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Thread: GWAE episode with "The Doc"

  1. #41
    But I am sure my reluctance to meet other players, players that could have taught me a thing or twenty has worked against me as well. One of the top Table game AP's in the country, has been critical of me saying that I was slow to progress from a "salamander". That should tell you who. That is mostly because I LIKE being a salamander, but surely I could have benefited from meeting some AP's especially after I moved to Vegas.

    One such guy is Stanford Wong. And here is my Stanford Wong story. I was reluctant to meet Wong and attend the green chip parties because Wong had worked as a consultant for the casinos. So I never did. So one night I am playing blackjack at the Westin at Flamingo and Koval. They had pretty lousy blackjack at the time (not sure they even have live blackjack anymore), but it was one of the 3 casinos within a half block walk of my Condo at the time Tuscany and Ellis Island were the others....that should tell you were my first Condo was.

    So as I was walking out from the Westin, I spot Stanford Wong (I was on BJ21, so had seen his picture) playing the electronic blackjack game. You know the one with 5 seats and the rotation video dealers with big boobs. So I thought, hummm. I sit down and start playing and strike up a conversation with Wong. I never tell him who I was, but we played for about 3 hours and he taught me how to beat that game. I saw him a second time a few weeks later at the same game. I guess he liked it at the time.

    So just imagine if I had met some of the "right" people. I probably could have learned all kinds of things. But again, I like blackjack card counting and making a living from that most elementary of AP plays having put my own little spin on it. So I have no regrets and that includes my reluctance to meet many other AP's. I really has served me well.

  2. #42
    There are some really bad posts in this thread.

  3. #43
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    But I am sure my reluctance to meet other players, players that could have taught me a thing or twenty has worked against me as well. One of the top Table game AP's in the country, has been critical of me saying that I was slow to progress from a "salamander". That should tell you who. That is mostly because I LIKE being a salamander, but surely I could have benefited from meeting some AP's especially after I moved to Vegas.

    One such guy is Stanford Wong. And here is my Stanford Wong story. I was reluctant to meet Wong and attend the green chip parties because Wong had worked as a consultant for the casinos. So I never did. So one night I am playing blackjack at the Westin at Flamingo and Koval. They had pretty lousy blackjack at the time (not sure they even have live blackjack anymore), but it was one of the 3 casinos within a half block walk of my Condo at the time Tuscany and Ellis Island were the others....that should tell you were my first Condo was. .
    Hopefully you weren’t living in the old Perez places behind the Westin and the Flamingo. They looked like some of the most run down ramshackled crack houses around. Anyone know the ones I am talking about?

    I believe they were torn down a few years ago.

    For a few years after the recession, the condos at the place I believe you are talking about living were dirt cheap to buy. But the monthly fees were crazy high if you didn’t join their rental management program. Much more than the mortgage payment. The place had a plan to become an attractive rental location for tourists, but being in that location never panned out. The 1/1’s ended up selling for well under $100k at one point.

  4. #44
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post

    He was overheard outing some APs. The person doing the overhearing is a reliable source. I have no further comments.
    Ask all of the AP's he screwed over on the Revel offer.
    What did he do that screwed them over at Revel?
    It was 2013 when Revel put on the 100K loss rebate. Leading up to it Dancer gave them a free heads up that they would get crushed on the $25 video pokers. They removed them from the floor. Dancer was trying to get a consulting gig with them and outed the play to prove his worth to them.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  5. #45
    I met an AP in Reno in late 2002. He was from Michigan and I had cruised the Great Lakes casinos that prior summer. He told me a story about how he had a $1000 a day gig working ongoing promotions at Turtle Creek Casino just east of Traverse City, Michigan. He developed the image of a high roller and was chummy with everyone including the casino manager. They golfed together every Saturday.

    The casino manager wanted to promote the video poker so he contracted Bob Dancer to come to Turtle Creek for a few days to teach video poker. Dancer struck up a conversation with this AP (probably profiled him as an AP) and asked him questions about what he was working. The AP says out of professional courtesy he told Dancer about his plays there. He knew Dancer wouldn't be hanging around so he figured it wouldn't hurt anything.

