of a particular dealer's shift. I just said "what the fuck am I doing?"

Not illegal. Not cheating. But I just don't care to win that way. That is about the best I can explain it. I feel good about what I do. Winning completely legal, fairly honestly, playing within the rules of the game. I just didn't have that with hole-carding. Just me.

So take no offense on my position. I can't say enough that it is not illegal. Not cheating. And as such I guess not even really a grey area....for anyone but me. And I don't think less of anyone that engages in it. Probably my closest online networking AP has basically switched over to hole-carding for most of the past 4-5 years as his top thing.

[AxelWolf]

AGAIN, MORE PEOPLE COMMENTING ON WHAT I THINK(KJ now). Show me where I commented on the button pushing sequence and if rob knew/knows that? How could I? I don't even know if whats been printed and reported is accurate. Until I do it myself or see it in action, I won't ever know. If I find a machine I think is vulnerable to this, I would use whatever formula Rob suggests. Or, I would call someone I know that probably knows more about this than anyone else I know. I don't actively look for this I have on occasion when I was at a location I thought it might still be possible. I have no problem unfairly taking money from casinos since they will and have done it to me on legit AP. They steal millions from their players each year. Just go look at unclaimed tickets. Then do some research about casinos stiffing players on promotions and their own gaffed machines.

[kewlJ]

I have no problem unfairly taking money from casinos since they will and have done it to me on legit AP. They steal millions from their players each year. Just go look at unclaimed tickets. Then do some research about casinos stiffing players on promotions and their own gaffed machines.

All I can do is laugh at this Axelwolf. Wrong is wrong period. The fact that someone else (the casino industry) does wrong, can NEVER make you doing wrong into a right.

Manipulating a machine into paying money that you did not win or did not win at the level (denomination) you are getting paid is wrong. You can justify it. You can be ok with it. But it is still wrong.

[AxelWolf]

I have no problem unfairly taking money from casinos since they will and have done it to me on legit AP. They steal millions from their players each year. Just go look at unclaimed tickets. Then do some research about casinos stiffing players on promotions and their own gaffed machines.

All I can do is laugh at this Axelwolf. Wrong is wrong period. The fact that someone else (the casino industry) does wrong, can NEVER make you doing wrong into a right.

Manipulating a machine into paying money that you did not win or did not win at the level (denomination) you are getting paid is wrong. You can justify it. You can be ok with it. But it is still wrong.

I don't disagree with that. I'm just okay with it. Now please show me where I commented on Robs button pushing sequence?

[Rob.Singer]

Here are the not so simple facts for most people, and it will be my last post on the subject unless there are any valid questions.

--I discovered the flaw by looking for it or something like it, brought on by a motivation and vengeance for losing as an AP previously. I spent four years in doing so. I started with the question "When is a video poker hand over--but not REALLY over--and I went from there. Double up obviously. Four years in, I sat staring at many machines as the double up option asked if I wanted to double my credits or not as I pushed buttons, all to no avail. Then I saw it--the bill feeder light was on when it never is after the deal button is pushed and until the hand is completely over. So I pushed in a 20, and the surrealism began.

I am wondering why winning 375k with the other system would be looked at as losing as an AP prior to discovering the double up?

No, I lost for 6 years prior to starting to play my strategy. The first year playing my strategy was when I began searching for something like this, unbeknownst that this particular play wasn't even available until 2002.

I understand my $10k goal on avg. might be lower than most would pursue. But at the time no one knew if it were illegal, prosecutable, or what, and I'm a cautious person. I know the chances of being caught were slim, but you always feel the heat when you're doing this regardless.

[Rob.Singer]

Have we established that this could work without triggering a handpay, though? While not explicitly stated, anything I have ever read has at least seemed to imply that the handpay aspect is an essential component.

Yes, it does work on any winning hand. Instead of a hand pay, credits are added.

[Mission146]

Can someone show me the link to the court documents in which Kane and/or Nestor were charged with straight up theft and/or possible embezzlement? No? Oh, because those charges were never a part of the underlying subject? Okay then.

That's not even close to what embezzlement means, unless one or both of them were employees of the casinos and/or had money entrusted to them by the casinos for casino purposes.

