I think playing without a Player's Card is stupid.

[kewlJ]

I actually have another current situation involving blackjack but not card counting that I am doing that I am not ready to talk about and I have the option of playing rated because I am perceived as a losing player. So far I have not taken that option, but almost every day I wonder if I should be. I am concerned that at some point the casinos will figure this out and I will be back forced to play the "cat and mouse game". So I don't want to pre- "out myself" for a relatively small amount, especially in Las Vegas.

[slingshot]

Two years ago I lost my Diamond status because of decrease of play. I did not change my rate of play that much-only had a slight increase in winnings. After 9 months into the year, I was suddenly surprised. I lost my card and when I went for reprint, they told me I had recently been restored to Diamond. I no longer had to earn tier points on promo days and have a home full of cookware, crockpots, blenders,clothing,etc. Some made nice Christmas gifts. They still forfeit the buffet offers I once had, but I could always cash in my credits for that.

Not every Advantage Player such as yourself can hide all their skills like you do. You are one in a million who has slipped through the cracks and can play forever. Maybe you should give one of those crockpots to Rob Singer for Christmas.

I have no idea why you posted your comment. I was replying to Tasha. An AP is forever playing-I had quit playing as much. No where was Rob mentined-guess he really gets to you. I really enjoy picking up these gifts, and was trying to reply in the affirmative. I left my card at home one day and the cages were closed- but I couldn't tell any difference in play.

[redietz]

Here's one reason to play WITHOUT a card if you are a sports bettor. It's also a reason to bet sports WITH a card if you are a CET addict. Bear with me if that seems contradictory. CET uses a complex, not-really-analyzable system for rating players for sports limits. Now it may be changing soon with the Eldorado takeover, but as it stands--

The amount you can bet on a game can be affected by your CET rating. If you are an established idiot, say Seven Stars, you will be able to plunk down more per game than a non-idiot with a basic card. So establishing that you are a property-wide loser with your Seven Stars will liberalize how much you can bet. However, if you happen to win long term betting sports, as few do, that will then be in their data base and can be data-mined. It will also then have the interesting feedback effect of reducing how much you can bet per game.

These are not rules you are likely to find on a brochure. When I did my book survey about 10 years ago, however, some managers were more forthcoming with the reality of what they do than I suspect CET would have liked.

[kewlJ]

There are reasons to play unrated even for a non-AP. Your daily average for one. Mail offers are calculated using your daily average. Suppose you are just on a quick trip, maybe going to play for a half hour, playing rated could actually lower your daily average and result in lesser future offer amounts.

I actually will use this excuse if pressed about playing rated. I will say something like I only have 20 minutes and don't want to lower my daily average and screw up future offers. And I have never had any pit critter push further because they know it is true. And since I play short sessions, when I get up 20 minutes later, it just re-affirms what I said.

[DGenBen]

Here's one reason to play WITHOUT a card if you are a sports bettor. It's also a reason to bet sports WITH a card if you are a CET addict. Bear with me if that seems contradictory. CET uses a complex, not-really-analyzable system for rating players for sports limits. Now it may be changing soon with the Eldorado takeover, but as it stands--

The amount you can bet on a game can be affected by your CET rating. If you are an established idiot, say Seven Stars, you will be able to plunk down more per game than a non-idiot with a basic card. So establishing that you are a property-wide loser with your Seven Stars will liberalize how much you can bet. However, if you happen to win long term betting sports, as few do, that will then be in their data base and can be data-mined. It will also then have the interesting feedback effect of reducing how much you can bet per game.

These are not rules you are likely to find on a brochure. When I did my book survey about 10 years ago, however, some managers were more forthcoming with the reality of what they do than I suspect CET would have liked.

So I’m curios, I know nothing at all about sports betting, but I keep reading about good sports bettors getting barred or having their limits taken way down and I keep wondering, other than tax implications why dont they just have other people place their bets? Is that illegal? Feels like Im missing something big on this.

