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Thread: Video poker question

  1. #1
    I'm sorry if this will disappoint you but this question does not involve hate, criminality, bigotry or even politics.

    In Triple Double Bonus video poker four aces with a kicker pays the same as a royal.

    My question: do royals and AAAA + K appear with the same frequency? To put the question differently, do you have a 1/40,000 chance hitting both a royal and AAAA+K?

  2. #2
    No. AWAK occurs about every 14,000 hands or so.

  3. #3
    No,,,you are 1 in 14.2k for the aces w/ 2-4

  4. #4
    Hence the two credit payout for trips. Is that called volatility?
    Take off that stupid mask you big baby.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    I'm sorry if this will disappoint you but this question does not involve hate, criminality, bigotry or even politics.

    In Triple Double Bonus video poker four aces with a kicker pays the same as a royal.

    My question: do royals and AAAA + K appear with the same frequency? To put the question differently, do you have a 1/40,000 chance hitting both a royal and AAAA+K?
    Try Royal Aces bonus video poker if you want a high frequency chance (relatively speaking) of getting 4000 coins out for 5 in. 1 every 4,032 spins on average will get you paid like a royal flush (your resolved bet is 4 aces, regardless of kicker). Including the royal flush payline then, you will get paid 4000 coins every 3,663 spins on average. I'm sure there are some gimmick games with faster 4000 coin cycles like Dream Card, but you have to pay more coins for these gimmick games (10 coins instead of 5, for a 5 coin payout). I've seen 100 hand Royal Aces Bonus, so a true 4000 coin junky can camp out on one of these (playing 100 hands a spin).

  6. #6
    I've never seen Royal Aces Bonus. Is it in Las Vegas?

  7. #7
    I'm the only AP that ever wrote about a Bally video poker game called Draw Till U Win. It was a 103.2%. It went extinct about 14 years ago. Because of the strategy you had about a 33,000 chance of hitting a royal from the deal and draw. But you also had a chance to make a royal anytime your final hand was a non-paying 4-card royal. Examples:

    As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7s or As-Ks-Qs-Ts-Jh or As-Ks-Qs-Ts-Ac were paying hands so didn't qualify.

    As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21. And it could be even lower than that. If you were dealt a 3-card royal then discarded a high pair card, and/or straight card, and/or flush card, then caught a 4th royal card on the draw, your odds of making the royal in the Draw Till U Win feature was 1 in 20 or 1 in 19.

    The overall effect was reducing overall royals odds down to 9700. That was the problem with this game. If you played it heavily you averaged a royal a day. That brought a lot of attention to it from casino personnel. Some players were even accused of cheating and investigated by Gaming. I hit 3 royals in a day twice.

    At Stockmen's in Fallon, Nevada my ole' buddy Al and i were playing side by side when he hit 4 royals in 4 hours. That was the end of Draw Till U Win at Stockmen's. At the Carson Valley Inn in Minden, Nevada, Doug Reul hit 6 royals in one day and wound up having to explain to Gaming how he did that.

    It was fun while it lasted.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  8. #8
    Thank you Mr Crimm for your description about that game. But I don't understand something you said.

    "As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21."

    Weren't there still 47 cards remaining, so your chance of getting a royal remained at 1 out of 47, or did the game limit the selection of remaining cards to allow you to draw from the 21 cards you mentioned?

    And was there an extra charge similar to the extra charge to play Dream Card?

  9. #9
    It's 1 in 21. The only cards that end the hand are winners.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    It's 1 in 21. The only cards that end the hand are winners.
    You continue to draw UNTIL you hit a winner?
    Can you draw through 26 cards?

  11. #11
    I don't understand how they released a game with such a large off the top edge. Did they just not know or did they assume most people would play far below optimal expectation?

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    I've never seen Royal Aces Bonus. Is it in Las Vegas?
    I don't live in the area, but I believe it is there.

  13. #13

  14. #14
    It's been at the Masquerade Bar at the Rio for years.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Thank you Mr Crimm for your description about that game. But I don't understand something you said.

    "As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21."

    Weren't there still 47 cards remaining, so your chance of getting a royal remained at 1 out of 47, or did the game limit the selection of remaining cards to allow you to draw from the 21 cards you mentioned?

