$2 FullPay dueces downtown

[mickeycrimm]

I too am waiting for that explanation.

But it's an overall interesting story. Earlier today I called and talked to a shift boss, claiming I was a journalist with an online gaming discussion site. First thing he said was someone saying they were from Las Vegas Advisor stopped in this week and asked if they were closing their doors.

He laughed while he said that and asked if that's what I was calling for. I said no--all I wanted was to know why so many pay table increases like the FPDW's up to $2 and the multi-denom/multi-plays. He said they made the decision to up many of the pay tables and so far it's been the right decision. He wouldn't explain why. He also touted 10/6 ddbp and 10/7 dbp.

They know what they're doing, but who knows if they REALLY know what they're doing. It doesn't appear to be any sort of database exercise, and while it could be pulled at any time, it has lasted for longer than most people would have expected it to.

Rob, why the fuck would you do that? Innocent reasoning or not, that's completely fucked up, theres no reason to bring that kind of attention to the play. Obviously the casino isn't blind, but even if theres a slight chance you calling brought any more attention to it, well, that's just BS. THIS IS THE REASON ONE SHOULD NOT BE POSTING UP ABOUT PLAYS ON THE INTERNET. NM Rob, I have to imagine there are Dark-siders and jellouse people who would call the casino for whatever nefarious reasons they might have. It only takes one wrong person to happen upon one informational post that completely fucks up a really good play. Perhaps not this one (I dont count this as a really good play) but the next or or the one after that. I mean look what Dark OZ did on WOV. Due to his lack of knowledge regarding AP he posted up something because he knew nothing about it. Yet, it fucked up the $5 machines. And then theres some asshole taking pictures of AP's and this play and then posting it on twitter is complete BS as well.

Well, for the simple reason that it was posted about here, it's not something you see everyday, people are asking questions and opining about it, and it's an interesting story so I did what I used to do for GT and I did a little digging out of curiosity. If I weren't sitting around waiting for this foot to heal I may have looked right past it, and if there wasn't a thread about it most of us would have never known until it was over.

Rob, you said the guy you talked to said he got a call from Las Vegas Adviser. I haven't been over to his site but you can bet your ass that Anthony Curtis highly touted this play in his rag. It's been well known for years by AP's that you don't tell Anthony Curtis anything.

[Rob.Singer]

Yes it was someone from there who came in and talked to them about the sudden change. They'll probably be all over DTG again as soon as these machines come back down to earth.

[jbjb]

Just look at the publicity the joint is getting from all of this. It's exactly what they want. They know damn well that with optimal play the machines will lose money. But most are still playing under 100%. I see this as nothing more than some sort of promo to get people's asses in the door no different than sending all of the geriatric people $5 in free play twice a week. It won't last long

[PIGGY BANKER]

But most are still playing under 100%.

No, they are not.

[jbjb]

But most are still playing under 100%.

No, they are not.

Prove that statement.

[accountinquestion]

There is an Andrew Neeme video. (I guess he is like #1 maybe #2 poker cash game vlogger). Doesn't play super-big, but plays mid-stakes. Typical grinder who can make a decent living for himself but could do it elsewhere if he applied himself. Anyway, I had heard that he put a new video out that discussed this issue of private games in public cardrooms and how they fuck everything up except for a really small number of players. (And arguably the bad players in those games actually lose $ at a slower rate) Anyway.. so I click on video and the first shot is of a 1800 machine receipt from the DTG. He talks about video poker. He talks about the bar down there and drops the name [Go check out Every Woman Band btw when they play. Love em]. Anyway, Andrew's thing looked like a paid advertisement, or perhaps he is looking to become an AP after his whole discussion of the private game situation in Vegas.

I'd post a link but I'm too lazy. Didn't watch the whole thing either.

[AxelWolf]

I too am waiting for that explanation.