Basically, there were two charges that the prosecutors were even attempting to try. I know one was wire fraud and forget the other, but it's in that article somewhere. One of the charges they themselves decided they had absolutely nothing and the other of the two charges would have been a serious stretch. You guys can argue all you want about whether or not something should be a crime, and I'll have no part of that, but if the federal prosecutors had thought they could make any possibly applicable federal charges stick, then they would have went with them.

Depending on the letter of the law, there are perhaps states/localities in which the described action would be a crime, or at least, made to fit the definition of one of their crimes well enough. This action could also become a crime, (at any level) but even if it had, you can't retroact it to past events prior to the crime becoming a law.

(All Quotes below are from KewlJ)

Mickey and Axelwolf seem certain that Singer knows what the proper instructions or sequence was. I accept that. My only question is did he know it at the time or is this information he came into after the fact, perhaps long after the fact? There are numerous ways to now have gained this knowledge after the fact, especially after this story became public years ago.

Who cares when he figured it out or if he did at all? It's not going to change my checking account balance to know for sure whether he knew it at the time or not. Any accusations that he did not (even if based on past posting history) are just accusations that can not be proven anyway. As they say, "You can't prove a negative."

I also want to quote and second this post by Mission, because I have been saying this for days now. Singer's explanation that this was all a big deflect to protect this play just doesn't work. All he had to do to protect this play was say nothing. And if you were to take Singer at face value now (which I am unwilling to do) there is also the fact that he intentionally mislead players by insisting his progressive betting/stop limits/special plays strategy (which has nothing to do with this latest revelation) was a winning strategy, when it was and continues to be mathematically impossible. And in fact he continues to double down even today, that he successfully played that strategy and made a lot of money, when again it is mathematically impossible.

It's really not my intention to be a proxy for you guys arguing with each other. Although, I will say the fact that each of you have agreed with me on different points probably says something.

I also still have a problem with the play itself whether Singer executed it or not. Manipulating a machine to pay money on a win at a level you were not playing and did not win on is wrong. It's dishonest. It's cheating. And it is illegal. People here seem to want to justify this by saying Kane and Nestor weren't convicted. Well OJ wasn't convicted of murder but he still did it and it's still wrong and a crime.

The jury in the OJ case did not decide that murder is not a crime, they decided that OJ did not commit murder. Pretty big difference.

Wrong-Opinion (I probably kind of agree, but that wouldn't stop me in this case. I'll reevaluate my moral integrity when I'm sitting on a couple million. Also, I probably would not hit a small independent place.) .

Dishonest-Opinion (What's dishonest? Who are you lying to? Shit, Kane even tried to tell the attendant the first time and the attendant just laughed it off. The machine is saying, "Jackpot," not me.)

Illegal-HUGE OPINION (How? Demonstrate illegal. They couldn't charge them with anything at the Federal level, you don't think they would have if they had something?)

Also, there is a difference between civil legality and criminal legality. Technically, a casino could bring a case against a patron for whatever it wants to and vice-a-versa. That case might be dismissed for any number of reasons, (including not fitting the statute they are bringing the case under) but you can file a case claiming whatever you want to. Might civil law have been violated on this one? Maybe, but if any casinos sued either of the guys civilly (and I'm not saying none did) I haven't seen it.

Others want to say all they did was push buttons and that's not illegal. Pushing buttons on a computer is also not illegal, but doing so to hack into Bank of American and steal information or money IS. And that is pretty good comparison. Bottom line is wrong is wrong justifying it because you think it is advantage play, because it's the casino industry or just because AP's want the money, doesn't make it right. Manipulating a machine to pay money at a level you didn't win is WRONG. Accepting that money is WRONG. You guys can pretend you don't know the difference between right or wrong, but you are lying. You are choosing not to care. That is basically what criminals do.

It would be a good comparison if there were case laws to show that both of those things are crimes. I think you'll find a case on bank computer hacking without looking particularly hard.

Wrong-Again, opinion. I will definitely stipulate, "Unfair," still haven't decided if I go as far as wrong. Again, wouldn't stop me in this case. Too much money, cost/benefit analysis looks awesome.

CELEBRATE-I'm not celebrating anything. I didn't make a dime off of those guys doing that, what do I have to celebrate?

[Rob.Singer]

"Manipulating a machine to pay money on a win at a level you were not playing and did not win on is wrong. It's dishonest. It's cheating. And it is illegal."

It's straight up theft and possible embezzlement.

