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Thread: Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

  1. #281
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post

    This is not thought out well. If ANY surveillance person saw anything about how Kane and/or Nestor hit their jackpots, they'd have stopped them right then and there. Even at the Silverton, after Kane's jackpots became suspicious, all the eye in the sky looked at was his winning hands--not how he hit them.
    I agree with you Ron.
    Ok, what is the Joke that you keep referring to Singer as Ron? I mean he is the leading poster on this forum. Most discussions are about him, so you surely have seen his name a zillion times and as far as we all know his chosen Alias as well as his real first name are Rob (Robert). So what with Ron? And I hope this is good for you to have gone to all this trouble to set it up?
    Kj, it was an honest mistake. That’s it. I post from my phone so I forgot it was Rob instead of Ron. It looked like Ron on my phone. My eye sight isn’t the best. There was nothing behind me saying Ron. My posts are to make a point...not to get the name right. But I will moving forward. You sure try to make a big deal over nothing.
    It am not trying to make a big deal of nothing Bob21. It absolutely is no big deal and I accept your answer. The only reason I brought it up is because you have referred to him as Ron so many times, I though maybe I was missing something or not "getting" the joke?
    No problem. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. And here all the time I thought it was Ron Singer and it was really Rob Singer. I think every time I saw Rob Singer, my mind read it as Ron Singer. I guess I didn’t look at it close enough.

    As for me, you can call me dbs, bob, bjo or one of other 526 handles, just don’t call me late for dinner. I know that was a bad one. Sorry.

  2. #282
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Clearly, no actor could play Rob. They couldn't capture the magic.

    Sorry I stole that from another reader....but it's the truth.
    Actor David Paymer could play Ron:
    https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001601/...?ref_=nm_ov_ph

  3. #283
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Rob Singer wrote:

    The first thing people like you would need to know is that finding this and executing this play in an actual casino setting, where you have no idea what might happen to you at any time, completely alters your world in a way only YOU can understand. It is not anything like a years-later discussion amongst people who had no skin in the game back then.


    At least there is no mistaking on your part Rob that you were aware you were engaged in criminal activity. Of course, if you actually did partake in the endeavor itself.


    There is never an "eye-in-the-sky review" of a vp taxable win unless there is a valid reason for it,


    That is a strong assumption on your part that there is never an exception to the rules.
    No criminal activity. The machine was programmed to play the way it did. It might have been a programmer's error but it was still programmed to play that way. That's not the fault of the player nor is it the player's responsibility. Rob was legally entitled to push the buttons the way he pushed them.

    If they catch up with you, at the very least the play is over. And though there was no breaking of the law the casino can and will make life tough on someone in that position. The cases against Kane and Nestor were thrown out for one simple reason. They were legally entitled to push the buttons the way that they did. Rob did an excellent job of keeping the play going. To bad Kane and Nestor messed it up for him.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  4. #284
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Mission, most of my comments are speculation too. I felt the writer did a sloppy job writing this article. He could have done more investigative journalism to confirm or refute some of Nestor’s stories. For example, he could have easily gone to the court records to see if Nestor’s friend gave the money to the government. If the government confiscates someone’s money , it’s public record.
    My understanding is that any monies won from The Meadows by Nestor were voluntarily paid back, or maybe not so voluntarily...but they got it back is my understanding.

    Btw, this is what the writer did with Kane. He checked the court records and saw there were no records of Kane giving the money back. Why didn’t he do this with Nestor and Nestor’s friend?
    Did Nestor even disclose the friend's name? He might have requested of the interviewer that no specifics (or certain ones) as to the friend not be published. It's not at all unusual for conditions to be set for an interview.

    It’s just hard for me to believe Nestor gave half million dollars to his friend. Why would he do this? If he didn’t trust Kane, why would he trust this guy with a half million dollars.
    If you faced the possibility, however remote, of being arrested...wouldn't you want someone to know where your cash is located?

