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Thread: Guidelines for AP play on Buffalo Diamond slots

  1. #241
    I am interested in the new version/clone of Buffalo Diamond/ Timber Wolf. It has for gem levels. I have only seen this a couple times so I have no idea what numbers are good. At the lowest denomination the green gems reset somewhere around 7. The highest I have seen them get so far is 23 on any denomination. The second level (blue i think) the highest I have seen is 30. The top level I haven't seen over 100 yet on the lowest denomination and I haven't seen the top number under 100 on the highest 3 denominations.

  2. #242
    I'm working on it. If it's anything like it's older brother I should be done in about 18 months.

  3. #243
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post
    I'm working on it. If it's anything like it's older brother I should be done in about 18 months.
    No it was not you he wanted me to tell you that. He deactivated his account because darksiders got host who worked for him fired. These host provided cards and let him operate freely without worry. He said he still intends to head south for a meeting at charter. Whatever that means he said you would know

  4. #244
    Originally Posted by GOD View Post
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post
    I'm working on it. If it's anything like it's older brother I should be done in about 18 months.
    No it was not you he wanted me to tell you that. He deactivated his account because darksiders got host who worked for him fired. These host provided cards and let him operate freely without worry. He said he still intends to head south for a meeting at charter. Whatever that means he said you would know
    Oh, you know Daniel?

  5. #245
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post
    Originally Posted by GOD View Post
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post
    I'm working on it. If it's anything like it's older brother I should be done in about 18 months.
    No it was not you he wanted me to tell you that. He deactivated his account because darksiders got host who worked for him fired. These host provided cards and let him operate freely without worry. He said he still intends to head south for a meeting at charter. Whatever that means he said you would know
    Oh, you know Daniel?
    Yes I know him as Belteshazzar

    He oversaw the pagan magicians of Babylon Among other things

  6. #246
    Ok Nebuchadnezzar.

  7. #247
    Prozema, have you made public your final BD models?

  8. #248
    Originally Posted by aplowroller View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    From just looking at the video it looks like a big multiplier in the 4th column might be a key play.
    the column number doesn't make a difference. You are looking for big multipliers. For one spin if i see a 7x or more I am playing it. For multiple spins I would probably need two multipliers above 12 and I would play until I hit one or I would need the total of all the multipliers to be above 25. Just my early take on the game, I could be wrong.
    My limited experience agrees with this

  9. #249
    Originally Posted by radicalwin View Post
    Originally Posted by aplowroller View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    From just looking at the video it looks like a big multiplier in the 4th column might be a key play.
    the column number doesn't make a difference. You are looking for big multipliers. For one spin if i see a 7x or more I am playing it. For multiple spins I would probably need two multipliers above 12 and I would play until I hit one or I would need the total of all the multipliers to be above 25. Just my early take on the game, I could be wrong.

    My limited experience agrees with this
    I came across a bank of those new WOF’s yesterday. I’m thinking a one spin play on big multiplier in one of the first 3 columns if the next spin makes it eligible.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  10. #250
    Originally Posted by smurgerburger View Post
    Prozema, have you made public your final BD models?
    I have not. Probably no point in it now. There seem to me a fair number of calculators floating around out there already. The people who contributed data points already have copies of the monster data set.

  11. #251
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post
    Originally Posted by smurgerburger View Post
    Prozema, have you made public your final BD models?
    I have not. Probably no point in it now. There seem to me a fair number of calculators floating around out there already. The people who contributed data points already have copies of the monster data set.
    Well here is +1 vote for releasing.

    I have an old calculator based on Mickey's data but I think it's not very good for the larger than minimum denominations.

  12. #252
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by radicalwin View Post
    Originally Posted by aplowroller View Post

    the column number doesn't make a difference. You are looking for big multipliers. For one spin if i see a 7x or more I am playing it. For multiple spins I would probably need two multipliers above 12 and I would play until I hit one or I would need the total of all the multipliers to be above 25. Just my early take on the game, I could be wrong.

