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Thread: The lack of new bonus machines

  1. #1
    My sources tell me some Reno bonus hustlers have already made their way to the Indian casinos in North California. And they are being rude as f*ck so they will get kicked out.

    I was at a casino checking out a new bonus machines. Found two no risk plays in 4 hours: $90 & $70 profit. The lack of new machines means it will be hard to pick up pocket changes, e.g. an extra 3 or 4 Benjiís.

    The only saving grace was that I found a play for a buddy that hustles monthly mailers so he was happy. Itís worth an extra $1,500 a month to him. I just donít have the time to put $10K, $20K, etc coin in per trip to trigger the mailers.

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    My sources tell me some Reno bonus hustlers have already made their way to the Indian casinos in North California. And they are being rude as f*ck so they will get kicked out.

    I was at a casino checking out a new bonus machines. Found two no risk plays in 4 hours: $90 & $70 profit. The lack of new machines means it will be hard to pick up pocket changes, e.g. an extra 3 or 4 Benjiís.

    The only saving grace was that I found a play for a buddy that hustles monthly mailers so he was happy. Itís worth an extra $1,500 a month to him. I just donít have the time to put $10K, $20K, etc coin in per trip to trigger the mailers.
    Im seeing bonus machines start to get pulled from some places too and these are some of the likely reasons:

    Hustlers get cute and lock the button panel at the highest bet highest denomination hoping a ploppy will accidentally play it and create a big play. In realty most ploppies are not going to take the time to figure out how to unlock the button panel and will just move on so the machine gets no action at all and gets pulled.

    Along the same lines on multi-denom machines hustlers often leave it on the highest denom after they check it (even if they dont lock the button panel) I assume for either the same reason as above or so they will know if they already checked it since people rarely play the higher denoms. The problem with this is that most ploppies are not yet familiar with mulitdenom machines so if they walk by and see a line video slot is quarters, dimes or nickels, they will move on looking for pennies (not realizing they can just change it) so again these machines get no action and get pulled.

    Hustlers also like to leave a bank of machines all on the highest bet for again I assume the same reasons and I think that also turns ploppies off. Ploppies are attracted to low minimum bets so when they walk by a bank where every machine is displaying a $6 or $7.50 bet they just move on even though a lower bet is available if they walked up to the machine and checked the button panel. So the machines get no action and they get pulled.

    Plus ploppies donít like a steady stream of sketchy looking people walking up to the machines right next to them and slamming on each bet at full volume without playing or getting stared at by same sketchy looking people who look like the spider waiting for the fly, so they can be the first to check the machine after the ploppy leaves. This causes ploppies to cash out and go somewhere else so the machines get less action and get pulled.

    Another trend Im seeing recently is on the IGT games with a 10 spin cycle, some hustlers will take one spin on every bet, every denomination (no advantage by the way) trying to load up a bunch of wilds on the first spin in which case they will play it off, but if they brick they will leave it at spin 1. As the ploppies get more familiar with these games, they come to play one but every bet & every denom is already starting at spin 1 (a dead spin) instead of spin zero like it should, they get turned off and dont play, the machines get no action and get pulled.

    Also the previously mentioned bonus hustlers that are not discrete and like to stand up and blast through each bet at full volume create new bonus hustlers as the ploppies see them and figure out what they are doing. One reason you find less plays now is that a lot of ploppies when they first sit down at one of these games will habitually check every bet before settling in to play having seen indiscrete hustlers do this.

    Too bad that so many hustlers donít take a long view or these machines and plays would last longer.

  3. #3
    I wouldn't be so sure it is hustlers picking off the first play. If you are a reasonably smart ploppy then such a strategy should come to you naturally. I also see more people abandoning bad spins. I think this sort of thing works against all these value holding machines. People become aware of it and don't want to play with low multipliers and/or wilds. People start to really understand the mechanics. Why play HD when the numbers are bad? People start to understand how it works and what was once a draw to the game now chases people away. People play off the higher multipliers then it gets little action.

    The last place I walked around in, more plays were to be found on OM than others.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure it is hustlers picking off the first play. If you are a reasonably smart ploppy then such a strategy should come to you naturally. I also see more people abandoning bad spins. I think this sort of thing works against all these value holding machines. People become aware of it and don't want to play with low multipliers and/or wilds. People start to really understand the mechanics. Why play HD when the numbers are bad? People start to understand how it works and what was once a draw to the game now chases people away. People play off the higher multipliers then it gets little action.

    The last place I walked around in, more plays were to be found on OM than others.
    Good points.

    So the more people figure the games out you keep needing dumber and dumber people to play them when they are extremely low EV to push them up into playable territory.

    So as long as we have an endless supply of dumb people and they keep getting dumber on average, then these types of games should be sustainable.

    Thank you, now that I look at it that way, there is no reason that these types of games should not continue to thrive well into the future!

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    Im seeing bonus machines start to get pulled from some places too and these are some of the likely reasons:

    Hustlers get cute and lock the button panel at the highest bet highest denomination hoping a ploppy will accidentally play it and create a big play. In realty most ploppies are not going to take the time to figure out how to unlock the button panel and will just move on so the machine gets no action at all and gets pulled.