[redietz]

Here's one reason to play WITHOUT a card if you are a sports bettor. It's also a reason to bet sports WITH a card if you are a CET addict. Bear with me if that seems contradictory. CET uses a complex, not-really-analyzable system for rating players for sports limits. Now it may be changing soon with the Eldorado takeover, but as it stands--

The amount you can bet on a game can be affected by your CET rating. If you are an established idiot, say Seven Stars, you will be able to plunk down more per game than a non-idiot with a basic card. So establishing that you are a property-wide loser with your Seven Stars will liberalize how much you can bet. However, if you happen to win long term betting sports, as few do, that will then be in their data base and can be data-mined. It will also then have the interesting feedback effect of reducing how much you can bet per game.

These are not rules you are likely to find on a brochure. When I did my book survey about 10 years ago, however, some managers were more forthcoming with the reality of what they do than I suspect CET would have liked.

So I’m curios, I know nothing at all about sports betting, but I keep reading about good sports bettors getting barred or having their limits taken way down and I keep wondering, other than tax implications why dont they just have other people place their bets? Is that illegal? Feels like Im missing something big on this.

Yeah, it's become more or less illegal to have someone else place your bets. This is a recent development, due in part to Billy Walters having folks running around for him. Back in the day, 30 years ago, "runners" filled Las Vegas sports books. In fact, there's a really bad movie that I love, The Runner, with John Goodman playing the Billy Walters role. Anyway, the runners would generally be carrying six digits in cash, usually armed, and scouting numbers for big bettors. Even though I was generally carrying 30K and up all the time in those days, and once in awhile closer to six digits, I was nothing compared to the runners, so I was never much concerned with robbery attempts or even being noticed in the books. Small fish, big pond

The runners have been technically outlawed. I say technically because the books don't give a damn about civilians placing hundred dollar bets for their cousins. They just want to limit the simultaneous coordination of players like Billy Walters. So no, you are technically not supposed to be betting for other people, and if they catch you, they will occasionally hold your money. And then debates begin.

So "Singer" last year reporting on this, a public forum, the specific amounts of bets he had other people place for him in Las Vegas -- not smart. Demonstrated a real lack of knowledge.

[accountinquestion]

Here's one reason to play WITHOUT a card if you are a sports bettor. It's also a reason to bet sports WITH a card if you are a CET addict. Bear with me if that seems contradictory. CET uses a complex, not-really-analyzable system for rating players for sports limits. Now it may be changing soon with the Eldorado takeover, but as it stands--

The amount you can bet on a game can be affected by your CET rating. If you are an established idiot, say Seven Stars, you will be able to plunk down more per game than a non-idiot with a basic card. So establishing that you are a property-wide loser with your Seven Stars will liberalize how much you can bet. However, if you happen to win long term betting sports, as few do, that will then be in their data base and can be data-mined. It will also then have the interesting feedback effect of reducing how much you can bet per game.

These are not rules you are likely to find on a brochure. When I did my book survey about 10 years ago, however, some managers were more forthcoming with the reality of what they do than I suspect CET would have liked.

So I’m curios, I know nothing at all about sports betting, but I keep reading about good sports bettors getting barred or having their limits taken way down and I keep wondering, other than tax implications why dont they just have other people place their bets? Is that illegal? Feels like Im missing something big on this.

Yeah, it's become more or less illegal to have someone else place your bets. This is a recent development, due in part to Billy Walters having folks running around for him. Back in the day, 30 years ago, "runners" filled Las Vegas sports books. In fact, there's a really bad movie that I love, The Runner, with John Goodman playing the Billy Walters role. Anyway, the runners would generally be carrying six digits in cash, usually armed, and scouting numbers for big bettors. Even though I was generally carrying 30K and up all the time in those days, and once in awhile closer to six digits, I was nothing compared to the runners, so I was never much concerned with robbery attempts or even being noticed in the books. Small fish, big pond

The runners have been technically outlawed. I say technically because the books don't give a damn about civilians placing hundred dollar bets for their cousins. They just want to limit the simultaneous coordination of players like Billy Walters. So no, you are technically not supposed to be betting for other people, and if they catch you, they will occasionally hold your money. And then debates begin.

