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Thread: Thought Experiement

  1. #1
    What would happen if you went around a Pennsylvania or Colorado casino with a giant fistful of penny-sized vouchers and put one in each unoccupied (and creditless) machine on the floor. Could you essentially halt business there since no one would want to get near them ?

  2. #2
    You would get 86'd for being weird.

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by smurgerburger View Post
    You would get 86'd for being weird.
    I was wondering what would happen to the amount of play the machines got, not what would happen to the loader.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    What would happen if you went around a Pennsylvania or Colorado casino with a giant fistful of penny-sized vouchers and put one in each unoccupied (and creditless) machine on the floor. Could you essentially halt business there since no one would want to get near them ?
    I dont think it would affect play because if people were not familiar with the (silly) laws in these states they would just insert their money and play ignoring the penny.

    If they were familiar with the laws they could just cash out the voucher and set it on top of the machine and then play.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    I dont think it would affect play because if people were not familiar with the (silly) laws in these states they would just insert their money and play ignoring the penny.
    I think some of these people who are unfamiliar with these laws would end up in jail or end up getting fined inadvertently. I think some of the people who are familiar with the laws would be scared to play the machines or perhaps they would ask a slot person to remove the voucher and then they would play the machine. The remainder of those familiar would do as you say.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    I dont think it would affect play because if people were not familiar with the (silly) laws in these states they would just insert their money and play ignoring the penny.
    I think some of these people who are unfamiliar with these laws would end up in jail or end up getting fined inadvertently. I think some of the people who are familiar with the laws would be scared to play the machines or perhaps they would ask a slot person to remove the voucher and then they would play the machine. The remainder of those familiar would do as you say.
    I read the story about the guy who was arrested in Colorado for doing this, but if I recall correctly it was a couple of dollars and he was aware the abandoned credits were there.

    As ridiculous as that was, I would think that legitimately accidentally playing a machine with a penny on it wouldn't cause a problem.

    Of course, you can never overestimate the stupidity of people so who knows. As i was typing this i recalled about 15 years ago before TITO a lady a Michigan casino was arrested for playing a nickel she found abandoned in the coin tray. As I remember she successfully sued the casino for about 800k as in Michigan the applicable law for this situation was finders keepers loosers weepers, so yeah if a casino was stupid enough to do this to a customer over a nickel, then I guess its possible some would be stupid enough to do it over a penny.

  7. #7
    Does anyone know specifically what the law(s) is/are in Colorado or Pennsylvania? Like the wording of the specific regulations or whatever.

    If worded the right way (and it probably is), you could probably cause a big ol' ruckus.
    #FreeTyde

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    Does anyone know specifically what the law(s) is/are in Colorado or Pennsylvania? Like the wording of the specific regulations or whatever.

    If worded the right way (and it probably is), you could probably cause a big ol' ruckus.
    I believe they are worded something to the effect of “Boy, if yew takes any money outta that thar machine tain’t yers, you in a wholeeeeeeee heap a trouble.”

    “And ya ain’t foolin nobody by puttin yer own money in there first neither.”

  9. #9
    I had about $ 7 freeplay about two years ago at a local casino,I frequently visited, and I am a low roller. I was playing about a nickel a spin and when the freeplay was cycled through, I had won about $8 dollars cash, I had pressed cash out at most times after a winning spin. I had about 30 tickets with low amounts on them. I went to the TITO machine but some Casino staff members were putting more money into them. I decided to go to the nearby Cashier cage, and she was giving me a wary look as she cashed them in, like, "This person is shady." A nearby Manager came up and asked me,"How are you doing?" I usually am on guard when people out of nowhere ask me "How are you doing?" Because usually something bad is about to be asked soon after, like the time a few years ago undercover Security Guard thought I was shoplifting when I wasn't. He thought he saw me put a store item into my pocket or something like that, and that wasn't the case at all. So, I am already on guard with the Manager asking me the dreaded, 'How are you doing" and then the shoe dropped. He straight up asked me if I was cashing out random players' left over TITO's. I told him, "No," I am a low roller and had free play and was cashing out every time I won. He took a good look at the TITO's and realized each ticket were from the same machines just seconds after each other. He believed me.
    Last edited by Tasha; 09-21-2019 at 03:23 AM.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    Does anyone know specifically what the law(s) is/are in Colorado or Pennsylvania? Like the wording of the specific regulations or whatever.