    The next Saturday after Dancer left the AP is golfing with the casino manager and out of the blue the casino manager says "Dancer told me I'm in trouble with a guy like you in my backyard." The casino manager revoked his card which ended the play for him. I still run into this AP occasionally and he still insists Dancer killed his play.

    As I said I was at Turtle Creek in the summer of 2002. No decent promotions going on. I figure the casino manager got wise. But I remember seeing Dancer's picture on the wall from the time he visited there.
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 08-19-2019 at 06:01 AM.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  6. #46
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    But I am sure my reluctance to meet other players, players that could have taught me a thing or twenty has worked against me as well. One of the top Table game AP's in the country, has been critical of me saying that I was slow to progress from a "salamander". That should tell you who. That is mostly because I LIKE being a salamander, but surely I could have benefited from meeting some AP's especially after I moved to Vegas.

    One such guy is Stanford Wong. And here is my Stanford Wong story. I was reluctant to meet Wong and attend the green chip parties because Wong had worked as a consultant for the casinos. So I never did. So one night I am playing blackjack at the Westin at Flamingo and Koval. They had pretty lousy blackjack at the time (not sure they even have live blackjack anymore), but it was one of the 3 casinos within a half block walk of my Condo at the time Tuscany and Ellis Island were the others....that should tell you were my first Condo was. .
    Hopefully you weren’t living in the old Perez places behind the Westin and the Flamingo. They looked like some of the most run down ramshackled crack houses around. Anyone know the ones I am talking about?

    I believe they were torn down a few years ago.

    For a few years after the recession, the condos at the place I believe you are talking about living were dirt cheap to buy. But the monthly fees were crazy high if you didn’t join their rental management program. Much more than the mortgage payment. The place had a plan to become an attractive rental location for tourists, but being in that location never panned out. The 1/1’s ended up selling for well under $100k at one point.
    I didn't know the "Perez" place by name but I know what you are talking about. I used to walk through that way on my way to the strip a lot. That was before the High Roller wheel.

    It also was not the garden style condos at Koval Flamingo. Those looked decent but had a lot of problems. A lot of undesirables in there. The guy that killed a number of people with his car at LVB and Flamingo a few years ago lived in there. My understanding a lot of drugs in there.

    I lived at the highrise on the southeast corner. I can talk about it now. It is a condo hotel, which means people buy and own the units as a vacation property but they can't live there. There is a 60 day limit per year that you can stay. When you are not using it you can have the unit sit vacant or place it back in the pool of units that they rent out as a hotel and earn money when your unit is rented.

    Now when I bought, late 2009, it was the height of the recession or crash or whatever you call it and there were a ton of foreclosed properties all over Vegas. This place which was only about 4-5 years old at the time had like a third of their units in foreclosure or some kind of underwater sale. It was effecting the hotel part of the business so they relaxed the residency clause and allowed people to live there.

    I Lived in Philly at the time, but knew I was planning on moving to Vegas in the next year, so I was looking online. I came across an auction that had this property listed. I researched what the units were selling for and made a bid of about 25% of what this unit had sold for brand new just 4 years before and bought the unit sight unseen. Three weeks later I moved in. It was a cute 1 bedroom condo on a high floor facing the back of Ballys/Paris. I could catch just a glimps of the Bellagio fountains between the two. And a great view of New Years Eve and 4th of July fireworks.

    It was a cool place to live for a guy in his mid/late 20's a block off the strip. But it had drawbacks too. Walls were paper thin, like many hotels. And there was a new crop of rowdy "guests" all the time, especially weekends.

    When the economy picked up, and units began selling again, they changed the residency rule back to that you couldn't live there, but could only spend a mx of 60 nights a year and tried to force that among those of us that were living there fulltime. We filed legal action. They made me a nice offer and I walked away. Others were fighting on. But my late partner had followed me to Vegas by that time and I was ready for something a little quieter and away from the strip. But it was a fun couple years.

