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Thread: Guidelines for AP play on Buffalo Diamond slots

  1. #1
    For those that AP these, what are your minimum starting numbers on the grid?

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER View Post
    For those that AP these, what are your minimum starting numbers on the grid?
    Currently, on the 75 bet level my stats show 48 as the breakeven on the 2X, 106 on the 3X, and 181 on the 4X. My database for the higher bet levels is not large enough to draw any conclusions yet.
    The hard left considers run of the mill liberals to be usefull idiots.

  3. #3
    Is this with the other two meters at reset values or being treated as zeros?

  4. #4
    This is Barney,

    I have not seen such a device but would it not be similar to the Harley slut machine device where the break points are independent of bet level given constant reel frequency and proportional payback for each betting level?

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER View Post
    For those that AP these, what are your minimum starting numbers on the grid?
    Currently, on the 75 bet level my stats show 48 as the breakeven on the 2X, 106 on the 3X, and 181 on the 4X. My database for the higher bet levels is not large enough to draw any conclusions yet.

    I hear what ya saying about your personal stats, but this is no way near accurate.
    Would play any denomination on the bottom at 40 or higher

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER View Post
    For those that AP these, what are your minimum starting numbers on the grid?
    Currently, on the 75 bet level my stats show 48 as the breakeven on the 2X, 106 on the 3X, and 181 on the 4X. My database for the higher bet levels is not large enough to draw any conclusions yet.

    I hear what ya saying about your personal stats, but this is no way near accurate.
    Would play any denomination on the bottom at 40 or higher
    Presumably you have a source more authoritative than Mickey's stats?

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Barney View Post
    This is Barney,

    I have not seen such a device but would it not be similar to the Harley slut machine device where the break points are independent of bet level given constant reel frequency and proportional payback for each betting level?
    There are a couple of reasons this is not so. The biggest is that instead of getting awarded a mini/maxi/mega bonus round directly on the reels you win a chance to spin the wheel. The wheel gives you a chance to win the 2x/3x/4x bonus rounds but also varying numbers of 1x bonus games. The number of 1x bonus games you can win on the wheel varies with the bet level, and at the highest denomination you can only win 2x/3x/4x.

    Watch someone play until they get a bonus round on YouTube and you'll see what I mean.

    So at the very least the frequency of 2x rounds is far higher at the highest bet level, but also it seems likely that 3x and 4x frequencies get at least a little higher as you go up in bet level.

    Also it's possible the bonus reels are lowered in value as you increase your bet in order to offset the inflated number of bonus games (it's something like 8 or 10 at .75 vs 25 at 2.50) and the higher frequency of 2x and 3x).

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by smurgerburger View Post
    Originally Posted by Barney View Post
    This is Barney,

    I have not seen such a device but would it not be similar to the Harley slut machine device where the break points are independent of bet level given constant reel frequency and proportional payback for each betting level?
    There are a couple of reasons this is not so. The biggest is that instead of getting awarded a mini/maxi/mega bonus round directly on the reels you win a chance to spin the wheel. The wheel gives you a chance to win the 2x/3x/4x bonus rounds but also varying numbers of 1x bonus games. The number of 1x bonus games you can win on the wheel varies with the bet level, and at the highest denomination you can only win 2x/3x/4x.

    Watch someone play until they get a bonus round on YouTube and you'll see what I mean.

    So at the very least the frequency of 2x rounds is far higher at the highest bet level, but also it seems likely that 3x and 4x frequencies get at least a little higher as you go up in bet level.

    Also it's possible the bonus reels are lowered in value as you increase your bet in order to offset the inflated number of bonus games (it's something like 8 or 10 at .75 vs 25 at 2.50) and the higher frequency of 2x and 3x).
    You know just enough about buffalo diamonds to go out and get yourself beat.
    The hard left considers run of the mill liberals to be usefull idiots.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER View Post
    For those that AP these, what are your minimum starting numbers on the grid?
    Currently, on the 75 bet level my stats show 48 as the breakeven on the 2X, 106 on the 3X, and 181 on the 4X. My database for the higher bet levels is not large enough to draw any conclusions yet.