    As far as the 50% he owed Kane, I would think Kane would understand taxes have to be paid on this amount so he’d only have taken 50% after taxes. At any rate, these two sure didn’t have things spelled out when they entered into this agreement. And once Nestor saw how easy it was, I’m sure he thought why am I giving Kane all this money.
    I tend to agree with the last part, in particular. Deals are modified all the time as circumstances change, so it stands to reason that Nestor would realize that he holds the cards on the jackpots that he hits. I mean, it's not like Kane would roll and tell the casinos about Nestor because he couldn't do so without also disclosing the play and killing it for himself. We can debate all of the potential deals they could make all day long, but at the end of the day, Nestor's bargaining position is that he didn't need Kane for anything at that point.

    I'm not suggesting that Nestor should give him nothing, or that Nestor shouldn't have went by the original deal...just that he was certainly in a position to renegotiate the terms.

    All in all, a very interesting story. It shows what greed does to people.
    Killed the play, among other things. That and laziness.

  5. #285
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    And the even bigger shocker for me is that these two clowns (really just one clown, Kane) came up with this play. If they found it, I’m surprised more people didn’t find it. This is why I think Kane owning one of these machines and having it in his house helped him understand how it worked and led to him finding this play. I’m just speculating here, but I don’t believe it happened like Nestor said in the article. Yeah, right, two bozos just sat in a casino for a couple days pressing diffeeent buttons and happened to come upon it. It’s hard for me to believe it happened that way.
    Ignoring the fact that double-up must be turned on for a second, how many people do you think hit a high-paying hand and then immediately put more money in? When I say immediately, I mean before playing another hand, before switching games, before switching denominations...etc. After putting more money in (despite the fact that you just hit a big hand) you then have to switch denominations and go to the same game type which also (from anything I have read) must have the same paytable. At that point, you must hit, "Cash out," despite the fact that you not only just hit a big hand, but also that you added money immediately after doing so without playing any further hands.

    I mean, to discover that it is repeatable, you would have to know it exists in the first place. To know it exists in the first place, you would have to, quite by accident, organically do something close to all of the steps listed above. Anyone who has played video poker would know that this is a highly unusual sequence of events.

    My guess is Kane (being a hooked player) hit a good hand and added money with the intent to bump up denominations. Even after the good hand, he felt that he didn't have sufficient money on there to play the next denomination, so he added more. At that point, maybe he superstitiously decided to switch machines instead because he saw the good hand on the higher denomination, or maybe after switching, he just decided the machine would go awhile without a good hand happening since he just got one. Maybe he decided to leave. Who knows?

    It’s also hard for me to believe Kane was so sutupid to just sit in a casino and win jackpot after jackpot and not think eventually the casinos would know something was fishy. He couldn’t have been that stupid. I think this is Nestor’s version so he could have exaggerated. If the casinos said this is what happened, I would have asked them why they waited so long to do something about it.
    Those are pretty much the undisputed facts on this one, so I don't know why those would be called into challenge. It sounds like they interviewed the guy who discovered what Kane was doing.

    My other question is why didn’t more people find it? There are a lot of Video Poker players out there. It doesn’t appear too hard to find. Why did it exist for so long without it being exploited by multiple people? Who knows, maybe it was and these people are keeping silent.

    Interesting story no matter how you look at it.
    My opinion is above. I wouldn't be surprised if more than zero other people also found it and are just not saying anything publicly. It is a really odd sequence of events, though, just to find it once.

  6. #286
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Clearly, no actor could play Rob. They couldn't capture the magic.

    Sorry I stole that from another reader....but it's the truth.
    Actor David Paymer could play Ron:
    https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001601/...?ref_=nm_ov_ph
    He looks just like Ron. But does he have the depth to play him on the Big Screen? Maybe Danny Devito. Or another Ron...Ron Jeremy!
    Last edited by unowme; 05-19-2019 at 08:59 AM.