    If worded the right way (and it probably is), you could probably cause a big ol' ruckus.
    In Colorado that would be defined by § 12-47.1-823, C.R.S. Specifically, § 12-47.1-823(1)(c), C.R.S. which reads:

    "(c) To claim, collect, or take, or attempt to claim, collect, or take, money or anything of value in or from a limited gaming activity with intent to defraud and without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect, or take an amount greater than the amount won"

    HEY! That might actually cover the Double Up Flaw too!

    Here are a couple of links to the investigation that brought these practices to light.

    https://kdvr.com/2017/11/15/casino-c...-slot-credits/

    https://kdvr.com/2017/11/16/outrage-...-slot-credits/
    Last edited by unowme; 09-21-2019 at 05:12 AM.

  11. #11
    While I have no insight on Colorado nor Pennsylvania laws, I have been personally involved on both ends of "graft" in Atlantic City.

    I have already told the story of how my wife almost lost $700 by not removing her money from a VP machine while going to the bathroom (yes, I was four seats away in an empty aisle and it was my fault). Last month I was at Caesars (in AC) and sat down at a Wild Fiesta Coins machine. This is the slot machine with a Mexican gentleman wearing a sombrero with a sidekick donkey (this is where the old Rob would state, "Isn't stating a Mexican with a sombrero, redundant?). Anyhow, when I sat down, I noticed that $60 was left on the machine. No one was on the seat to the right of me on this three seat bay. I asked the woman on the far right if the person at this machine was coming back. There was no card in the machine and no drinks nearby. I asked a waitress for security to come to this location.

    I guess the clean cut FBI appearance (by me) was all I needed. They told me to play the money through the machine. I gladly, did not argue.

    I wish I had a better story about AP play. But this relates to the topic.

    It's funny. I have a difficult time with the thought of the double down "legality", but I had no problem taking the $60, with permission. While I already give 20 hours per week to town sports, I gave a few extra hours in August to level out the books.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    Does anyone know specifically what the law(s) is/are in Colorado or Pennsylvania? Like the wording of the specific regulations or whatever.

    If worded the right way (and it probably is), you could probably cause a big ol' ruckus.
    In Colorado that would be defined by § 12-47.1-823, C.R.S. Specifically, § 12-47.1-823(1)(c), C.R.S. which reads:

    "(c) To claim, collect, or take, or attempt to claim, collect, or take, money or anything of value in or from a limited gaming activity with intent to defraud and without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect, or take an amount greater than the amount won"

    HEY! That might actually cover the Double Up Flaw too!

    Here are a couple of links to the investigation that brought these practices to light.

    https://kdvr.com/2017/11/15/casino-c...-slot-credits/

    https://kdvr.com/2017/11/16/outrage-...-slot-credits/
    If you are aware of the act, what's easier: trying to prove you didn't violate that act or avoiding the machine all together . . .
    Maybe you will call over the attendant to clear the machine. They will need to do this several times since a lot of the unoccupied machines on the floor are loaded. In order to do it several times they will need to be aware that there are credits on the other machines and it isn't an isolated case. So they will be kept busy. Maybe they will call security if they think it is being done intentionally. What happens if the empty machines are loaded with vouchers on an early afternoon before the friday rush after work ? Well then you get a lot of act violators or calls to slot attendants and an hour of revenue is lost, that's what.
    Sacrifice fly for the person loading them. Maybe a new act is then passed in the typical knee-jerk fashion of bureaucrats that states that you cannot intentionally put credits on machines without playing if loading machines and not playing is done all over the state. Do people then walk on eggshells or do they just stop playing since they're damned no matter what they do ?

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    Does anyone know specifically what the law(s) is/are in Colorado or Pennsylvania? Like the wording of the specific regulations or whatever.

    If worded the right way (and it probably is), you could probably cause a big ol' ruckus.
    In Colorado that would be defined by § 12-47.1-823, C.R.S. Specifically, § 12-47.1-823(1)(c), C.R.S. which reads:

    "(c) To claim, collect, or take, or attempt to claim, collect, or take, money or anything of value in or from a limited gaming activity with intent to defraud and without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect, or take an amount greater than the amount won"

    HEY! That might actually cover the Double Up Flaw too!