  7. #47
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    I met an AP in Reno in late 2002. He was from Michigan and I had cruised the Great Lakes casinos that prior summer. He told me a story about how he had a $1000 a day gig working ongoing promotions at Turtle Creek Casino just east of Traverse City, Michigan. He developed the image of a high roller and was chummy with everyone including the casino manager. They golfed together every Saturday.

    The casino manager wanted to promote the video poker so he contracted Bob Dancer to come to Turtle Creek for a few days to teach video poker. Dancer struck up a conversation with this AP (probably profiled him as an AP) and asked him questions about what he was working. The AP says out of professional courtesy he told Dancer about his plays there. He knew Dancer wouldn't be hanging around so he figured it wouldn't hurt anything.

    The next Saturday after Dancer left the AP is golfing with the casino manager and out of the blue the casino manager says "Dancer told me I'm in trouble with a guy like you in my backyard." The casino manager revoked his card which ended the play for him. I still run into this AP occasionally and he still insists Dancer killed his play.

    As I said I was at Turtle Creek in the summer of 2002. No decent promotions going on. I figure the casino manager got wise. But I remember seeing Dancer's picture on the wall from the time he visited there.
    So if they made a movie about Dancer he'd be the guy everybody hates more and more as the story progressed. And axel I WILL pull up that GWAE episode for a listen.

    This is why I've always believed Dancer has made more money from his "business" than from his vp play. It appears he stops at nothing or no one to make a buck. That's a tough rep to have in vp circles. Surprised he hasn't met the business end of a baseball bat yet.

  8. #48
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post

    So if they made a movie about Dancer he'd be the guy everybody hates more and more as the story progressed. And axel I WILL pull up that GWAE episode for a listen.

    This is why I've always believed Dancer has made more money from his "business" than from his vp play. It appears he stops at nothing or no one to make a buck. That's a tough rep to have in vp circles. Surprised he hasn't met the business end of a baseball bat yet.
    Good grief Rob, yesterday you were singing the praises of this guy for the same thing you seem to have turned on him about today. Which is it?

    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Dancer is simply out for himself first--making money any which way possible either inside or a little bit outside the box. I've never had any problem with that because it is not all that different from how I operated. If he has to deceive a casino to make a buck then he does it. If he has to cause trouble for other players to make a score then he isn't beyond that either. It's why he's successful.

  9. #49
    Yea KJ, we are talking about the same place. Some people lost huge money there during the recession, but I’m assuming most just walked away. I thought about buying one near the bottom but couldn’t make the numbers work with the fees and the low occupancy rates at the time. But a nice facility with good views.

    Note of useless interest, the old cleaners next door was the one Dana Plato robbed during her downhill decent. Not sure if you know who she was.

  10. #50
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post

    So if they made a movie about Dancer he'd be the guy everybody hates more and more as the story progressed. And axel I WILL pull up that GWAE episode for a listen.

    This is why I've always believed Dancer has made more money from his "business" than from his vp play. It appears he stops at nothing or no one to make a buck. That's a tough rep to have in vp circles. Surprised he hasn't met the business end of a baseball bat yet.
    Good grief Rob, yesterday you were singing the praises of this guy for the same thing you seem to have turned on him about today. Which is it?

    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Dancer is simply out for himself first--making money any which way possible either inside or a little bit outside the box. I've never had any problem with that because it is not all that different from how I operated. If he has to deceive a casino to make a buck then he does it. If he has to cause trouble for other players to make a score then he isn't beyond that either. It's why he's successful.
    That's because you usually have some trouble reading the meaning of what's being said. I wasn't aware that Dancer hurt some individuals until boz and mickey identified that. That's the part that diminishes his value.

  11. #51
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    That's because you usually have some trouble reading the meaning of what's being said. I wasn't aware that Dancer hurt some individuals until boz and mickey identified that. That's the part that diminishes his value.
    Fair enough, Rob.

    A lot of this is new to me also, although I had heard some things. I am a little surprised Munchkin is comfortable working with him on GWAE. But whatever. Different people are comfortable with different things.