  7. #287
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post

    My guess is Kane (being a hooked player) hit a good hand and added money with the intent to bump up denominations. Even after the good hand, he felt that he didn't have sufficient money on there to play the next denomination, so he added more.
    Heck, he might have been running out of credits and just hit a pair of jacks. Maybe already had a bill in his hand ready to reload and play at dollars instead of quarters...and suddenly, his 5 quarter win turned into 5 dollars.

  8. #288
    Not according to the article, it said that it started with an unexpected handpay.

  9. #289
    At the risk of beating a dead horse, I just can't get over the huge majority of players that think this is ok. Let's take the legal aspect out of it. Earlier I suggested we ask Bob N his opinion. I mean Bob N will tell you that by the law, playing credits left on a machine is illegal. I mean this is worse than that. But again, let's forget all that. Let's say Bob voiced his opinion that it was not illegal, or some ruling specified that it was not illegal and that aspect is closed.

    Now we are just back to right and wrong. I continue to be amazed and frankly shockingly disappointed in the huge majority of members here who see no problem with playing and hitting a $500 jackpot at one level and getting paid as a $20,000 at a much higher level. I mean I am really shocked. I know Monet isn't, but I am.

    Two issues: One, in reading, I see this sort of infatuation by certain members, yeah you mission. Not meaning to pick on you, and you are not alone with this infatuation, but you knowing and the way you speak of the details of the Kane, Nestor story, just has an admiration ring to it. It is like a movie where the general public is rooting for the criminals....Ocean 11 type thing.

    The second issue is that it is really becoming apparent to me that walking through those casino doors changes people. It just changes their perception of right and wrong. I am guessing part of that is greed, and part of that has to do with just who the "opposition" is....a casino. And doing it regularly, as many of us do, really changes you...maybe it changes your perception of right and wrong outside the casino....that would be hugely disturbing. I really pray it doesn't effect me this way.

  10. #290
    I find this whole thing funny.
    One example is Binions.
    They had a glitch for about 3 years or so that I pounded.
    Not only myself but other players who I have known since 91 were pounding it.
    I'd say for the first 2 years it was about 10 to 15 of us on a bi-daily basis.
    On the 3rd year the word started getting out more and I seen many more abusing the glitch but only to the second tier of 40 points.
    300 points was the way to play it.

    Now that play was worth about 2.5% per card.
    I personally crushed them for 3500 per month in cash.
    Not to mention all the F---ing Food which was overflowing daily.

    My point is... they didn't throw any of us out.
    They never said a word about it.
    They just paid off and nobody got no mailed or 86'd that I know of.

    The kicker is on May 3rd they held a drawing for 60 names to those who swiped on the 3rd tier each day during that time period.
    I ended up getting an extra 5k out of the drawing.
    They are going to draw again soon as they let you have one entry per day.
    I don't expect to win that drawing as I am not putting enough entries in.
    However, my point is that while you all hem and haw about illegal this and that some of us just continue on taking advantage of the leaks.
    Last edited by monet; 05-19-2019 at 10:00 AM.

  11. #291
    KewlJ,

    Where do you get that playing credits left on a machine is illegal?

    https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/faq-...nders-keepers/

    https://kdvr.com/2017/11/16/outrage-...-slot-credits/

    Basically, this is going to vary based upon state and/or possibly local laws. I have not exhaustively researched every state on this matter, but the only two states of which I am aware this is expressly illegal are Colorado and Pennsylvania. Colorado is an exceptionally dangerous one because they will prosecute (and fine) to the fullest extent of a law even if the amount is less than one dollar and is a clear accident. In Pennsylvania, the signs that nobody ever reads as they enter the casinos often (if not always) state that there is no, "Finders Keepers," and any abandoned or lost chips or credits should be turned into security of otherwise left alone. I have not encountered any stories of anyone in Pennsylvania facing adverse actions for inconsequential amounts, though. While Colorado pursues something like this zealously, any PA security guard I have asked pretty much just thinks it's a mild pain in the ass.