So "Singer" last year reporting on this, a public forum, the specific amounts of bets he had other people place for him in Las Vegas -- not smart. Demonstrated a real lack of knowledge.

Is it actually illegal or just that they track everyone now and so they can cut you off if they realize you're doing it? I know it is illegal to go across state lines, but is it illegal otherwise?

Man the world was a lot more fun back then. So many fucking holes in everything. Granted no internet to spread info, but sheesh.

[redietz]

So I’m curios, I know nothing at all about sports betting, but I keep reading about good sports bettors getting barred or having their limits taken way down and I keep wondering, other than tax implications why dont they just have other people place their bets? Is that illegal? Feels like Im missing something big on this.

Yeah, it's become more or less illegal to have someone else place your bets. This is a recent development, due in part to Billy Walters having folks running around for him. Back in the day, 30 years ago, "runners" filled Las Vegas sports books. In fact, there's a really bad movie that I love, The Runner, with John Goodman playing the Billy Walters role. Anyway, the runners would generally be carrying six digits in cash, usually armed, and scouting numbers for big bettors. Even though I was generally carrying 30K and up all the time in those days, and once in awhile closer to six digits, I was nothing compared to the runners, so I was never much concerned with robbery attempts or even being noticed in the books. Small fish, big pond

The runners have been technically outlawed. I say technically because the books don't give a damn about civilians placing hundred dollar bets for their cousins. They just want to limit the simultaneous coordination of players like Billy Walters. So no, you are technically not supposed to be betting for other people, and if they catch you, they will occasionally hold your money. And then debates begin.

So "Singer" last year reporting on this, a public forum, the specific amounts of bets he had other people place for him in Las Vegas -- not smart. Demonstrated a real lack of knowledge.

Is it actually illegal or just that they track everyone now and so they can cut you off if they realize you're doing it? I know it is illegal to go across state lines, but is it illegal otherwise?

Man the world was a lot more fun back then. So many fucking holes in everything. Granted no internet to spread info, but sheesh.

Don't quote me on this as my Las Vegas wagering the last 10 years or so has been 90% futures, so I haven't done much big ticket straight wager stuff with one exception, but my understanding is that it's a Gaming Control rule, so if you consider that law, then it's law. Sometimes the casinos don't -- LOL. It's something they use "with discretion." So they'll call on it when they want and ignore it when they want. If you can, you'd be doing me and the forum a favor by pinning down when it was instituted and if there have been many announced enforcements.

And seriously, if you can dig up a DVD of "The Runner" on Amazon, buy it. It's bad but wild, and John Goodman chews up the scenery as a supporting actor. It does capture one element of Las Vegas real well -- the constant need for discipline. Every blessed second of every blessed day. Iron clad discipline. When the main character has a bad hour, that sets the wheels in motion.

[accountinquestion]

Playing for comps is simply not a winning strategy in 2019 for advantage players Tasha. There was a time is could have been if done right. I'll get to the most unique example I know of in a minute.

For AP's time is money, and that goes for any kind of game you play. I am going to stick to blackjack for a minute because it is what I know and do. First of all the casino industry has a rating system as far as comps. Not all players are rated the same. I forget the exact terminology that was used when this was relayed to me by a pit friend, but for blackjack there were like 4 different level (maybe different at different locations). So when a player was rated he was rated as "bad player", "losing player", "basic strategy player" or "advantage player".

so 4 different players hand in there cards and play rated and play for an hour playing roughly the same stakes, they are going to earn different rates of comps and offers. For the advantage player comps and offers, will be minimum, may dry up completely. This is often one of the first counter-measures implemented against table game AP's.

For the other 3 ratings, all are playing a losing game, the basic strategy player only slightly losing and the other two, increasingly so. So someone rated as a "bad player" (or whatever corresponding term each casino may use), this would be a player standing on all his 13's, 14's 15's, even against 9's and 10's. Or maybe he hits his similar 13, 14, 14, 16 vs a dealer break card, or splitting his 7's vs the dealer 10 card. That type of thing. This player is going to get far more comps for the same level and time play as a basic strategy player, that is playing just a slightly losing game.

