Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

[redietz]

"The internet trolling is meaningless."

Not if it has consequences. And it does. And it will.

Better hurry up. I'm 70 years old, tomorrow's operation has a 6-10 week healing timeframe....and the gun grease is growing mold.

Me personally, I don't abide by the old Italian rules and regs, if you know what I mean. Some folks are more Exodus 34:7 and Deuteronomy 5:9 kinds of people. Oh yeah, and Numbers 14:18.

[Rob.Singer]

But the fact is, I'm more perturbed at him for how he says and brags about how he treated his ex wife than I am with his professional life.

So then why did you write that shit about Redietz's and Kewlj's spouses ?

I don't consider any personal attacks against anonymous people's stories relevant. Red won't prove who he is, so how can I know if he really had/has a wife, two wives, or whatever. Same goes for kew. For all anybody knows, he's a 90 lb. Vietnamese lady who failed in her bid to become a LV fireman. If people want the respect they crave then don't badmouth others, and if they do then lay out the real story. Otherwise, unknown people with unknown everything are fair game for anything.

[kewlJ]

I don't really have anything against how some people go about trying to make a living. I just think they are not telling the entire story, which can be a danger to any number of readers.

OMG!! "not telling the entire story?? Are you serious? Rob you have just changed your entire story in the past couple months from what you have been claiming for years. YOU are that danger to others. And for proof of this just read slingshot's post today.

Hey jbjb--were you a regular reader of Gaming Today from 2001-2008? Did you see all the big jackpots I wrote about, posted about, and handed my W2G's over to the Publisher so they could verify them to all the irate callers? Was GT "making all that up"?.....or, were you too young to read back then....

Can we discuss this timeline, because it was before my time and I want to understand.

Your original claim, up until a couple months ago was that you were a losing player attempting to play with an advantage in the late 1990's. And then you claimed to have discovered this Singer system or whatever name you use and won over a million dollars over 10 years, I guess from 1999 until you announced retirement from VP in 2009. Is this correct?

So after you recent double up play claim, the story now goes something like this: You played your Singer system for 4 years making 375k from 2000 to 2004. in 2004 you discovered the double up bug and won 3 million through 2009. This is the new version right? Have I misrepresented anything because I am trying to be fair.

So now let's lay that on top of this time that you wrote some sort of column for Gambling Today, of which I am completely unfamiliar with. While I don't find the double up claim credible, for this discussion, lets give you the benefit of doubt. 2004-2009 is covered. That leaves 2000-2004 while you were writing this column, which co-incides with the 4 years you now claim to have played the Singer system (prior to discovery of the double-up bug).

This would explain why you absolutely cannot STILL, even today, admit that the singer system, which goes against the mathematics was bullshit. To admit that today, would be admitting that those 4 years of columns were all bullshit...that you were a losing player while writing the column and claiming otherwise and you can't bring yourself to do that. Maybe even some sort of legal reason, if you signed off that you were being truthful at the time. Is that it? I mean if you are coming clean as you sort of claim, there has to be SOME reason why you continue to double down on this Singer System claim (pre-double up bug) that continues to be mathematically problematic and most definitely misleading and possibly harmful to players such as slingshot.

Oh and one other thing. Having some big w-2 wins, doesn't prove anything except that you were playing high denomination. If you are/were playing -EV, loses would STILL be bigger than wins. I once even knew OF a guy that showed proof of 100k jackpot one year (or was it 2 for the year) and STILL had a losing year. To his credit, THAT is how -EV play works.

Anyway, good luck with your surgery tomorrow. Hope everything goes well.

[kewlJ]

But the fact is, I'm more perturbed at him for how he says and brags about how he treated his ex wife than I am with his professional life.

So then why did you write that shit about Redietz's and Kewlj's spouses ?

I don't consider any personal attacks against anonymous people's stories relevant. Red won't prove who he is, so how can I know if he really had/has a wife, two wives, or whatever. Same goes for kew. For all anybody knows, he's a 90 lb. Vietnamese lady who failed in her bid to become a LV fireman. If people want the respect they crave then don't badmouth others, and if they do then lay out the real story. Otherwise, unknown people with unknown everything are fair game for anything.