    Along the same lines on multi-denom machines hustlers often leave it on the highest denom after they check it (even if they dont lock the button panel) I assume for either the same reason as above or so they will know if they already checked it since people rarely play the higher denoms. The problem with this is that most ploppies are not yet familiar with mulitdenom machines so if they walk by and see a line video slot is quarters, dimes or nickels, they will move on looking for pennies (not realizing they can just change it) so again these machines get no action and get pulled.

    Hustlers also like to leave a bank of machines all on the highest bet for again I assume the same reasons and I think that also turns ploppies off. Ploppies are attracted to low minimum bets so when they walk by a bank where every machine is displaying a $6 or $7.50 bet they just move on even though a lower bet is available if they walked up to the machine and checked the button panel. So the machines get no action and they get pulled.

    Plus ploppies don’t like a steady stream of sketchy looking people walking up to the machines right next to them and slamming on each bet at full volume without playing or getting stared at by same sketchy looking people who look like the spider waiting for the fly, so they can be the first to check the machine after the ploppy leaves. This causes ploppies to cash out and go somewhere else so the machines get less action and get pulled.

    Another trend Im seeing recently is on the IGT games with a 10 spin cycle, some hustlers will take one spin on every bet, every denomination (no advantage by the way) trying to load up a bunch of wilds on the first spin in which case they will play it off, but if they brick they will leave it at spin 1. As the ploppies get more familiar with these games, they come to play one but every bet & every denom is already starting at spin 1 (a dead spin) instead of spin zero like it should, they get turned off and dont play, the machines get no action and get pulled.

    Also the previously mentioned bonus hustlers that are not discrete and like to stand up and blast through each bet at full volume create new bonus hustlers as the ploppies see them and figure out what they are doing. One reason you find less plays now is that a lot of ploppies when they first sit down at one of these games will habitually check every bet before settling in to play having seen indiscrete hustlers do this.

    Too bad that so many hustlers don’t take a long view or these machines and plays would last longer.
    1. Locking buttons on big bets is a scam. This happened on Golden Egypt, Scarab, etc. I don’t believe in people deliberately hurting innocent people so they can make an extra buck. I unlock those high bets when I see them.

    Locked buttons is also a way of marking machines. If you know the buttons are still locked to your specific bet amounts, then you don’t need to check the machines with the assumption is no one played them.

    I teach people to mark machines without using the lock bet button. Usually, I leave it on the $1.50 bet when the choices are $0.75, $1.50, $2.25, $3.00 & $3.75. Or if it’s a matrix of 5 X 5, I leave it at a certain combination. It lets me and my network know the machine’s been checked. I have a good memory so I know the cash out amount and that helps me minimize the need to check machines.

    2. Max bet means the machines has been checked. Most bonus hustlers OUT OF HABIT start with lowest bet and work their way to the top bet (because they were b*tt poor when they started in the business and the habit stuck with them). So it’s not uncommon to see a bank of bonus machines at it’s highest best or highest denominations if multi-denom. I never leave the machines at the Max bet to see who the bonus hustlers are or how many.

    A lot of the times, you just follow their ticket and you find out who they are. Or, you might see the same or similar ticket amount in a bank of machines.

    The deep pocket hustlers start in reverse with biggest bets / highest denominations and work to the smallest.

    3. One or two spins on Scarabs or 10-game cycle. This makes sense in Reno in certain casinos with loose slots. It’s an option and those 10 games is akin to a Markov Chain. It cost you very little to see how well your game can turn out. It also discourages other bonus hustlers since people are less likely to play with fewer games remaining.

    It’s the same thing with Ocean Magic & OM Grand to catch a streak. You see hustlers throw a few dollars to see the next 5 or 6 spins to catch bubbles. In Ocean Magic, the game is not as random as slots since bubbles do come in patterns and streaks.

    4. The problem is the hustlers being too aggressive in that they themselves kill the game by milking every opportunity so the game fails to attract new players. In Peppermill & Atlantis, machines were being checked every 5 minutes and the casinos got tired of this sh*t behavior.

    5. The game comes in different settings so don’t be surprised if the casino changed the settings to make the game harder to make money on them.

    De-contenting means casinos remove bonus machines or altering them to be less prone to bonus hustlers.

    Here is a true story: This one casino is well known for resetting their bonus machines. The word got around the Harley Davidson machines were reset so don’t play them. All night long, the bonus hustlers would not play them and one hustler who thought he was smarter than everyone jumped on the Mini at 35, which had been a good number. All night long, I’m getting texts about how high the free games were: in the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s ... we were laughing our b*tts off ... 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, 100’s ... the laughter turned into downright sorrow for the moron who didn’t get the memo ... it finally hit in the 140’s. Everyone hated that a-ho so we celebrated when he lost a sh*tload of money. Schadenfreude at it’s finest moment.

    I was so happy that I retired a few years ago. It’s a different crowd now than when I first got started. These young kids don’t have manners or understand the word “discretion”. The word that best describes these youngsters is: Entitlement!

