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Thread: Singer RV Receipt

  1. #181
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    You are obsessed with me. You can't get me off your mind. Now, I'm not gay so you better stick with KJ. He tells me you are quite the rump roaster.
    Says the donkey with me featured in his signature line.
    I have a bottomfeeding, nickel hustling, rump roasting maggot featured in my signature line.
    KJ fudge packs maxpen up the ass 3 times a day.

  2. #182
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Of course Singer never played it. What is the purpose of continuing this discussion. Fat lady can't sing anymore. Laryngitis has set in.
    Right. That's old news. The current topic is Singer's Million Dollar+ RV. If you had to bet, would you say it's for real or a real figment of his imagination?
    If you make the bet big enough the RV will become real.

    Let me explain in case you haven't figured out the thinking of a con artist.

    If you make a $100,000 bet with me, with proof that your $100,000 is in escrow, I can guarantee you that I can get a $600,000 RV to win your $100k.

    All I need to do is promise my investor or front man $60,000 for the RV for two or three days use... including a totally legal lease/buyback deal. He gets $60k and I keep $40k for a few hours of work including showing you the RV and the paperwork.
    Or, to put it in historic terms,

    "One of these days in your travels, a guy is going to show you a brand new deck of cards on which the seal is not yet broken. Then this guy is going to offer to bet you that he can make the jack of spades jump out of this brand new deck of cards and spit cider in your ear. But, son, do not accept this bet, because as sure as you stand there, you're going to wind up with an earful of cider."

    Sky Masterson. (Guys and Dolls; 1955)

  3. #183
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    No, but that pretty much goes without saying. I mean if he’d paid taxes on it, he’d show us his tax returns that he won $2.8 MM in gambling winnings over 4 years. I mean he claimed it was so important to him to get this story out that he couldn’t hold it in. If that’s the case, he’d show us his tax returns.

    Also, Rob would know that showing steady winnings of this magnitude would set off alarm bells at the IRS. I can assure you his tax returns would be flagged for auditing. This would smell of laundering money, and being involved in the drug trade or something like that, so it would be looked into. This is why it’s almost better keeping some of it off his tax returns, even if he did it. But then if Rob did that, he knows he could go to jail for tax fraud. Again, there is no statute of limitations for tax fraud, and I’m sure Rob knows that.

    Again, it’s called common sense stuff. If Rob did this, I doubt if he claimed $2.8 million on his taxes for gambling winnings. And if he didn’t claim this amount and he won this amount, he could go to jail. This has come up before. There are about 100 things you could point to that make no sense in Rob’s story.
    I would never believe anything Singer says without overwhelming proof. I have seen no such proof about ANY of his claims. Unfortunately, your 'scientific' argument here is weak. Assuming Rob did win what he claims with the double up flaw, it would be stupid of him to not claim it as income and pay taxes on it. Why? Because most of those winnings would be reported on W2Gs. The IRS already knows about the gambling income. The criminal act would be not reporting that income.

    It's my contention that Kane and Nestor and (allegedly) Rob did nothing illegal. Remember charges against Kane and Nestor were dropped. They were never convicted of anything. Why is that? It's not a criminal act to exploit a design flaw in a gaming machine. It's the Game Manufacturer's and Casino's responsibility to deploy gaming devices that are tested and perform as they expect. If they put a weak design into production that's not the gambler's fault. Just like if they have a dealer who exposes his hole card or a biased roulette wheel (which have been exploited for over a century). It's their job to make sure their games can't be exploited and that they are making the correct pay outs. All the gambler does is push the buttons.

    So, if Rob felt what he was doing was perfectly legal, why would he make these claims that he waited until the running of the statute of limitation before discussing his multi-million dollar score? It would have nothing to do with the IRS. The logical thing to do there is report and pay all taxes.

    I can think of a few reasons why waiting would make sense. Although there is no criminal liability, there may be civil liability. The casinos could make the case in civil court that Nevada law voids winnings on machine malfunctions and that money rightly belongs to the casino. There is a statute of limitations on civil cases. Also, although it may end up being ruled a legal play, the casinos and Clark County law enforcement are in bed on anything that impacts casino profits. They could still charge a double up perpetrator with all kinds of crimes to send a message. Sure he would eventually prevail....after spending a fortune in legal fees. That's a message. So why not wait just until there is no possibility of prosecution?

    With all that said if Rob actually exploited the double up flaw, the really stupid thing he did was to ever mention it at all. I could see some relief at passing the time you can be charged or they can sue you in civil court, but mentioning it in a public forum after the fact is just plain stupid. There is no reason to do that.