The US Govt doesn't see it your way or else the charges wouldn't have been dropped.

[Mission146]

Yes, it does work on any winning hand. Instead of a hand pay, credits are added.

Really!? Fuck taking hand pays, then. Not one. Play pennies or nickels on DDB and switch that bitch to quarters for Quads, SF's or Royals...but that's just me. I know some machines lock up at $1,000 though, so it's a handpay but not a taxable, so I would probably switch my royals to dimes just in case. Still making an absolute killing just on the quads and I'd blend in as much as anyone ever could.

[kewlJ]

Now please show me where I commented on Robs button pushing sequence?

I guess YOU didn't reference it in those words. YOU said Rob had information that only someone involved with the play would have.

Mickey said Rob knew the sequence or that the listed sequence was wrong and that only someone who played would know.

I guess I assumed the information you were referring to was the same as what Mickey was saying.

Ok? But to be honest I feel like you are playing the "technicality" game here. Whether I worded it wrong or not you and Mickey have both basically state that Rob had information that you believe makes him credible. And that is exactly why he picked you. I mean both of you are guys just like myself that Rob has bashed and attacked for years. And now he needs credibility has a way to use you to get it and has made all nicey-nice with both of you.

Bottom line, Rob may have information that only someone executing the play would have. That doesn't mean he executed the play for 6 years. And it doesn't mean he had that information back then. This information could have come to him recently through numerous sources after the story broke.

I asked you point blank, both you and Mickey if you can say with 100% certainty that Rob knew of this play and played it for 6 years and made 3 million dollars. I believe you both said "no". Correct me if I am wrong.

So you find him credible and whether you realize it or not are giving him credibility, which is what he was after. I do not. Without even knowing the specifics, I know Rob's history. And he has lied and been caught lying hundreds...hundreds...and that is no exaggeration….of times. I am not a person who demands proof and the guys that normally do on this forum have strangely gone silent. But based on Rob's credibility, a long history of lying, I don't find him credible and that is my right, Just as it is every single persons right to decide who is credible and who is not.

Now I have a lunch date and then work. Have a great day Axel. Win lots of money. Draw boundaries. Don't end up in jail or looking over your shoulder for the next 10 years.

[kewlJ]

Bottom line, Rob may have information that only someone executing the play would have. That doesn't mean he executed the play for 6 years. And it doesn't mean he had that information back then. This information could have come to him recently through numerous sources after the story broke.
.

One very important thing that I forgot to say concerning this. Rob could have even figured this out for himself AFTER the story broke, by locating machines where this was still possible. He seems to travel around to some smaller out of the way places including Indian Casinos that may have been slow to react. So him having this information does NOT mean that he had it in 2003 (6 years before Kane and Nestor were busted), nor that he made 6 million dollars.

And just for fun: my mention of Indian Casinos was just for you Rob. Indian Casinos would not have to abide by the statute of limitations that Arizona, Nevada or the Federal Government set. So you might want to go back in hiding, looking over your shoulder.

[Rob.Singer]

OK, in fairness, I have now confirmed that the instructions in the articlue for executing this play were incorrect and the author knew that they were incorrect. (journalism??? These guys are so honest. Alan would be proud)

Mickey and Axelwolf seem certain that Singer knows what the proper instructions or sequence was. I accept that. My only question is did he know it at the time or is this information he came into after the fact, perhaps long after the fact? There are numerous ways to now have gained this knowledge after the fact, especially after this story became public years ago.

I just do not accept at Singer's word that he knew this information at the time and executed this play to the tune of 3 million dollars for 6 years. And if that seems sour to Rob or anyone else....so be it. I put a lot of stock in a person's credibility and Singer has lied repeatedly about almost everything. I have listed the important stuff twice. Plus he has lied all sorts of completely irrelevant little things. So that's where I am at.

I also want to quote and second this post by Mission, because I have been saying this for days now. Singer's explanation that this was all a big deflect to protect this play just doesn't work. All he had to do to protect this play was say nothing. And if you were to take Singer at face value now (which I am unwilling to do) there is also the fact that he intentionally mislead players by insisting his progressive betting/stop limits/special plays strategy (which has nothing to do with this latest revelation) was a winning strategy, when it was and continues to be mathematically impossible. And in fact he continues to double down even today, that he successfully played that strategy and made a lot of money, when again it is mathematically impossible.