The rating game is for the casinos to identify the worst players and entice them back by giving them a small percentage of their expected loss back, knowing they will lose many times that.

For a while, a long while this seemed to be confined to table game players. The machine experts can correct that statement if they feel it is wrong, but it is my understanding that for a long time, machine players could play their winning game and pile on the comps on top with no consequences. That all seemed to change just a couple years ago, when casinos began extending their war on AP's to machine players. The first I really saw this in Vegas was Boyd, but it is everywhere now. The free ride for machine players is or has come to an end. And in a way they have in worse because they can't rat-hole chips to disguise win as table players can. Although there are a few tricks.

Now let's go back to blackjack. Before I moved to Vegas, there was a common trick employed by visiting blackjack AP's. You would have one location that you toned down your play, smaller, less aggressive spread ect and played rated, to earn hotel and food comps, for either the trip you were on or hotel comps for the next trip. The rest of the trip you would play aggressively, unrated, full spread, no holds barred. I too did this for a a few trips and than analyzed it. So lets say my regular EV is $100/hr (which it may have been back then). I would tone down my spread, maybe playing a game worth $50/hour for 3-4 hours earning a free hotel room. Now mind you weekday hotel rooms on the strip, not at the top places like Wynn (at the time), but Caesars properties like Harrah, planet Hollywood, ect started at $29 weekdays. Maybe $39 at MGM properties. Toning down the spread cost $200, for a free hotel room valued at less than 20% of that. Needless to say, I stopped toning down my spread and playing rated and earned my full EV and started paying for my own rooms.

After I moved to Vegas and got into a limited amount of machine play, I had the best of both worlds, just like the machine players did for so long. I played blackjack unrated (except for one unique place), and played a small amount of machine play that would keep the mailers and offers flowing. But I never mixed the two, not even on the same visit. As a matter of fact it was even better than that because there was a different person playing my machine play. Today, I have all but given up machine play aspect of my AP. I play just a very small amount, just enough to eat for free daily and I since I am playing both parts I never play machines and rated at a property in my blackjack rotation that I play unrated.

I know....my usual long post with some personal experiences. The bottom line Tasha is do you really thing the casinos are giving comps and stuff just to be nice. It is about identifying losing players and giving then a tiny amount of losses to entice them back, while at the same time identifying winning players so they can stop giving them anything (first counter-measure) and eventually take further action to remove them.

Rooms being $100 for starters at many places changes the comp calculations some. Also having easy access to the casino is a lot nicer than some motel a mile down the road. (Not really talking so much about Vegas)

This 4 tiers of player ratings is fascinating. I've always wondered how that works. Is it always 4 levels for all table games? It would be so stupid for casinos to have those little terminals where they put down all the info and then not keep track of whether player takes the sucker bets or whatever. (any info on this anywhere?)

On a random note - I am surprised they made face up pai gow poker. Seems like the game would have a higher hold (that the right term?) when players can fuck their hands up. It even has less of a house edge. Why spread it over other paigow poker? To avoid commission calculations?

[kewlJ]

This 4 tiers of player ratings is fascinating. I've always wondered how that works. Is it always 4 levels for all table games??

Good question. My conversations was with a friend that works the pit at a major strip casino (part of 1 of the 2 big chains) and it was strictly about blackjack. So, I don't know the answer about other games. And I don't even know if he was speaking only for his casino or this is the way this whole chain does it. I would guess the whole chain, but that is just a guess. Other casinos and chains may be different, but I am guessing not that much different. If I remember correctly either in his book or in an interview, Bill Zender described a very similar 4 tier approach that his casino, Alladin used.

You could use 5 tiers or 3 tiers and call the different levels whatever you want, but the goal is to comp the worse players, the bigger losing players, more and send them better offers than "better" players playing the same amounts. And give nothing or little to players suspected of playing with an advantage or even close to break even. The casino may or may not tolerate them, but they don't want to give them anything on top.