    Although without real evidence, it's not possible to prove Rob exploited the double up flaw or ever made money with his martingale VP betting scheme. I think both are highly unlikely but not impossible. I do think we can agree on acceptable terms for a wager that can proves Rob owned the Motor Home he claims. This is a lot more tangible. So...if we get agreement on acceptable proof, how much are you in for? 10 Grand? More?
    One question: If what Kane and Nestor did was legal why did they have to return all their money? People who obtain money through a legal means don’t have to return it.

    Their Lawyers did everything they could to keep them out of jail. And I agree the prosecutors came after them for the wrong reasons.

    And one more comment. Rob said he won a lot of the money below the W2G form. There would be no reason to claim this money unless he wanted to.

    Look none of Rob’s story makes any sense. He purposely didn’t keep his tax records or any proof of anything because he most likely didn’t win anything. That’s why he doesn’t have to worry about the IRS coming after him for anything.

    You are right nothing can be proved and I have said that over and over. But common sense should tell anybody Rob didn’t exploit the double up bug. It’s amazing anybody believes it might’ve happen at this stage of the game.

    Read what I said about Science. I said Science says you can’t prove anything. I never said I was given a scientific proof of anything. It only takes a little common sense to know this didn’t happen.
    The money was confiscated as evidence before the outcome of the case. Once it was confiscated good luck getting it back even if the case is thrown out.
    KJ fudge packs maxpen up the ass 3 times a day.

  4. #184
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    You are obsessed with me. You can't get me off your mind. Now, I'm not gay so you better stick with KJ. He tells me you are quite the rump roaster.
    Says the donkey with me featured in his signature line.
    I have a bottomfeeding, nickel hustling, rump roasting maggot featured in my signature line.
    Just keep being Rob's little bitch stageboy and all will be good with the world. I'm enjoying the freakshow.

  5. #185
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    One question: If what Kane and Nestor did was legal why did they have to return all their money? People who obtain money through a legal means don’t have to return it.
    Except that's not what happened. Kane kept his entire $500,000 winnings. Nestor's winnings in Pennsylvania were seized by the local district attorney WHEN HE WAS ARRESTED and returned to the Meadows casino without any court ruling or agreement by Nestor. There was a third party, Nestor's roommate who did turn over more of Nestor's money upon threat of hundreds of fraud charges. That wasn't his money anyway.

    But just to be clear, I never claimed Rob did the double up flaw....only that your speculation on why he wouldn't report it as income makes no sense. That's why I asked you if he admitted not filing income taxes on it. But regardless. That isn't even the question. The question is if Rob has been tooling around the country for years in a 1.3 million dollar Motor Home. I think that would be a lot easier to prove. I was hoping Rob would join in so we could have a 'Put up or shut up' moment.
    Did you read the wired article? The reason Kane kept his winnings is because the casinos didn't come after him. And the prosecution had a hard time identifying where it came from.

    The reason Nester had to give up his winnings is because the casino came after him. It was easier to know where Nester's winnings came from since he went back to the same casino again and again and again. And the IRS is still after Nester. From the article: "Nestor says the Meadows still has his winnings, and the IRS is chasing him for $239,861.04 in back taxes, interest, and penalties—money he doesn't have."

    I get no one can prove anything. But common sense should tell you if someone really won $2.8 million through illegal means (and regardless of what you think, this is what the DUB was) they would not want to open up a can of worms and brag about it. There is no way to know where this could lead. Most smart people would keep quite and take it to the grave.

    Now if someone didn't win $2.8 million through illegal means, then they might want to have fun with it and brag about it.

    That's my only point. I get it doesn't prove anything.

  6. #186
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    Did you read the wired article? The reason Kane kept his winnings is because the casinos didn't come after him. And the prosecution had a hard time identifying where it came from.
    lol....This is exactly what the casinos want you to think. That they could have gotten their money back if they wanted and the prosecution just didn't have enough evidence.

    These are the same casinos that are working daily with their district attorneys to get people who are late paying their markers charged with felony bad check writing. Casinos are notoriously possessive of their money. You don't think they'd try to get back a half million if they had any shot at it? Think again.

    They just don't want to be held responsible next time their gambling devices don't work the way they think they do. I also wouldn't be surprised if Game King paid off some of the losses back to the casinos to prevent further publicity. They probably had the most culpability of all as I'm sure those machines are certified tested to the GCB to work as designed.

  7. #187
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    Did you read the wired article? The reason Kane kept his winnings is because the casinos didn't come after him. And the prosecution had a hard time identifying where it came from.
    lol....This is exactly what the casinos want you to think. That they could have gotten their money back if they wanted and the prosecution just didn't have enough evidence.

