Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

[pahrump pete]

I sent the Wired article to a friend. Think of The Treasure of the Sierra Madre with Humphrey Bogart I say. Great article he says later.

I tell him I found a guy who says he made these moves earlier and made a couple million before it was over. How do two guys lose it in a couple of months and one keeps it going for years? He wants to know. With luck and smarts I say.

Some immigrants get caught going over the wall but some make it, blend in, get a job, raise a family and live on and on for decades.

I believe the story. There's a guy who says he makes 100 grand a year for quite a while now with BJ and card counting. I could see it. I tell him about another guy out west somewhere. He's a vulture on slot machines, picks up what the tourists leave behind, gos in for the kill when the machines are ripe.

My friend asks, "could we ever be buzzards"? No you dope I say. The term is vulture. Anyhow the guy with the double up move said a lot of things about video poker that can help our game in the meantime.

[kewlJ]

why I waited 10 years to release this.

We know why you waited 10 years. Statute of limitation because you knew it could be a crime, despite that you and everyone else insist in wasn't. Actions speak louder than words.

I've been battling with AP's for 20 years over their play and my play methods--much of it as a mandatory cover for what I was really doing.

There was no need for that. All you needed to do for cover was not say anything.

My original effort failed, so I came back in 2000 with a rage and a grudge....and a very successful Singer Play Strategy--but for only 4 years.

This claim, which is what I was originally challenging when you started with all the name calling with me, remains mathematically impossible.

Anyone saying "There are lots of ways that could have been learned" needs to put up some proof and not just speculation with no substance to it. Can anyone point out where it was published that the steps were wrong? Any article out there? Anything on a forum? I don't think you are going to find anything that Rob could have learned it from other than on the play itself.

I'll give you 2 ways that Rob could have learned the correct sequence just off the top of my head.

1.) Sometimes after the story broke, Rob could have communicated with someone who did execute this play, Kane, Nestor, or someone else. Hell, I contacted Nestor last week through facebook. Not hard at all.

2.) Again, after the story broke, Rob could have found a machine at some out of the way location (maybe an Indian Casino) that still had the capability. So Rob tries the sequence stated in the article and it doesn't work. He plays around a bit and discovers the correct sequence. Rob is a pretty smart guy.

Either of these scenarios, plus probably a few more could have provided Rob with the correct sequence and knowledge necessary and would not mean that he had that knowledge in 2003 and executed the play for 6 years to the tune of 3 million dollars. Having this knowledge and/or any other knowledge about the play NOW, does not mean he had it pre-Kane/Nestor, nor that he played it for 6 years.

Mickey if you are now joining the "proofers" (who has mysteriously gone quite on this one), demanding proof of something, this is what needs to be proven. I am NOT demanding proof of anything, but based on Rob's complete lack of credibility, lying about all things big and small and completely irrelevant, for me to be satisfied, yeah it will require some sort of evidential corroboration.

[kewlJ]

And let's talk about "proof" for a minute. MickeyCrimm, who I continue to have great respect for, called this claim by Singer "a bombshell", "the biggest thing to hit the AP community is some time". Ok, if true I accept that. But this is Rob Singer making the claim. 20 years of lying about everything and anything, big and small. Is it unreasonable to expect some sort of evidence, documentation to collaborate a claim of this magnitude?

[monet]

My friend asks, "could we ever be buzzards"? No you dope I say. The term is vulture.

Not exactly true!
I know a few long time players who call it/them Scavenger(s) or Scavenger Plays.
However, Vulture is the most popular term.

[mickeycrimm]

We know why you waited 10 years. Statute of limitation because you knew it could be a crime, despite that you and everyone else insist in wasn't. Actions speak louder than words.

There was no need for that. All you needed to do for cover was not say anything.

My original effort failed, so I came back in 2000 with a rage and a grudge....and a very successful Singer Play Strategy--but for only 4 years.

This claim, which is what I was originally challenging when you started with all the name calling with me, remains mathematically impossible.

Anyone saying "There are lots of ways that could have been learned" needs to put up some proof and not just speculation with no substance to it. Can anyone point out where it was published that the steps were wrong? Any article out there? Anything on a forum? I don't think you are going to find anything that Rob could have learned it from other than on the play itself.