Rob, I didn't "bad-mouth" you first. Go bad and read my first posts here. I came to this site. Axel made a gay joke about me. (what are friends for) and you began your homophobic assault.

But whatever. I know you don't have it in you to apologize, so it is fine. But let me tell you if you don't think these attacks mean anything, all I can say is your parents failed you Rob. They really did. That is not how you treat people whether it is to their face or on an anonymous internet forum. It just goes against decency.

If those kind of attacks are anyone's answer or rebuttal to an argument, then they really don't have much of an argument do they. It's just lame. It is 3rd grade shit.

[mickeycrimm]

I don't really have anything against how some people go about trying to make a living. I just think they are not telling the entire story, which can be a danger to any number of readers.

OMG!! "not telling the entire story?? Are you serious? Rob you have just changed your entire story in the past couple months from what you have been claiming for years. YOU are that danger to others. And for proof of this just read slingshot's post today.

Hey jbjb--were you a regular reader of Gaming Today from 2001-2008? Did you see all the big jackpots I wrote about, posted about, and handed my W2G's over to the Publisher so they could verify them to all the irate callers? Was GT "making all that up"?.....or, were you too young to read back then....

Can we discuss this timeline, because it was before my time and I want to understand.

Your original claim, up until a couple months ago was that you were a losing player attempting to play with an advantage in the late 1990's. And then you claimed to have discovered this Singer system or whatever name you use and won over a million dollars over 10 years, I guess from 1999 until you announced retirement from VP in 2009. Is this correct?

So after you recent double up play claim, the story now goes something like this: You played your Singer system for 4 years making 375k from 2000 to 2004. in 2004 you discovered the double up bug and won 3 million through 2009. This is the new version right? Have I misrepresented anything because I am trying to be fair.

So now let's lay that on top of this time that you wrote some sort of column for Gambling Today, of which I am completely unfamiliar with. While I don't find the double up claim credible, for this discussion, lets give you the benefit of doubt. 2004-2009 is covered. That leaves 2000-2004 while you were writing this column, which co-incides with the 4 years you now claim to have played the Singer system (prior to discovery of the double-up bug).

This would explain why you absolutely cannot STILL, even today, admit that the singer system, which goes against the mathematics was bullshit. To admit that today, would be admitting that those 4 years of columns were all bullshit...that you were a losing player while writing the column and claiming otherwise and you can't bring yourself to do that. Maybe even some sort of legal reason, if you signed off that you were being truthful at the time. Is that it? I mean if you are coming clean as you sort of claim, there has to be SOME reason why you continue to double down on this Singer System claim (pre-double up bug) that continues to be mathematically problematic and most definitely misleading and possibly harmful to players such as slingshot.

Oh and one other thing. Having some big w-2 wins, doesn't prove anything except that you were playing high denomination. If you are/were playing -EV, loses would STILL be bigger than wins. I once even knew OF a guy that showed proof of 100k jackpot one year (or was it 2 for the year) and STILL had a losing year. To his credit, THAT is how -EV play works.

Anyway, good luck with your surgery tomorrow. Hope everything goes well.

You had the opportunity here to ask Rob about the W2-G's and how they related to the game king bug but I think you are still hung up on side issues. You raised the point earlier in this thread about Rob not having kept proof with W2-G's. But in the time frame there was some fanfare about the W2-G's Rob was showing off at the Gaming Today office. Of course, the deception was they didn't come from his vp system, they came from the game king bug.

[Rob.Singer]

You're forever claiming you never do anything wrong kew. Shack did you wrong, Moses did you wrong, and a hundred other people before me did you wrong. You never start anything and it's always the others who do.

Do yourself a favor. Figure yourself out.

[smurgerburger]

You're forever claiming you never do anything wrong kew. Shack did you wrong, Moses did you wrong, and a hundred other people before me did you wrong. You never start anything and it's always the others who do.

Do yourself a favor. Figure yourself out.

Pretty shrewd assessment based on what I've seen in this thread.

[AxelWolf]

I have already stated that I do believe AP's are doing the right thing. I went after AP's as a policy in 2000 because I was not able to capitalize on the concept. After I ran into the double up play I made the decision to continue and actually increase my insults, to disrupt anywhere and everywhere I made an appearance at, and to steadily rail against APing.

That however was nothing but show, because everyone by now should know that I know better and that there is a constant battle going on between that community and the casinos.

