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Thread: The Complete Sequence

  1. #1
    Since some of you are genuinely interested in this, I'm posting the entire double up play sequence for those who will actually be searching for this anomaly as I always do. And regardless of what you've read in the wired or other articles or in the Kane & Nestor court papers, what you'll see here are the exact, 100% accurate steps for working the double up play.

    1. As an example, we're playing a 5-level 25c thru $5 SDBP machine on quarters with double up enabled. 2. You hit quad Jacks for a 600 credit win.
    3. If you're playing a machine where the yes/no DU question pops up after every win, you insert a bill or voucher thereby eliminating the DU question. YOU MAY ALSO CHOOSE YES, which will show the first card with four undetermined cards after it. Inserting a bill at this point will also disengage the DU sequence. However, if the DU option does NOT ask the question after every winning hand but instead, has a yellow "double up" tab that appears on the bottom right of the machine after a winning hand, you need to push it to activate the first dealt card with the four blanks. This is when you insert a bill.
    4. You then choose More Games from the resulting screen that now shows your quad Jacks.
    5. You switch the denomination from 25c to $5.
    6. You then select SDBP again. If the pay table is exactly the same for 25c as $5, you'll see your quad Jacks again.
    7. Hit the cash out button. Machine will lock up for a $3000 hand pay.

    For non-taxable winning hands at the highest denomination: the procedure is exactly the same. Only difference MAY be that your machine may lock up for a hand pay anyway. When I started out I tested the procedure a number of times on non-taxables, and when I hit the cash out button it simply added credits or value to my bank. But when I found a 5c thru 25c machine around four years ago at an Az. Indian casino that had the "bug" when I hit a straight on nickels and switched it to quarters before hitting cash out, it locked up saying "Jackpot! $5". I attribute that oddity to it being an Indian casino machine. I left without collecting.

    Don't let kew scare you. Nobody really cares what you're doing when you play vp unless and until you give them a reason to. We all know how kew believes the casinos will pounce on anyone who hits a jackpot, but for some reason they have zero issue with bj counters.

    Oh---this is the absolute final time I'll ever be talking about, responding to questions, or putting critics where they belong, on this issue in this or any other thread. If anyone has any questions just PM me. Make all the stupid and hateful comments you like. It has no effect on history.
    Last edited by Rob.Singer; 09-01-2019 at 03:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Since some of you are genuinely interested in this, I'm posting the entire double up play sequence for those who will actually be searching for this anomaly as I always do. And regardless of what you've read in the wired or other articles or in the Kane & Nestor court papers, what you'll see here are the exact, 100% accurate steps for working the double up play.

    1. As an example, we're playing a 5-level 25c thru $5 SDBP machine on quarters with double up enabled. 2. You hit quad Jacks for a 600 credit win.
    3. If you're playing a machine where the yes/no DU question pops up after every win, you insert a bill or voucher thereby eliminating the DU question. YOU MAY ALSO CHOOSE YES, which will show the first card with four undetermined cards after it. Inserting a bill at this point will also disengage the DU sequence. However, if the DU option does NOT ask the question after every winning hand but instead, has a yellow "double up" tab that appears on the bottom right of the machine after a winning hand, you need to push it to activate the first dealt card with the four blanks. This is when you insert a bill.
    4. You then choose More Games from the resulting screen that now shows your quad Jacks.
    5. You switch the denomination from 25c to $5.
    6. You then select SDBP again. If the pay table is exactly the same for 25c as $5, you'll see your quad Jacks again.
    7. Hit the cash out button. Machine will lock up for a $3000 hand pay.

    For non-taxable winning hands at the highest denomination: the procedure is exactly the same. Only difference MAY be that your machine may lock up for a hand pay anyway. When I started out I tested the procedure a number of times on non-taxables, and when I hit the cash out button it simply added credits or value to my bank. But when I found a 5c thru 25c machine around four years ago at an Az. Indian casino that had the "bug" when I hit a straight on nickels and switched it to quarters before hitting cash out, it locked up saying "Jackpot! $5". I attribute that oddity to it being an Indian casino machine. I left without collecting.

    Don't let kew scare you. Nobody really cares what you're doing when you play vp unless and until you give them a reason to. We all know how kew believes the casinos will pounce on anyone who hits a jackpot, but for some reason they have zero issue with bj counters.

    Oh---this is the absolute final time I'll ever be talking about, responding to questions, or putting critics where they belong, on this issue in this or any other thread. If anyone has any questions just PM me. Make all the stupid and hateful comments you like. It has no effect on history.