I'll give you 2 ways that Rob could have learned the correct sequence just off the top of my head.

1.) Sometimes after the story broke, Rob could have communicated with someone who did execute this play, Kane, Nestor, or someone else. Hell, I contacted Nestor last week through facebook. Not hard at all.

2.) Again, after the story broke, Rob could have found a machine at some out of the way location (maybe an Indian Casino) that still had the capability. So Rob tries the sequence stated in the article and it doesn't work. He plays around a bit and discovers the correct sequence. Rob is a pretty smart guy.

Either of these scenarios, plus probably a few more could have provided Rob with the correct sequence and knowledge necessary and would not mean that he had that knowledge in 2003 and executed the play for 6 years to the tune of 3 million dollars. Having this knowledge and/or any other knowledge about the play NOW, does not mean he had it pre-Kane/Nestor, nor that he played it for 6 years.

Mickey if you are now joining the "proofers" (who has mysteriously gone quite on this one), demanding proof of something, this is what needs to be proven. I am NOT demanding proof of anything, but based on Rob's complete lack of credibility, lying about all things big and small and completely irrelevant, for me to be satisfied, yeah it will require some sort of evidential corroboration.

KJ., the speculation is easy to do. But did you happen to ask Nestor if anyone contacted him asking about the sequence? Rob is to smart to have gotten the information from Kane or Nestor then tried to claim he knew it before them. It would be to easy for them to shoot him down on it. They would know for sure that he was lying. As for your 2nd speculation it is just that speculation. Easy enough to do.

In my next post I'll tell everyone something that I think is more than just coincidence.

[kewlJ]

KJ., the speculation is easy to do. But did you happen to ask Nestor if anyone contacted him asking about the sequence? Rob is to smart to have gotten the information from Kane or Nestor then tried to claim he knew it before them.

Of course I did Mickey. THAT was the purpose of me contacting him. But Nestor skirted the question. His reply was that it was a long time ago and he doesn't remember much about the play. It was quite obvious he was just blowing me off.

And I agree Rob is too smart to have gotten the info from Nestor/Kane. I did say or someone else. Who is to say there weren't others that discovered this play. Monet kind of hinted at that and it seems very likely to me.

I personally think the most likely scenario was my scenario number 2. When this story broke, Rob being an AP? or a gambler interested in making money, or whatever label you want to put on him, probably ran to the nearest Game king machine, just like a thousand other gamblers/AP's/ AP want-a-bes, and tried the sequence in the article. When that didn't work he played around a bit and discovered the correct sequence. And finding a machine that still had this capability after the story broke, would be right up Rob's alley. He visits some out of the out of the way places that are just the type of places that might be slow to react.

So he could have discovered this information after the fact. He could have even played it and made some money. But the fact that he now has this information does not mean he had it in 2003 or at any time before this story broke, nor does it prove that he played for 6 years and made 3 million dollars. It just doesn't! If Rob wants to offer something else, that does corroborate that, so be it.

[mickeycrimm]

In my phone talk with Rob one of the last things he told me was how he had to request they enable the double up. But he wouldn't say double up, he would call it the "double thig-a-ma-jig" or the "double or nothing thing" trying to look like a novice. It was in a casino in 2009 when he requested the double up, they wouldn't activate it, and he knew an employee there. The guy brought out the worldwide memo that IGT sent around telling everyone to disable the double ups and not turn them on. He let Rob read the memo.

At that point you know for sure that Rob knew nothing of Kane and Nestor. He just knew that IGT had to have gotten hip about the double up bug or they wouldn't have sent out that memo. So Rob knew the play was over and he shouldn't monkey around with it anymore because of the information that had been put out to casinos. It wouldn't be wise to work the play after that.

So when the play ended what would Rob do then? Go back to grinding on his video poker system? If I had been making an easy 500K a year for five years there's no way I would go back to grinding it like before. And neither did Rob.

This is something that everyone that goes back far enough with Rob knows. In 2009, through the internet forums, Rob announced that he was retiring as a professional video poker player. No more filing Schedule C. That's right, 2009. He announces his retirement the same year the play goes down. Now you can all do your speculating. It was just coincidence, right? My opinion is no way in hell it was a coincidence.