I know Bob Dancer is heavily into all this and I know I've constantly criticized him over the years. But the fact is, I'm more perturbed at him for how he says and brags about how he treated his ex wife than I am with his professional life. I don't really have anything against how some people go about trying to make a living. I just think they are not telling the entire story, which can be a danger to any number of readers.

Still....I stand by how well my strategy worked for four years which has nothing to do with any of the long term logic. And I would at any time accept any challenge like I offered in WoV---that I could win at least 8 of 10 sessions while making at least a $25k profit. If the math people (which is what I am) believed this would be impossible, then they would chase this in a heartbeat. But they never did.

Sounds good to me. I know many are thinking this is just another one of Robs games that he likes to play and we are all being played and you have some motivation or angle. Perhaps they are right, but I hope everyone is wrong. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, until I see otherwise. .

I cant accept that challenge because it might be very possible to do(I don't know the math behind it all). However, that does NOT make it a long term winner.

I asked this before, perhaps you avoided the question? I will ask again: During those years you were making about 600k per year, what were you doing with all the cash?

I did answer that question in post #861 above.

People have the right to think anything they want. Some are objective and others are agenda-driven because they just don't like me for all the things I've said. And that's the choice I had to make. I know certain people can't separate the nonsense from what's real, but to me it was correct to come out with this with some people just unable to see it for what it really is. I asked to talk to you because I chose to expose how I really am to a respected AP instead of the character I played online for all these years. It's all part of the penance of having made a lot of money off of that play but it's worth it.

I don't know if four years makes anything long-term or not in vp. It worked, and if that's going against the math then that's how it is. I may have calculated my luck just right or I may have simply landed on the short side of the Bell Curve. But the strategy was worth arguing.

I'm confused, how did that answer my question about what you did with all your cash during the years you were making 600k from the double up bug? Were you stashing it under your mattress, investing in bonds, giving it to the poor, spending it all on hookers and blow, blowing it off on your system, buying houses and RV's, saving it in the bank?

[slingshot]

All I care about is the present, Rob. Did you play the artt and single play strategies during this time and do you still stand by hot/cold cycles- win goals- short term strategy? That's where my world is.

Slingshot, God bless ya. You have a child's innocence to your questions.

Perhaps-but the hot/cold cycles make themselves pretty obvious and NOT trying to play through them has saved me lots of frustration. The single play strategy is the only strategy that pretty much allows you to play through cold cycles in tough times- just a tough strategy to keep up with. I really don't care what others think of my approach- I just want to know if I was one of those who were being brushed off during this time period. For the record, it was best for me to figure things out for myself.

[Rob.Singer]

Sounds good to me. I know many are thinking this is just another one of Robs games that he likes to play and we are all being played and you have some motivation or angle. Perhaps they are right, but I hope everyone is wrong. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, until I see otherwise. .

I cant accept that challenge because it might be very possible to do(I don't know the math behind it all). However, that does NOT make it a long term winner.

I asked this before, perhaps you avoided the question? I will ask again: During those years you were making about 600k per year, what were you doing with all the cash?

I did answer that question in post #861 above.

People have the right to think anything they want. Some are objective and others are agenda-driven because they just don't like me for all the things I've said. And that's the choice I had to make. I know certain people can't separate the nonsense from what's real, but to me it was correct to come out with this with some people just unable to see it for what it really is. I asked to talk to you because I chose to expose how I really am to a respected AP instead of the character I played online for all these years. It's all part of the penance of having made a lot of money off of that play but it's worth it.

I don't know if four years makes anything long-term or not in vp. It worked, and if that's going against the math then that's how it is. I may have calculated my luck just right or I may have simply landed on the short side of the Bell Curve. But the strategy was worth arguing.

I'm confused, how did that answer my question about what you did with all your cash during the years you were making 600k from the double up bug? Were you stashing it under your mattress, investing in bonds, giving it to the poor, spending it all on hookers and blow, blowing it off on your system, buying houses and RV's, saving it in the bank?

Inasmuch as I don't want to be too specific about it publicly, I thought I did answer. Every dollar was put into a safe, and after I had the floor safe built-in I transferred it to that. I added to it every time I came home with my earnings.