    I hear what ya saying about your personal stats, but this is no way near accurate.
    Would play any denomination on the bottom at 40 or higher

    Put your stats up. I’ll put my stats up. Or are you just running your mouth?
    The hard left considers run of the mill liberals to be usefull idiots.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER View Post
    For those that AP these, what are your minimum starting numbers on the grid?
    Currently, on the 75 bet level my stats show 48 as the breakeven on the 2X, 106 on the 3X, and 181 on the 4X. My database for the higher bet levels is not large enough to draw any conclusions yet.

    I hear what ya saying about your personal stats, but this is no way near accurate.
    Would play any denomination on the bottom at 40 or higher
    Boy, did I step in it. You clearly asked the question about starting numbers like you were a novice on the game. You were obviously setting me up. I had no idea you are an expert on the game. Please, could you share your expertise with us? Here are some questions you should have no problem answering. Let's not muddy it up by discussing all the bet levels at the same time. They all have different configurations. These questions are for the 75 level.

    1. What is the combined payback percentage for the main game plus 1X freespins?
    2. What is the average number of spins for catching the wheel in the main game?
    3. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 2X?
    4. What is the average value of a banked 2X freespin? How many units is each spin worth?
    5. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 3X?
    6. What is the average value of a banked 3X freespin?
    7. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 4X?
    8. What is the average value of a banked 4X freespin.
    9. What is the overall payback percentage of the game?
    10. How many sockpuppets do you have?

    Thank you so much in advance for sharing your expertise with us. We eagerly await your learned answers.
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 06-20-2019 at 01:32 AM.
    The hard left considers run of the mill liberals to be usefull idiots.

  11. #11
    Been playing any bottom at 36 if middle at least 28 or higher and 28 on the bottom for the max coin if the middle is at least 24(since all wheels are 2x-3x-4x)

    The only stats keep are times played W-L and profits with biggest loss and biggest win noted, to date those are as follows.


    36-8 +$2,484 with biggest win $843 and biggest loss $230 in a very, very small sampling.


    Not big into these as other machines and that was the reason for inquiry thinking possibly could play these at lower starting points.

    Travel all over Nevada and California and the past two weeks have had only one play using my criteria above.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm;89397[/QUOTE

    Boy, did I step in it. You clearly asked the question about starting numbers like you were a novice on the game. You were obviously setting me up. I had no idea you are an expert on the game. Please, could you share your expertise with us? Here are some questions you should have no problem answering. Let's not muddy it up by discussing all the bet levels at the same time. They all have different configurations. These questions are for the 75 level.

    1. What is the combined payback percentage for the main game plus 1X freespins?
    2. What is the average number of spins for catching the wheel in the main game?
    3. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 2X?
    4. What is the average value of a banked 2X freespin? How many units is each spin worth?
    5. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 3X?
    6. What is the average value of a banked 3X freespin?
    7. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 4X?
    8. What is the average value of a banked 4X freespin.
    9. What is the overall payback percentage of the game?
    10. How many sockpuppets do you have?

    Thank you so much in advance for sharing your expertise with us. We eagerly await your learned answers.
    Piggy Banker, in your last post you accidentally forgot to answer any of my questions. I gave them a bump to jog your memory. Thank you for any help you can give on these various questions.
    The hard left considers run of the mill liberals to be usefull idiots.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Currently, on the 75 bet level my stats show 48 as the breakeven on the 2X, 106 on the 3X, and 181 on the 4X. My database for the higher bet levels is not large enough to draw any conclusions yet.