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    Im seeing bonus machines start to get pulled from some places too and these are some of the likely reasons:

    Hustlers get cute and lock the button panel at the highest bet highest denomination hoping a ploppy will accidentally play it and create a big play. In realty most ploppies are not going to take the time to figure out how to unlock the button panel and will just move on so the machine gets no action at all and gets pulled.

    Along the same lines on multi-denom machines hustlers often leave it on the highest denom after they check it (even if they dont lock the button panel) I assume for either the same reason as above or so they will know if they already checked it since people rarely play the higher denoms. The problem with this is that most ploppies are not yet familiar with mulitdenom machines so if they walk by and see a line video slot is quarters, dimes or nickels, they will move on looking for pennies (not realizing they can just change it) so again these machines get no action and get pulled.

    Hustlers also like to leave a bank of machines all on the highest bet for again I assume the same reasons and I think that also turns ploppies off. Ploppies are attracted to low minimum bets so when they walk by a bank where every machine is displaying a $6 or $7.50 bet they just move on even though a lower bet is available if they walked up to the machine and checked the button panel. So the machines get no action and they get pulled.

    Plus ploppies donít like a steady stream of sketchy looking people walking up to the machines right next to them and slamming on each bet at full volume without playing or getting stared at by same sketchy looking people who look like the spider waiting for the fly, so they can be the first to check the machine after the ploppy leaves. This causes ploppies to cash out and go somewhere else so the machines get less action and get pulled.

    Another trend Im seeing recently is on the IGT games with a 10 spin cycle, some hustlers will take one spin on every bet, every denomination (no advantage by the way) trying to load up a bunch of wilds on the first spin in which case they will play it off, but if they brick they will leave it at spin 1. As the ploppies get more familiar with these games, they come to play one but every bet & every denom is already starting at spin 1 (a dead spin) instead of spin zero like it should, they get turned off and dont play, the machines get no action and get pulled.

    Also the previously mentioned bonus hustlers that are not discrete and like to stand up and blast through each bet at full volume create new bonus hustlers as the ploppies see them and figure out what they are doing. One reason you find less plays now is that a lot of ploppies when they first sit down at one of these games will habitually check every bet before settling in to play having seen indiscrete hustlers do this.

    Too bad that so many hustlers donít take a long view or these machines and plays would last longer.
    1. Locking buttons on big bets is a scam. This happened on Golden Egypt, Scarab, etc. I donít believe in people deliberately hurting innocent people so they can make an extra buck. I unlock those high bets when I see them.

    Locked buttons is also a way of marking machines. If you know the buttons are still locked to your specific bet amounts, then you donít need to check the machines with the assumption is no one played them.

    I teach people to mark machines without using the lock bet button. Usually, I leave it on the $1.50 bet when the choices are $0.75, $1.50, $2.25, $3.00 & $3.75. Or if itís a matrix of 5 X 5, I leave it at a certain combination. It lets me and my network know the machineís been checked. I have a good memory so I know the cash out amount and that helps me minimize the need to check machines.

    2. Max bet means the machines has been checked. Most bonus hustlers OUT OF HABIT start with lowest bet and work their way to the top bet (because they were b*tt poor when they started in the business and the habit stuck with them). So itís not uncommon to see a bank of bonus machines at itís highest best or highest denominations if multi-denom. I never leave the machines at the Max bet to see who the bonus hustlers are or how many.

    A lot of the times, you just follow their ticket and you find out who they are. Or, you might see the same or similar ticket amount in a bank of machines.

    The deep pocket hustlers start in reverse with biggest bets / highest denominations and work to the smallest.

    3. One or two spins on Scarabs or 10-game cycle. This makes sense in Reno in certain casinos with loose slots. Itís an option and those 10 games is akin to a Markov Chain. It cost you very little to see how well your game can turn out. It also discourages other bonus hustlers since people are less likely to play with fewer games remaining.

    Itís the same thing with Ocean Magic & OM Grand to catch a streak. You see hustlers throw a few dollars to see the next 5 or 6 spins to catch bubbles. In Ocean Magic, the game is not as random as slots since bubbles do come in patterns and streaks.

    4. The problem is the hustlers being too aggressive in that they themselves kill the game by milking every opportunity so the game fails to attract new players. In Peppermill & Atlantis, machines were being checked every 5 minutes and the casinos got tired of this sh*t behavior.

    5. The game comes in different settings so donít be surprised if the casino changed the settings to make the game harder to make money on them.

    De-contenting means casinos remove bonus machines or altering them to be less prone to bonus hustlers.

    Here is a true story: This one casino is well known for resetting their bonus machines. The word got around the Harley Davidson machines were reset so donít play them. All night long, the bonus hustlers would not play them and one hustler who thought he was smarter than everyone jumped on the Mini at 35, which had been a good number. All night long, Iím getting texts about how high the free games were: in the 40ís, 50ís, 60ís ... we were laughing our b*tts off ... 70ís, 80ís, 90ís, 100ís ... the laughter turned into downright sorrow for the moron who didnít get the memo ... it finally hit in the 140ís. Everyone hated that a-ho so we celebrated when he lost a sh*tload of money. Schadenfreude at itís finest moment.