    LOL. The devil, as they say, is in the details...or lack thereof. Any cop who's had to take a statement or two will understand the issue with both this and the presentation on the Best Buys forum.

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
    Oh---this is the absolute final time I'll ever be talking about, responding to questions, or putting critics where they belong, on this issue in this or any other thread.
    Starting to sound like KewlJ now......lol
    It's on.... let's see who can stay silent the longest.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Since some of you are genuinely interested in this, I'm posting the entire double up play sequence for those who will actually be searching for this anomaly as I always do. And regardless of what you've read in the wired or other articles or in the Kane & Nestor court papers, what you'll see here are the exact, 100% accurate steps for working the double up play.

    1. As an example, we're playing a 5-level 25c thru $5 SDBP machine on quarters with double up enabled. 2. You hit quad Jacks for a 600 credit win.
    3. If you're playing a machine where the yes/no DU question pops up after every win, you insert a bill or voucher thereby eliminating the DU question. YOU MAY ALSO CHOOSE YES, which will show the first card with four undetermined cards after it. Inserting a bill at this point will also disengage the DU sequence. However, if the DU option does NOT ask the question after every winning hand but instead, has a yellow "double up" tab that appears on the bottom right of the machine after a winning hand, you need to push it to activate the first dealt card with the four blanks. This is when you insert a bill.
    4. You then choose More Games from the resulting screen that now shows your quad Jacks.
    5. You switch the denomination from 25c to $5.
    6. You then select SDBP again. If the pay table is exactly the same for 25c as $5, you'll see your quad Jacks again.
    7. Hit the cash out button. Machine will lock up for a $3000 hand pay.

    For non-taxable winning hands at the highest denomination: the procedure is exactly the same. Only difference MAY be that your machine may lock up for a hand pay anyway. When I started out I tested the procedure a number of times on non-taxables, and when I hit the cash out button it simply added credits or value to my bank. But when I found a 5c thru 25c machine around four years ago at an Az. Indian casino that had the "bug" when I hit a straight on nickels and switched it to quarters before hitting cash out, it locked up saying "Jackpot! $5". I attribute that oddity to it being an Indian casino machine. I left without collecting.

    Don't let kew scare you. Nobody really cares what you're doing when you play vp unless and until you give them a reason to. We all know how kew believes the casinos will pounce on anyone who hits a jackpot, but for some reason they have zero issue with bj counters.

    Oh---this is the absolute final time I'll ever be talking about, responding to questions, or putting critics where they belong, on this issue in this or any other thread. If anyone has any questions just PM me. Make all the stupid and hateful comments you like. It has no effect on history.

    LOL. The devil, as they say, is in the details...or lack thereof. Any cop who's had to take a statement or two will understand the issue with both this and the presentation on the Best Buys forum.
    This is by far the most detailed account of the DU bug I've read.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Don't let kew scare you. Nobody really cares what you're doing when you play vp unless and until you give them a reason to. We all know how kew believes the casinos will pounce on anyone who hits a jackpot, but for some reason they have zero issue with bj counters.
    I have talked to 2 different surveillance guys. Both because of the forums that I participated on (WoV and BJinfo). I don't often get the chance but when I do I try to learn all I can. And both told me that blackjack card counters are low priority. Top priority is theft, including theft by casino personnel.

    These discussions were long before this claim of yours, so not specific to your claim, but "fraud" and "felony theft" which is how you accurately described this play in 2013 is exactly what they are looking at/for.

    You can call me all the names you want Rob, but it doesn't change the fact that your story is just that....a story.

  6. #6
    Imagine Rob that you really did find that glitch and at that time you changed a 5K jackpot to 25k and shortly afterward you were surrounded by security who ushered you to a private room until the police arrive, what would you have said for a defense? Would you tell your defence lawyer that you got the idea from Yogi Berra who said "It ain't over till it's over"? Only your reference would be to the completion of a hand of video poker.

    Large jackpots winners just get hand paid when their light goes off and the machine locks up without security taking a look doesn't sound natural. Then when you consider even somewhat infrequent wins for five and a half years going completely as planned without one glitch "pun intended" is absolutely preposterous.

  7. #7
    I think it would be very strange for surveillance to review tape on a random W2G jackpot without any prior suspicion or request from the floor.

    It depends on the casino I guess but W2G hands are very common. They are absolutely not inherently suspicious. Highly exploitable machine glitches on the other hand are extremely rare. A surveillance guy who routinely reviews W2G hands for possible machine exploits is wasting his time.