[mickeycrimm]

KJ., the speculation is easy to do. But did you happen to ask Nestor if anyone contacted him asking about the sequence? Rob is to smart to have gotten the information from Kane or Nestor then tried to claim he knew it before them.

Of course I did Mickey. THAT was the purpose of me contacting him. But Nestor skirted the question. His reply was that it was a long time ago and he doesn't remember much about the play. It was quite obvious he was just blowing me off.

He blew you off so you consider your speculation to still be accurate?

[unowme]

We know why you waited 10 years. Statute of limitation because you knew it could be a crime, despite that you and everyone else insist in wasn't. Actions speak louder than words.
.

Who is this 'WE'? You have no idea if this is true. He may have had a legal opinion and known that this was not a crime. He could have been advised that the casinos could pressure prosecutors to charge him with something so just keep his mouth shut. Otherwise, he'd have to pay a lot of his winnings in a legal defense for charges that would eventually be dropped (exactly what happened to the other two).....because....no crime.

[kewlJ]

KJ., the speculation is easy to do. But did you happen to ask Nestor if anyone contacted him asking about the sequence? Rob is to smart to have gotten the information from Kane or Nestor then tried to claim he knew it before them.

Of course I did Mickey. THAT was the purpose of me contacting him. But Nestor skirted the question. His reply was that it was a long time ago and he doesn't remember much about the play. It was quite obvious he was just blowing me off.

He blew you off so you consider your speculation to still be accurate?

I never ever said it was accurate or that is the way it went down! I said it was one of several other possibilities.

I don't know what is going on here and why you and Axel are so adamantly defending Singer. Perhaps you know something that you haven't yet shared. If that is the case, clue us all in, so we can form our opinion based on as much information available. But in the absence of that all you and Axel can really verify it that Singer's claim is possible. He gets credit for the math making the claim possible, which is a hurdle that he usually doesn't get over with his claims. And he gets credit for NOW having information about the play that few have. But that simply does not prove he had this information in 2003, nor that he executed the play for 6 years to the tune of 3 million dollars.

Mission has provided a number of articles and sources of information that I hadn't read before. Who is to say what is out there. There could be an article that does have the correct sequence. Or there could be an article or source where someone else says, "hey I found that play before Nestor/Kane and the sequence is wrong. All I am saying is there are a number of possibilities, including that Singer's story is 100% true. You and Axelwolf, have just accepted that the only possibility is that Singer is telling the truth because he now has this information. Now again, if you have something further that corroborates the claim, I am sure we would all like to hear it. That's why I was hoping there would be a GWAE appearance, giving Rob the opportunity to share more details that might substantiate his claim more.

I am not against Rob on this. If he found this and made the money he says, power to him. I have stated my opinion that this kind of thing would be over the line for me, but power to him. In the battel between casino industry and players (all players) I am always rooting for the players, so I would be happy for Rob. Just not something I would be comfortable with.

But it is kind of funny that Rob is using this "everyone is against me" defense as to why some people aren't convinced, when he went out of his way for 20 years to make sure members of this community and the various forums disliked him. Just weird.

[quahaug]

How does anyone know the correct method of executing the play if it's gone? You can't go and try it out anywhere. Rob or anyone else could say any sequence was the correct one. Am I missing something?

[mickeycrimm]

Of course I did Mickey. THAT was the purpose of me contacting him. But Nestor skirted the question. His reply was that it was a long time ago and he doesn't remember much about the play. It was quite obvious he was just blowing me off.

He blew you off so you consider your speculation to still be accurate?

I never ever said it was accurate or that is the way it went down! I said it was one of several other possibilities.

I don't know what is going on here and why you and Axel are so adamantly defending Singer. Perhaps you know something that you haven't yet shared. If that is the case, clue us all in, so we can form our opinion based on as much information available. But in the absence of that all you and Axel can really verify it that Singer's claim is possible. He gets credit for the math making the claim possible, which is a hurdle that he usually doesn't get over with his claims. And he gets credit for NOW having information about the play that few have. But that simply does not prove he had this information in 2003, nor that he executed the play for 6 years to the tune of 3 million dollars.

