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Thread: video poker machines not random?

  1. #21
    Originally Posted by arcimede$ View Post
    Most casinos do not have the opportunity nor the means to cheat. They do not have the capability to program slots however they want. It is that simple.
    Arc,
    When you say, "most casinos", are you generally speaking of Indian casinos? I am mostly of the opinion that VP games are totally legitimate based upon the pay table. However, given the unregulated nature (or possibility of) of Indian casinos, I am a tiny bit skeptical.

  2. #22
    If you think Indian casinos are cheating, get hard evidence/proof and show it to the feds. Don't go on an internet message board and complain. You'll get no sympathy.

  3. #23
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    It's baffling why people can never fathom that casinos do in fact alter the "randomness" of vp machines, when cruise ships, foreign casinos, and even some or many of the Indian casinos and states do it right under everyone's noses. And why do they do it? Because they can, obviously, which means higher profit margins!

    I understand why "AP's" would never want to believe in the obvious happening. Their whole world of gambling by playing vp would go on tilt and it wouldn't make sense to them. Again, it's the difference between reality and theory. Machines in NV. and elsewhere are intermittently tinkered with, that we know. It's done on a "random" and very well coordinated basis, and don't think for a minute the the NGC or any other so-called "regulatory authority" isn't indirectly involved. People who believe differently are naiive. Casino doors will never shut, collecting taxes and jobs will always supersede any supposed "morals or ethics requirements", and business reality will ALWAYS win out over theoretical beliefs.
    Rob, besides IGT, are the other companies like Bally, Spielo, Aristocrat, WMS, Aruze, Summit, in on the crime too? And how about the many other gaming commisions? You know, the ones in the other states. Are they in on the crime too? It would seem to be a vast conspiracy to defraud the public. With thousands of people involved how do you think they have been able to pull such a vast fraud on the public for 40 years without being exposed by journalists like Alan?
    Mickey, much as it pains me, I must point out that is a flawed counter-argument. Any of those same questions could be asked of the NSA, which employed thousands of people privy to the same information as Snowden. The movie overstated Snowden's exceptionalism by a large degree. All a casino would have to do to cheat is sub chips and know any inspecting body's schedule. Not that tough.
    Snowden proves my point. Sooner or later shit gets exposed. Nevada gaming doesn't call to make an appointment to check eproms. They check randomly without announcement. I've seen them in action.

  4. #24
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Rob, besides IGT, are the other companies like Bally, Spielo, Aristocrat, WMS, Aruze, Summit, in on the crime too? And how about the many other gaming commisions? You know, the ones in the other states. Are they in on the crime too? It would seem to be a vast conspiracy to defraud the public. With thousands of people involved how do you think they have been able to pull such a vast fraud on the public for 40 years without being exposed by journalists like Alan?
    Mickey, much as it pains me, I must point out that is a flawed counter-argument. Any of those same questions could be asked of the NSA, which employed thousands of people privy to the same information as Snowden. The movie overstated Snowden's exceptionalism by a large degree. All a casino would have to do to cheat is sub chips and know any inspecting body's schedule. Not that tough.
    Snowden proves my point. Sooner or later shit gets exposed. Nevada gaming doesn't call to make an appointment to check eproms. They check randomly without announcement. I've seen them in action.
    The schedule is set up months in advance. It is not "random." If they get to every machine, it's at least an 18-month rotation. It's actually much longer, and they do not get things done on schedule. This is not a secret. American Casino Guide covered this a decade ago.

    Snowden does not prove your point, by the way, but that's not the thrust of what I'm suggesting. Snowden proves the opposite.

    Arcimedes says casinos don't have the means to cheat. I'm talking about people, not some entities called "casinos."

    Look, I don't care who thinks what. I prefer everybody believe everything is wonderful, like a Disney movie.

    Old Wise Jungle Saying:

    If old dudes are telling you JR Ewing exists, you might want to consider the possibility it's not because they are guessing. Some of them may know JR Ewing.

