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Thread: Tweet about IGT’s Zodiac Lions

  1. #1
    https://mobile.twitter.com/APkid7/st...87125560233984

    Game plays like Star Goddess and thus is like Ocean Magic. I played it in Reno in October and game was a stand alone in GSR but part of a multi-game unit in Atlantis.

    The equity is “cells” (these cells have a special border) that turns wild that Ploppies leave behind. The game does not use Scarab’s cells turn wild by 10th spin game structure.

    Like Star Goddess, a symbol will hit a the “cell with special border” turning those cells wild.

    In Star Goddess you can get multiple “fire balls” so up to multiple chances in a spin to turn those cells wild. But 3-line winners pay very little and it uses only 26 winning pay-lines(?). Ocean Magic had 50 winning pay-lines or a cell density that averaged 2.5 (50 divided by 20 cells). Ocean Magic Grand had 30 cells but only 38 winning pay-lines so cell density was a 1.31 (38 / 30). And in Star Goddess, when a cell turns wild it plays like Ocean Magic by making adjacent cells turn wild; I don’t recall the expanding wild feature in Zodiac Lions.

    In Zodiac Lions, it does not use a standard rectangular grid; it uses a hexagonal structure. I wasn’t going to use hexagonal math so I never analyzed the game.

    Like Star Goddess, the top row of wagers in Zodiac Lions did not keep these cells with boarders ... only the bottom row of wagers.

    However, Star Goddess came with out with an anti-Scavenging feature that I thought was pretty neat and allowed me to make a ton of money until other scavengers figured it out.

  2. #2
    38 / 30 is cell density for OMG so it should be 1.27 rounded.

    The prior 1.31 number was a typo.

    And you wonder why Scavenger’s make less (based feedback I’ve received) on OMG vs OM. You pay a price for the “super bubble” in OMG.

  3. #3
    Besides “cell density”, we also use a term call line density (other scavengers may have their own argot).

    In Golden Egypt & Scarab, it was 75 paylines and 20 cells (5 columns & 4 rows).

    So line density was 75 / 20 or 3.75 (on average, 3.75 lines went through a cell). However, you had to calculate the individual payline to see which cells were the most valuable since wins are paid from leftmost for rightmost cells that connect, respectively.

    Star Goddess was I think 26 paylines so the line density sucked (plus 3-line winners sucked) so I suspect the game designers went with exploding wilds mechanisms like Ocean Magic which made middle six cells as the only ones that exploded to a 3x3 grid.

    Tracker had a theory about how Star Goddess was put together since he is into game design and how the base game sucked so Star Goddess added random Minor & Major jackpots.

    But I digress and ramble.

  4. #4
    And one more thing to p*ss off Scavengers who like to advertise themselves like AP’s on Tweeter:

    https://www.casi-know.com/slots/1190

    A card counter can be an AP by playing a casino game that is negative OFF THE TOP. A scavenger is someone who has to wait for someone to leave him or her value (aka “equity”). It’s kind of like calling (homeless) can & bottle scavengers “AP’s” for all the “equity” left in trash cans, dumpsters, etc.

    This is public domain information. So you wonder why these “scavengers” can find the info on the web?

    And for the record, I am not an AP but I know AP’s. I am a Scavenger and not ashamed of being called a Scavenger. I don’t “vulture” as a general rule. Btw, scavenging and vulturing are two different concepts but are related.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    And one more thing to p*ss off Scavengers who like to advertise themselves like AP’s on Tweeter:

    https://www.casi-know.com/slots/1190

    A card counter can be an AP by playing a casino game that is negative OFF THE TOP. A scavenger is someone who has to wait for someone to leave him or her value (aka “equity”). It’s kind of like calling (homeless) can & bottle scavengers “AP’s” for all the “equity” left in trash cans, dumpsters, etc.

    This is public domain information. So you wonder why these “scavengers” can find the info on the web?

    And for the record, I am not an AP but I know AP’s. I am a Scavenger and not ashamed of being called a Scavenger. I don’t “vulture” as a general rule. Btw, scavenging and vulturing are two different concepts but are related.
    Video poker AP's wait until a progressive is in positive territory before playing. So according to your logic there are no video poker AP's either.

    As a matter of fact, according to your logic, you can only be a video poker AP if you play both positive AND negative situations. And sports bettors? They only want to bet positive situations. So much for being an AP there. According to your logic there just ain't any AP's around.
    "Since this is an era in which many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" black conservative Thomas Sowell

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Video poker AP's wait until a progressive is in positive territory before playing. So according to your logic there are no video poker AP's either.

    As a matter of fact, according to your logic, you can only be a video poker AP if you play both positive AND negative situations. And sports bettors? They only want to bet positive situations. So much for being an AP there. According to your logic there just ain't any AP's around.
    1. I will summarize my key points. A homeless person digging through trash for deposits is a scavenger and those deposits are “equity”, e.g. some form of value. (Some of the stuff picked up may not have a CRV in the case of California meaning not everything a homeless person pick up has value). The key point is scavenging for value. I scavenge bonus slots for value myself. I am bonus slot scavenger in a casino, which is no different than a homeless person scavenging for deposits in trash. That act alone does not make the homeless person or myself an AP.