    My limited experience agrees with this
    I came across a bank of those new WOF’s yesterday. I’m thinking a one spin play on big multiplier in one of the first 3 columns if the next spin makes it eligible.
    I came up with a total of 30 on the multipliers but with most of these things that have larger number I go with my gut (and likely leave money out there...) I should play it more but I for some reason sorta skip over this game but I have no good reason why except maybe no real luck on any pays so I just started to ignore it.
    It is official. Redietz will never be on Dan Druff's podcast. "too much integrity"

  13. #253
    If it appears the purple and rainbow meters are the same rate on Timberwolf Diamond, I suggest running immediately.

  14. #254
    Posts 201 thru 207 make mention of the $6 max versions of this game, but without much detail. At first blush, it seems something's not quite right. So I can pay $4 and have a chance to win a life-changing progressive of $500,000+ OR I can pay $6 and have a chance to win $10,000? Hmmm, let me think... Obviously there's more to it than that. Having found nothing helpful in cyberspace, I thought I'd present my own hypothesis and am hoping for comments from the experts.

    The bonus feature seems to work as follows:

    Upon receiving three "Wheel" symbols, the Price-Is-Right wheel appears. There are five possible outcomes:

    A% chance of winning the Grand Jackpot
    B% chance of winning the banked 4x free spins
    C% chance of winning the banked 3x free spins
    D% chance of winning the banked 2x free spins
    E% chance of winning 8-15 1x free spins

    At max bet, E=0 so that's pretty straight forward and consistent between the $4 and $6 versions. My hypothesis for A is as follows:

    $4 max - A is an infinitesimally small probability of winning an astronomical large progressive jackpot and thus can be ignored for analysis purposes

    $6 max - A is a smallish, but not zero, probability of winning a moderate jackpot. I say moderate because $10,000 is something like 2x or 3x what one might win via the 4x free spins on a great run.

    So how to analyze this? The game itself is already complex and yet another factor to consider? Sheesh. After giving this much thought, I decided the simplest means of analysis was to look at the $2 premium as a game unto itself. Considering ONLY the $2 premium, perhaps it works something like this...

    The wheel appears somewhere around once per 135 spins. Over the course of 5,000 spins, approximately 37 wheels will appear. Over the course of 5,000 spins, $10,000 in premiums will have been paid via the extra $2 wager. So IF the chance of winning the $10,000 Grand Jackpot were 1-in-37, the RTP would be 100% for the $2 game-unto-itself. If the programmed chance of winning is 1-in-43, then the RTP is 84% according to the following:

    43 wheels x 135 spins per wheel = 5,805 spins
    37 wheels x 135 spins per wheel = 5,000 spins

    So an extra 805 spins x $2 = $1,610 on a $10,000 jackpot (i.e. 16% --> 84% RTP)

    Does that sound like a reasonable way to look at this? In other words, it's the same $4 max game with an additional $2 -EV game layered on top, the RTP for which we'll never know without some very costly empirical evidence. Thoughts?

    My first post! Hope it was helpful

  15. #255
    The odds of hitting the grand is 1 in 8.33m (good luck finding that machine) to 1 in 16m depending on the chip. As a result you have at least a 0.51% RTP difference at reset between the 500k grand and the 10k grand.

    There is no extra premium between the $6 and $4 bet levels. $6 is 6x bet and $4 is 4x bet. With the exception of the grand which is basically impossible to hit they are the same game.
    Last edited by Prozema; 03-23-2023 at 10:39 AM.

  16. #256
    Originally Posted by wowsignal View Post
    Posts 201 thru 207 make mention of the $6 max versions of this game, but without much detail. At first blush, it seems something's not quite right. So I can pay $4 and have a chance to win a life-changing progressive of $500,000+ OR I can pay $6 and have a chance to win $10,000? Hmmm, let me think... Obviously there's more to it than that. Having found nothing helpful in cyberspace, I thought I'd present my own hypothesis and am hoping for comments from the experts.

    The bonus feature seems to work as follows:

    Upon receiving three "Wheel" symbols, the Price-Is-Right wheel appears. There are five possible outcomes:

    A% chance of winning the Grand Jackpot
    B% chance of winning the banked 4x free spins
    C% chance of winning the banked 3x free spins
    D% chance of winning the banked 2x free spins
    E% chance of winning 8-15 1x free spins

    At max bet, E=0 so that's pretty straight forward and consistent between the $4 and $6 versions. My hypothesis for A is as follows:

    $4 max - A is an infinitesimally small probability of winning an astronomical large progressive jackpot and thus can be ignored for analysis purposes

    $6 max - A is a smallish, but not zero, probability of winning a moderate jackpot. I say moderate because $10,000 is something like 2x or 3x what one might win via the 4x free spins on a great run.