    I was so happy that I retired a few years ago. Itís a different crowd now than when I first got started. These young kids donít have manners or understand the word ďdiscretionĒ. The word that best describes these youngsters is: Entitlement!
    You are so right about the starting w the lower bet for new / broke hustlers and starting w the higher bet for deep pocketed hustlers. I had never even thought about that but that gave me a laugh because I realized I did that when I started. I almost didnít want to see a play on a big bet because if it went bad it could put me in the hole for the night.

    As I got more confident and had more $ Iíd start w the big bets looking for the juicy stuff and be disappointed when there was a good play on the small bet but not on the big bet.

    As for looking at ticket amounts there is this one guy who is a huge A$$ho&e that always pays close attention to other peoples ticket amounts. What I started doing whenever he was also in a joint that I was working is I would put my big ticket in my wallet and just put a fresh $20 or small ticket in any machine I was checking. It was a bit of a hassle, but it gave me great pleasure knowing it created more work for him to have to check each bet again on machines that I already picked clean.

    If he happened to see me working a bank I knew that as soon as I left he would look to see what I cashed out at so in that case I would throw my big ticket back in and if I could get away with it without him seeing, I would also try to insert an extra $1000-$2000 on top of the big ticket to try to tilt him thinking I was having a monster night!

    Ah, what a crazy business this is!

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    You are so right about the starting w the lower bet for new / broke hustlers and starting w the higher bet for deep pocketed hustlers. I had never even thought about that but that gave me a laugh because I realized I did that when I started. I almost didn’t want to see a play on a big bet because if it went bad it could put me in the hole for the night.

    As I got more confident and had more $ I’d start w the big bets looking for the juicy stuff and be disappointed when there was a good play on the small bet but not on the big bet.

    As for looking at ticket amounts there is this one guy who is a huge A$$ho&e that always pays close attention to other peoples ticket amounts. What I started doing whenever he was also in a joint that I was working is I would put my big ticket in my wallet and just put a fresh $20 or small ticket in any machine I was checking. It was a bit of a hassle, but it gave me great pleasure knowing it created more work for him to have to check each bet again on machines that I already picked clean.

    If he happened to see me working a bank I knew that as soon as I left he would look to see what I cashed out at so in that case I would throw my big ticket back in and if I could get away with it without him seeing, I would also try to insert an extra $1000-$2000 on top of the big ticket to try to tilt him thinking I was having a monster night!

    Ah, what a crazy business this is!
    That is a good story about the big ticket.

    Here are few things to know: most casinos cannot track the ticket, they have to use surveillance to track you at a machine. But we hustlers can track the tickets because they are being played on (solely) bonus machines.

    I used to keep 1 ticket for ease of accounting: last ticket minus starting capital = profit or loss (there were times I had to reach in my big bankroll to play $2.50+ a spin for over 1,000+ spins where you could lose $400 to $600). 95% of the time, I never had to reach in for more money.

    Then people started tracking me to see what games I would play... I was inadvertently teaching them the new games. I kept a spare $1 ticket to clear my “footprint” but that was a hassle so I now cash out and start over once I hit a certain amount.

    I also use the big ticket as a psychological tool especially after a competing hustler lost money on marginal plays. I’ll walk up and insert my ticket and the a-ho blows up seeing how my ticket is way bigger than his and how my ticket has been going up all night long. I have also been guilty of adding benji’s throughout the night to fatten my ticket.

    This is partly when I retired ... people shared the machines, and then it became teams would camp and vulture this blocking out the competition and then security had to get involved (because they won’t share). There is going to be competition but don’t be an a-ho because you can’t stand the competition or that some people are smarter than you or have more money than you.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    You are so right about the starting w the lower bet for new / broke hustlers and starting w the higher bet for deep pocketed hustlers. I had never even thought about that but that gave me a laugh because I realized I did that when I started. I almost didn’t want to see a play on a big bet because if it went bad it could put me in the hole for the night.

    As I got more confident and had more $ I’d start w the big bets looking for the juicy stuff and be disappointed when there was a good play on the small bet but not on the big bet.

    As for looking at ticket amounts there is this one guy who is a huge A$$ho&e that always pays close attention to other peoples ticket amounts. What I started doing whenever he was also in a joint that I was working is I would put my big ticket in my wallet and just put a fresh $20 or small ticket in any machine I was checking. It was a bit of a hassle, but it gave me great pleasure knowing it created more work for him to have to check each bet again on machines that I already picked clean.

    If he happened to see me working a bank I knew that as soon as I left he would look to see what I cashed out at so in that case I would throw my big ticket back in and if I could get away with it without him seeing, I would also try to insert an extra $1000-$2000 on top of the big ticket to try to tilt him thinking I was having a monster night!

    Ah, what a crazy business this is!
    That is a good story about the big ticket.

    Here are few things to know: most casinos cannot track the ticket, they have to use surveillance to track you at a machine. But we hustlers can track the tickets because they are being played on (solely) bonus machines.

    I used to keep 1 ticket for ease of accounting: last ticket minus starting capital = profit or loss (there were times I had to reach in my big bankroll to play $2.50+ a spin for over 1,000+ spins where you could lose $400 to $600). 95% of the time, I never had to reach in for more money.