I did not invest any of it. As noted several times we both have and have had retirement accounts throughout our working careers, so investments weren't necessary. My wife worked thru 2011 which also accounted for our health insurance, and I spent very little of the cash I stored away until we bought the big RV and the houses. There have been numerous other smaller uses since. I still have a small amount remaining from back then.

[smurgerburger]

Unowme, you’re looking at it as a “Monday morning quarterback”. Assuming Rob’s story is correct, he had no idea when this play would end. Remember good ‘ol retards, Nestor and Kane, found it while pushing buttons drunk. That means this play could have ended anytime, and Rob had to know that, assuming his story is true.

Most people knowing this play could end at anytime would be more aggressive the first year. They wouldn’t have made $600,000/yr with a play this strong. What if the retards got lucky four years early? This means Rob would have only made $600,000, instead of 3 million.

Bottom line is I think most people who found a play like this (and had no moral compass) would have done more to exploit it the first year.

I somewhat disagree with this. One may not want to push it too hard for various reasons. There was no way to really know if this was totally legal, even if they thought it was, you never really know on something like this. Pushing too hard might get you caught sooner by drawing attention to yourself the more you do it the better chance you have of being caught. Personally I think I wouldn't play for any hand-pays. I would put in lots of legit shill play. I would just make a few thousand per location per day targeting between $5,000 and $10,000 per day. I would probably make a deal with a very select few people who I 100% trust and then split up to diffrent states.

I have a question for you Rob. What were you doing with the money as you were earning it?

I saved the majority of it in cash, in a floor safe I had put in after about a year of the play that would have been found by no one. I was nervous about it at first, but after a while it became routine and easy. Drive overnight to anywhere in Nevada, earn at least $10,000, then drive home. If my avg. win/week was over $10k at any time because of large hits I'd take X no. of weeks off until the avg. got back down to $10k. I spent a little here and there I guess, but nothing big ticket until I bought the RV and a few homes in the early 2010's.

Contrary to other opinions here, after a while I had no reason to expect the play to end. I knew some machines wouldn't work, and after a short time it was apparent only the newest machines had this. And no matter what style new Game Kings came out, they all had it. It was astonishing.

Was I surprised that others hadn't discovered this? Never. It took a serious veteran vp addict in a drunken stupor to find it by accident. Other serious vp players like yourself, your team, Dancer etc. etc., unless they set out and spent a few years like I did looking for something in gobs of spare time hours, no one would have ever found it. It's just way too strange a sequence. I mean, who puts a bill in during the middle of a hand and before you get your credits paid? Only a drunk.

Bump for Axel.

[Bob21]

...unless they set out and spent a few years like I did looking for something in gobs of spare time hours, no one would have ever found it. It's just way too strange a sequence.

There are many red flags in Rob’s story, but this one really set off alarm bells for me. In another post, Rob said he spent four years looking for a bug or something like a bug. I’m still trying to figure out the difference between a computer bug and something that looks like a computer bug, but we’ll leave that discussion for another day. Lol

Who spends 4 years looking for something that might not be present? Remeber when Rob first started looking for this bug (or something that looks like bugs), this bug didn’t even exist. It only existed with the new machines. Btw, Ron continually points that out. This is an accurate point since the wire.com article also points it out. At least 90% of the things Rob continually points out to show he knew this play is in this article.

To me Rob’s story would be more plossible if he just said he was dilly-dallying around with one of these machines one weekend and happed upon it, then his story where he spent 4 long years spending 100 of hours looking for it. Makes no sense. No one does this. Kane and Nester happened upon it in drunken stupor, randomly pushing buttons. This is how you happen upon something like this. You don’t spend four years looking for it.

The other reason I don’t believe Rob’s story is because Mickey believes it. From being on this forum a while, I can tell Mickey is a good guy, but he’s kind of naive and he’ll believe anything.

[Rob.Singer]

...unless they set out and spent a few years like I did looking for something in gobs of spare time hours, no one would have ever found it. It's just way too strange a sequence.

There are many red flags in Rob’s story, but this one really set off alarm bells for me. In another post, Rob said he spent four years looking for a bug or something like a bug. I’m still trying to figure out the difference between a computer bug and something that looks like a computer bug, but we’ll leave that discussion for another day. Lol

Who spends 4 years looking for something that might not be present? Remeber when Rob first started looking for this bug (or something that looks like bugs), this bug didn’t even exist. It only exists with the new machines. Btw, Ron continually points that out. This is an accurate point since the wire.com article also points it out. At least 90% of the things Rob continually points out to show he knew this play is in this article.