    Here are a couple of links to the investigation that brought these practices to light.

    https://kdvr.com/2017/11/15/casino-c...-slot-credits/

    https://kdvr.com/2017/11/16/outrage-...-slot-credits/
    If you are aware of the act, what's easier: trying to prove you didn't violate that act or avoiding the machine all together . . .
    Maybe you will call over the attendant to clear the machine. They will need to do this several times since a lot of the unoccupied machines on the floor are loaded. In order to do it several times they will need to be aware that there are credits on the other machines and it isn't an isolated case. So they will be kept busy. Maybe they will call security if they think it is being done intentionally. What happens if the empty machines are loaded with vouchers on an early afternoon before the friday rush after work ? Well then you get a lot of act violators or calls to slot attendants and an hour of revenue is lost, that's what.
    Sacrifice fly for the person loading them. Maybe a new act is then passed in the typical knee-jerk fashion of bureaucrats that states that you cannot intentionally put credits on machines without playing if loading machines and not playing is done all over the state. Do people then walk on eggshells or do they just stop playing since they're damned no matter what they do ?
    Oh I'm sure they would find something to charge you without even having to make a new law. Like criminal mischief. They will say you vandalized their machines. If you're at an Indian casino, they'll beat you up and say you vandalized their machines and attacked a member of the tribe. And while you'll probably beat the rap, they will make it as expensive and time consuming as possible if they think you're fucking with them.

    Casinos have undue influence over the legal system in gambling cities and states. Like how does Nevada charge people who don't pay their markers with felony bad check writing? In any other business that advances their customer money for their products that's called Credit. Wen you fail to pay your credit card they have to take civil action against you. They can't simply turn your bill over over to the DA for felony prosecution and collection.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post

    In Colorado that would be defined by § 12-47.1-823, C.R.S. Specifically, § 12-47.1-823(1)(c), C.R.S. which reads:

    "(c) To claim, collect, or take, or attempt to claim, collect, or take, money or anything of value in or from a limited gaming activity with intent to defraud and without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect, or take an amount greater than the amount won"

    HEY! That might actually cover the Double Up Flaw too!

    Here are a couple of links to the investigation that brought these practices to light.

    https://kdvr.com/2017/11/15/casino-c...-slot-credits/

    https://kdvr.com/2017/11/16/outrage-...-slot-credits/
    If you are aware of the act, what's easier: trying to prove you didn't violate that act or avoiding the machine all together . . .
    Maybe you will call over the attendant to clear the machine. They will need to do this several times since a lot of the unoccupied machines on the floor are loaded. In order to do it several times they will need to be aware that there are credits on the other machines and it isn't an isolated case. So they will be kept busy. Maybe they will call security if they think it is being done intentionally. What happens if the empty machines are loaded with vouchers on an early afternoon before the friday rush after work ? Well then you get a lot of act violators or calls to slot attendants and an hour of revenue is lost, that's what.
    Sacrifice fly for the person loading them. Maybe a new act is then passed in the typical knee-jerk fashion of bureaucrats that states that you cannot intentionally put credits on machines without playing if loading machines and not playing is done all over the state. Do people then walk on eggshells or do they just stop playing since they're damned no matter what they do ?
    Oh I'm sure they would find something to charge you without even having to make a new law. Like criminal mischief. They will say you vandalized their machines. If you're at an Indian casino, they'll beat you up and say you vandalized their machines and attacked a member of the tribe. And while you'll probably beat the rap, they will make it as expensive and time consuming as possible if they think you're fucking with them.

    Casinos have undue influence over the legal system in gambling cities and states. Like how does Nevada charge people who don't pay their markers with felony bad check writing? In any other business that advances their customer money for their products that's called Credit. Wen you fail to pay your credit card they have to take civil action against you. They can't simply turn your bill over over to the DA for felony prosecution and collection.
    If the loader leaves right after loading the machines they probably won't get "caught" (that is, busted for something that's not illegal). The first couple of slot clearings will probably be attributable to coincidence or an absent-minded senior IMHO so that there is likely a grace period.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post

    If you are aware of the act, what's easier: trying to prove you didn't violate that act or avoiding the machine all together . . .
    Maybe you will call over the attendant to clear the machine. They will need to do this several times since a lot of the unoccupied machines on the floor are loaded. In order to do it several times they will need to be aware that there are credits on the other machines and it isn't an isolated case. So they will be kept busy. Maybe they will call security if they think it is being done intentionally. What happens if the empty machines are loaded with vouchers on an early afternoon before the friday rush after work ? Well then you get a lot of act violators or calls to slot attendants and an hour of revenue is lost, that's what.
    Sacrifice fly for the person loading them. Maybe a new act is then passed in the typical knee-jerk fashion of bureaucrats that states that you cannot intentionally put credits on machines without playing if loading machines and not playing is done all over the state. Do people then walk on eggshells or do they just stop playing since they're damned no matter what they do ?
    Oh I'm sure they would find something to charge you without even having to make a new law. Like criminal mischief. They will say you vandalized their machines. If you're at an Indian casino, they'll beat you up and say you vandalized their machines and attacked a member of the tribe. And while you'll probably beat the rap, they will make it as expensive and time consuming as possible if they think you're fucking with them.