    I believe casinos will replay the hand on the machine if a jackpot is large enough (have seen this on 45k+ slot jackpot), but that's still not tape review.

    If there's prior heat on the player that's a completely different story.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Don't let kew scare you. Nobody really cares what you're doing when you play vp unless and until you give them a reason to. We all know how kew believes the casinos will pounce on anyone who hits a jackpot, but for some reason they have zero issue with bj counters.
    I have talked to 2 different surveillance guys. Both because of the forums that I participated on (WoV and BJinfo). I don't often get the chance but when I do I try to learn all I can. And both told me that blackjack card counters are low priority. Top priority is theft, including theft by casino personnel.

    These discussions were long before this claim of yours, so not specific to your claim, but "fraud" and "felony theft" which is how you accurately described this play in 2013 is exactly what they are looking at/for.

    You can call me all the names you want Rob, but it doesn't change the fact that your story is just that....a story.

    1267 DAYS and counting.
    Keep your friends close, keep your drinks closer...

  9. #9
    Michael Shackleford, AKA the Wizard, is open to investigating Robs claims and doing an interview.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  10. #10
    By request, I've already sent a written statement to wizard on Sunday.

    I was just directed to a new thread about this on WoV. Drich says he knows of at least one active machine of this type. There are likely many more, and some of all of you have been playing them.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post

    There are likely many more, and some of all of you have been playing them.

    Rob, is that above quote something like this following saying?


    "90% of the game is half mental"
    Last edited by BoSox; 09-16-2019 at 04:20 PM.

  12. #12
    Thanks Rob. It’s your shining opportunity and I hope you make the best of it. And I honestly hate if My placing this in the spotlight kills anyone’s plays. That said, you probably did it with your revelation.

    Consider me open to your story, not that I matter in the “gambling community” but I hope you present undisputable evidence in your favor. You either have it or you don’t. I also hope you accept Mike as a legitimate arbitrator to your claims.

    Potential win/ win for everyone and a good record of history, unlike the Wired story.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Thanks Rob. It’s your shining opportunity and I hope you make the best of it. And I honestly hate if My placing this in the spotlight kills anyone’s plays. That said, you probably did it with your revelation.

    Consider me open to your story, not that I matter in the “gambling community” but I hope you present undisputable evidence in your favor. You either have it or you don’t. I also hope you accept Mike as a legitimate arbitrator to your claims.

    Potential win/ win for everyone and a good record of history, unlike the Wired story.
    I am interested to see how this plays out Boz and I accept Mike as a fair, legitimate and I would add 'expert' arbitrator. But the question I have is if Rob has "undisputable evidence", well he has had the option to present that at any time during the last 6 months and we wouldn't even be in this position, would we?

    I don't want to get a head of anything but what if Rob presents a written statement, which I guess he has already done, and/or even communicates face to face or over the phone with Mike and Mike comes away saying something like it is clear there was such a bug and players, like Kane/Nestor and probably others played this play, but that he has seen no proof that Rob played this play. Then we are right back where we are.

    For the record: No one is disputing that there was such a bug and play. AND no one is disputing that Rob seems to have knowledge of the play. What is disputed is that Rob played this play for 5.5 years to the tune of 3 million dollars. So THAT is what we can expect Rob to provide (to Mike) undeniable evidence of right?

  14. #14
    And for the record, while I chose not to believe Rob on this double up bug claim, without some sort of documentational proof, based on decades of untruthfulness and lack of credibility, and that could change should Rob provide some "undeniable evidence", that would not effect my bigger concern of Rob's Progressive wagering system, with special plays and machines telepathing to him when they are hot, that some how allowed him to overcome negative expectation and rack up hundred's of thousands to millions of dollars over many years. If Rob is going to be providing "undeniable evidence", I would like to see some for this claim, as this is the one I am most concerned about as it mislead and had the potential to harm other players.

    Good Luck Rob. This is your shining moment.

  15. #15
    I'm not really sure what an interview with Mike can add to this saga. I'm not aware of any special knowledge he would possess regarding this play and the math has already been solved for VP. Rob has already spoke with one expert with specialized knowledge regarding this play when he spoke with Axelwolf. There is only one other expert regarding this play on the WoV, that I know of, and he says it is/was still alive.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    I'm not really sure what an interview with Mike can add to this saga. I'm not aware of any special knowledge he would possess regarding this play and the math has already been solved for VP. Rob has already spoke with one expert with specialized knowledge regarding this play when he spoke with Axelwolf. There is only one other expert regarding this play on the WoV, that I know of, and he says it is/was still alive.
    Mikes opinion will carry weight if Rob presents all the evidence and records he has. If he is as fearless and confident as he says, and wants validation, Mike is the right guy.