    So how to analyze this? The game itself is already complex and yet another factor to consider? Sheesh. After giving this much thought, I decided the simplest means of analysis was to look at the $2 premium as a game unto itself. Considering ONLY the $2 premium, perhaps it works something like this...

    The wheel appears somewhere around once per 135 spins. Over the course of 5,000 spins, approximately 37 wheels will appear. Over the course of 5,000 spins, $10,000 in premiums will have been paid via the extra $2 wager. So IF the chance of winning the $10,000 Grand Jackpot were 1-in-37, the RTP would be 100% for the $2 game-unto-itself. If the programmed chance of winning is 1-in-43, then the RTP is 84% according to the following:

    43 wheels x 135 spins per wheel = 5,805 spins
    37 wheels x 135 spins per wheel = 5,000 spins

    So an extra 805 spins x $2 = $1,610 on a $10,000 jackpot (i.e. 16% --> 84% RTP)

    Does that sound like a reasonable way to look at this? In other words, it's the same $4 max game with an additional $2 -EV game layered on top, the RTP for which we'll never know without some very costly empirical evidence. Thoughts?

    My first post! Hope it was helpful
    I was chatting with Seth Shostak about this game and he said the variance is fiendish.

  17. #257
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by wowsignal View Post
    Posts 201 thru 207 make mention of the $6 max versions of this game, but without much detail. At first blush, it seems something's not quite right. So I can pay $4 and have a chance to win a life-changing progressive of $500,000+ OR I can pay $6 and have a chance to win $10,000? Hmmm, let me think... Obviously there's more to it than that. Having found nothing helpful in cyberspace, I thought I'd present my own hypothesis and am hoping for comments from the experts.

    The bonus feature seems to work as follows:

    Upon receiving three "Wheel" symbols, the Price-Is-Right wheel appears. There are five possible outcomes:

    A% chance of winning the Grand Jackpot
    B% chance of winning the banked 4x free spins
    C% chance of winning the banked 3x free spins
    D% chance of winning the banked 2x free spins
    E% chance of winning 8-15 1x free spins

    At max bet, E=0 so that's pretty straight forward and consistent between the $4 and $6 versions. My hypothesis for A is as follows:

    $4 max - A is an infinitesimally small probability of winning an astronomical large progressive jackpot and thus can be ignored for analysis purposes

    $6 max - A is a smallish, but not zero, probability of winning a moderate jackpot. I say moderate because $10,000 is something like 2x or 3x what one might win via the 4x free spins on a great run.

    So how to analyze this? The game itself is already complex and yet another factor to consider? Sheesh. After giving this much thought, I decided the simplest means of analysis was to look at the $2 premium as a game unto itself. Considering ONLY the $2 premium, perhaps it works something like this...

    The wheel appears somewhere around once per 135 spins. Over the course of 5,000 spins, approximately 37 wheels will appear. Over the course of 5,000 spins, $10,000 in premiums will have been paid via the extra $2 wager. So IF the chance of winning the $10,000 Grand Jackpot were 1-in-37, the RTP would be 100% for the $2 game-unto-itself. If the programmed chance of winning is 1-in-43, then the RTP is 84% according to the following:

    43 wheels x 135 spins per wheel = 5,805 spins
    37 wheels x 135 spins per wheel = 5,000 spins

    So an extra 805 spins x $2 = $1,610 on a $10,000 jackpot (i.e. 16% --> 84% RTP)

    Does that sound like a reasonable way to look at this? In other words, it's the same $4 max game with an additional $2 -EV game layered on top, the RTP for which we'll never know without some very costly empirical evidence. Thoughts?

    My first post! Hope it was helpful
    I was chatting with Seth Shostak about this game and he said the variance is fiendish.
    By my stats the $4 Buffalo Diamonds have a 61% drop in the main game with a wheel freq. of 126.