[accountinquestion]

It is only a matter of time. I can't remember but some casino was complaining about how some minority of the players cost the casinos more than they make off them. I can't imagine it getting much better in this regard.

There must be coaching on how to rate players for pit bosses. It would be useful to know what they're taught to look for.

[kewlJ]

It also is pretty well known that not only do players playing the exact same amounts and time receive different offers based on whether they are a better or worse players, but also based on demographics. Women receive better then males with the same rating, playing the exact same amounts. People with Asian sounding names will receive better offers than a player with a non Asian name. And players in certain zip codes receive better offers than other players rated the same and playing the same in other zip codes. I assume this is about average income per zip code.

Some of this stuff almost sounds like it approaches discrimination, but they use different terms, some kind of marketing targeting that makes it seem ok. These are the times we live in.

[kewlJ]

There must be coaching on how to rate players for pit bosses. It would be useful to know what they're taught to look for.

This discussion I have had extensively with my close pit friend and a couple other casual friends / acquaintances from different forums. This is very important to me because I am all about longevity and if you know what they are looking for, you know what not to do. Again, my discussion pertain strictly to blackjack.

In blackjack they are looking for 2 things. Moving money with the count and the way just a few common hands are played (played one way sometimes and differently others). These are big tells of a card counter. Sometimes they get it wrong. Sometimes they will suspect a non AP card counter of being a counter, just because he likes to vary his bets. Asians are notorious for this. And sometimes a player playing a hand like 16 vs 10 one way one time and differently the next isn't a card counter, but a player just going by hunches. I have seen sweaty places like El Cortez and South Point get it wrong and back off players that were no more counting than jumping over the moon.

But these are some of the things they look for in regards to card counters and when you know it, you can alter your game to avoid these tells and increase longevity. I suppose with other advantage plays, like HCing which is so popular now, among a variety of table games, there are other tells and things they look for. Maybe someone like jbjb would have more knowledge about that.

[accountinquestion]

There must be coaching on how to rate players for pit bosses. It would be useful to know what they're taught to look for.

This discussion I have had extensively with my close pit friend and a couple other casual friends / acquaintances from different forums. This is very important to me because I am all about longevity and if you know what they are looking for, you know what not to do. Again, my discussion pertain strictly to blackjack.

In blackjack they are looking for 2 things. Moving money with the count and the way just a few common hands are played (played one way sometimes and differently others). These are big tells of a card counter. Sometimes they get it wrong. Sometimes they will suspect a non AP card counter of being a counter, just because he likes to vary his bets. Asians are notorious for this. And sometimes a player playing a hand like 16 vs 10 one way one time and differently the next isn't a card counter, but a player just going by hunches. I have seen sweaty places like El Cortez and South Point get it wrong and back off players that were no more counting than jumping over the moon.

But these are some of the things they look for in regards to card counters and when you know it, you can alter your game to avoid these tells and increase longevity. I suppose with other advantage plays, like HCing which is so popular now, among a variety of table games, there are other tells and things they look for. Maybe someone like jbjb would have more knowledge about that.

Well I kinda get what they look for in card counters. Card counting is sorta a yes or no deal. This 4 tiered rating. Do they just hit 1 of 4 buttons every so often and it is averaged over time. Many different things that could be going on. Next time I should just ask when the pit boss seems chatty.

[Tasha]

Has anyone on here played exclusively hoping to lose in order to get comped ?

[slingshot]

Has anyone on here played exclusively hoping to lose in order to get comped ?

You really know how to stir up a stink. First thought that came to me was another rant on how a certain player lost thousands of dollars but still came out ahead.

[Tasha]

Has anyone on here played exclusively hoping to lose in order to get comped ?

You really know how to stir up a stink. First thought that came to me was another rant on how a certain player lost thousands of dollars but still came out ahead.

It was an innocent question. People on other websites said they wanted to lose so that they could get showered with Comps.

[The Boz]

Has anyone on here played exclusively hoping to lose in order to get comped ?