    At worse Mike says he thinks it’s BS. At best it he says he believes it. Perhaps it ends in the middle, but based on their previous interaction, it’s clear Mike will say it’s BS as he did before.

    In this situation, I think Singer understands the opportunity presented to him and accepts his responsibilities here.

  17. #17
    I'm of course accepting Mike in whatever role he chooses to take. If he'd like any other experts from anywhere including any casino, the GBC, IGT, Kane, or even the FBI present for questions, comments or critique, that's OK with me. The spotlight doesn't bother me because I know more about the play than anyone.

    I have a question: please clearly identify what would be considered to be indisputable evidence. Don't claim tax returns are included in that. I've already said (and everyone should know) federal law only requires they be kept for 3 years barring criminal activity, and like most normal taxpayers I shredded them long ago.

    So kew, how about a little help instead of getting yourself all lathered up again. What else is there?

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    I'm not really sure what an interview with Mike can add to this saga. I'm not aware of any special knowledge he would possess regarding this play and the math has already been solved for VP. Rob has already spoke with one expert with specialized knowledge regarding this play when he spoke with Axelwolf. There is only one other expert regarding this play on the WoV, that I know of, and he says it is/was still alive.
    Mikes opinion will carry weight if Rob presents all the evidence and records he has. If he is as fearless and confident as he says, and wants validation, Mike is the right guy.

    At worse Mike says he thinks it’s BS. At best it he says he believes it. Perhaps it ends in the middle, but based on their previous interaction, it’s clear Mike will say it’s BS as he did before.

    In this situation, I think Singer understands the opportunity presented to him and accepts his responsibilities here.
    That makes sense. I'm looking forward to this chapter.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    I have a question: please clearly identify what would be considered to be indisputable evidence. Don't claim tax returns are included in that. I've already said (and everyone should know) federal law only requires they be kept for 3 years barring criminal activity, and like most normal taxpayers I shredded them long ago.

    So kew, how about a little help instead of getting yourself all lathered up again. What else is there?
    I thank you for your little bit less hostile tone Rob, although you still felt the need to get a little jab in didn't you with the "lathered up". Just can't help yourself and be a normal person can you?

    In answer to your question, I don't know...I really don't know. But I will tell you that you made the comment that you knew this claim would be met with a great deal of skepticism (or something to that effect). So if this claim was true and it is important to you that people believe the claim and find you credible....as it seems to be, I would have thought you would have preserved some sort of evidence to make that happen.

    I am not trying to be unfair when I say you have a rather long and extensive history in the Gambling/AP community of untruthfulness and lack of credibility because of that untruthfulness. Did you really think that you could make this claim, a claim that would be a huge story in the AP community and not have something other than your word to back it up? I mean seriously, with your history and credibility did you think you could get some sort of interview with Mike Shackleford or an appearance on GWAE (which was talked about) and not have anything to back up this claim? Come on Rob.

    So if you are saying you have no way to prove, well for me that just goes back to your credibility and we are right back to square one.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    So kew, how about a little help instead of getting yourself all lathered up again. What else is there?
    Ok, so you are claiming you threw away all tax returns from this period. You make it sound as if there is some requirement to discard tax information after 3 years, when it really is something you just chose to do (how convenient). I assume you are also claiming to have discarded all the casino paperwork from casinos for all the handpays, is that correct?

    So while taxpayers are not required to keep tax records for more than 3 years (and I didn't even know that), have we established that the IRS doesn't keep records for longer than that, and as the person involved you couldn't request a copy of tax info from years ago? Anyone know this information for sure?

    Also what about bank records? As a person claiming to have made 3 million in cash over 5 years, that is what and average of 600k a year, or more than $10,000 a week. There should be some records of you depositing some large chunks of cash into bank accounts or are you claiming you keep it all in a shoebox? (the shoebox is a reference for my blackjack friends from another site....just a little humor.

    I suppose you are going to tell us that you kept 3 million in cash in a safe. And if that is the case and you have no "undeniable evidence" you are going to have to just make your case to Shackleford and see what he says. Maybe Shackleford will conclude that while you have offered no proof, this just feels different than your other claims and he believes you. And if that's the case, I will accept Mike's opinion and congratulate you and we can move on to your Singer progressive wagering claim.

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