    Then people started tracking me to see what games I would play... I was inadvertently teaching them the new games. I kept a spare $1 ticket to clear my “footprint” but that was a hassle so I now cash out and start over once I hit a certain amount.

    I also use the big ticket as a psychological tool especially after a competing hustler lost money on marginal plays. I’ll walk up and insert my ticket and the a-ho blows up seeing how my ticket is way bigger than his and how my ticket has been going up all night long. I have also been guilty of adding benji’s throughout the night to fatten my ticket.

    This is partly when I retired ... people shared the machines, and then it became teams would camp and vulture this blocking out the competition and then security had to get involved (because they won’t share). There is going to be competition but don’t be an a-ho because you can’t stand the competition or that some people are smarter than you or have more money than you.
    Yes, following people to learn, that is partly how I first learned. Now if I know a juicy machine that few if any other people know I actually look around to see if anyone is following me before I play it.

    I am still fairly new to this but have actually been surprised how few Aholes there are. Ive actually made some good friends doing this and have found there are generally:

    - friendly hustlers

    - hustlers that keep to themselves but are respectful (ie not check a bank when they see you are already working it)

    -clueless hustlers, the ones that bang on all the bets at full volume right next to you, not because they are Aholes but because they just don’t know any better.

    -and the occasional Ahole.

    But man Ill tell you, when you meet that occasional Ahole, they are really big Aholes!

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    You are so right about the starting w the lower bet for new / broke hustlers and starting w the higher bet for deep pocketed hustlers. I had never even thought about that but that gave me a laugh because I realized I did that when I started. I almost didnít want to see a play on a big bet because if it went bad it could put me in the hole for the night.

    As I got more confident and had more $ Iíd start w the big bets looking for the juicy stuff and be disappointed when there was a good play on the small bet but not on the big bet.

    As for looking at ticket amounts there is this one guy who is a huge A$$ho&e that always pays close attention to other peoples ticket amounts. What I started doing whenever he was also in a joint that I was working is I would put my big ticket in my wallet and just put a fresh $20 or small ticket in any machine I was checking. It was a bit of a hassle, but it gave me great pleasure knowing it created more work for him to have to check each bet again on machines that I already picked clean.

    If he happened to see me working a bank I knew that as soon as I left he would look to see what I cashed out at so in that case I would throw my big ticket back in and if I could get away with it without him seeing, I would also try to insert an extra $1000-$2000 on top of the big ticket to try to tilt him thinking I was having a monster night!

    Ah, what a crazy business this is!
    That is a good story about the big ticket.

    Here are few things to know: most casinos cannot track the ticket, they have to use surveillance to track you at a machine. But we hustlers can track the tickets because they are being played on (solely) bonus machines.

    I used to keep 1 ticket for ease of accounting: last ticket minus starting capital = profit or loss (there were times I had to reach in my big bankroll to play $2.50+ a spin for over 1,000+ spins where you could lose $400 to $600). 95% of the time, I never had to reach in for more money.

    Then people started tracking me to see what games I would play... I was inadvertently teaching them the new games. I kept a spare $1 ticket to clear my ďfootprintĒ but that was a hassle so I now cash out and start over once I hit a certain amount.

    I also use the big ticket as a psychological tool especially after a competing hustler lost money on marginal plays. Iíll walk up and insert my ticket and the a-ho blows up seeing how my ticket is way bigger than his and how my ticket has been going up all night long. I have also been guilty of adding benjiís throughout the night to fatten my ticket.

    This is partly when I retired ... people shared the machines, and then it became teams would camp and vulture this blocking out the competition and then security had to get involved (because they wonít share). There is going to be competition but donít be an a-ho because you canít stand the competition or that some people are smarter than you or have more money than you.
    Yes, following people to learn, that is partly how I first learned. Now if I know a juicy machine that few if any other people know I actually look around to see if anyone is following me before I play it.

    I am still fairly new to this but have actually been surprised how few Aholes there are. Ive actually made some good friends doing this and have found there are generally:

    - friendly hustlers

    - hustlers that keep to themselves but are respectful (ie not check a bank when they see you are already working it)

    -clueless hustlers, the ones that bang on all the bets at full volume right next to you, not because they are Aholes but because they just donít know any better.

    -and the occasional Ahole.

    But man Ill tell you, when you meet that occasional Ahole, they are really big Aholes!

  10. #10
    Interesting story about the hustler using the lock button to keep the machine on a higher denomination, hoping the ploppies won't notice and will just spin it into +EV territory.

    I wonder how well that works.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Interesting story about the hustler using the lock button to keep the machine on a higher denomination, hoping the ploppies won't notice and will just spin it into +EV territory.

    I wonder how well that works.
    The Golden Egypts were the main game they did this on. I don't recall ever finding a play at max bet where it was locked on that bet level. So not very effective, in my opinion.
    Coach Smelly Belly is a government employee. He's overpaid with to many benefits. He sucks money from the private sector.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    Im seeing bonus machines start to get pulled from some places too and these are some of the likely reasons:

    Hustlers get cute and lock the button panel at the highest bet highest denomination hoping a ploppy will accidentally play it and create a big play. In realty most ploppies are not going to take the time to figure out how to unlock the button panel and will just move on so the machine gets no action at all and gets pulled.