  5. #25
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    If you think Indian casinos are cheating, get hard evidence/proof and show it to the feds. Don't go on an internet message board and complain. You'll get no sympathy.
    Jbjb,
    I'm not looking to get sympathy and I don't even think the Indian casino we frequent is cheating. I was just asking Arci if he was generalizing towards Indian rather than NV style casinos not having the capability to program/reprogram. My "tiny" bit of skepticism aside, no complaints.

  6. #26
    Originally Posted by dannyj View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    If you think Indian casinos are cheating, get hard evidence/proof and show it to the feds. Don't go on an internet message board and complain. You'll get no sympathy.
    Jbjb,
    I'm not looking to get sympathy and I don't even think the Indian casino we frequent is cheating. I was just asking Arci if he was generalizing towards Indian rather than NV style casinos not having the capability to program/reprogram. My "tiny" bit of skepticism aside, no complaints.
    My comments weren't directed at you. But they were meant to be taken seriously. Indian casinos get away with a lot of nonsense due to "sovereign immunity."

  7. #27
    Slot machines have tampering seals. If someone changes the EPROM the seal is broken and cannot be replaced. You don't have to surprise a casino. If they tamper with a machine they cannot hide it.

    As for cruise ships and other countries you take your chances although I think some cruise lines do pay for their machines to be verified by an outside agency.

  8. #28
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post

    Mickey, much as it pains me, I must point out that is a flawed counter-argument. Any of those same questions could be asked of the NSA, which employed thousands of people privy to the same information as Snowden. The movie overstated Snowden's exceptionalism by a large degree. All a casino would have to do to cheat is sub chips and know any inspecting body's schedule. Not that tough.
    Snowden proves my point. Sooner or later shit gets exposed. Nevada gaming doesn't call to make an appointment to check eproms. They check randomly without announcement. I've seen them in action.
    The schedule is set up months in advance. It is not "random." If they get to every machine, it's at least an 18-month rotation. It's actually much longer, and they do not get things done on schedule. This is not a secret. American Casino Guide covered this a decade ago.

    Snowden does not prove your point, by the way, but that's not the thrust of what I'm suggesting. Snowden proves the opposite.

    Arcimedes says casinos don't have the means to cheat. I'm talking about people, not some entities called "casinos."

    Look, I don't care who thinks what. I prefer everybody believe everything is wonderful, like a Disney movie.

    Old Wise Jungle Saying:

    If old dudes are telling you JR Ewing exists, you might want to consider the possibility it's not because they are guessing. Some of them may know JR Ewing.
    Months in advance my ass. They come in unannounced. I've witnessed it. I've been playing these "gaffed machines" for 21 years with great success. Do you think I'm going to quit because you guys say its gaffed? You guys keep drinkung the kool aid and I'll keep playing the machines.

  9. #29
    And I've been playing them with much greater success than you. No one says they're ALL "gaffed" all the time or even which ones. The only thing you're accomplishing by being a denier is further showing g your lack of a higher education, where people learn to think first before popping off about things they know little about in a way to comfort themselves.

    NGC is nothing more than a bureaucratic joke when it comes to enforcing gaming activities and policies for the public. They coexist with the casinos and machine & game manufacturers for the same purposes state governments do. And I played in high limit vp rooms overnight for over ten years, and I NEVER witnessed any of these "random checks" you claim to have seen.

  10. #30
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Snowden proves my point. Sooner or later shit gets exposed. Nevada gaming doesn't call to make an appointment to check eproms. They check randomly without announcement. I've seen them in action.
    The schedule is set up months in advance. It is not "random." If they get to every machine, it's at least an 18-month rotation. It's actually much longer, and they do not get things done on schedule. This is not a secret. American Casino Guide covered this a decade ago.

    Snowden does not prove your point, by the way, but that's not the thrust of what I'm suggesting. Snowden proves the opposite.

    Arcimedes says casinos don't have the means to cheat. I'm talking about people, not some entities called "casinos."

    Look, I don't care who thinks what. I prefer everybody believe everything is wonderful, like a Disney movie.

