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  1. #1
    I'm sorry if this will disappoint you but this question does not involve hate, criminality, bigotry or even politics.

    In Triple Double Bonus video poker four aces with a kicker pays the same as a royal.

    My question: do royals and AAAA + K appear with the same frequency? To put the question differently, do you have a 1/40,000 chance hitting both a royal and AAAA+K?

  2. #2
    No. AWAK occurs about every 14,000 hands or so.

  3. #3
    No,,,you are 1 in 14.2k for the aces w/ 2-4

  4. #4
    Hence the two credit payout for trips. Is that called volatility?
    Take off that stupid mask you big baby.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    I'm sorry if this will disappoint you but this question does not involve hate, criminality, bigotry or even politics.

    In Triple Double Bonus video poker four aces with a kicker pays the same as a royal.

    My question: do royals and AAAA + K appear with the same frequency? To put the question differently, do you have a 1/40,000 chance hitting both a royal and AAAA+K?
    Try Royal Aces bonus video poker if you want a high frequency chance (relatively speaking) of getting 4000 coins out for 5 in. 1 every 4,032 spins on average will get you paid like a royal flush (your resolved bet is 4 aces, regardless of kicker). Including the royal flush payline then, you will get paid 4000 coins every 3,663 spins on average. I'm sure there are some gimmick games with faster 4000 coin cycles like Dream Card, but you have to pay more coins for these gimmick games (10 coins instead of 5, for a 5 coin payout). I've seen 100 hand Royal Aces Bonus, so a true 4000 coin junky can camp out on one of these (playing 100 hands a spin).

  6. #6
    I've never seen Royal Aces Bonus. Is it in Las Vegas?

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    I've never seen Royal Aces Bonus. Is it in Las Vegas?
    I don't live in the area, but I believe it is there.

  8. #8
    I'm the only AP that ever wrote about a Bally video poker game called Draw Till U Win. It was a 103.2%. It went extinct about 14 years ago. Because of the strategy you had about a 33,000 chance of hitting a royal from the deal and draw. But you also had a chance to make a royal anytime your final hand was a non-paying 4-card royal. Examples:

    As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7s or As-Ks-Qs-Ts-Jh or As-Ks-Qs-Ts-Ac were paying hands so didn't qualify.

    As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21. And it could be even lower than that. If you were dealt a 3-card royal then discarded a high pair card, and/or straight card, and/or flush card, then caught a 4th royal card on the draw, your odds of making the royal in the Draw Till U Win feature was 1 in 20 or 1 in 19.

    The overall effect was reducing overall royals odds down to 9700. That was the problem with this game. If you played it heavily you averaged a royal a day. That brought a lot of attention to it from casino personnel. Some players were even accused of cheating and investigated by Gaming. I hit 3 royals in a day twice.

    At Stockmen's in Fallon, Nevada my ole' buddy Al and i were playing side by side when he hit 4 royals in 4 hours. That was the end of Draw Till U Win at Stockmen's. At the Carson Valley Inn in Minden, Nevada, Doug Reul hit 6 royals in one day and wound up having to explain to Gaming how he did that.

    It was fun while it lasted.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    I'm the only AP that ever wrote about a Bally video poker game called Draw Till U Win. It was a 103.2%. It went extinct about 14 years ago. Because of the strategy you had about a 33,000 chance of hitting a royal from the deal and draw. But you also had a chance to make a royal anytime your final hand was a non-paying 4-card royal. Examples:

    As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7s or As-Ks-Qs-Ts-Jh or As-Ks-Qs-Ts-Ac were paying hands so didn't qualify.

    As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21. And it could be even lower than that. If you were dealt a 3-card royal then discarded a high pair card, and/or straight card, and/or flush card, then caught a 4th royal card on the draw, your odds of making the royal in the Draw Till U Win feature was 1 in 20 or 1 in 19.

    The overall effect was reducing overall royals odds down to 9700. That was the problem with this game. If you played it heavily you averaged a royal a day. That brought a lot of attention to it from casino personnel. Some players were even accused of cheating and investigated by Gaming. I hit 3 royals in a day twice.

    At Stockmen's in Fallon, Nevada my ole' buddy Al and i were playing side by side when he hit 4 royals in 4 hours. That was the end of Draw Till U Win at Stockmen's. At the Carson Valley Inn in Minden, Nevada, Doug Reul hit 6 royals in one day and wound up having to explain to Gaming how he did that.

    It was fun while it lasted.
    I played that game in Reno. It was Baldini’s in 2001. It had two guns as the icon. The over cycle for the Royal Flush was under 9,000 because you would break a pat flush if it had 4 to the Royal.

    There are lots of 103% or 102% video poker games off the top of you know where to find them.