    Along the same lines on multi-denom machines hustlers often leave it on the highest denom after they check it (even if they dont lock the button panel) I assume for either the same reason as above or so they will know if they already checked it since people rarely play the higher denoms. The problem with this is that most ploppies are not yet familiar with mulitdenom machines so if they walk by and see a line video slot is quarters, dimes or nickels, they will move on looking for pennies (not realizing they can just change it) so again these machines get no action and get pulled.

    Hustlers also like to leave a bank of machines all on the highest bet for again I assume the same reasons and I think that also turns ploppies off. Ploppies are attracted to low minimum bets so when they walk by a bank where every machine is displaying a $6 or $7.50 bet they just move on even though a lower bet is available if they walked up to the machine and checked the button panel. So the machines get no action and they get pulled.

    Plus ploppies donít like a steady stream of sketchy looking people walking up to the machines right next to them and slamming on each bet at full volume without playing or getting stared at by same sketchy looking people who look like the spider waiting for the fly, so they can be the first to check the machine after the ploppy leaves. This causes ploppies to cash out and go somewhere else so the machines get less action and get pulled.

    Another trend Im seeing recently is on the IGT games with a 10 spin cycle, some hustlers will take one spin on every bet, every denomination (no advantage by the way) trying to load up a bunch of wilds on the first spin in which case they will play it off, but if they brick they will leave it at spin 1. As the ploppies get more familiar with these games, they come to play one but every bet & every denom is already starting at spin 1 (a dead spin) instead of spin zero like it should, they get turned off and dont play, the machines get no action and get pulled.

    Also the previously mentioned bonus hustlers that are not discrete and like to stand up and blast through each bet at full volume create new bonus hustlers as the ploppies see them and figure out what they are doing. One reason you find less plays now is that a lot of ploppies when they first sit down at one of these games will habitually check every bet before settling in to play having seen indiscrete hustlers do this.

    Too bad that so many hustlers donít take a long view or these machines and plays would last longer.
    1. Locking buttons on big bets is a scam. This happened on Golden Egypt, Scarab, etc. I donít believe in people deliberately hurting innocent people so they can make an extra buck. I unlock those high bets when I see them.

    Locked buttons is also a way of marking machines. If you know the buttons are still locked to your specific bet amounts, then you donít need to check the machines with the assumption is no one played them.

    I teach people to mark machines without using the lock bet button. Usually, I leave it on the $1.50 bet when the choices are $0.75, $1.50, $2.25, $3.00 & $3.75. Or if itís a matrix of 5 X 5, I leave it at a certain combination. It lets me and my network know the machineís been checked. I have a good memory so I know the cash out amount and that helps me minimize the need to check machines.

    2. Max bet means the machines has been checked. Most bonus hustlers OUT OF HABIT start with lowest bet and work their way to the top bet (because they were b*tt poor when they started in the business and the habit stuck with them). So itís not uncommon to see a bank of bonus machines at itís highest best or highest denominations if multi-denom. I never leave the machines at the Max bet to see who the bonus hustlers are or how many.

    A lot of the times, you just follow their ticket and you find out who they are. Or, you might see the same or similar ticket amount in a bank of machines.

    The deep pocket hustlers start in reverse with biggest bets / highest denominations and work to the smallest.

    3. One or two spins on Scarabs or 10-game cycle. This makes sense in Reno in certain casinos with loose slots. Itís an option and those 10 games is akin to a Markov Chain. It cost you very little to see how well your game can turn out. It also discourages other bonus hustlers since people are less likely to play with fewer games remaining.

    Itís the same thing with Ocean Magic & OM Grand to catch a streak. You see hustlers throw a few dollars to see the next 5 or 6 spins to catch bubbles. In Ocean Magic, the game is not as random as slots since bubbles do come in patterns and streaks.

    4. The problem is the hustlers being too aggressive in that they themselves kill the game by milking every opportunity so the game fails to attract new players. In Peppermill & Atlantis, machines were being checked every 5 minutes and the casinos got tired of this sh*t behavior.

    5. The game comes in different settings so donít be surprised if the casino changed the settings to make the game harder to make money on them.

    De-contenting means casinos remove bonus machines or altering them to be less prone to bonus hustlers.

    Here is a true story: This one casino is well known for resetting their bonus machines. The word got around the Harley Davidson machines were reset so donít play them. All night long, the bonus hustlers would not play them and one hustler who thought he was smarter than everyone jumped on the Mini at 35, which had been a good number. All night long, Iím getting texts about how high the free games were: in the 40ís, 50ís, 60ís ... we were laughing our b*tts off ... 70ís, 80ís, 90ís, 100ís ... the laughter turned into downright sorrow for the moron who didnít get the memo ... it finally hit in the 140ís. Everyone hated that a-ho so we celebrated when he lost a sh*tload of money. Schadenfreude at itís finest moment.