Mission has provided a number of articles and sources of information that I hadn't read before. Who is to say what is out there. There could be an article that does have the correct sequence. Or there could be an article or source where someone else says, "hey I found that play before Nestor/Kane and the sequence is wrong. All I am saying is there are a number of possibilities, including that Singer's story is 100% true. You and Axelwolf, have just accepted that the only possibility is that Singer is telling the truth because he now has this information. Now again, if you have something further that corroborates the claim, I am sure we would all like to hear it. That's why I was hoping there would be a GWAE appearance, giving Rob the opportunity to share more details that might substantiate his claim more.

People have tried to shame me into changing my opinion before. It never worked for them. It won't work for you. I'm going with combined facts. It's not just that he knew the sequence was wrong. He also announced his retirement in 2009. Those two combined facts, and what you can speculate from it, trump any other speculation out there.

[unowme]

How does anyone know the correct method of executing the play if it's gone? You can't go and try it out anywhere. Rob or anyone else could say any sequence was the correct one. Am I missing something?

Didn't Ron claim to have a couple of these machines? Maybe he could just post a video.

[kewlJ]

People have tried to shame me into changing my opinion before. It never worked for them. It won't work for you. I'm going with combined facts. It's not just that he knew the sequence was wrong. He also announced his retirement in 2009. Those two combined facts alone trump speculation.

I am NOT trying to shame you into anything Mickey. Nor am I trying to get you to change your opinion and turn on Rob. Please stop with this nonsense. All I am saying is there are other possibilities that You and Axel don't seem to be considering.

Now about this retirement in 2009. IF this latest claim or caper turns out to be false, and his previous claim that he is still sticking to today continues to be mathematically impossible, what exactly was he retiring from? Playing VP at a disadvantage?

[kewlJ]

I will tell you what...for me, IF as part of this revelation or latest claim, Ron (<-what the hell, I guess that is the name now) had come clean on what he calls his singer system, I call the progressive wagering / stop limits system, and said something like yeah that was a all a bunch of crap designed to throw people off the track, and IS in fact mathematically impossible, it would have added to his credibility for me. But the fact that he continues to double down on this initial Singer claim (that remains impossible) just continues to bring into question his credibility about everything.

I mean I would still have a problem with his intentionally misleading and tricking players to play his phony system. I don't know how the likes of slingshot and others that followed his nonsense and lost money would feel, but it would have added SOME credibility for me. The fact that he continues to double down on a completely impossible claim, makes it very hard to believe anything he says without proof. And again, THAT is what credibility is and he created this lack of credibility for decades now.

[smurgerburger]

How does anyone know the correct method of executing the play if it's gone? You can't go and try it out anywhere. Rob or anyone else could say any sequence was the correct one. Am I missing something?

Supposedly Axel knows the correct sequence because he knows someone who used it. (Or something like that, apologies if I got the details wrong).

I do think Rob's description of the sequence is quite believable. It makes sense, although it's simple enough that I would have expected knowledge of the bug to go viral.

As to the issue of whether Rob is telling the truth, I don't know and honestly don't care. The bug is interesting, the legalities are interesting, the best way of exploiting the bug is interesting.

Whether some guy on the internet is telling tales or not is not interesting except to people that have some kind of personal rivalry with him.

[Bob21]

^ This

RS, I’m not interested in the Rob Singer part of it. I am truelly fascinated by the actual case itself with Kane and Nestor. It’s an interesting case on its own merits. How did these two bozos figure this out? I’m just trying to put their story together, and appreciate Mission engaging with me on this. I have no stake in the game. I’m just trying to understand it.

We all can see that Bob. But there's always ignorant people with an agenda. These particular two are serial haters, and no one--not even other AP's--can be allowed not to hate.

Just to be clear Rob (not Ron this time. See I got it right), I’m also interested in your story too. My point was the discussion between Mission and me had to do with the wired article and Kane and Nestor. I find it interesting, and I’m trying to put it together by reading through the lines. I get what you’re saying about Kane having his own personal machine not playing much of a role, but I think it at least gave him some insight into how it worked. At the very least, this would have given him a leg up on someone who didn’t have one.

The technicians would have also given Kane some inside information on how the machine worked. They could have pointed out something that would have given Kane an indication a play like his would work without realizing it. I’ve had people give me information that has helped me solve a problem, and they weren’t able to solve it with the same information.

As far as the stature of limitations, I’ve done some research on this and it looks like the stature of limitations is 3 to 5 years for a felony or any kind of theft. Why did you wait 10 years to revel this play? It looks like you’d have been in the clear after only five years.