    2. On an apple to apples comparison, e.g. ceteris paribus (something the resident village idiot doesn’t get), we can compare a card counter at a traditional BJ vs a progressive VP player. No comps, no free play, no mailers, no promotions, etc. All the value is derived from the game.

    The BJ player who is a card counter is an AP for facing a game that is negative off the top. (We will exclude BJ players who are scavengers, e.g. wonging positive counts via table hopping, etc). I am talking about the “play-all” card counter. This card counter makes money based on math by betting more in positive counts.

    Other BJ players use hole carding or shuffle tracking during a play-all situation to make money. Basically, due to a skill, these BJ players make consistent money while play-all in a game that is negative off the top. Again, these people are AP’s for making money playing a game that is negative off the top.

    In the case of progressive video poker, the Ploppies or others have to build the progressive jackpot(s) high enough to turn a negative VP game off the top INTO A PLUS EV situation. These VP players are scavengers meaning they have to wait for the opportunity to manifest itself. My point is you don’t see progressive VP players playing a decidedly negative VP game off the top to move it INTO PLUS EV territory and then try to increase their bets (can’t be done due to fixed bet amounts).

    2. Once you release the apples to apples comparisons, like cash back, mailers, etc the definition of an AP gets more expansive. But if you are making all of your money from scavenging equity in bonus slots because you require others to leave equity for you (like a homeless person looking through trash) then you are an scavenger, not an AP.

    I know lots of known video poker players who play negative EV games but make it up somewhere else. “A” is a perfect example of playing 99%+ VP games and making over 6 figures a year due to the value somewhere else. “A” is NOT scavenging equity left by others; “A” is creating equity due to skill, e.g. playing a negative game off the top (like a BJ card counter) but gets something outside of the game (e.g. releasing the apples to apples comparison).

    3. Sports betting. Let’s ignore arbitraging multiple lines. Let’s talk about the “line”; IMO the sport maker wants to balance action on both sides of the line so if too much action is coming on one side, the sports maker will “move” the line. Take the McGregor vs Mayweather match. Dumb money was betting for McGregor so the “line” moved.

    https://www.oddsshark.com/boxing/flo...g-odds-tracker

    This is a scavenging opportunity where smart money had to waited until the day of the fight to bet on Mayweather.

    People mistakenly believe the “line” reflects the true odds of the game, match, etc. The truth is the line is to balance the action. I am not a sports bettor, but it’s very hard to make money betting $110 to win $100. If dumb money moves the line, people can scavenge off this opportunity. Something had to happen.

    And Mickey, this is your problem (the village idiot has the same problem): you don’t explain how the situation BECAME POSITIVE. Sometimes it’s a mistake, e.g. someone screwed up the math. For all the other times, SOMETHING HAD TO HAPPEN for that play to turn to PLUS EV.

    In summary, if a VP player makes all his money from progressive VP, then he is a scavenger not an AP. I have call my buddies who scavenge $100K must hit scavengers and they had no problem with that description.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Video poker AP's wait until a progressive is in positive territory before playing. So according to your logic there are no video poker AP's either.

    As a matter of fact, according to your logic, you can only be a video poker AP if you play both positive AND negative situations. And sports bettors? They only want to bet positive situations. So much for being an AP there. According to your logic there just ain't any AP's around.
    1. I will summarize my key points. A homeless person digging through trash for deposits is a scavenger and those deposits are “equity”, e.g. some form of value. (Some of the stuff picked up may not have a CRV in the case of California meaning not everything a homeless person pick up has value). The key point is scavenging for value. I scavenge bonus slots for value myself. I am bonus slot scavenger in a casino, which is no different than a homeless person scavenging for deposits in trash. That act alone does not make the homeless person or myself an AP.

    2. On an apple to apples comparison, e.g. ceteris paribus (something the resident village idiot doesn’t get), we can compare a card counter at a traditional BJ vs a progressive VP player. No comps, no free play, no mailers, no promotions, etc. All the value is derived from the game.

    The BJ player who is a card counter is an AP for facing a game that is negative off the top. (We will exclude BJ players who are scavengers, e.g. wonging positive counts via table hopping, etc). I am talking about the “play-all” card counter. This card counter makes money based on math by betting more in positive counts.

    Other BJ players use hole carding or shuffle tracking during a play-all situation to make money. Basically, due to a skill, these BJ players make consistent money while play-all in a game that is negative off the top. Again, these people are AP’s for making money playing a game that is negative off the top.

    In the case of progressive video poker, the Ploppies or others have to build the progressive jackpot(s) high enough to turn a negative VP game off the top INTO A PLUS EV situation. These VP players are scavengers meaning they have to wait for the opportunity to manifest itself. My point is you don’t see progressive VP players playing a decidedly negative VP game off the top to move it INTO PLUS EV territory and then try to increase their bets (can’t be done due to fixed bet amounts).