  12. #52
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Note of useless interest, the old cleaners next door was the one Dana Plato robbed during her downhill decent. Not sure if you know who she was.
    You are correct Boz, I didn't really know who Dana Plato was until I just read some. Pretty sad shit. According to Wiki (and we all know how reliable THAT is), she worked at that Dry cleaner, and robbed a video tape rental store near by. Either way damn sad. And apparently she had a young son at the time and he has now committed suicide at a young age. Also had a drug problem. Vicious and sad cycle.

  13. #53
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    I met an AP in Reno in late 2002. He was from Michigan and I had cruised the Great Lakes casinos that prior summer. He told me a story about how he had a $1000 a day gig working ongoing promotions at Turtle Creek Casino just east of Traverse City, Michigan. He developed the image of a high roller and was chummy with everyone including the casino manager. They golfed together every Saturday.

    The casino manager wanted to promote the video poker so he contracted Bob Dancer to come to Turtle Creek for a few days to teach video poker. Dancer struck up a conversation with this AP (probably profiled him as an AP) and asked him questions about what he was working. The AP says out of professional courtesy he told Dancer about his plays there. He knew Dancer wouldn't be hanging around so he figured it wouldn't hurt anything.

    The next Saturday after Dancer left the AP is golfing with the casino manager and out of the blue the casino manager says "Dancer told me I'm in trouble with a guy like you in my backyard." The casino manager revoked his card which ended the play for him. I still run into this AP occasionally and he still insists Dancer killed his play.

    As I said I was at Turtle Creek in the summer of 2002. No decent promotions going on. I figure the casino manager got wise. But I remember seeing Dancer's picture on the wall from the time he visited there.
    Mickey, from my perspective this is more on your AP friend than on Bob Dancer. What was your AP’s friend purpose of sharing this play with Bob Dancer or anybody else for that matter? Other than to brag to someone?

    If someone wants to keep their play a secret so it lasts, here’s a clue on how to do that. Do NOT tell anyone. But I know for some APs this is difficult to do. Nestor is a classic example of what not to do when you discover a great advantage play.

    Btw, this is what gets a lot of murders convicted. They can’t keep a secret. They usually share the details of their murder with a new friend they meet in prison, who coincidentally (lol) just happens to be an undercover FBI agent. I’m not making this up.

    Moral of the story: If you want to keep your advantage play going, don’t tell anybody about it.

  14. #54
    I thought mick had you blocked for being a zig zagging son of a bitch bob. Turns out Mickey zig zags too from foe to friend with singer etc.

    Anyway....are you putting on any boot camps? Have Botox, Midwest Player, or tableplay passed your test or class or whatever yet?

  15. #55
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    I met an AP in Reno in late 2002. He was from Michigan and I had cruised the Great Lakes casinos that prior summer. He told me a story about how he had a $1000 a day gig working ongoing promotions at Turtle Creek Casino just east of Traverse City, Michigan. He developed the image of a high roller and was chummy with everyone including the casino manager. They golfed together every Saturday.

    The casino manager wanted to promote the video poker so he contracted Bob Dancer to come to Turtle Creek for a few days to teach video poker. Dancer struck up a conversation with this AP (probably profiled him as an AP) and asked him questions about what he was working. The AP says out of professional courtesy he told Dancer about his plays there. He knew Dancer wouldn't be hanging around so he figured it wouldn't hurt anything.

    The next Saturday after Dancer left the AP is golfing with the casino manager and out of the blue the casino manager says "Dancer told me I'm in trouble with a guy like you in my backyard." The casino manager revoked his card which ended the play for him. I still run into this AP occasionally and he still insists Dancer killed his play.

    As I said I was at Turtle Creek in the summer of 2002. No decent promotions going on. I figure the casino manager got wise. But I remember seeing Dancer's picture on the wall from the time he visited there.
    Mickey, from my perspective this is more on your AP friend than on Bob Dancer. What was your AP’s friend purpose of sharing this play with Bob Dancer or anybody else for that matter? Other than to brag to someone?

    If someone wants to keep their play a secret so it lasts, here’s a clue on how to do that. Do NOT tell anyone. But I know for some APs this is difficult to do. Nestor is a classic example of what not to do when you discover a great advantage play.

    Btw, this is what gets a lot of murders convicted. They can’t keep a secret. They usually share the details of their murder with a new friend they meet in prison, who coincidentally (lol) just happens to be an undercover FBI agent. I’m not making this up.