    I was so happy that I retired a few years ago. Itís a different crowd now than when I first got started. These young kids donít have manners or understand the word ďdiscretionĒ. The word that best describes these youngsters is: Entitlement!
    The story about the Harley's might be true but has nothing to do with why the mini ran to 140. And I never seen a bank of harley's where a mini at 35 was a good play unless the maxi was over 30.
    Coach Smelly Belly is a government employee. He's overpaid with to many benefits. He sucks money from the private sector.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    The story about the Harley's might be true but has nothing to do with why the mini ran to 140. And I never seen a bank of harley's where a mini at 35 was a good play unless the maxi was over 30.
    1. The game got changed. The cycle times were altered.

    2. Anytime a casino changes the chip, it could hit non-stop or it could not hit at all.

    The 140+ Mini was a combination of both longer cycle times and bad pRNG. I know the guy who witnessed it and sending me the texts. He is a smart & solid player.

    Btw, when the Harleyís first came out the Mini at 35 was a play. Anything over 32 on the Mini were being taken down by Ploppies or Hustlers. You rarely see anything 35 or up as someone was willing to play at a lower number.

    This casino also changed Crazy Money II which used to have a 55-spin cycle for the bonus round and that changed to 70-spin cycle and destroyed the play. It also nerfed another bonus game where you could get 2X, 3X, 4X or 5X in the free games and the $0.75, $1.00 & 1.50 were changed where now 95% of the time it was 2X when getting 5X was pretty common before the change.

    People donít know the slot machine comes in different versions so the casino can downgrade the version anytime without the players knowing.

    Also, Golden Egypt went through many versions as well: first version landed with one coin in each column in each game; the last version had one coin in the third column. I remembered noticing how coin drop rates in the first two columns got changed. Games change. The latter versions donít play as well.
    Last edited by Ex-AP; 01-22-2020 at 03:47 PM.

  14. #14
    A few more comments.

    - Anyone can check the machine. Even the Ploppies check them. It’s not our machines or our casinos.

    - Not all hustlers play the same: some are tight, some are loose & aggressive, some are looking for marginal plays to get coin in’s for mailers or more comps or both

    - Not all bonus machines are the same: some are more valuable for camouflage purposes like Scarab, Joe Blow, etc

    - You will get a-ho’s that try to intimidate you; some will rat you out to the casinos (it sucks when it happens but you just have to deal with it); some will doxx you (happened to me twice and I didn’t know what doxxing was until someone explained it to me); some will collude and lie to casino that you harass them (which is STUPID since we are being filmed), etc

    - You will get teams that camp and vulture so you can’t check certain banks of the better games. Some casinos have no camping rules and some casinos don’t. In one particular casino, you can’t lock up a machine, e.g. turn the seat around and throw a jacket on the seat. In Reno, it’s okay if a team locks up a bank of a progressive RF, but that doesn’t work in this casino.

    - From my experience, the younger Hustlers or new Hustlers are quick to pick a fight because they were not making money or are more territorial and won’t share. I get yelled at regularly. I had some physically push me of a machine or cut me off and steal my play.

    - The really bad hustlers are the ones that check 3 machines at once, or go through a bank of 5+ machines super fast, etc

    - Some hustlers don’t like you watching them (but it’s okay when they watch you so they can learn)

    - Some take it personally if you are better than them and that’s why they don’t make money.

    Every casino has it’s own rules. At Thunder Valley, if you check machines and don’t play, you get on a list and the eye in the sky watches you and that is how you get kicked out. At another casino, they track your winnings and what machines you played and once you made over a certain threshold, you get the tap on the shoulder. A lot of this stuff is very secretive and not shared.

    These Reno hustler refugees are going to find out the hard way, the casinos in North California ain’t Reno and many casinos won’t put up with their behavior.

    Lastly, if you want to network, proceed with caution. Backstabbing is the norm here.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Interesting story about the hustler using the lock button to keep the machine on a higher denomination, hoping the ploppies won't notice and will just spin it into +EV territory.

    I wonder how well that works.
    The Golden Egypts were the main game they did this on. I don't recall ever finding a play at max bet where it was locked on that bet level. So not very effective, in my opinion.
    This has been exactly my experience too, never seen a play on a maxed locked bet. I think it is newer and / or clueless hustlers that do this because all it does is kill the action on a bank. Smart Hustlers want a bank to get lots of action to create plays.

    As an aside, the button panel can obviously be unlocked by simply tapping ď unlock panel button ď but ploppies are oblivious and have tunnel vision (which is why they leave behind plays in the first place) so they just move on to a different machine if it is locked on max bet.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    The story about the Harley's might be true but has nothing to do with why the mini ran to 140. And I never seen a bank of harley's where a mini at 35 was a good play unless the maxi was over 30.
    1. The game got changed. The cycle times were altered.

    2. Anytime a casino changes the chip, it could hit non-stop or it could not hit at all.

    The 140+ Mini was a combination of both longer cycle times and bad pRNG. I know the guy who witnessed it and sending me the texts. He is a smart & solid player.

    Btw, when the Harley’s first came out the Mini at 35 was a play. Anything over 32 on the Mini were being taken down by Ploppies or Hustlers. You rarely see anything 35 or up as someone was willing to play at a lower number.