    For my part, in Pennsylvania, I do make it a point to look for abandoned credits on a machine I am about to play, cash out, and put the ticket on top of the machine. If it's a dollar or more, I'll usually just give it to security out of caution.

    I wouldn't go as far as to say I deeply admire Kane and Nestor, I recall calling Kane an idiot for getting caught the way he did. I also recall being critical of Nestor for rolling up into The Meadows like a rock star. It has nothing to do with infatuation, it's just an interesting story because it is an interesting story. They stumbled upon a neat play, figured out how it worked, exploited it. It's not so different from discovering a new vulture play, except that there's really no legal or potentially moral gray area with a straight vulture play as long as you're not trying to influence (creators) how other people play.

    As far as the casino being the, "Opposition," all I can say is you're the one who keeps calling them that. You've never seen me say it. In terms of vulturing (or anything else gambling related) it is the casino who enables there to be potential advantages, so why would I describe them as the, 'Opposition?'

    Anyway, I think what you are seeing as, "Infatuation," has to do with the hard stand I took that they did nothing illegal. They didn't do anything illegal because I am infatuated with them; they did nothing illegal because they did nothing illegal. If you think what they did should be illegal, that's fine, but there was no way (state or federal) for them to bend the framework of the actions into any existing criminal law.

  12. #292
    Originally Posted by monet View Post
    I find this whole thing funny.
    One example is Binions.
    They had a glitch for about 3 years or so that I pounded.
    Not only myself but other players who I have known since 91 were pounding it.
    I'd say for the first 2 years it was about 10 to 15 of us on a bi-daily basis.
    On the 3rd year the word started getting out more and I seen many more abusing the glitch but only to the second tier of 40 points.
    300 points was the way to play it.

    Now that play was worth about 2.5% per card.
    I personally crushed them for 3500 per month in cash.
    Not to mention all the F---ing Food which was overflowing daily.

    My point is... they didn't throw any of us out.
    They never said a word about it.
    They just paid off and nobody got no mailed or 86'd that I know of.

    The kicker is on May 3rd they held a drawing for 60 names to those who swiped on the 3rd tier each day during that time period.
    I ended up getting an extra 5k out of the drawings.
    They are going to draw again soon as they let you have one entry per day.
    I don't expect to win that drawing as I am not putting enough entries in.
    However, my point is that while you all hem and haw about illegal this and that some of us just continue on taking advantage of the leaks.
    I thought that May 3rd drawing was because they got heat from the gaming control board for not paying out any top awards in each of the promotions 3 tiers. So as punishment they had to draw names of past participants for 60 - $2500 prizes. I remember seeing a letter they sent out on that somewhere.

  13. #293
    Originally Posted by monet View Post
    I find this whole thing funny.
    One example is Binions.
    They had a glitch for about 3 years or so that I pounded.
    Not only myself but other players who I have known since 91 were pounding it.
    I'd say for the first 2 years it was about 10 to 15 of us on a bi-daily basis.
    On the 3rd year the word started getting out more and I seen many more abusing the glitch but only to the second tier of 40 points.
    300 points was the way to play it.

    Now that play was worth about 2.5% per card.
    I personally crushed them for 3500 per month in cash.
    Not to mention all the F---ing Food which was overflowing daily.

    My point is... they didn't throw any of us out.
    They never said a word about it.
    They just paid off and nobody got no mailed or 86'd that I know of.

    The kicker is on May 3rd they held a drawing for 60 names to those who swiped on the 3rd tier each day during that time period.
    I ended up getting an extra 5k out of the drawing.
    They are going to draw again soon as they let you have one entry per day.
    I don't expect to win that drawing as I am not putting enough entries in.
    However, my point is that while you all hem and haw about illegal this and that some of us just continue on taking advantage of the leaks.

    So...this glitch got fixed?