    Old Wise Jungle Saying:


    If old dudes are telling you JR Ewing exists, you might want to consider the possibility it's not because they are guessing. Some of them may know JR Ewing.
    Months in advance my ass. They come in unannounced. I've witnessed it. I've been playing these "gaffed machines" for 21 years with great success. Do you think I'm going to quit because you guys say its gaffed? You guys keep drinkung the kool aid and I'll keep playing the machines.

    I'm not saying they are gaffed. I don't know enough about slots to say that. I am telling you the "unannounced" schedule has holes you can drive a truck through. I suggest you reference the American Casino Guide article (in a past edition of the book) that interviewed former gaming commission personnel.

    As for non-slot cheating, yes, I have an opinion on that.

  11. #31
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    And I've been playing them with much greater success than you. No one says they're ALL "gaffed" all the time or even which ones. The only thing you're accomplishing by being a denier is further showing g your lack of a higher education, where people learn to think first before popping off about things they know little about in a way to comfort themselves.

    NGC is nothing more than a bureaucratic joke when it comes to enforcing gaming activities and policies for the public. They coexist with the casinos and machine & game manufacturers for the same purposes state governments do. And I played in high limit vp rooms overnight for over ten years, and I NEVER witnessed any of these "random checks" you claim to have seen.
    My raison d'etre is not agreeing with Rob, but realistically, the idea that no casino personnel has motive, means, and opportunity to cheat (video poker included) is absurd. Now one can argue that it's a rare event that should be ignored, or one can argue that it happens much more than anyone is willing to admit. Either position one takes, whether a poster here or a casino exec with 50 years experience, is based on incomplete information and may be wrong. However, the casino exec with 50 years Las Vegas experience is more likely to be correct, one would assume, than a poster here with no history of casino inner workings.

    The bottom line is no poster here can preclude the possibility that casino cheating is relatively frequent. That position would be based on no data (personal data, no matter how much, is an anecdotal drop in the bucket) and incomplete information. So why do people feel it is necessary to take this absurd position?

    The question answers itself. It's a Fox Mulder quote.

  12. #32
    I don't think any manufacturer that does business in Nevada would allow their games to be tampered with. Losing the right to do business in Nevada would be too costly.

    Now a question about "tampering": What are you guys talking about? Are you saying there is only 51 cards in a deck for video poker? Or are you saying royal flushes can never be hit? Or are you saying when a program says the game is 8/5 Bonus it really only pays 7/5? Please be specific.

  13. #33
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I don't think any manufacturer that does business in Nevada would allow their games to be tampered with. Losing the right to do business in Nevada would be too costly.

    Now a question about "tampering": What are you guys talking about? Are you saying there is only 51 cards in a deck for video poker? Or are you saying royal flushes can never be hit? Or are you saying when a program says the game is 8/5 Bonus it really only pays 7/5? Please be specific.
    I'm just speculating, but if I were gaffing machines, I would program high limit machines to hit fewer royals on a rotating basis, maybe in conjunction with invitational promos to high rollers. No single player could possibly make a case for there "not being enough royals" as no single player could accrue enough hands to get a sense of it, much less make a statistical case for it. Variance would protect the endeavor. When the promos were finished, I would return the machines to "normal."

  14. #34
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    I'm just speculating, but if I were gaffing machines, I would program high limit machines to hit fewer royals on a rotating basis, maybe in conjunction with invitational promos to high rollers. No single player could possibly make a case for there "not being enough royals" as no single player could accrue enough hands to get a sense of it, much less make a statistical case for it. Variance would protect the endeavor. When the promos were finished, I would return the machines to "normal."
    That's almost exactly how the American Coin scandal went down. The machines were programmed to hit royals only half as frequently as they should have. A heavily involved potential witness was murdered, if I remember correctly.

  15. #35
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I don't think any manufacturer that does business in Nevada would allow their games to be tampered with. Losing the right to do business in Nevada would be too costly.