    2. Once you release the apples to apples comparisons, like cash back, mailers, etc the definition of an AP gets more expansive. But if you are making all of your money from scavenging equity in bonus slots because you require others to leave equity for you (like a homeless person looking through trash) then you are an scavenger, not an AP.

    I know lots of known video poker players who play negative EV games but make it up somewhere else. “A” is a perfect example of playing 99%+ VP games and making over 6 figures a year due to the value somewhere else. “A” is NOT scavenging equity left by others; “A” is creating equity due to skill, e.g. playing a negative game off the top (like a BJ card counter) but gets something outside of the game (e.g. releasing the apples to apples comparison).

    3. Sports betting. Let’s ignore arbitraging multiple lines. Let’s talk about the “line”; IMO the sport maker wants to balance action on both sides of the line so if too much action is coming on one side, the sports maker will “move” the line. Take the McGregor vs Mayweather match. Dumb money was betting for McGregor so the “line” moved.

    https://www.oddsshark.com/boxing/flo...g-odds-tracker

    This is a scavenging opportunity where smart money had to waited until the day of the fight to bet on Mayweather.

    People mistakenly believe the “line” reflects the true odds of the game, match, etc. The truth is the line is to balance the action. I am not a sports bettor, but it’s very hard to make money betting $110 to win $100. If dumb money moves the line, people can scavenge off this opportunity. Something had to happen.

    And Mickey, this is your problem (the village idiot has the same problem): you don’t explain how the situation BECAME POSITIVE. Sometimes it’s a mistake, e.g. someone screwed up the math. For all the other times, SOMETHING HAD TO HAPPEN for that play to turn to PLUS EV.

    In summary, if a VP player makes all his money from progressive VP, then he is a scavenger not an AP. I have call my buddies who scavenge $100K must hit scavengers and they had no problem with that description.
    I don't have a problem with the word scavenger. It could be that word or vulture or sea gull or whatever. I use the words vulture/vulturable/vulturables quite a bit. They pretty much mean the same thing as scavenger. But what you don't want to admit is that a vulture that reads the machines, determines they are in advantage mode and plays them off is an advantage player. The person is using their knowledge to determine if they have an advantage or not and acting accordingly. That is what AP's do. How simple the play is is irrelevant to the fact that the person is working an advantage. Whether the game fluctuates between negative and positive or not is irrelevant.

    You are not the first to make the argument that vulturing machines is not advantage play. I remember Grosjean calling card counters "not even salamanders but more like primordial ooze." The word hubris means excessive pride or self confidence. That's what I accuse those of you who say vulturing machines is not AP. Just because you have that opinion doesn't make it true.

    This is what the wiki on advantage play says:

    https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrU...eV83WJBVjmCzc-

    "....advantage play exploits innate characteristics of a particular game to give the player an advantage...."

    This is what vultures/scavengers are doing when they work the vulturable slots. They are exploiting the characteristics of the game to play at an advantage. Nothing you say will change that. Let's see if you can get the wiki definition to change.

    Now, for the moment, let's move on to hole carders. I guess you consider this bunch to be great and phenomenal AP's. Let me tell you how to be a hole carder.

    1. Go around looking for dealers that are flashing hole cards.

    2. Use James Grosjean's playing strategy for hole carding.

    Because that's all the hole carders are doing. Someone else gave them the strategy. Pretty fucking simple ain't it. That's all the hole carders are doing. Nothing fancy at all. But you think they are brain fucking surgeons. Get the fuck out. BTW, it's some of the hole carders that push the same bullshit as you about vultures/scavengers not being AP's. You're opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.

    In the way that the words are used today there is no difference between a "scavenger/vulture" and an AP. They mean one and the same.
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 02-10-2020 at 05:39 PM.
    "Since this is an era in which many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" black conservative Thomas Sowell

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post

    And Mickey, this is your problem (the village idiot has the same problem): you don’t explain how the situation BECAME POSITIVE.
    Yes who cares if a play is positive, it is far more important to explain how it became so - It is really amazing what a fucking retard you are. While you are gasbagging away about how a play came to become positive, the rest of us will go to the machine and play off the positive play. Fuck off kunt.

  9. #9
    Ploppy was playing Zodiac Lion for first time so I was explaining the game to her.

    She plays $1 and on her 6th spin, she gets bonus round. On each bonus round, the game awards additional “Lions” based on the “wheel”. She gets 22 Lions and fills the entire screen for $250 win. She ends the bonus round wining $330+ on a $1 wager. Simply unbelievable when it comes to beginner’s luck.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Ploppy was playing Zodiac Lion for first time so I was explaining the game to her.

    She plays $1 and on her 6th spin, she gets bonus round. On each bonus round, the game awards additional “Lions” based on the “wheel”. She gets 22 Lions and fills the entire screen for $250 win. She ends the bonus round wining $330+ on a $1 wager. Simply unbelievable when it comes to beginner’s luck.
    Cannot help ignorant degenerate. Not leave casino money and lose more and come more often.

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