But it's an overall interesting story. Earlier today I called and talked to a shift boss, claiming I was a journalist with an online gaming discussion site. First thing he said was someone saying they were from Las Vegas Advisor stopped in this week and asked if they were closing their doors.

He laughed while he said that and asked if that's what I was calling for. I said no--all I wanted was to know why so many pay table increases like the FPDW's up to $2 and the multi-denom/multi-plays. He said they made the decision to up many of the pay tables and so far it's been the right decision. He wouldn't explain why. He also touted 10/6 ddbp and 10/7 dbp.

They know what they're doing, but who knows if they REALLY know what they're doing. It doesn't appear to be any sort of database exercise, and while it could be pulled at any time, it has lasted for longer than most people would have expected it to.

Rob, why the fuck would you do that? Innocent reasoning or not, that's completely fucked up, theres no reason to bring that kind of attention to the play. Obviously the casino isn't blind, but even if theres a slight chance you calling brought any more attention to it, well, that's just BS. THIS IS THE REASON ONE SHOULD NOT BE POSTING UP ABOUT PLAYS ON THE INTERNET. NM Rob, I have to imagine there are Dark-siders and jellouse people who would call the casino for whatever nefarious reasons they might have. It only takes one wrong person to happen upon one informational post that completely fucks up a really good play. Perhaps not this one (I dont count this as a really good play) but the next or or the one after that. I mean look what Dark OZ did on WOV. Due to his lack of knowledge regarding AP he posted up something because he knew nothing about it. Yet, it fucked up the $5 machines. And then theres some asshole taking pictures of AP's and this play and then posting it on twitter is complete BS as well.

Well, for the simple reason that it was posted about here, it's not something you see everyday, people are asking questions and opining about it, and it's an interesting story so I did what I used to do for GT and I did a little digging out of curiosity. If I weren't sitting around waiting for this foot to heal I may have looked right past it, and if there wasn't a thread about it most of us would have never known until it was over.

And that's exactly why people shouldn't be posting up about plays. Anyone with the knowledge skill, bankroll and willingness to play this play this is most likely going to get the information through the grapevine, however, posting information publicly just gives the information to people who can only cause problems for a play.
Why give information about something someone has absolutely no interest in playing themselves, however , they're just going to blast all over Twitter and every other f****** social media platform and Forum in the universe.

[AxelWolf]

Just look at the publicity the joint is getting from all of this. It's exactly what they want. They know damn well that with optimal play the machines will lose money. But most are still playing under 100%. I see this as nothing more than some sort of promo to get people's asses in the door no different than sending all of the geriatric people $5 in free play twice a week. It won't last long

Without putting much thought into it, I have to believe the casino is losing more money from the pros than they are making from the plops at this time. At leas from the gaming side.

[PIGGY BANKER]

But most are still playing under 100%.

No, they are not.

Prove that statement.

90% of the play by pros who can play 100.7 deuces at 100%+ blindfolded.

[Rob.Singer]

C'mon get real. Most of these statements are on the goofy side.

People who know FPDW perfect strategy are obviously in there playing these machines, but NOBODY plays perfectly. Not even the guys who are blindfolded.

Lots of people like to think they know the game optimally and even more like to claim they're AP's. I believe the DTG goal was to generate enormous play for whatever term they require according to their business plan. Lots of legit AP's but also lots of wannabees. It's also not for certain they are losing money on these machines overall. When Wynn put them in at 25c/50c/$1 I was SHOWN the results after it ended because I'm the guy who got them to put them in. They overall made a very small margin for the casino, but because of the non-stop play they got, it was an acceptable profit. Their problem was the commotion the machines caused and the complaints from guests (who flew in to play) about the locals who camped out at the machines, slurping noodles and eating tuna sandwiches while playing. It was too much for Steve Wynn to bear.

[PIGGY BANKER]

They don't all have to play perfectly, but they all know how to play at minimum 100.1%, with most all pros at 100.5% or better.