    Now a question about "tampering": What are you guys talking about? Are you saying there is only 51 cards in a deck for video poker? Or are you saying royal flushes can never be hit? Or are you saying when a program says the game is 8/5 Bonus it really only pays 7/5? Please be specific.
    I'm just speculating, but if I were gaffing machines, I would program high limit machines to hit fewer royals on a rotating basis, maybe in conjunction with invitational promos to high rollers. No single player could possibly make a case for there "not being enough royals" as no single player could accrue enough hands to get a sense of it, much less make a statistical case for it. Variance would protect the endeavor. When the promos were finished, I would return the machines to "normal."
    Point taken. I can't argue with that.

  16. #36
    To program the chips in a casino the EPROM needs to be removed from the machine. The code would then need to be reverse engineered to determine exactly how to change it. The code then needs to be rewritten on to the chip and the chip reinstalled in the machine. Of course, this would break the manufacturer's seal making it obvious the machine had been tampered with.

    Casino personnel do not have the programming skills which means someone would need to be hired. In addition, you would need to buy an EPROM reader/writer for the technology used by the manufacturer and completely test out all facets of the code to assure no obvious errors got through.

    This is not something easy to do. Those who think these machines can be easily changed are basically clueless.

  17. #37
    To me, the question is can they be programmed, in a simulated random format, to allow fair distribution of player win/casino take hands? This could explain the obvious hot/cold cycles, etc. This way, the biggest casino advantage would be player mistakes.

  18. #38
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I don't think any manufacturer that does business in Nevada would allow their games to be tampered with. Losing the right to do business in Nevada would be too costly.

    Now a question about "tampering": What are you guys talking about? Are you saying there is only 51 cards in a deck for video poker? Or are you saying royal flushes can never be hit? Or are you saying when a program says the game is 8/5 Bonus it really only pays 7/5? Please be specific.
    First Alan, arci is correct that altering a vp machine's software is not something just any casino employee who comes along can do, nor is it something that could occur everyday. However, the IGT "7's or better" five-joker machine I encountered overseas with its astronomical mathematical pay-back percentage, eliminated any hopes I had that altering the vp machines can't be done, and also showed me how ANYTHING can be accomplished by people who make it their business to accomplish it. And if a backwards country like Kazakhstan can find someone to do this, just how difficult would it be to locate knowledgeable people around Nevada to do it?

    And why do you think the MANUFACTURERS would be the responsible party here? Plus, in responding to your assumption that they couldn't afford to lose business in Nevada: do you actually believe that casinos would stop leasing or buying from any particular manufacturer either the newest rage and/or the lowest priced machines, just because of legal issues that obviously would not receive much press?

  19. #39
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    And I've been playing them with much greater success than you. No one says they're ALL "gaffed" all the time or even which ones. The only thing you're accomplishing by being a denier is further showing g your lack of a higher education, where people learn to think first before popping off about things they know little about in a way to comfort themselves.

    NGC is nothing more than a bureaucratic joke when it comes to enforcing gaming activities and policies for the public. They coexist with the casinos and machine & game manufacturers for the same purposes state governments do. And I played in high limit vp rooms overnight for over ten years, and I NEVER witnessed any of these "random checks" you claim to have seen.
    If what you say is true, highly suspect, you made $750,000 over a 15 year period. That's about what the average family makes over 15 years. If you would have done that much in a year or two you would have something to brag about. You haven't had more success than me but since you are a snitch for the IRS I'll leave it to your imagination.

    In 2006 Gaming came into the Hotel Nevada in Ely to test chips. The assistant manager was bitching to me about it because they didn't announce they were coming and it upset his routine. Gaming determined that the chips in all 10 spin pokers had to be replaced. Their reason? The chips were getting to old. Since my play was on the spin pokers I had to sit out while all of that was done.

  20. #40
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    And why do you think the MANUFACTURERS would be the responsible party here?
    Under NGC regulations, if there are any problems with a company's machines in other jurisdictions they cannot be licensed in Nevada.

    This prevents, for example, Company X machines to work well in Nevada, but other Company X machines that can be tampered with in BoogieBoogieLand.

    Why does the NGC say this? Because they don't want a casino in Nevada to buy Company X machines that were used in BoogieBoogieLand where they might have been tampered with.

    Now, unless you have some evidence of a world wide conspiracy, let's drop it.

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