You really know how to stir up a stink. First thought that came to me was another rant on how a certain player lost thousands of dollars but still came out ahead.

It was an innocent question. People on other websites said they wanted to lose so that they could get showered with Comps.

[kewlJ]

While I think Tasha's question wasn't really sincere, I actually can answer "sort of".

It has been almost exactly 10 years since I moved to Vegas. A few days before thanksgiving 2009, I bought a condo a block off the strip (Koval and Flamingo) on an online auction. Before the end of the year, I had moved in, bringing only what I brought on the airplane and buying everything else. How time flies.

So I came to Vegas to play and pursue a career playing blackjack. I knew very little of other AP, especially anything to do with machines. Maybe read a little bit on some blackjack forums. But I had no interest. I was and still am about blackjack. So after I got here, one of the players that I networked with that lived here in Vegas, convinced me that not learning a little video poker play "was leaving money on the table" or refusing free money. That time only 10 years ago was far different than today. All the local casinos, meaning everything not on the strip were literally fighting over local players. For machine players, including video poker, they would send monthly mailers, with offers (free play) hugely disproportionate to the amount of coin-in. Not talking about their point/comp system, talking about separate mailer offers, like Monet and others has posted pictures of from time to time. These mailer offer amounts were way out of whack for the coin-in, on some of these properties. Hard Rock, Hilton (pre-Westage), Club Fortune, AZ Charlies were a few of the most generous at the time. I am sure I am forgetting some. Just a few thousand in coin-in could generate hundreds in free play a month or two later and those amounts would stick for a number of months even with little additional coin-in.

So, I learned full-pay JoB and 8/5 bonus. Two of the most common and easiest strategies to learn. And of course, both -EV. Now I wasn't "trying" or "wanting" to lose as Tasha put it, but that initial coin-in was -EV and certainly a long-term loser. Being that it was a long-term loser, I would rather expect that I lost over the years on only the coin-in. That's the way -EV works, although some here seem to have magical powers.

So I am going to assume I lost, initially. It was only after the mailer offer freeplay that the who exercise became a winning play. Unfortunately I didn't break it down as to how much I lost on just the coin in. There was already quite a bit of scheduling and paperwork, tracking results. So all I know is the play in it's entirety coin-in and mailer freeplay, was a consistent winner year after year. Not huge amounts, because I wasn't playing huge amounts, but initially 8-10k a year and that went up with multiple accounts. It got to be I could count on 20k a year supplemental income, plus a whole lot of food comps, enough to eat for free everyday. That was pretty good. It was literally like my friend told me....free money.

Unfortunately that really crazy period of disproportionate mail offers didn't last forever. 3-4 years ago, almost all those casinos began to tighten up. When my partner, who by then was handling all of our machine play, passed away, I just didn't have the desire and want to put in the time for amounts that were being reduced, so I all but gave that up and went back to my blackjack. I play just a very little bit now to get free meals. I get 3-4 mailers a month now, where I used to get 30-35.

So "trying to lose" and "wanting to lose"....NO. But I am sure the initial coin in at -EV was a losing play. It was only the disproportionate mailer amounts that made everything a winning play.

[kewlJ]

And BTW, if I had that to do over again, I think I would have suspended my blackjack play for 5 or 6 years and done just the mailer offers "free money gig". If I could pull down 20k, playing part-time, just a few thousand dollars coin in, imagine what some of these guys hitting this up fulltime with much greater coin-in were pulling in. Probably why machine AP took off at the time.

Yep with a do-over, I would have done only the machine play for 5-6 and come back to my blackjack when that machine "free money" era began to dry up. Would have been nice to have a number of years not playing the cat and mouse game and back offs and stuff. Hindsight….beautiful thing.

Ok, I am off to work now. Probably my last day of work in Vegas for the year. If I should decide not to post while traveling for a bit, Happy Thanksgiving and end of year holidays to all....and I mean all. Enjoy the holidays season with friends and family. While we are all happy that Mickey is doing well with his recovery, remember the lesson.....You never know how much time you have left. Make the most of it.