Bottom line there is just a super long history of bullshit and I am not ready to take this guys word on anything.

Assuming everything that you are saying is true, let me then ask you this: Why run around for years advocating and defending what essentially amounts to a video poker betting system other than for bragging rights? That's totally irresponsible and sets people up to believe in a system that has a mathematical expectation of losing. How many people could have lost how much money thinking they could win just by adopting a system that varies bets and gradually progresses upward in denomination?

They were calling what you were saying bunk because, without the double-up glitch, it is bunk. I just don't understand why talk about it at all if you either could not or would not come out with what the play actually is. There's no need whatsoever for diversion if you just don't say anything at all about it.

I also still have a problem with the play itself whether Singer executed it or not. Manipulating a machine to pay money on a win at a level you were not playing and did not win on is wrong. It's dishonest. It's cheating. And it is illegal. People here seem to want to justify this by saying Kane and Nestor weren't convicted. Well OJ wasn't convicted of murder but he still did it and it's still wrong and a crime.

Others want to say all they did was push buttons and that's not illegal. Pushing buttons on a computer is also not illegal, but doing so to hack into Bank of American and steal information or money IS. And that is pretty good comparison. Bottom line is wrong is wrong justifying it because you think it is advantage play, because it's the casino industry or just because AP's want the money, doesn't make it right. Manipulating a machine to pay money at a level you didn't win is WRONG. Accepting that money is WRONG. You guys can pretend you don't know the difference between right or wrong, but you are lying. You are choosing not to care. That is basically what criminals do.

So Y'all can celebrate this kind of thing (whether Singer is involved or not) but this isn't advantage play to me. Advantage play to me is winning fairly, honestly, within the rules, within the law. Things like card counting, or playing 100+ payback. Using MATH and legal means to win. And here is the big key for those that want to pretend not to know the difference: If you are spending 10 years hiding out, constantly moving around, looking over your shoulder, waiting for the statute of limitations to expire, then there is something wrong. You just aren't being honest that you did nothing wrong.

I think I have made my feeling known and I am aware there are many that disagree, so I won't comment further.

Kew, if you don't know or understand something, just ask. As far as I know, I believe I'm the foremost expert on everything about this play, because I lived it for about 65 months. If you just put your biases aside for a bit and ignore the parts about me you don't like, I believe you'll learn something.

For instance, when I mentioned a "diversion" that had nothing to do with steering others eyes away from this play. In fact, it had nothing to do with anyone but me. Doing this play was like being in a pressure cooker, and it was only because I forced myself to continue my successful play strategy storyline in my weekly article, on forums, on the radio and TV etc. It's one of those things that all happens so fast that you have to make seemingly instantaneous decisions, and I chose the easy money path. Coming up with the 5th card flip over phenomenon served its purpose beyond expectations--it created an enjoyable diversion within my mind, and it still does.

Like I said, put your biases aside and you wouldn't be struggling so much over this. I know your heart sank when axel made his post and the bottom fell out after mickey reported. Now you're discovering that what I said about the article having incorrect steps is true. Just go back and re-read MY explanation of the steps. They are true because that's how I've used them. If I can't convince you then OK. But please stop bringing up the same tired stuff of I lied about how my play strategy works and I had a bk 23 years ago and on and on, as a reason for you not wanting to believe this. You say you go on a forum to share and learn. Here's one of the biggest stories in vp history, and you seem to not want to understand it because it involves me.

[AxelWolf]

Now please show me where I commented on Robs button pushing sequence?

I guess YOU didn't reference it in those words. YOU said Rob had information that only someone involved with the play would have.

Mickey said Rob knew the sequence or that the listed sequence was wrong and that only someone who played would know.

I guess I assumed the information you were referring to was the same as what Mickey was saying.

Ok? But to be honest I feel like you are playing the "technicality" game here. Whether I worded it wrong or not you and Mickey have both basically state that Rob had information that you believe makes him credible. And that is exactly why he picked you. I mean both of you are guys just like myself that Rob has bashed and attacked for years. And now he needs credibility has a way to use you to get it and has made all nicey-nice with both of you.

Bottom line, Rob may have information that only someone executing the play would have. That doesn't mean he executed the play for 6 years. And it doesn't mean he had that information back then. This information could have come to him recently through numerous sources after the story broke.