    I hear what ya saying about your personal stats, but this is no way near accurate.
    Would play any denomination on the bottom at 40 or higher
    Boy, did I step in it. You clearly asked the question about starting numbers like you were a novice on the game. You were obviously setting me up. I had no idea you are an expert on the game. Please, could you share your expertise with us? Here are some questions you should have no problem answering. Let's not muddy it up by discussing all the bet levels at the same time. They all have different configurations. These questions are for the 75 level.

    1. What is the combined payback percentage for the main game plus 1X freespins?
    2. What is the average number of spins for catching the wheel in the main game?
    3. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 2X?
    4. What is the average value of a banked 2X freespin? How many units is each spin worth?
    5. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 3X?
    6. What is the average value of a banked 3X freespin?
    7. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 4X?
    8. What is the average value of a banked 4X freespin.
    9. What is the overall payback percentage of the game?
    10. How many sockpuppets do you have?

    Thank you so much in advance for sharing your expertise with us. We eagerly await your learned answers.
    I have no clue as I've only played the game a little bit without tracking anything. I have never seen the game with the numbers you claim are needed for it to be a play. IIRC
    I don't think there is much value to be found in this game but could be wrong. I'd like to guess at all your questions. Let me know if I'm close.
    1. 50%
    2. 125
    3. 1000
    4. 1.5x
    5. 2000
    6. 2.5x
    7. 5000
    8. 2x
    9. 85%
    10. At least 5
    Last edited by MaxPen; 06-20-2019 at 09:53 PM.

  14. #14
    Don't know either, hopefully someone lists some parameters they play at other than what I've posted, with my parameters, expecting a play about once every 13 days,
    Sorry for late response, this site allows me only 1-5 posts per day.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER View Post


    I hear what ya saying about your personal stats, but this is no way near accurate.
    Would play any denomination on the bottom at 40 or higher
    Boy, did I step in it. You clearly asked the question about starting numbers like you were a novice on the game. You were obviously setting me up. I had no idea you are an expert on the game. Please, could you share your expertise with us? Here are some questions you should have no problem answering. Let's not muddy it up by discussing all the bet levels at the same time. They all have different configurations. These questions are for the 75 level.

    1. What is the combined payback percentage for the main game plus 1X freespins?
    2. What is the average number of spins for catching the wheel in the main game?
    3. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 2X?
    4. What is the average value of a banked 2X freespin? How many units is each spin worth?
    5. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 3X?
    6. What is the average value of a banked 3X freespin?
    7. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 4X?
    8. What is the average value of a banked 4X freespin.
    9. What is the overall payback percentage of the game?
    10. How many sockpuppets do you have?

    Thank you so much in advance for sharing your expertise with us. We eagerly await your learned answers.
    I have no clue as I've only played the game a little bit without tracking anything. I have never seen the game with the numbers you claim are needed for it to be a play. IIRC
    I don't think there is much value to be found in this game but could be wrong. I'd like to guess at all your questions. Let me know if I'm close.
    1. 50%
    2. 125
    3. 1000
    4. 1.5x
    5. 2000
    6. 2.5x
    7. 5000
    8. 2x
    9. 85%
    10. At least 5
    Thanks, Max, for giving me a lot of work to do here. It's really made my day. Not!

    First, all of the bet levels are their own animals. It's a difference like night and day between the 75 level and the 400 level. Each bet level is tracked separately. I have a big database on the 75 level as it it where the bulk of my stats come from because that is the level that gets most of the action from the rec players. So the answers here all apply to the 75 level.

    1. 33K spins tracked on the main game and 1X freespins combined. Return is 62.8%.

    2. 34K spins tracked. Average to catch wheel = 146.42

    3. Wheels to date, 378. Wheel spins that produced the 2X = 92. Avg. 4.11 spins per 2X.

    4. I attribute all of the payback in the freespins to the initial number of games awarded. The extra freespins awarded are part of the value of the initial freespins awarded. This keeps it simple. If I''m awarded 47 freespins on the 2X and wind up with 57 spins that payed 220 bets then all of those bets returned are attributed to the original 47 spins.

