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Thread: Filing taxes as Professional Gambler do you need to send quarterly payments to IRS

  1. #1
    If you file as a professional gambler are you required to submit quarterly estimated tax payments to the IRS?

    I know some self employed professions require this, but i wasn't finding any information for gamblers on this.

    Thank you

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    If you file as a professional gambler are you required to submit quarterly estimated tax payments to the IRS?

    I know some self employed professions require this, but i wasn't finding any information for gamblers on this.

    Thank you
    When I filed as a professional gambler for 10 years from 2000-2009, I did not submit quarterly estimated tax payments to the IRS. I had two full audits during that time covering four of those years, and not a word was mentioned about that subject.

    That said, I never checked or asked what the regulation was on that issue because I did not want to submit any payments every 3 months so I ignored it. My IRS agent son-in-law guided me on a lot of aspects of filing as a professional gambler straight out of his manuals, but only on items I asked about.

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    If you file as a professional gambler are you required to submit quarterly estimated tax payments to the IRS?

    I know some self employed professions require this, but i wasn't finding any information for gamblers on this.

    Thank you
    When I filed as a professional gambler for 10 years from 2000-2009, I did not submit quarterly estimated tax payments to the IRS. I had two full audits during that time covering four of those years, and not a word was mentioned about that subject.

    That said, I never checked or asked what the regulation was on that issue because I did not want to submit any payments every 3 months so I ignored it. My IRS agent son-in-law guided me on a lot of aspects of filing as a professional gambler straight out of his manuals, but only on items I asked about.
    Thank you for the response Rob. If you dont mind my asking what did they look for on the audits? Im assuming the gambling diary, receipts for expenses, and perhaps bank statements for deposit / withdrawal history?

    Trying to have all my ducks in order so nothing catches me off guard if it happens to me is why i ask.

    Thanks again

  4. #4
    Tax laws and requirements have changed since the period Rob spoke of. Specifically about 5-6 years ago there were some changes that are beneficial to people who claim as a professional player. I recommend you consult a tax specialist who knows gambling tax laws.

    It is my understanding that as a professional player you can set up where you pay estimated tax quarterly, like other businesses do. BUT you don't want to do this. I often experience entire quarters where I am in the red. I want to be able to deduct that from other more profitable quarters. Carryover. We really want to be able to carry over losses from one year to offset some wins from the next. Unfortunately we are limited with this although there are a couple situations.

    If you are filing as a professional player, your chance for an audit increases. Especially after a number of years. This is why it is best to work with a tax professional who knows current gambling tax law.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Tax laws and requirements have changed since the period Rob spoke of. Specifically about 5-6 years ago there were some changes that are beneficial to people who claim as a professional player. I recommend you consult a tax specialist who knows gambling tax laws.

    It is my understanding that as a professional player you can set up where you pay estimated tax quarterly, like other businesses do. BUT you don't want to do this. I often experience entire quarters where I am in the red. I want to be able to deduct that from other more profitable quarters. Carryover. We really want to be able to carry over losses from one year to offset some wins from the next. Unfortunately we are limited with this although there are a couple situations.

    If you are filing as a professional player, your chance for an audit increases. Especially after a number of years. This is why it is best to work with a tax professional who knows current gambling tax law.
    Thank you for the response Kewlj. I had planned to consult a professional at the end of the year but i had read something about certain self employed professions requiring quarterly payments or facing a potential penalty so i was curios about this to avoid any potential penalties.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    If you file as a professional gambler are you required to submit quarterly estimated tax payments to the IRS?

    I know some self employed professions require this, but i wasn't finding any information for gamblers on this.

    Thank you
    When I filed as a professional gambler for 10 years from 2000-2009, I did not submit quarterly estimated tax payments to the IRS. I had two full audits during that time covering four of those years, and not a word was mentioned about that subject.

    That said, I never checked or asked what the regulation was on that issue because I did not want to submit any payments every 3 months so I ignored it. My IRS agent son-in-law guided me on a lot of aspects of filing as a professional gambler straight out of his manuals, but only on items I asked about.
    Thank you for the response Rob. If you dont mind my asking what did they look for on the audits? Im assuming the gambling diary, receipts for expenses, and perhaps bank statements for deposit / withdrawal history?

    Trying to have all my ducks in order so nothing catches me off guard if it happens to me is why i ask.

    Thanks again
    Here's what's imperative: You MUST have a contemporaneous gambling log. On it, you need dates, casinos, amount won (per session), amount lost (per session), and W2G winners. You're required to report every dollar won--not just dollars won via W2G's (if you play a machine for two hours, get no tax forms but win $70 by the end of the session, you're supposed to report that $70 as winnings). I did this as per IRS regulations, however it was beyond the auditors in both audits because they were unfamiliar with the requirement, so I ended up getting a refund after the audit.