I asked you point blank, both you and Mickey if you can say with 100% certainty that Rob knew of this play and played it for 6 years and made 3 million dollars. I believe you both said "no". Correct me if I am wrong.

So you find him credible and whether you realize it or not are giving him credibility, which is what he was after. I do not. Without even knowing the specifics, I know Rob's history. And he has lied and been caught lying hundreds...hundreds...and that is no exaggeration….of times. I am not a person who demands proof and the guys that normally do on this forum have strangely gone silent. But based on Rob's credibility, a long history of lying, I don't find him credible and that is my right, Justas it is every single persons.

Now I have a lunch date and then work. Have a great day Axel. Win lots of money. Draw boundaries. Don't end up in jail or looking over your shoulder for the next 10 years.

I said that Rob had information that I had not seen published online about the play. Information I thought only someone who played it would know, or knew someone who played it, or had inside knowledge. I later retracted that after talking to someone who was almost certain that information was public(he might be mistaking, since he knew this information already and only thought he also read it). I did state that Rob didn't stumble or talk as if he was just making this stuff up. He had a valid answer to my questions, and good description of what he did. I should have had some more questions for him prepared, but I didnt know what play he was talking about. I'm sure, even tho I hadn't played this myself with a little more research I could convince just about anyone I played this myself, I could even show W2G's that I could claim came from doing this play. I have got to think you could buy one of theses machines for really cheap and get the process down to a science.

The is a good chance MC got more information that has him convinced Rob must have played this himself. I don't have that information at this time and I'm renaming open either way.

[Rob.Singer]

Yes, it does work on any winning hand. Instead of a hand pay, credits are added.

Really!? Fuck taking hand pays, then. Not one. Play pennies or nickels on DDB and switch that bitch to quarters for Quads, SF's or Royals...but that's just me. I know some machines lock up at $1,000 though, so it's a handpay but not a taxable, so I would probably switch my royals to dimes just in case. Still making an absolute killing just on the quads and I'd blend in as much as anyone ever could.

The problem my eyes saw with doing this on non-han pay hands is the sheer number of times you'd have to do it at any one casino. I know you don't feel this from here, but in the moment when you're wiping off the double up question by inserting a bill and then changing denominations before hitting the cash out button, you can't help but feel that SOMEONE IS NOTICING YOU DOING SOMETHING VERY ODD. It may not be someone who works there or even someone who does and has no clue. But the more you go through these steps the more risky it becomes.

I do agree, however, that even at the notoriously neurotic Wynn, these guys never got noticed even with all their double dipping jackpots and other shenanigans. I'm just more cautious than that, which I believe contributed to the play's longevity for me.

[kewlJ]

Kew, if you don't know or understand something, just ask. As far as I know, I believe I'm the foremost expert on everything about this play, because I lived it for about 65 months. If you just put your biases aside for a bit and ignore the parts about me you don't like, I believe you'll learn something.

For instance, when I mentioned a "diversion" that had nothing to do with steering others eyes away from this play. In fact, it had nothing to do with anyone but me. Doing this play was like being in a pressure cooker, and it was only because I forced myself to continue my successful play strategy storyline in my weekly article, on forums, on the radio and TV etc. It's one of those things that all happens so fast that you have to make seemingly instantaneous decisions, and I chose the easy money path. Coming up with the 5th card flip over phenomenon served its purpose beyond expectations--it created an enjoyable diversion within my mind, and it still does.

Like I said, put your biases aside and you wouldn't be struggling so much over this. I know your heart sank when axel made his post and the bottom fell out after mickey reported. Now you're discovering that what I said about the article having incorrect steps is true. Just go back and re-read MY explanation of the steps. They are true because that's how I've used them. If I can't convince you then OK. But please stop bringing up the same tired stuff of I lied about how my play strategy works and I had a bk 23 years ago and on and on, as a reason for you not wanting to believe this. You say you go on a forum to share and learn. Here's one of the biggest stories in vp history, and you seem to not want to understand it because it involves me.