    And was there an extra charge similar to the extra charge to play Dream Card?
    You keep drawing cards until you hit a pay. 47 cards are remaining but only 21 of them are paying cards. Only the paying cards count.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Thank you Mr Crimm for your description about that game. But I don't understand something you said.

    "As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21."

    Weren't there still 47 cards remaining, so your chance of getting a royal remained at 1 out of 47, or did the game limit the selection of remaining cards to allow you to draw from the 21 cards you mentioned?

    And was there an extra charge similar to the extra charge to play Dream Card?
    You keep drawing cards until you hit a pay. 47 cards are remaining but only 21 of them are paying cards. Only the paying cards count.
    Thank you. That's amazing. Was it a widespread game or a "loss leader" game with limited distribution?

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    It's 1 in 21. The only cards that end the hand are winners.
    You continue to draw UNTIL you hit a winner?
    Can you draw through 26 cards?
    You can draw as many cards as it takes to make a paying hand. So yes, if it takes 26 cards to finally get a paying hand.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    It's been at the Masquerade Bar at the Rio for years.
    There's at least 3 bartops with it at Pioneer Crossing in Fernley. I think Bodines also has it in Carson, but not 100% sure.

  19. #19
    Good Information Mickeycrimm!
    I actually talked about Draw Till You Win on several boards many times.
    Nobody was interested or knew/understood the game.
    I have a friend who always talks and dreams about finding that game somewhere in the back of some Casino that was mistakenly put in from storage.
    The game was fun while it lasted as you say... so was 100 play Jacks of Better with a strong card.
    My playing days are just about done but I do miss how easy it used to be.
    I plan to move in the Spring of 2020 out of Vegas and Retire with a Hobby Farm (40 to 80 acres most likely).
    I looked into Montana very seriously but the Hard Winters deter my wife.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Thank you Mr Crimm for your description about that game. But I don't understand something you said.

    "As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21."

    Weren't there still 47 cards remaining, so your chance of getting a royal remained at 1 out of 47, or did the game limit the selection of remaining cards to allow you to draw from the 21 cards you mentioned?

    And was there an extra charge similar to the extra charge to play Dream Card?
    You keep drawing cards until you hit a pay. 47 cards are remaining but only 21 of them are paying cards. Only the paying cards count.
    Thank you. That's amazing. Was it a widespread game or a "loss leader" game with limited distribution?
    First, the Draw Till U Win feature also applied to straight flush cards. If you wind up with a 4-card straight flush like 4-5-6-7 you get to Draw Till U win. In this spot there is only 15 pay cards, 7 flush cards, 6 straight cards and 2 straight flush cards. So your chance of making the straight flush is just 1 in 7.5. Inside straight flush cards like 4-6-7-8 were also eligible. The overall effect was reducing straight flush odds from about 9500 down to 1050.

    The game was developed back in the nineties when manufacturers were not so boned up on payback percentages. When Gaming investigated Doug Reul they contacted Bally and Bally couldn't tell them the payback of the game. The game was 6/5 Double Bonus Poker with the Draw Till U Win feature. If you played it like regular Jacks or Better you would get only about a 98% return. No software on the market can analyze this game. When I first found out about the game no one would give me the strategy so I had to calculate and write it myself.

    I had to dead reckon how to write the strategy. I first had to calculate the EV's for all the 4-card royals and 4-card straight flushes in Draw Till U Win mode. Then I had to create a new category for them. When you put an EV on a drawing hand it looks like this:

    As-Ks-Qs-8c-7d

    Total Combinations on the draw = 1081
    Paying Combinations:
    High Pair = 348 combinations
    2 Pair = 27 combinations
    3K = 9 combinations
    Straight = 15 combinations
    Flush = 44 combinations
    Non-Paying 4-Card Royal = 37 combinations

    I had to include the expected value of the 4-card royals in Draw Till U Win mode to get the right value and placement in the strategy chart. After determining the right number of combinations you multiply them out by their payoffs then divide by 1081 to get the actual value of the drawing hand and it's placement in the strategy chart. I had to do the same with 2-card royals and even 1-card royals. And also the straight flush hands.

    Doug Reul wrote a program to analyze the game when it first came out and it put the game at 103.2% with optimum strategy. This is just some stuff where some pros outsmarted the manufacturers.
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 10-07-2019 at 06:51 AM.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

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