    These are the same casinos that are working daily with their district attorneys to get people who are late paying their markers charged with felony bad check writing. Casinos are notoriously possessive of their money. You don't think they'd try to get back a half million if they had any shot at it? Think again.

    They just don't want to be held responsible next time their gambling devices don't work the way they think they do. I also wouldn't be surprised if Game King paid off some of the losses back to the casinos to prevent further publicity. They probably had the most culpability of all as I'm sure those machines are certified tested to the GCB to work as designed.
    I agree with most of what you said. Everybody bungled this one, so it was best to just sweep it under the rug and move on for all parties, the prosecutors, the casinos and IGT.

    But this doesn’t mean if it was handled differently, this could have been really bad for Kane and Nester. What they did is illegal and they kind of knew it.

    That’s my whole point. If someone ever exploits something like this for several years (and it’s probably happened), if they are smart, they won’t brag about it. They will take it to their grave and be glad they got away with it.

    And one more point, Meadows casino in Pennsylvania did get their money back from Nester. He didn’t get to keep it. Why? Because he won it illegally.

    If casinos knew how much Kane took from them, I’m sure those casinos would have got their money back too.

  8. #188
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    The reason Nester had to give up his winnings is because the casino came after him. It was easier to know where Nester's winnings came from since he went back to the same casino again and again and again. And the IRS is still after Nester. From the article: "Nestor says the Meadows still has his winnings, and the IRS is chasing him for $239,861.04 in back taxes, interest, and penalties—money he doesn't have."
    If you read it again you'll see that his money was seized and handed back to Meadows when he was originally charged. This never went to trial.

    The rub is that he got the money. The money was given back to Meadows. The IRS wants taxes on the money that was seized. He can't pay the IRS. He can't pay attorneys to fight the casino to get his money back.

    No question he's screwed but that doesn't mean he did anything criminal. I don't think he did anything illegal. That's why all charges were dropped against both. But that was only after 18 months of costly legal battles. They pissed off the gambling establishment that's the life blood of the State of Nevada and many locals across the country. There are repercussions for that whether or not your actions are legal.

  9. #189
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    1. What they did is illegal and they kind of knew it.

    2. If someone ever exploits something like this for several years (and it’s probably happened), if they are smart, they won’t brag about it. They will take it to their grave and be glad they got away with it.
    #1 we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think there's a law to cover what they did. It may be sneaky, but I don't think it was a crime.
    #2..We agree. Lots of reason to never mention this to anyone.

    Now...the real question is do you think Rob has that deluxe RV?

  10. #190
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    I don't think there's a law to cover what they did.
    I think there is a law and Alan quoted it.

    5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.


    This is exactly what they did, changed the bet amount (denomination) after the outcome of the game or event. Like I said, when people think of this they think of capping a table game bet with more chips. They did the same thing, just did so electronically.

    Pennsylvania and other jurisdictions probably haven't been in the game long enough to know how to handle this. But if this had been taken to court here in Nevada and this #5 law cited, it would have been game over. Nevada knows how to protect their casino industry.

    It would be interesting to hear Bob N's take on this. I wonder if he would have taken this case? Seems like I may have discussed this case with him briefly at one point, but I can't seem to remember. Must not have made an impression on me. Axelwolf or anyone else, have you ever discussed this with Bob N?
    Last edited by kewlJ; 05-23-2020 at 07:42 PM.

  11. #191
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    1. What they did is illegal and they kind of knew it.

    2. If someone ever exploits something like this for several years (and it’s probably happened), if they are smart, they won’t brag about it. They will take it to their grave and be glad they got away with it.
    #1 we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think there's a law to cover what they did. It may be sneaky, but I don't think it was a crime.
    #2..We agree. Lots of reason to never mention this to anyone.

    Now...the real question is do you think Rob has that deluxe RV?
    I guess I agree with you on #1. I see it kind of like the Phil Ivey edge sorting scandal. Technically, Phil didn’t do anything illegal, but the courts, both in Britain and here, ruled he had to give the money back to the casinos because he violated the spirit of the game, or something like that.

    Technically, Kane and Nester didn’t do anything illegal, but when they got caught they had to give it back, if the casinos could show they took it.

    Bottom line is if I found something like DUB, I would have exploited it for a lot more than only $2.8 million in 5 years. That’s nothing for how easy this play was once you knew how to activate it. And you’d have never seen me brag about it. It’s hard to know how these things turn out, so it’s better to keep your trap shut all the way to your grave.