    Spielo had several over 100% VP games in Montana. Best one involved Triple Aces or better gets you a bonus round with multipliers.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Spielo had several over 100% VP games in Montana. Best one involved Triple Aces or better gets you a bonus round with multipliers.
    Did you mean Grand Vision Gaming, rather than Spielo ?
    Speaking of Baldini's (<100% RTP):

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  11. #11
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Spielo had several over 100% VP games in Montana. Best one involved Triple Aces or better gets you a bonus round with multipliers.
    Did you mean Grand Vision Gaming, rather than Spielo ?
    Speaking of Baldini's (<100% RTP):

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    Dude, do you even know what a 103%+ non-progressive VP game looks like? I played them *only* after very smart people point them out to me. I have never found a 103%+ non-progressive VP in my entire 20+ year career ... very hard to find them, but people find them and as Micky Crimm said himself someone had tipped him off.

    The game was Triple Ace Poker and I doubt Mickey Crimm played it in Montana. Chicken Ranch casino near Jamestown removed their last two Spielo’s and the short pay Triple Ace Poker were on both of those machines in the back of the casino. Those two remaining Spielo’s uprights got removed right around the time Chicken Ranch removed Cash Eruption and other +EV bonus games like Jungle Riches (this was before their big expansion). Right about the time Cash Eruption and Jungle Riches also disappeared from nearby Black Oak casino ... too much of a coincidence if you ask me.

    The 103%+ Triple Ace Poker was only known to a few people who had the right skills to analyze the game due to a difficult feature.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post

    Dude, do you even know what a 103%+ non-progressive VP game looks like?
    Yes. I 5-coin several UX plays daily. These are non-progressives and they start at around 105% ;-)

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Dude, do you even know what a 103%+ non-progressive VP game looks like? I played them *only* after very smart people point them out to me. I have never found a 103%+ non-progressive VP in my entire 20+ year career ... very hard to find them, but people find them and as Micky Crimm said himself someone had tipped him off.

    The game was Triple Ace Poker and I doubt Mickey Crimm played it in Montana. Chicken Ranch casino near Jamestown removed their last two Spielo’s and the short pay Triple Ace Poker were on both of those machines in the back of the casino. Those two remaining Spielo’s uprights got removed right around the time Chicken Ranch removed Cash Eruption and other +EV bonus games like Jungle Riches (this was before their big expansion). Right about the time Cash Eruption and Jungle Riches also disappeared from nearby Black Oak casino ... too much of a coincidence if you ask me.

    The 103%+ Triple Ace Poker was only known to a few people who had the right skills to analyze the game due to a difficult feature.
    This is the post where ex-ap gets snarky with tableplay for no reason. And he also made some erroneous assertions. "I doubt Mickey Crimm played it in Montana." Wrong. I analyzed Triple Ace Poker many years ago.

    Why would ex-ap point out that a short pay version of Triple Ace Poker was removed from a casino? If there was a positive pay version then where was it? What was the payscale? In the short pay version where was the chop made on the payscale?

    And this statement: "The 103% Triple Ace Poker was only known to a few people who had the right skills to analyze the game due to a difficult feature."
    This statement is both interesting and telling. Ex-Ap does not say that HE analyzed the game. He states "people who had the right skills" analyzed the game.

    Perhaps there was a positive version in California. Either that or those that analyzed the game made a mistake. When you make 3 Aces, Aces Full or 4 Aces you are awarded multipliers for the next 8 games. But the games are not free. You still have to pay for them. If this was not factored in then the game will show positive. If its factored in then the game will show negative. At least that's the way it is with the Montana payscale. So they may have made a mistake in analyzing the game.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    I'm the only AP that ever wrote about a Bally video poker game called Draw Till U Win. It was a 103.2%. It went extinct about 14 years ago. Because of the strategy you had about a 33,000 chance of hitting a royal from the deal and draw. But you also had a chance to make a royal anytime your final hand was a non-paying 4-card royal. Examples:

    As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7s or As-Ks-Qs-Ts-Jh or As-Ks-Qs-Ts-Ac were paying hands so didn't qualify.

    As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21. And it could be even lower than that. If you were dealt a 3-card royal then discarded a high pair card, and/or straight card, and/or flush card, then caught a 4th royal card on the draw, your odds of making the royal in the Draw Till U Win feature was 1 in 20 or 1 in 19.

    The overall effect was reducing overall royals odds down to 9700. That was the problem with this game. If you played it heavily you averaged a royal a day. That brought a lot of attention to it from casino personnel. Some players were even accused of cheating and investigated by Gaming. I hit 3 royals in a day twice.

    At Stockmen's in Fallon, Nevada my ole' buddy Al and i were playing side by side when he hit 4 royals in 4 hours. That was the end of Draw Till U Win at Stockmen's. At the Carson Valley Inn in Minden, Nevada, Doug Reul hit 6 royals in one day and wound up having to explain to Gaming how he did that.

    It was fun while it lasted.
    I played that game in Reno. It was Baldini’s in 2001. It had two guns as the icon. The over cycle for the Royal Flush was under 9,000 because you would break a pat flush if it had 4 to the Royal.
    The royal frequency is 9700 according to the program/analyzer that Doug Reul, former writer for Video Poker Times, wrote for the game. Doug is the one that discovered the game was 103%. Your assertion that the royal freq. is under 9000 is wrong and I would point out that you break a pat flush for a four card royal at most all video poker games.

    There are several reasons for the big reduction in royals odds (from 40K down to 9.7K).

    First, you are drawing to more 2 and 3 card royals than normal video poker.