    Thats a cost of 2.44 a spin. If you go 200 or 300 games to catch the wheel you've dug a big hole. The variance IS fiendish.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  18. #258
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by wowsignal View Post
    Posts 201 thru 207 make mention of the $6 max versions of this game, but without much detail. At first blush, it seems something's not quite right. So I can pay $4 and have a chance to win a life-changing progressive of $500,000+ OR I can pay $6 and have a chance to win $10,000? Hmmm, let me think... Obviously there's more to it than that. Having found nothing helpful in cyberspace, I thought I'd present my own hypothesis and am hoping for comments from the experts.

    The bonus feature seems to work as follows:

    Upon receiving three "Wheel" symbols, the Price-Is-Right wheel appears. There are five possible outcomes:

    A% chance of winning the Grand Jackpot
    B% chance of winning the banked 4x free spins
    C% chance of winning the banked 3x free spins
    D% chance of winning the banked 2x free spins
    E% chance of winning 8-15 1x free spins

    At max bet, E=0 so that's pretty straight forward and consistent between the $4 and $6 versions. My hypothesis for A is as follows:

    $4 max - A is an infinitesimally small probability of winning an astronomical large progressive jackpot and thus can be ignored for analysis purposes

    $6 max - A is a smallish, but not zero, probability of winning a moderate jackpot. I say moderate because $10,000 is something like 2x or 3x what one might win via the 4x free spins on a great run.

    So how to analyze this? The game itself is already complex and yet another factor to consider? Sheesh. After giving this much thought, I decided the simplest means of analysis was to look at the $2 premium as a game unto itself. Considering ONLY the $2 premium, perhaps it works something like this...

    The wheel appears somewhere around once per 135 spins. Over the course of 5,000 spins, approximately 37 wheels will appear. Over the course of 5,000 spins, $10,000 in premiums will have been paid via the extra $2 wager. So IF the chance of winning the $10,000 Grand Jackpot were 1-in-37, the RTP would be 100% for the $2 game-unto-itself. If the programmed chance of winning is 1-in-43, then the RTP is 84% according to the following:

    43 wheels x 135 spins per wheel = 5,805 spins
    37 wheels x 135 spins per wheel = 5,000 spins

    So an extra 805 spins x $2 = $1,610 on a $10,000 jackpot (i.e. 16% --> 84% RTP)

    Does that sound like a reasonable way to look at this? In other words, it's the same $4 max game with an additional $2 -EV game layered on top, the RTP for which we'll never know without some very costly empirical evidence. Thoughts?

    My first post! Hope it was helpful
    I was chatting with Seth Shostak about this game and he said the variance is fiendish.
    By my stats the $4 Buffalo Diamonds have a 61% drop in the main game with a wheel freq. of 126.

    Thats a cost of 2.44 a spin. If you go 200 or 300 games to catch the wheel you've dug a big hole. The variance IS fiendish.
    I saw a guy chase a 4X once. I think it started around 250 games or so IIRC. I returned about 30 hours later give or take and he was still chasing it and it was in the high 4xx of banked games (IIRC). His face was bone white and he was sweating like a horse. I still saw him around, but not nearly as much after that play. I don't chase the 4X and I totally get that I am giving up EV and I don't care.

    BTW great job on this week's GWAE - fun episode.

  19. #259
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by wowsignal View Post
    Posts 201 thru 207 make mention of the $6 max versions of this game, but without much detail. At first blush, it seems something's not quite right. So I can pay $4 and have a chance to win a life-changing progressive of $500,000+ OR I can pay $6 and have a chance to win $10,000? Hmmm, let me think... Obviously there's more to it than that. Having found nothing helpful in cyberspace, I thought I'd present my own hypothesis and am hoping for comments from the experts.

    The bonus feature seems to work as follows:

    Upon receiving three "Wheel" symbols, the Price-Is-Right wheel appears. There are five possible outcomes:

    A% chance of winning the Grand Jackpot
    B% chance of winning the banked 4x free spins
    C% chance of winning the banked 3x free spins
    D% chance of winning the banked 2x free spins
    E% chance of winning 8-15 1x free spins

    At max bet, E=0 so that's pretty straight forward and consistent between the $4 and $6 versions. My hypothesis for A is as follows:

    $4 max - A is an infinitesimally small probability of winning an astronomical large progressive jackpot and thus can be ignored for analysis purposes

    $6 max - A is a smallish, but not zero, probability of winning a moderate jackpot. I say moderate because $10,000 is something like 2x or 3x what one might win via the 4x free spins on a great run.