    What is NOT required are those casino won/loss records, although some people claim they feel better with them available. The IRS told me those reports are irrelevant because you cannot prove if all of your play was with a slot club card or not. The gambling log is like God to them.

    Also just as important: be ready to identify how and where you obtained the cash to play every session or trip. If you don't have corroborating bank withdrawal statements, credit/debit card withdrawal receipts, cancelled checks, or whatever else, you will be looked at in a suspicious way. That leads to trouble. Don't underestimate this requirement.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post

    When I filed as a professional gambler for 10 years from 2000-2009, I did not submit quarterly estimated tax payments to the IRS. I had two full audits during that time covering four of those years, and not a word was mentioned about that subject.

    That said, I never checked or asked what the regulation was on that issue because I did not want to submit any payments every 3 months so I ignored it. My IRS agent son-in-law guided me on a lot of aspects of filing as a professional gambler straight out of his manuals, but only on items I asked about.
    Thank you for the response Rob. If you dont mind my asking what did they look for on the audits? Im assuming the gambling diary, receipts for expenses, and perhaps bank statements for deposit / withdrawal history?

    Trying to have all my ducks in order so nothing catches me off guard if it happens to me is why i ask.

    Thanks again
    Here's what's imperative: You MUST have a contemporaneous gambling log. On it, you need dates, casinos, amount won (per session), amount lost (per session), and W2G winners. You're required to report every dollar won--not just dollars won via W2G's (if you play a machine for two hours, get no tax forms but win $70 by the end of the session, you're supposed to report that $70 as winnings). I did this as per IRS regulations, however it was beyond the auditors in both audits because they were unfamiliar with the requirement, so I ended up getting a refund after the audit.

    What is NOT required are those casino won/loss records, although some people claim they feel better with them available. The IRS told me those reports are irrelevant because you cannot prove if all of your play was with a slot club card or not. The gambling log is like God to them.

    Also just as important: be ready to identify how and where you obtained the cash to play every session or trip. If you don't have corroborating bank withdrawal statements, credit/debit card withdrawal receipts, cancelled checks, or whatever else, you will be looked at in a suspicious way. That leads to trouble. Don't underestimate this requirement.
    Ron, you say that casino won/loss records are "not required". It is more than that....They are not accepted. Have no meaning to the IRS. BUT generate a number of W2G winners and that can trigger an audit or review. In other words, the casino sending a record of a winning jackpot(s) can trigger investigation/audit, but that same casino's records of TOTAL wins and losses means nothing.

  8. #8
    Personal gambling logs can easily be faked to show losses when you really had wins.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Personal gambling logs can easily be faked to show losses when you really had wins.
    Geez....what a revelation! Is this your way of admitting to something jbjb?

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Personal gambling logs can easily be faked to show losses when you really had wins.
    Geez....what a revelation! Is this your way of admitting to something jbjb?
    No. It just proves that even those are worthless and shouldn't be accepted.

  11. #11
    Correct me if I am wrong but I THINK if all of your wins are under $1200 you don't have to file taxes for those non Jackpot wins.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Tasha View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong but I THINK if all of your wins are under $1200 you don't have to file taxes for those non Jackpot wins.
    This one is easy.....YOU ARE WRONG.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Tasha View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong but I THINK if all of your wins are under $1200 you don't have to file taxes for those non Jackpot wins.
    I'll tell you what though...I wish you were right. I would owe no, or very little taxes as I rarely have winning wagers of $1200, playing blackjack.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post

    When I filed as a professional gambler for 10 years from 2000-2009, I did not submit quarterly estimated tax payments to the IRS. I had two full audits during that time covering four of those years, and not a word was mentioned about that subject.

    That said, I never checked or asked what the regulation was on that issue because I did not want to submit any payments every 3 months so I ignored it. My IRS agent son-in-law guided me on a lot of aspects of filing as a professional gambler straight out of his manuals, but only on items I asked about.
    Thank you for the response Rob. If you dont mind my asking what did they look for on the audits? Im assuming the gambling diary, receipts for expenses, and perhaps bank statements for deposit / withdrawal history?

    Trying to have all my ducks in order so nothing catches me off guard if it happens to me is why i ask.

    Thanks again
    Here's what's imperative: You MUST have a contemporaneous gambling log. On it, you need dates, casinos, amount won (per session), amount lost (per session), and W2G winners. You're required to report every dollar won--not just dollars won via W2G's (if you play a machine for two hours, get no tax forms but win $70 by the end of the session, you're supposed to report that $70 as winnings). I did this as per IRS regulations, however it was beyond the auditors in both audits because they were unfamiliar with the requirement, so I ended up getting a refund after the audit.