    1889 2X freespins tracked. Return = 6718 bets. Avg. 3.556 bets per spin.

    5. 378 wheel spins have produced the 3X freespins 19 times. Avg. 19.89

    6. 1819 3X freespins have returned 10,651 bets. Avg. 5.855 bets per spin.

    7. 378 wheel spins have produced the 4X free games 6 times. Avg. 63

    8. 602 4X freespins have returned 4489 bets. Avg. 7.4568 bets per spins.

    9. My stats put the game with all meters at reset at 85.4%

    Keep in mind that I'm still adding stats to the sample space as I get plays. These are my current numbers. they can change. But at this point I don't look for them to change much.
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 06-21-2019 at 06:39 AM.
    The hard left considers run of the mill liberals to be usefull idiots.

  16. #16
    My data is starting to look like higher bet levels are dropping the payback on the main reels. Not enough spins to make that a firm position, but that's what I'm thinking at the moment.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post
    My data is starting to look like higher bet levels are dropping the payback on the main reels. Not enough spins to make that a firm position, but that's what I'm thinking at the moment.
    I think it would be rare to find the lower denoms at a playable level, due to how the bonus works.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post
    My data is starting to look like higher bet levels are dropping the payback on the main reels. Not enough spins to make that a firm position, but that's what I'm thinking at the moment.
    I think it would be rare to find the lower denoms at a playable level, due to how the bonus works.
    Also, there is usually a line. Crazy popular game.

    I have to go watch some YouTube videos or something. I just don't want to believe the main reels are programed to hold 65% at max bet.

  19. #19
    This math is for the 75 level.

    I've pretty much quit collecting most stats on the 75 level of Buffalo Diamonds. But I'm still interested in the frequency of catching the wheel. Up thru about 20K spins it was averaging around 136. Then another 14K spins jumped it up to 146. I'm hoping that's an anomaly and will drop back down. It's a key number in figuring plays on the BD's. The lower the better.

    And I'm still interested in the frequencies on the wheel for catching 2X,3x,4X so still track that.

    Everything I put up here is by my stats. Others stats may look a little different but here we go.

    It's hard to find just a straight up number to play like finding the 2X on 55 or something like that. The same with the 3X. So I'm doing either/or plays and that seems to be where the most opportunity is.

    I use a base game of 69%. The main game plus 1X = 62.8%. Now I can throw in the meter rate. I have 6.3% on the 2X and 5.6% on the 3X. So I came up with a compromise meter speed of 6.2%. You'll hit the 2X almost 5 times for every one time you hit the 3X. So I have a base game of 69%.

    I use decimal points to determine playable numbers. The first is on the 2X. The value of a 2X freespin is 3.556. The freq. of catching the 2X is 602 games. This 602 is derived from multiplying the wheel frequency, 146.46 by the frequency of catching the 2X on the wheel, 4.11.

    So the decimal is 3.556/602 = .0059.

    Same formula for the 3X. and the decimal is .002

    Same formula for the 4X and the decimal is .008

    So I'm in the casino and come across a Buffalo Diamond with this configuration:

    4X = 56
    3X = 48
    2X = 34

    Base game 69%
    4X 56 X .008 = 4.48%
    3X 48 X .002 = 9.6%
    2X 34 X .0059 = 20.06%

    It adds up to 103%. What you can expect on plays like this is short term losses when you go out on the 2X and get your paydays when you hit the 3X/4X.
    The hard left considers run of the mill liberals to be usefull idiots.

  20. #20
    Those are the same type of plays I'm finding as well. I think I've gotten 2 or 3 2x at or near the break even on their own.

    I've been using the 2x as a type of loss rebate so I don't get stuck chasing a pure 3x. I want a little more than 3% to chase a 1 in 3000 shot... It's a little better if it's a 3x or 4x play.

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