  14. #294
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post

    I thought that May 3rd drawing was because they got heat from the gaming control board for not paying out any top awards in each of the promotions 3 tiers. So as punishment they had to draw names of past participants for 60 - $2500 prizes. I remember seeing a letter they sent out on that somewhere.
    Everyone knew they fixed that machine to never pay out the 1000 dollar top prize.
    Who gives a flying whatever about why they had to give away 150k and another 100k later!?
    That isn't the point.

    One of the points is that APing is about exploiting weakness and getting paid over and over again.
    This isn't working for charity or the church as many seem to post or think.
    The whole thing is a cesspool and I just find it hilarious when all the do-gooders post up about moral behavior.
    The poker room is filled with people who think they are the most moral individuals in the world.
    Just boggles my mind.

    Originally Posted by smurgerburger View Post

    So...this glitch got fixed?
    Yes it got fixed awhile back.
    I posted about it near the end if anyone wanted to mess with it.
    I also posted about it when it got fixed.
    Some of us actually post up real information that players can use.
    Course that means you have to read the information and take the time to learn and apply it.
    It also means you have to be willing to Lie, Cheat and Steal.
    Last edited by monet; 05-19-2019 at 10:30 AM.

  15. #295
    Originally Posted by monet View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post

    I thought that May 3rd drawing was because they got heat from the gaming control board for not paying out any top awards in each of the promotions 3 tiers. So as punishment they had to draw names of past participants for 60 - $2500 prizes. I remember seeing a letter they sent out on that somewhere.
    Everyone knew they fixed that machine to never pay out the 1000 dollar top prize.
    Who gives a flying whatever about why they had to give away 150k and another 100k later!?
    That isn't the point.

    One of the points is that APing is about exploiting weakness and getting paid over and over again.
    This isn't working for charity or the church as many seem to post or think.
    The whole thing is a cesspool and I just find it hilarious when all the do-gooders post up about moral behavior.
    The poker room is filled with people who think they are the most moral individuals in the world.
    Just boggles my mind.

    Originally Posted by smurgerburger View Post

    So...this glitch got fixed?
    Yes it got fixed awhile back.
    I posted about it near the end if anyone wanted to mess with it.
    I also posted about it when it got fixed.
    Some of us actually post up real information that players can use.
    Course that means you have to read the information and take the time to learn and apply it.
    It also means you have to be willing to Lie, Cheat and Steal.
    I was just thinking KewlJ might want to throw the Binion's owner in jail or something. With them knowing they weren't paying any top prizes and all. Just pointing out that this shit is a two way street.

  16. #296
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post

    I was just thinking KewlJ might want to throw the Binion's owner in jail or something. With them knowing they weren't paying any top prizes and all. Just pointing out that this shit is a two way street.
    LOL... ok you got me with that one.
    Go to the office of the Internet Police

  17. #297
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    I was just thinking KewlJ might want to throw the Binion's owner in jail or something. With them knowing they weren't paying any top prizes and all. Just pointing out that this shit is a two way street.
    Maybe you have heard this one MaxPen: Two wrongs don't make a right.

    But that said, I said earlier in one of these threads that it is hard not to want to adopt that "anything goes" attitude against the casinos. Everyday you see them do more and more unsavory (if not illegal) shit. Given a little more time, I might be right there with everyone else. I hope not though. And I am not there yet.

  18. #298
    I heard a quote the other day.
    It went something like... Live and Let Live!

    Here is a small example of a post about Binions that I made after the fact.
    A little over a year ago on this site.

    ---------------

    https://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sh...713-Hot-Sucker

    4. The Horseshoe or Binions

    This place is similar to the 4 Queens but not nearly as many good games. You basically need about the same amount of coin in to max out the mail with the same type of comp/cash card.