To me Rob’s story would be more plossible if he just said he dilly-dally around with one of these machines one weekend and happed upon it, then his story where he spent 4 long years spending 100 of hours looking for it. Makes no sense. No one does this. Kane and Nester happened upon it in drunken stupor, randomly pushing buttons. This is how you happen upon something like this. You don’t spend four years looking for it.

The other reason I don’t believe Rob’s story is because Mickey believes it. From being on this forum a while I can tell Mickey is a good guy, but he’s kind of naive and he’ll believe anything.

Who spends four years doing something like this? Someone like me. And I wasn't looking for "this"--I was looking for anything. So guess why I didn't find anything the first 2+ years? BECAUSE THOSE MACHINES HAD NOTHING WRONG. Duh.

Surprised you didn't try to claim how no one stashes that much cash in a home safe. Well I do....and if you were as smart as me you would too, esp. if you had no idea if you were going to get caught and forced to pay all the w2G wins back or not.

axel I'll answer your next question now since I'll be incapacitated much of the day. Yes I paid taxes on all the earnings but not from the cash I won. We had other money for that.

I get the feeling that if I did get caught in the act back then, almost all of you would be shouting: "Lock Him Up!" But I didn't get caught and I rode this play for over 5 years. Why? Because I always know what I'm doing when it comes to important things. I'm more careful, strategic and prepared than most people in general. Most here don't like that but tough love. I did this and you didn't. Guess how much all this disapproval and speculation means now.

[kewlJ]

Floor safes and carrying and storing large sums of cash (or casino chips) is one of those things that AP's figure out for themselves based on their own circumstances. It is one of those things that makes us very different from other professions.

Anyway, we are covering nothing new here, just going over the same old ground again and again. The bottom line is Rob has this new claim, out of the blue, that differs from his standard claim that he has made for years/decades. While he appears to have some details that most people who knew of this story did not know, that does not prove his claim as there are other possible ways that he could have come into that information, including finding and playing some machines after the story broke. There also are a lot of holes and/or red flags for some of us.

So we have the usual divide (just not along normal lines). Some people choose to believe Rob, based on the details he knows. Many more members see Red flags and little tidbits that don't make sense to some of us. And based on his history, I think we are well within our right to find him not credible. Rob has offered no supporting documentation to his claims, and in fairness, he is not required to, but I find it odd based on Rob says he expected skeptics. It wouldn't have taken much for him to have avoided all this. Anyway, we are just going to keep going in circles.

Again, good luck with your medical situation today Rob. A quick question for Rob, or anyone else? Is there an achieve or way to read Rob's articles on is it Gambling Today or Gaming Today? I just visited Gaming Today website but don't see anything that suggests that. I am in the midst of a several months driving trip and have some time to kill each day and am interested to read Rob's VP articles.

[mickeycrimm]

My history with Rob goes back further than anyone here, back to about 2005 or 6. Only Arci goes back further than that. I was the one that brought up the fact here on VCT that Rob announced his retirement from professional play in 2009. No one else here knew that or at least the time frame, except Rob. But for some reason he hadn't mentioned it. But more specifically I remember it was in mid 2009 and Rob said he had hit his win quota early that year so was retiring and would no longer be filing Schedule C as a professional gambler after 2009.

John Kane got busted at the Silverton in early July, 2009. That was mid 2009. The same time Rob announced his retirement. This is just a huge coincidence, right? It's this key piece of evidence that has me thinking Rob really did put this play down. So far everyone else has ignored this key piece of evidence. Perhaps someone here can explain why it was just a huge coincidence.

[kewlJ]

My history with Rob goes back further than anyone here, back to about 2005 or 6. Only Arci goes back further than that. I was the one that brought up the fact here on VCT that Rob announced his retirement from professional play in 2009. No one else here knew that or at least the time frame, except Rob. But for some reason he hadn't mentioned it. But more specifically I remember it was in mid 2009 and Rob said he had hit his win quota early that year so was retiring and would no longer be filing Schedule C as a professional gambler after 2009.