[Rob.Singer]

I think we get it kew--you don't want it to be true. No one's gonna call in a hitman because of how you feel.

Your biggest problem has to do with your continuing to falsely claim that my "phony" Play Strategy, which was very successful for four years despite how you just can't cope with that, is supposedly a reason why my finding this play in early 2004 is also supposedly fabricated. You have your right to any opinion. I just thought you might want to take a step back and see how that makes you look.

You also saw mickey explain why he leans the way he does on this, because I know every tiny detail about this play, and the fact that I retired from professional vp playing (as soon as these guys got caught) in 2009. That fact has been recorded since 2009.

Here's a few other facts that support this:
--The Alan/arci IRS transcript challenge. I had been saying for years that I had been winning about $90k to $100k/year since 2000 by playing my strategy. When the challenge came out for something like 2006-2009 tax years, I came up with every excuse in the book to not have to show mine. Why--because I was an all-time loser or that I lied on my returns? Of course not. I simply had way too much winnings each year to be able to explain, all smack dab in the middle of the statute of limitations.

--I've bought property and other big ticket items over these years and put most of them in my children's names. Am I that great a father? Well, yes. But I was also very aware that what I had been doing in video poker placed me right in the middle of the unknown. I don't care that the feds dropped the Kane case. You just never, ever know for sure what could happen from any direction.

--Name someone else that has acted as wildly insulting as me over the last 15 years on forums, and has come up with more outrageous anomalies (non-random machines/5th card flipover/AP being a "state of mind" etc.)! It was all meant as a means of diversion for ME, because nobody but me knows what it was like having gone thru the play for those years, then having to wait TEN years in order to let it all out. Yes kew it was misleading and I'm the one that had to deal with that the most. I also took no pleasure in all the things I said about arci. It was simply a means to a safe end. Part of the "protect myself and my family first" act. Just like everything I've done.

Now it's finally over. If any of you knew me, you'd know I'm just a regular guy who came across the find of a vp lifetime, and because I took it seriously, it lasted as long as it could. I am very very happy it wasn't me who ended the play.

Bob21: as I've said, I waited a full 10 years because I'm a very cautious person. I didn't know what the civil ramifications might be either. And as a formal federal employee, I know how untrustworthy things can be with them.

[mickeycrimm]

People have tried to shame me into changing my opinion before. It never worked for them. It won't work for you. I'm going with combined facts. It's not just that he knew the sequence was wrong. He also announced his retirement in 2009. Those two combined facts alone trump speculation.

I am NOT trying to shame you into anything Mickey. Nor am I trying to get you to change your opinion and turn on Rob. Please stop with this nonsense. All I am saying is there are other possibilities that You and Axel don't seem to be considering.

Now about this retirement in 2009. IF this latest claim or caper turns out to be false, and his previous claim that he is still sticking to today continues to be mathematically impossible, what exactly was he retiring from? Playing VP at a disadvantage?

Rob did in fact announce his retirement. Whether one considers his system to be professional play or not is irrelevant to that fact.

[Rob.Singer]

People have tried to shame me into changing my opinion before. It never worked for them. It won't work for you. I'm going with combined facts. It's not just that he knew the sequence was wrong. He also announced his retirement in 2009. Those two combined facts alone trump speculation.

I am NOT trying to shame you into anything Mickey. Nor am I trying to get you to change your opinion and turn on Rob. Please stop with this nonsense. All I am saying is there are other possibilities that You and Axel don't seem to be considering.

Now about this retirement in 2009. IF this latest claim or caper turns out to be false, and his previous claim that he is still sticking to today continues to be mathematically impossible, what exactly was he retiring from? Playing VP at a disadvantage?

Rob did in fact announce his retirement. Whether one considers his system to be professional play or not is irrelevant to that fact.

Correct. I consider (and I filed schedule C for) the years 2000 - 2003 (where I won playing my SPS) and the years 2004 - 2009 (where I won exploiting the DU flaw) all as playing as a professional VP player.

Which begs this question: shouldn't I receive a VERY SPECIAL invitation from vpfree for induction into their Hall of Fame? I mean....who exactly has accomplished (or won) all that I have by playing that game?