Goddam it Rob! Now I am going to be late for lunch and it is sloppy Joe day at the buffet which is my favorite. (I am a simple guy)

Rob.....I am biased. You are right. Besides all your lying about AP play, about me. Personal things. Stupid shit. Living with my mother who pays the bills. You know that is bullshit. You KNOW I am a card counter. Low level sure. That doesn't impress you. Fine. But you KNOW I support myself from card counting. (and I am proud of that btw). And yet you spew these lies about living with my mother and sugar daddies that you KNOW are BS. It's a game. But guess what, there is a truly insane little homeless guy up in Reno (banned from this forum), reprinting all this shit word for word. And that's not fair. And of course the single biggest thing is the complete lies you have repeatedly stated about my partner spouse. You have every right to not approve gay lifestyles. You don't have the right to say the things you said, about me and others spouses. I am happy you have been with your spouse for 40 some year. That just proves you have no idea the pain of losing a spouse/partner you love. You saying that shit, to me, Redietz, Arci, is like reliving that pain. You can call that all weak girly stuff. But you were wrong. No decent person behaves like that, internet forum jousting or not. So if you want to start to act like a normal person you really need to address that behavior with several people.

Second thing is this continuing claim, even today of winning what is it now $375k playing a progressive betting/stop loss system. Mathematically impossible! Axel tried to be diplomatic and say maybe your results were short-term EXTREME positive variance. Even that is not possible. Not at those numbers. If you want to be taken seriously you need to come clean with this charade.

Maybe then people can begin to take you seriously and not view everything about you through such a credibility bias. Yeah I know, you will respond calling me names, weak a silly with hurt feelings. Whatever. Rob you are a 70 year old man (belated happy birthday) who has been an internet troll, the biggest internet troll in the gambling community for 20 years (apparently). Isn't it time to stop that and be a real person?

Now I am off. I have sloppy Joes with Bacon on my mind. And I am not even going to check in while I eat. I won't let you ruin this meal.

[Rob.Singer]

Kew, here's some more helpful information.

I asked axel then mickey to discuss this with first because I wanted the toughest, most critical people I went back and forth with, to evaluate what I told them about me. There are other, even more brutal critics of me here, but redietz for instance reminds me of someone weird who gets enjoyment out of hurting small animals, and you're just too emotional.

And it was the right choice. As much as what I had to say came across more positive than negative to them, I too came away with a belief that what they are doing is simply trying their best at making their livings from APing.

[AxelWolf]

Yes, it does work on any winning hand. Instead of a hand pay, credits are added.

Really!? Fuck taking hand pays, then. Not one. Play pennies or nickels on DDB and switch that bitch to quarters for Quads, SF's or Royals...but that's just me. I know some machines lock up at $1,000 though, so it's a handpay but not a taxable, so I would probably switch my royals to dimes just in case. Still making an absolute killing just on the quads and I'd blend in as much as anyone ever could.

The problem my eyes saw with doing this on non-han pay hands is the sheer number of times you'd have to do it at any one casino. I know you don't feel this from here, but in the moment when you're wiping off the double up question by inserting a bill and then changing denominations before hitting the cash out button, you can't help but feel that SOMEONE IS NOTICING YOU DOING SOMETHING VERY ODD. It may not be someone who works there or even someone who does and has no clue.

This is what I'm talking about. That description of how you feel when you are playing something like this is hard to just make up, unless you have been in a situation like this. I know the feeling, you start to over think it and you think they are going to spot anything unusual. You feel as if they are watching you at that very moment.

[Mission146]

The problem my eyes saw with doing this on non-han pay hands is the sheer number of times you'd have to do it at any one casino. I know you don't feel this from here, but in the moment when you're wiping off the double up question by inserting a bill and then changing denominations before hitting the cash out button, you can't help but feel that SOMEONE IS NOTICING YOU DOING SOMETHING VERY ODD. It may not be someone who works there or even someone who does and has no clue. But the more you go through these steps the more risky it becomes.

I do agree, however, that even at the notoriously neurotic Wynn, these guys never got noticed even with all their double dipping jackpots and other shenanigans. I'm just more cautious than that, which I believe contributed to the play's longevity for me.

I agree with the point that you are making, but it does not change my opinion of how I would go about it. That's just cost/benefit opinion, though, so I definitely understand where you're coming from on that one. I still think it's good enough that one would certainly not be inclined to do it more than once a week (or so) in an individual casino if there is a high enough concentration of such opportunities. Certainly not more than once in a few days in any case.

I definitely know the feeling of being watched, I've sometimes had that feeling over much less!