    I still think had Rob really done it, he wouldn’t have risked anything by bragging about it. If he didn’t do it, then why not have some fun with this group. I mean there’s a sucker born everyday, and we definitely have a couple suckers on this forum.

  12. #192
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    I don't think there's a law to cover what they did.
    I think there is a law and Alan quoted it.

    5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.


    N?
    Ok. That's interesting. In the same section there another paragraph that might apply:

    "7. To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game."

    What's also interesting is these are the "2013 REVISED STATUTES". I wonder if these were written after the fact to address the double up bug.

  13. #193
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    I don't think there's a law to cover what they did.
    I think there is a law and Alan quoted it.

    5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.


    N?
    Ok. That's interesting. In the same section there another paragraph that might apply:

    "7. To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game."

    What's also interesting is these are the "2013 REVISED STATUTES". I wonder if these were written after the fact to address the double up bug.
    If these were revised in 2013, then it doesn't apply to this case. let's assume it was revised because of this case.

    But either way, I am not sure your #7 applied. The manipulation did not alter the outcome of the play or spin. It altered the payout and denomination.

  14. #194
    In my original post on the Nevada law I mentioned sections 5, 6 and 7. Mr Kewlj agreed with 5. Section 7 also applies with these key words:

    " in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose"

    Simply, machines were not designed to allow you to change denominations by pressing any buttons after an outcome is known. Section 7 provides reinforcement to Section 5.

    I don't know if Sections 5, 6, 7 were changed or added because of the DUB or if they were there for years and years. What I can tell you, which is what I told you before, is that I ACTUALLY CALLED AND SPOKE WITH THE GAMING ENFORCEMENT OFFICE OF THE NGC IN LAS VEGAS AND YOU SHOULD DO THE SAME INSTEAD OF MAKING UP YOUR OWN THEORIES.

  15. #195
    Nestor share joint account roommate, roommate handed money freely. Not confiscated.

  16. #196
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post

    Says the donkey with me featured in his signature line.
    I have a bottomfeeding, nickel hustling, rump roasting maggot featured in my signature line.
    Just keep being Rob's little bitch stageboy and all will be good with the world. I'm enjoying the freakshow.
    Yes, I'm enjoying watching the real freakshow "As Stoogeboy Maxpenn and KJocchio Turns." Hilarious how Rob has you two squealing like pigs with your noses in your computers 24 hours a day looking for something, anything that will prove Rob wrong. All this while Rob is on a lengthy vacation enjoying himself. You can't make this shit up.
    KJ fudge packs maxpen up the ass 3 times a day.

  17. #197
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    I don't think there's a law to cover what they did.
    I think there is a law and Alan quoted it.

    5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.


    This is exactly what they did, changed the bet amount (denomination) after the outcome of the game or event. Like I said, when people think of this they think of capping a table game bet with more chips. They did the same thing, just did so electronically.

    Pennsylvania and other jurisdictions probably haven't been in the game long enough to know how to handle this. But if this had been taken to court here in Nevada and this #5 law cited, it would have been game over. Nevada knows how to protect their casino industry.

    It would be interesting to hear Bob N's take on this. I wonder if he would have taken this case? Seems like I may have discussed this case with him briefly at one point, but I can't seem to remember. Must not have made an impression on me. Axelwolf or anyone else, have you ever discussed this with Bob N?
    The key question here is when was this regulation added. Was it there in 2009?
    KJ fudge packs maxpen up the ass 3 times a day.

  18. #198
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    I don't think there's a law to cover what they did.
    I think there is a law and Alan quoted it.

    5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.


    This is exactly what they did, changed the bet amount (denomination) after the outcome of the game or event. Like I said, when people think of this they think of capping a table game bet with more chips. They did the same thing, just did so electronically.

    Pennsylvania and other jurisdictions probably haven't been in the game long enough to know how to handle this. But if this had been taken to court here in Nevada and this #5 law cited, it would have been game over. Nevada knows how to protect their casino industry.

    It would be interesting to hear Bob N's take on this. I wonder if he would have taken this case? Seems like I may have discussed this case with him briefly at one point, but I can't seem to remember. Must not have made an impression on me. Axelwolf or anyone else, have you ever discussed this with Bob N?
    The key question here is when was this regulation added. Was it there in 2009?
    Mr Crimm the regulations I quoted are NEVADA regulations. I don't know the laws in other jurisdictions. But I want to remind you that these regulations were not used in the case against Kane and Nestor.

    I found out about these regulations only when I discussed the claims of Mr Singer and his statute of limitations defense with the NGC.

    If what Mr Singer claims to be true is true he will not be prosecuted.

    That doesn't mean his claims are true, however.

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