[Rob.Singer]

Could be, but not enuf to offset the people who don't play so well. And players get fatigued the longer they play, which reduces accuracy. Plus if there's no slot card benefits then there's little back-up. Wynn didn't limit slot card perks.

[AxelWolf]

Could be, but not enuf to offset the people who don't play so well. And players get fatigued the longer they play, which reduces accuracy. Plus if there's no slot card benefits then there's little back-up. Wynn didn't limit slot card perks.

It's a big misconception that people need to play a hundred percent accurate. I think the 0.5 estimate was spot-on that's what I always assume just to be safe. One of those guys can play like3,000 hands perfectly we witnessed him doing it and there's a video showing it. When I talked to him he was fairly confident keep up that pace for many many hours and does. I have no reason to believe he can't and even if he made a few mistakes here in there it's not going to be anywhere near enough to kill his advantage. Rob I'm sure you can do the math and figure out exactly what that guy would be making per hour on a $2 machine. Everyone I seen in there playing are competent good players who are well banked. Off the top of my head I'm going to estimate they are taking $20,000 a day from the casino.

[AxelWolf]

PS. I have no clue if they still have the $2 denominations available, I heard it was no longer.

[PIGGY BANKER]

Could be, but not enuf to offset the people who don't play so well. And players get fatigued the longer they play, which reduces accuracy. Plus if there's no slot card benefits then there's little back-up. Wynn didn't limit slot card perks.

The other players are far and few between, it's a ghost town without the pros there.

[Rob.Singer]

Could be, but not enuf to offset the people who don't play so well. And players get fatigued the longer they play, which reduces accuracy. Plus if there's no slot card benefits then there's little back-up. Wynn didn't limit slot card perks.

It's a big misconception that people need to play a hundred percent accurate. I think the 0.5 estimate was spot-on that's what I always assume just to be safe. One of those guys can play like3,000 hands perfectly we witnessed him doing it and there's a video showing it. When I talked to him he was fairly confident keep up that pace for many many hours and does. I have no reason to believe he can't and even if he made a few mistakes here in there it's not going to be anywhere near enough to kill his advantage. Rob I'm sure you can do the math and figure out exactly what that guy would be making per hour on a $2 machine. Everyone I seen in there playing are competent good players who are well banked. Off the top of my head I'm going to estimate they are taking $20,000 a day from the casino.

I just wish we could get an actual summary of overall casino results from this once it's over. My deal with Wynn was just that, along with the approval to publish the results in my GT article which I did.

If they eliminated slot club benefits from FPDW they didn't slow machines down? 3000 hph is just about a hand per second. Impossible. That has to be some kind of error. As far as accuracy after the first hour for most humans, it does go down as time exponentially increases. I've been involved in several human factors studies, not on gambling but in similarly simple and also more complex tasks.

It all comes down to the ratio of legit pros vs. the rest. Plus some bring friends, spouses or others who sit at tables or play other slots? A smaller casino can keep meaningful track of such stuff whereas a place like Wynn cannot.

I just received an email from a friend who's playing a $2 FPDW machine right now. He's someone who thinks of himself as a pro but really isn't. And I never heard him say he knew anything about DW before this. Maybe they took some out, but not all.

[RS__]

C'mon get real. Most of these statements are on the goofy side.

People who know FPDW perfect strategy are obviously in there playing these machines, but NOBODY plays perfectly. Not even the guys who are blindfolded.

Lots of people like to think they know the game optimally and even more like to claim they're AP's. I believe the DTG goal was to generate enormous play for whatever term they require according to their business plan. Lots of legit AP's but also lots of wannabees. It's also not for certain they are losing money on these machines overall. When Wynn put them in at 25c/50c/$1 I was SHOWN the results after it ended because I'm the guy who got them to put them in. They overall made a very small margin for the casino, but because of the non-stop play they got, it was an acceptable profit. Their problem was the commotion the machines caused and the complaints from guests (who flew in to play) about the locals who camped out at the machines, slurping noodles and eating tuna sandwiches while playing. It was too much for Steve Wynn to bear.