    Second, when you wind up with a 4 card royal after the draw you get to draw one card at a time until you win. In normal video poker the hand would be over at that point.

    Third, since you get to draw until you win it eliminates a lot of cards. In normal video poker the royal chances would be 1 in 47. But the non-paying cards are eliminated so the royal freq. is enhanced to 1 in 26 or better depending on how many pay cards you may have thrown away before the draw. And the 4 card royal with 4 high cards has at least a 1 in 23 chance.

    It was a feeble attempt here by ex-ap to act like he knew anything about Draw Till U Win.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Spielo had several over 100% VP games in Montana. Best one involved Triple Aces or better gets you a bonus round with multipliers.
    The above statement is false. I found only one Spielo game, Joker's Vault, a progressive video poker game that will go positive. It's been around for many years but I rarely find one with a playable number.

    Triple Aces Poker in Montana is a 97% video poker game. It's had the same payscale since it came out.

    I could have pointed all this out last year when this thread was fresh but I let it go. Ex-Ap has proven to be an insufferable prick so I'm not letting it go anymore.
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 07-21-2020 at 05:08 AM.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  16. #16
    Thank you Mr Crimm for your description about that game. But I don't understand something you said.

    "As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21."

    Weren't there still 47 cards remaining, so your chance of getting a royal remained at 1 out of 47, or did the game limit the selection of remaining cards to allow you to draw from the 21 cards you mentioned?

    And was there an extra charge similar to the extra charge to play Dream Card?

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Thank you Mr Crimm for your description about that game. But I don't understand something you said.

    "As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21."

    Weren't there still 47 cards remaining, so your chance of getting a royal remained at 1 out of 47, or did the game limit the selection of remaining cards to allow you to draw from the 21 cards you mentioned?

    And was there an extra charge similar to the extra charge to play Dream Card?
    You keep drawing cards until you hit a pay. 47 cards are remaining but only 21 of them are paying cards. Only the paying cards count.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Thank you Mr Crimm for your description about that game. But I don't understand something you said.

    "As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21."

    Weren't there still 47 cards remaining, so your chance of getting a royal remained at 1 out of 47, or did the game limit the selection of remaining cards to allow you to draw from the 21 cards you mentioned?

    And was there an extra charge similar to the extra charge to play Dream Card?
    You keep drawing cards until you hit a pay. 47 cards are remaining but only 21 of them are paying cards. Only the paying cards count.
    Thank you. That's amazing. Was it a widespread game or a "loss leader" game with limited distribution?

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Thank you Mr Crimm for your description about that game. But I don't understand something you said.

    "As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21."

    Weren't there still 47 cards remaining, so your chance of getting a royal remained at 1 out of 47, or did the game limit the selection of remaining cards to allow you to draw from the 21 cards you mentioned?

    And was there an extra charge similar to the extra charge to play Dream Card?
    You keep drawing cards until you hit a pay. 47 cards are remaining but only 21 of them are paying cards. Only the paying cards count.
    Thank you. That's amazing. Was it a widespread game or a "loss leader" game with limited distribution?
    First, the Draw Till U Win feature also applied to straight flush cards. If you wind up with a 4-card straight flush like 4-5-6-7 you get to Draw Till U win. In this spot there is only 15 pay cards, 7 flush cards, 6 straight cards and 2 straight flush cards. So your chance of making the straight flush is just 1 in 7.5. Inside straight flush cards like 4-6-7-8 were also eligible. The overall effect was reducing straight flush odds from about 9500 down to 1050.

    The game was developed back in the nineties when manufacturers were not so boned up on payback percentages. When Gaming investigated Doug Reul they contacted Bally and Bally couldn't tell them the payback of the game. The game was 6/5 Double Bonus Poker with the Draw Till U Win feature. If you played it like regular Jacks or Better you would get only about a 98% return. No software on the market can analyze this game. When I first found out about the game no one would give me the strategy so I had to calculate and write it myself.

    I had to dead reckon how to write the strategy. I first had to calculate the EV's for all the 4-card royals and 4-card straight flushes in Draw Till U Win mode. Then I had to create a new category for them. When you put an EV on a drawing hand it looks like this:

    As-Ks-Qs-8c-7d

    Total Combinations on the draw = 1081
    Paying Combinations:
    High Pair = 348 combinations
    2 Pair = 27 combinations
    3K = 9 combinations
    Straight = 15 combinations
    Flush = 44 combinations
    Non-Paying 4-Card Royal = 37 combinations

    I had to include the expected value of the 4-card royals in Draw Till U Win mode to get the right value and placement in the strategy chart. After determining the right number of combinations you multiply them out by their payoffs then divide by 1081 to get the actual value of the drawing hand and it's placement in the strategy chart. I had to do the same with 2-card royals and even 1-card royals. And also the straight flush hands.

    Doug Reul wrote a program to analyze the game when it first came out and it put the game at 103.2% with optimum strategy. This is just some stuff where some pros outsmarted the manufacturers.
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 10-07-2019 at 06:51 AM.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  20. #20
    It's 1 in 21. The only cards that end the hand are winners.

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