    Casinos have undue influence over the legal system in gambling cities and states. Like how does Nevada charge people who don't pay their markers with felony bad check writing? In any other business that advances their customer money for their products that's called Credit. Wen you fail to pay your credit card they have to take civil action against you. They can't simply turn your bill over over to the DA for felony prosecution and collection.
    If the loader leaves right after loading the machines they probably won't get "caught" (that is, busted for something that's not illegal). The first couple of slot clearings will probably be attributable to coincidence or an absent-minded senior IMHO so that there is likely a grace period.
    I think that's a great idea. I nominate you to try it out and report back to us.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Oh I'm sure they would find something to charge you without even having to make a new law. Like criminal mischief. They will say you vandalized their machines. If you're at an Indian casino, they'll beat you up and say you vandalized their machines and attacked a member of the tribe. And while you'll probably beat the rap, they will make it as expensive and time consuming as possible if they think you're fucking with them.

    Casinos have undue influence over the legal system in gambling cities and states. Like how does Nevada charge people who don't pay their markers with felony bad check writing? In any other business that advances their customer money for their products that's called Credit. Wen you fail to pay your credit card they have to take civil action against you. They can't simply turn your bill over over to the DA for felony prosecution and collection.
    If the loader leaves right after loading the machines they probably won't get "caught" (that is, busted for something that's not illegal). The first couple of slot clearings will probably be attributable to coincidence or an absent-minded senior IMHO so that there is likely a grace period.
    I think that's a great idea. I nominate you to try it out and report back to us.
    What idea is that ? You realize the heading of the thread was Thought Experiment (if I hadn't misspelled Experiment) right ?
    Last edited by tableplay; 09-21-2019 at 05:50 PM.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post

    If the loader leaves right after loading the machines they probably won't get "caught" (that is, busted for something that's not illegal). The first couple of slot clearings will probably be attributable to coincidence or an absent-minded senior IMHO so that there is likely a grace period.
    I think that's a great idea. I nominate you to try it out and report back to us.
    What idea is that ? You realize the heading of the thread was Thought Experiment (if I hadn't misspelled Experiment) right ?
    Aren't ideas the same as thoughts? And if we didn't test our thoughts, ideas and theories, then no science would ever get done. I think you're on to something with this concept, but need to test it out to see if you're right. I'll even back your play funding 500 penny vouchers for the first test. Maybe this could turn into a a movement.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    I think that's a great idea. I nominate you to try it out and report back to us.
    What idea is that ? You realize the heading of the thread was Thought Experiment (if I hadn't misspelled Experiment) right ?
    Aren't ideas the same as thoughts? And if we didn't test our thoughts, ideas and theories, then no science would ever get done. I think you're on to something with this concept, but need to test it out to see if you're right. I'll even back your play funding 500 penny vouchers for the first test. Maybe this could turn into a a movement.
    Yes I had the thought about the loader. Since I am aware of the thought that I experienced, the speculation that I had this thought about the loader was a success. That's the thought that I wrote above - nothing else. That's why I asked what idea you were referring to. The other thought I am having is that you're Coach Belly.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    Does anyone know specifically what the law(s) is/are in Colorado or Pennsylvania? Like the wording of the specific regulations or whatever.

    If worded the right way (and it probably is), you could probably cause a big ol' ruckus.
    In Colorado that would be defined by § 12-47.1-823, C.R.S. Specifically, § 12-47.1-823(1)(c), C.R.S. which reads:

    "(c) To claim, collect, or take, or attempt to claim, collect, or take, money or anything of value in or from a limited gaming activity with intent to defraud and without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect, or take an amount greater than the amount won"

    HEY! That might actually cover the Double Up Flaw too!

    Here are a couple of links to the investigation that brought these practices to light.

    https://kdvr.com/2017/11/15/casino-c...-slot-credits/

    https://kdvr.com/2017/11/16/outrage-...-slot-credits/
    Had read the first link before but not the second about the 76cents and the man didn't even know. I always thought u had to have intent to take the money but apparently not.

    Good lord! Casinos are great at killing a golden goose. You have a frickin license to print money and then you go and do this sort of stuff. The only thing that keeps them in business is that there are so many degenerates that even a casino pulling this ridiculous sort of BS and the degenerates being aware they pull this, they will still play anyway. Goodness effing gracious!!!!

  20. #20
    Dan Druff went over this on one of his podcasts (PFA) recently and IIRC, his thought was it's the government or whatever Colorado gaming commission that's behind it to generate state revenue.
    #FreeTyde

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