John Kane got busted at the Silverton in July, 2009. That was mid 2009. The same time Rob announced his retirement. This is just a huge coincidence, right?

Kane got busted in 2009, but I don't believe that is when the story really broke, is it? I mean the story most often referenced is dated 2013, I believe.

I am not going to say it was a coincidence. But lets do some math. Rob just turned 70 last month. So in 2009, he would have just turned 60 and his wife was on the verge of retiring (according to Rob), so that may have just been a point that his life was changing from having a lot of time by himself, "gambling" to spending more time with his wife and their combined retirement of traveling what not.

There are just numerous possibilities about some of these things and things you seem to think carry more weight for you, just don't for some of the rest of us.

Will you at least agree Mickey that Rob could easily avoided all this, by offering just a little bit of supporting documentation of which he says he has discarded. He says "he knew there would be skeptics", but yet, intentionally discarded the prove that would have ended any and all speculation. Does that make sense to you mickey?

[mickeycrimm]

"The internet trolling is meaningless."

Not if it has consequences. And it does. And it will.

Better hurry up. I'm 70 years old, tomorrow's operation has a 6-10 week healing timeframe....and the gun grease is growing mold.

Me personally, I don't abide by the old Italian rules and regs, if you know what I mean. Some folks are more Exodus 34:7 and Deuteronomy 5:9 kinds of people. Oh yeah, and Numbers 14:18.

I'm not a big fan of the Old Testament God.

[PIGGY BANKER]

Singer has perfected the art of manipulation and never does he accept challenges from his peers or provide proof of any of his nonsense.

[Bob21]

My history with Rob goes back further than anyone here, back to about 2005 or 6. Only Arci goes back further than that. I was the one that brought up the fact here on VCT that Rob announced his retirement from professional play in 2009. No one else here knew that or at least the time frame, except Rob. But for some reason he hadn't mentioned it. But more specifically I remember it was in mid 2009 and Rob said he had hit his win quota early that year so was retiring and would no longer be filing Schedule C as a professional gambler after 2009.

John Kane got busted at the Silverton in July, 2009. That was mid 2009. The same time Rob announced his retirement. This is just a huge coincidence, right?

Kane got busted in 2009, but I don't believe that is when the story really broke, is it? I mean the story most often referenced is dated 2013, I believe.

I am not going to say it was a coincidence. But lets do some math. Rob just turned 70 last month. So in 2009, he would have just turned 60 and his wife was on the verge of retiring (according to Rob), so that may have just been a point that his life was changing from having a lot of time by himself, "gambling" to spending more time with his wife and their combined retirement of traveling what not.

There are just numerous possibilities about some of these things and things you seem to think carry more weight for you, just don't for some of the rest of us.

Will you at least agree Mickey that Rob could easily avoided all this, by offering just a little bit of supporting documentation of which he says he has discarded. He says "he knew there would be skeptics", but yet, intentionally discarded the prove that would have ended any and all speculation. Does that make sense to you mickey?

Excellent point Kj! Yeah, when the public was made aware of it was four years later with the wire.com article in 2013. Most didn’t know about it in 2009.

Also, Rob’s statue of limitations argument never made sense to me. The statue of limitations for this type of crime runs out in 5 years. Why wait 10 years? Rob gives no good explanation for why he waited so long, other than to say he wanted to be extra careful before he came forward with it. If that’s the case, then he would have never revealed it. If he thinks he can be prosecuted for a crime four years past the statue of limitations, why not six years, why not 10 years, why not 20 years? It sounds like Rob doesn’t believe in our laws anyway.

None of it makes any sense. Of course it does to Mickey because he found a new friend. Now he’s the biggest defender of a story that doesn’t add up. Interesting, to say the least.

Btw, I have a feeling Mickey is not going to let me collect on his $1,000 cash reward. I guess there is no reason to send in my application then. All that work for nothing. Lol. I was playing both sides. I didn’t think the story was true, but if it was I wanted to see if I could collect the cash reward. It was a tricky game to play.

[smurgerburger]

If Rob announced his retirement shortly after Kane was caught and the memo warning casinos to disable DU was issued but long before those facts were public knowledge, that supports his story. It doesn't weaken it as KJ seems to think...