    This casino also changed Crazy Money II which used to have a 55-spin cycle for the bonus round and that changed to 70-spin cycle and destroyed the play. It also nerfed another bonus game where you could get 2X, 3X, 4X or 5X in the free games and the $0.75, $1.00 & 1.50 were changed where now 95% of the time it was 2X when getting 5X was pretty common before the change.

    People don’t know the slot machine comes in different versions so the casino can downgrade the version anytime without the players knowing.

    Also, Golden Egypt went through many versions as well: first version landed with one coin in each column in each game; the last version had one coin in the third column. I remembered noticing how coin drop rates in the first two columns got changed. Games change. The latter versions don’t play as well.
    Very interesting. Ive heard people discuss this before about how a new game is juicy and later drys up and debate whether the game was changed or it was just due to variance.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    Very interesting. Ive heard people discuss this before about how a new game is juicy and later drys up and debate whether the game was changed or it was just due to variance.
    We have a guy who travels; he is not a statistician but studied stats in grad school for data analysis skills. If you ask him the number for a game, he will tell you. He is not a Bonus Hustler but plays them and best part is he cracks the game: bonus rounds, RTP’s, meter movements, and when there are ways to exploit game design defects, e.g. game wasn’t designed correctly. He lets us know which machines are new and how to beat them, the level of competition, etc.

    He has benchmarked numerous games so he knew when the Harley’s were changed, e.g. increased frequency of the bonus symbol in column 3 thus makes game harder to win (since there are less winning combinations). In Wheel of Fortune 4D, the Scatter symbol appearing in Column 2 frequently kills the game and devalues the banked “$” that turns wild. Really anal-retentive stuff that almost no one pays attention to.

    I will share Joe Blow since I did some work independent of what he did. We trade notes from time to time. There were 4 versions of Joe Blow in North Cali market. The loosest one is gone. In this version, any 6 firecrackers (or dynamites) was a play since firecrackers awarded were decidedly non-linear, e.g. your chances at next firecracker was based on existing number of firecrackers. The more firecrackers you saw the better. But this version is gone.

    The next version had a visual: if two or more “reels” showed 3 firecrackers spinning by, you had a 95%+ chance of being awarded 3 firecrackers in at least one “reel”.

    The worst version had a RTP in the 85% range and was very hard to beat using stand rules.

    What is left is the 3rd version in most casinos and is pretty easy to make money on if you know what you are doing.

    These bonus machines come in different settings so it’s important to know which version is which.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    The story about the Harley's might be true but has nothing to do with why the mini ran to 140. And I never seen a bank of harley's where a mini at 35 was a good play unless the maxi was over 30.
    1. The game got changed. The cycle times were altered.

    2. Anytime a casino changes the chip, it could hit non-stop or it could not hit at all.

    The 140+ Mini was a combination of both longer cycle times and bad pRNG. I know the guy who witnessed it and sending me the texts. He is a smart & solid player.

    Btw, when the Harley’s first came out the Mini at 35 was a play. Anything over 32 on the Mini were being taken down by Ploppies or Hustlers. You rarely see anything 35 or up as someone was willing to play at a lower number.

    This casino also changed Crazy Money II which used to have a 55-spin cycle for the bonus round and that changed to 70-spin cycle and destroyed the play. It also nerfed another bonus game where you could get 2X, 3X, 4X or 5X in the free games and the $0.75, $1.00 & 1.50 were changed where now 95% of the time it was 2X when getting 5X was pretty common before the change.

    People don’t know the slot machine comes in different versions so the casino can downgrade the version anytime without the players knowing.

    Also, Golden Egypt went through many versions as well: first version landed with one coin in each column in each game; the last version had one coin in the third column. I remembered noticing how coin drop rates in the first two columns got changed. Games change. The latter versions don’t play as well.
    Have you ever read Nevada law about changing the RTP on a slot game?
    Coach Smelly Belly is a government employee. He's overpaid with to many benefits. He sucks money from the private sector.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Have you ever read Nevada law about changing the RTP on a slot game?
    1. A long, long time ago I saw a casino on the East Coast change the chip and a Regulator was there watching the process.

    2. Games are now on “servers” in NV is what I was led to believe.

    3. I am talking about Indian casinos who can do the hell they want. Heck, we aren’t in USA anymore when enter their “sovereign” land.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Have you ever read Nevada law about changing the RTP on a slot game?
    1. A long, long time ago I saw a casino on the East Coast change the chip and a Regulator was there watching the process.

    2. Games are now on “servers” in NV is what I was led to believe.

    3. I am talking about Indian casinos who can do the hell they want. Heck, we aren’t in USA anymore when enter their “sovereign” land.
    Here is an article from 2006 about slots being on servers.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/t...achine-in.html

    “ In the past, changing out a slot machine was a complicated operation and entailed opening it, replacing the computer chip inside, then changing the glass display that markets the game's theme. The alteration usually took a day and could cost thousands of dollars, from ordering parts to modifying the machine.

    "Now, I just come to my office, and select the program," said Mr. Beltram, the 28-year-old executive director for slots at Treasure Island, which is owned by the MGM Mirage. "With the technology, it takes 20 seconds."

    That was 2006, almost 14 years ago.

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