    Moral of the story: If you want to keep your advantage play going, don’t tell anybody about it.
    First damn thing you've said that makes sense. I have no idea why APs want to tell people about their plays. I don't even think it's right to openly discuss what one might consider a trivial play that they themself wouldn't participate in. That might be the best tool in someone else's toolbox.

  16. #56
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    I thought mick had you blocked for being a zig zagging son of a bitch bob. Turns out Mickey zig zags too from foe to friend with singer etc.

    Anyway....are you putting on any boot camps? Have Botox, Midwest Player, or tableplay passed your test or class or whatever yet?
    mcap, you’re right Mickey has me blocked so he can’t read my words of wisdom. Lol. But I don’t have him blocked so I can read what he says. Btw, you will never see me block or put someone on ignore. If I don’t want to read what someone has to say, I just don’t read it. I don’t announce to the world I’ve put someone on block or ignore. Who really cares anyway who has who on block. This is a person’s individual choice.

    As far as my test, no one has aced it. But I did finally give tableplay a passing grade so he kind of pass it. I don’t have any new tests coming out. But when I do, you’ll be the first to know. And as far as my bootcamp, I’m still working on it.

  17. #57
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    I've seen plenty of other interesting topics on that show but they keep on going back to the well with the same Blackjack b*******.
    Obviously I feel differently about the blackjack episodes. I love hearing accounts of different players journeys. But that is just me.

    But I will give you that I would like to see some episodes focusing on things like the different technologies that casinos are now employing. Things like the NORA technology. These things should be public enemy #1 for ALL AP's, including, maybe especially the team oriented machine type players.

  18. #58
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    I've seen plenty of other interesting topics on that show but they keep on going back to the well with the same Blackjack b*******.
    Obviously I feel differently about the blackjack episodes. I love hearing accounts of different players journeys. But that is just me.

    But I will give you that I would like to see some episodes focusing on things like the different technologies that casinos are now employing. Things like the NORA technology. These things should be public enemy #1 for ALL AP's, including, maybe especially the team oriented machine type players.
    Most casinos can't figure out how to use half of the technology that they actually possess to near it's level of potential effectiveness. NORA has been around for almost a decade and I would say has next to zero effect on an astute machine AP.

  19. #59
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Most casinos can't figure out how to use half of the technology that they actually possess to near it's level of potential effectiveness. NORA has been around for almost a decade and I would say has next to zero effect on an astute machine AP.
    It's been around, MaxPen, but until recently only the really large casinos were willing to spend the money to have access to it. More and more casinos are now spending money on these different technologies, under the exaggerated and misguided theory that AP's are effecting the bottom line. And the industry is expanding their focus to machine AP's where as for years/decades they only focused on table game AP's, particularly the team approach and team relationships, which is what this technology is designed to expose.

    Technology is going to be the thing that brings many of us down. I would like to see sources like GWAE bring as much information as possible out into the open.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 08-20-2019 at 11:11 AM.

  20. #60
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Most casinos can't figure out how to use half of the technology that they actually possess to near it's level of potential effectiveness. NORA has been around for almost a decade and I would say has next to zero effect on an astute machine AP.
    It's been around, MaxPen, but until recently only the really large casinos were willing to spend the money to have access to it. More and more casinos are now spending money on these different technologies, under the exaggerated and misguided theory that AP's are effecting the bottom line. And the industry is expanding their focus to machine AP's where as for years/decades they only focused on table game AP's, particularly the team approach and team relationships, which is what this technology is designed to expose.

    Technology is going to be the thing that brings many of us down. I would like to see sources like GWAE bring as much information as possible out into the open.
    Where do you get your information from? If you already know the answers why do you need GWAE to discuss it? Table game play is affected from a team and player/employee standpoint. Provided the casino knows how to use and setup the software correctly.
    You really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to machines. You're just making stuff up regarding this and machine play. For someone who is supposedly back to your BJ roots you sure like to try and open discussion regarding the trials and tribulations of those who focus on machines. Have to wonder what your motivations are.

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