    What is NOT required are those casino won/loss records, although some people claim they feel better with them available. The IRS told me those reports are irrelevant because you cannot prove if all of your play was with a slot club card or not. The gambling log is like God to them.

    Also just as important: be ready to identify how and where you obtained the cash to play every session or trip. If you don't have corroborating bank withdrawal statements, credit/debit card withdrawal receipts, cancelled checks, or whatever else, you will be looked at in a suspicious way. That leads to trouble. Don't underestimate this requirement.
    Thanks Rob,

    I do have a paper dairy but with heavy travel i am not always able to keep it immediately updated.

    What i do do though is after every session I text myself the details and the results and update the paper log when able. Never heard if texting yourself was acceptable or not, but figure it should be as the texts have both the time and the location so not only is it contemporaneous but it also proves I was at the casino when I had the wins or losses.

    Interesting about documenting the source of the money. Wasnt aware of that and that is very helpful, i will make sure to do that.

    I had read in Jean Scotts tax help for gamblers books similar to what you mention on the win/loss statements, she mentions they are no good as sole proof of results but in certain situations they may be
    Acceptable as supporting evidence of wins/losses along with other evidence, but not to rely on them.

  15. #15
    Enlighten me, KewlJ, on why taxes need to be filed on wins that didn't generate tax forms? For instance, I won like $700 on a $2.50 bet when I got almost a full screen of The Dragon(Top Symbol) on 50 Dragons in 2013 or 2014. I ended up playing a little more and then I ended up leaving with about $1,000. I didn't file taxes on that as I didn't get any Paperwork Forms to fill as my wins were all under $1200.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Personal gambling logs can easily be faked to show losses when you really had wins.
    This constitutes even further evidence that you are nothing but a worker who has a gambling habit. Gambling logs are the #1 form of evidence to the IRS. Sure anyone can lie on them (as in fabricating losses to mitigate wins/W2G's). But don't get caught submitting false evidence to an auditor.

    Unreal.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Tasha View Post
    Enlighten me, KewlJ, on why taxes need to be filed on wins that didn't generate tax forms? For instance, I won like $700 on a $2.50 bet when I got almost a full screen of The Dragon(Top Symbol) on 50 Dragons in 2013 or 2014. I ended up playing a little more and then I ended up leaving with about $1,000. I didn't file taxes on that as I didn't get any Paperwork Forms to fill as my wins were all under $1200.
    I'll enlighten you. IRS regulations specify "all gambling wins" must be reported. Chances are next to NO table and machine players do that, but that's the law.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Tasha View Post
    Enlighten me, KewlJ, on why taxes need to be filed on wins that didn't generate tax forms? For instance, I won like $700 on a $2.50 bet when I got almost a full screen of The Dragon(Top Symbol) on 50 Dragons in 2013 or 2014. I ended up playing a little more and then I ended up leaving with about $1,000. I didn't file taxes on that as I didn't get any Paperwork Forms to fill as my wins were all under $1200.
    Look Tasha, I don't write the tax laws.

    So with your dragon example, I am sure you had other play that year that resulted in losses that offset that single day win, so you would owe no taxes. BUT let's say for example that was the only day you played and you had no other losses to offset, then by law you owe taxes on that $1000. 99.999% of people wouldn't pay it, but technically you owe it.

    Now take a professional player. jbjb says professional players can fudge the records and this is very true. I am sure some do. But you know, how do you explain the house you bought, or even rent you are paying, the cars you drive, the furniture you buy, the food you buy, if you aren't claiming and paying taxes on winnings?

    Sooner or later, it catches up with you. And I am not a guy who likes looking over his shoulder. Plus, I actually like paying my fair share. It makes me feel good. Now am I certain that I have paid every dollar I owed? You know what, I am not even going to go there....anonymous or not. But I feel real comfortable with everything.

  19. #19
    Falsifying your playing records would be no different than falsifying other documentation. No different than falsifying records involving deductions or write offs that didn't occur. There is a phrase for it. That phrase is tax fraud.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Falsifying your playing records would be no different than falsifying other documentation. No different than falsifying records involving deductions or write offs that didn't occur. There is a phrase for it. That phrase is tax fraud.
    It's not against the law if you don't get caught. There are all kinds of cash business's that are cheating on income taxes. I remember a slot route operator that owned the pool table and jukebox in the bar I worked at. The bar owner got half of what they took in. The operator would show up, count the money, divide it between himself and the owner but wrote the receipt for just half of what was taken in. Lots of ways to spend cash without the IRS ever knowing or being able to prove lifestyle on you.
    Keystone is a mental midget.

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