If what you say is true (hint: It's not), then Wynn is a fucking retard for not adding more FPDW machines to the casino.


I haven't been to DTG and don't have much of an interest in playing it unless I can get on a $1 5-play machine. LOL @ it being worth $300/hr. <shake my head emoji> Since I haven't been there, I haven't seen who or what type of people are playing these machines, but I'd have a very tough time believing the casino is winning on those specific games.

[AxelWolf]

Could be, but not enuf to offset the people who don't play so well. And players get fatigued the longer they play, which reduces accuracy. Plus if there's no slot card benefits then there's little back-up. Wynn didn't limit slot card perks.

It's a big misconception that people need to play a hundred percent accurate. I think the 0.5 estimate was spot-on that's what I always assume just to be safe. One of those guys can play like3,000 hands perfectly we witnessed him doing it and there's a video showing it. When I talked to him he was fairly confident keep up that pace for many many hours and does. I have no reason to believe he can't and even if he made a few mistakes here in there it's not going to be anywhere near enough to kill his advantage. Rob I'm sure you can do the math and figure out exactly what that guy would be making per hour on a $2 machine. Everyone I seen in there playing are competent good players who are well banked. Off the top of my head I'm going to estimate they are taking $20,000 a day from the casino.

I just wish we could get an actual summary of overall casino results from this once it's over. My deal with Wynn was just that, along with the approval to publish the results in my GT article which I did.

If they eliminated slot club benefits from FPDW they didn't slow machines down? 3000 hph is just about a hand per second. Impossible. That has to be some kind of error. As far as accuracy after the first hour for most humans, it does go down as time exponentially increases. I've been involved in several human factors studies, not on gambling but in similarly simple and also more complex tasks.

It all comes down to the ratio of legit pros vs. the rest. Plus some bring friends, spouses or others who sit at tables or play other slots? A smaller casino can keep meaningful track of such stuff whereas a place like Wynn cannot.

I just received an email from a friend who's playing a $2 FPDW machine right now. He's someone who thinks of himself as a pro but really isn't. And I never heard him say he knew anything about DW before this. Maybe they took some out, but not all.

you are correct, I also would not consider Alan a pro, it would be actually quite the opposite.

I can't recall exactly how many hands he was playing per hour on two machines, I thought it was around 3,000, I myself didn't believe it was possible I tried to bet against it, he wouldn't allow it because he was absolutely sure he would win. He wasn't there to take anybody's money. Anyways, I'm sure someone here knows exactly the amount of hands and exactly where to locate the video. FYI I believe he can play three machines. I'm not even sure how many machines he's trying attempting to play there or if he's even playing it at this point.

Okay, I went and looked it up, he was able to get out 2,590 I was confused because somebody else said they could get out three thousand hands per hour. Whatever the case, there's no reason this guy can't be making over a hundred twenty five bucks an hour. That's just one guy now imagine there are 15 people there around the clock and they're all averaging about 50 bucks an hour. Now include the $1 V play machines that are going 24 hours. I have no clue what denominations is being played on those the entire time.

[mickeycrimm]

FPDW is an easy game to play 99.54% perfect. There's only 45 moves and almost penalty free. Where I make mistakes in video poker is trying to play to fast or my mind starts wandering/not paying attention.

There was a thread at WoV about the fastest video poker players with the least mistakes. Players were filmed as they were tested. The guy that set the record did something like 1400 hands in a half hour playing two machines. I think that's the way it went. Shack went over the film looking for mistakes and couldn't find one.

I didn't dive bomb into DTG because that play ain't gonna raise my income. I make about the same as that play is worth and it's a hell of a lot easier, and a lot more interesting, than grinding away on video poker all day. However, FPDW is one of the more enjoyable games to play.

[Rob.Singer]

Well whatever the case I believe it's at least a mild surprise that the play is still active.