    I suppose the best play is the 8/5 BP with the full pay quad payouts. Be careful they have plenty of 8/5 BP with the wrong quad payout. So the best way to do it is to earn the 300 points to get the 3 swipes per day which is 2400 coin in. It was better when the swipe was glitched and you were getting 3 free swipes but they fixed that. It still is a small win and you will get plenty of free food and free play with your swipes and free gifts for you players who like that garbage. The card and the mail will put you over 100% and you really don't need to worry about heat from this place or the 4 queens. You can even pull the card out when you flop quads or better to hide your play but since your playing a losing game do you really need to... I say yes.


    Edit:
    I just noticed that thread has 18,000+ views.
    Not that it matters or I care but I guess some people actually read that mess I typed out.
    My only hope is that it rightfully pissed off some of you
    Last edited by monet; 05-19-2019 at 10:56 AM.

  19. #299
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post

    Ignoring the fact that double-up must be turned on for a second, how many people do you think hit a high-paying hand and then immediately put more money in? When I say immediately, I mean before playing another hand, before switching games, before switching denominations...etc. After putting more money in (despite the fact that you just hit a big hand) you then have to switch denominations and go to the same game type which also (from anything I have read) must have the same paytable. At that point, you must hit, "Cash out," despite the fact that you not only just hit a big hand, but also that you added money immediately after doing so without playing any further hands.
    .
    One clarification--when your winning hand appears that you want to up the denomination on, the "double up?" question appears on the screen (just like it does with every winner). The player would have to know in advance that you do not answer that question, and instead insert a bill or a ticket in order to wipe away the question.

    Who would know to do something like that? Who would be satisfied seeing a quad or better and not having their credits tallied up for it even if they somehow pushed a bill in? And who would know to eventually push the Cash Out button instead of calling an attendant over to ask for help on getting their win paid? "HELP ME I HIT FOUR 8's AND THE MACHINE DID NOT PAY ME!!"

    The answer of course is either someone who already knew these steps, a drunk who is confused and standing up looking bewildered at his machine and flailing away at this and that, or someone who has been looking for something like this for years.

    I tend to believe Kane did not discover this on his machine at home. If even half of what was written about him is true, he did not have the mental capacity to figure this thing out on his own. If he did possess that skill, he easily would have determined that telling ANYBODY else about this would have been a play-killing mistake. And if you add in his complete lack of discipline even after he got rid of that idiot Nestor, you end up with someone who has very little aptitude for strategically thinking things through.
    Last edited by Rob.Singer; 05-19-2019 at 11:04 AM.

  20. #300
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    At the risk of beating a dead horse, I just can't get over the huge majority of players that think this is ok. Let's take the legal aspect out of it. Earlier I suggested we ask Bob N his opinion. I mean Bob N will tell you that by the law, playing credits left on a machine is illegal. I mean this is worse than that. But again, let's forget all that. Let's say Bob voiced his opinion that it was not illegal, or some ruling specified that it was not illegal and that aspect is closed.

    Now we are just back to right and wrong. I continue to be amazed and frankly shockingly disappointed in the huge majority of members here who see no problem with playing and hitting a $500 jackpot at one level and getting paid as a $20,000 at a much higher level. I mean I am really shocked. I know Monet isn't, but I am.

    Two issues: One, in reading, I see this sort of infatuation by certain members, yeah you mission. Not meaning to pick on you, and you are not alone with this infatuation, but you knowing and the way you speak of the details of the Kane, Nestor story, just has an admiration ring to it. It is like a movie where the general public is rooting for the criminals....Ocean 11 type thing.

    The second issue is that it is really becoming apparent to me that walking through those casino doors changes people. It just changes their perception of right and wrong. I am guessing part of that is greed, and part of that has to do with just who the "opposition" is....a casino. And doing it regularly, as many of us do, really changes you...maybe it changes your perception of right and wrong outside the casino....that would be hugely disturbing. I really pray it doesn't effect me this way.
    Let he without sin cast the first stone. The morality police find millions of flaws in humankind. And yes we are flawed, but I'm not going to judge anyone for legally taking unfair advantage of a casino. I'm not that perfect.

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