    So how to analyze this? The game itself is already complex and yet another factor to consider? Sheesh. After giving this much thought, I decided the simplest means of analysis was to look at the $2 premium as a game unto itself. Considering ONLY the $2 premium, perhaps it works something like this...

    The wheel appears somewhere around once per 135 spins. Over the course of 5,000 spins, approximately 37 wheels will appear. Over the course of 5,000 spins, $10,000 in premiums will have been paid via the extra $2 wager. So IF the chance of winning the $10,000 Grand Jackpot were 1-in-37, the RTP would be 100% for the $2 game-unto-itself. If the programmed chance of winning is 1-in-43, then the RTP is 84% according to the following:

    43 wheels x 135 spins per wheel = 5,805 spins
    37 wheels x 135 spins per wheel = 5,000 spins

    So an extra 805 spins x $2 = $1,610 on a $10,000 jackpot (i.e. 16% --> 84% RTP)

    Does that sound like a reasonable way to look at this? In other words, it's the same $4 max game with an additional $2 -EV game layered on top, the RTP for which we'll never know without some very costly empirical evidence. Thoughts?

    My first post! Hope it was helpful
    I was chatting with Seth Shostak about this game and he said the variance is fiendish.
    Hahaha! It took me 12 hours after seeing this but I just got the joke

  20. #260
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by wowsignal View Post
    Posts 201 thru 207 make mention of the $6 max versions of this game, but without much detail. At first blush, it seems something's not quite right. So I can pay $4 and have a chance to win a life-changing progressive of $500,000+ OR I can pay $6 and have a chance to win $10,000? Hmmm, let me think... Obviously there's more to it than that. Having found nothing helpful in cyberspace, I thought I'd present my own hypothesis and am hoping for comments from the experts.

    The bonus feature seems to work as follows:

    Upon receiving three "Wheel" symbols, the Price-Is-Right wheel appears. There are five possible outcomes:

    A% chance of winning the Grand Jackpot
    B% chance of winning the banked 4x free spins
    C% chance of winning the banked 3x free spins
    D% chance of winning the banked 2x free spins
    E% chance of winning 8-15 1x free spins

    At max bet, E=0 so that's pretty straight forward and consistent between the $4 and $6 versions. My hypothesis for A is as follows:

    $4 max - A is an infinitesimally small probability of winning an astronomical large progressive jackpot and thus can be ignored for analysis purposes

    $6 max - A is a smallish, but not zero, probability of winning a moderate jackpot. I say moderate because $10,000 is something like 2x or 3x what one might win via the 4x free spins on a great run.

    So how to analyze this? The game itself is already complex and yet another factor to consider? Sheesh. After giving this much thought, I decided the simplest means of analysis was to look at the $2 premium as a game unto itself. Considering ONLY the $2 premium, perhaps it works something like this...

    The wheel appears somewhere around once per 135 spins. Over the course of 5,000 spins, approximately 37 wheels will appear. Over the course of 5,000 spins, $10,000 in premiums will have been paid via the extra $2 wager. So IF the chance of winning the $10,000 Grand Jackpot were 1-in-37, the RTP would be 100% for the $2 game-unto-itself. If the programmed chance of winning is 1-in-43, then the RTP is 84% according to the following:

    43 wheels x 135 spins per wheel = 5,805 spins
    37 wheels x 135 spins per wheel = 5,000 spins

    So an extra 805 spins x $2 = $1,610 on a $10,000 jackpot (i.e. 16% --> 84% RTP)

    Does that sound like a reasonable way to look at this? In other words, it's the same $4 max game with an additional $2 -EV game layered on top, the RTP for which we'll never know without some very costly empirical evidence. Thoughts?

    My first post! Hope it was helpful
    I was chatting with Seth Shostak about this game and he said the variance is fiendish.
    Hahaha! It took me 12 hours after seeing this but I just got the joke
    Cheers M8.

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