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Thread: Eliot and Don Feud

  1. #1
    Maybe some folks saw it over at BJTF. Don calling Eliot some really nasty names. If anyone else did it it would be grounds for a suspension by Norm.

    Anyway is Eliot really the traitor Don makes him out to be? Eliot never has tried to hide the fact that he worked on the casino side. What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    Maybe some folks saw it over at BJTF. Don calling Eliot really nasty names. If anyone else did it it would be grounds for a suspension by Norm.

    Anyway is Eliot really the traitor Don makes him out to be? Eliot never has tried to hide the fact that he worked on the casino side. What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?
    Are you kidding me with this shit? Absolutely Eliot (teliot at WoV) is a traitor!

    Eliot is a brilliant gambling math guy. I suppose math in general, but for our purposes gambling math. And he attempted to support himself from advantage play, in particular card counting as this was a number of years ago before the table game explosion AP opportunities. And he failed. It is my understanding he failed because he couldn't handle the swings and variance, not having anything to do with math. Just goes to show it takes more than a little math to be successful.

    Anyway, when he failed he started working for the dark side. And you know what, you are right. There is nothing wrong with that, to some extent. Wong did it. Mike did it. Revere certainly did it.

    But eliot took it to an extreme. He formed his own company and without even having any casino clients he wrote a book exposing all the advantage plays that he could think of in great detail. Newer things the casino industry was just starting to know existed, but didn't know about. Eliot explained step by step how all these different plays worked and the advantage. And he didn't even get paid for that. He gave that information away to the dark side for free (well the cost of his book). It was a pretty clear cut case of spite for those that were succeeding where he failed.

    Later he started doing seminars for the casino industry for pay. AP's weren't even allowed in, although a pretty good number got in. It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

    Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain. He is the very definition of the word traitor. He earned it and he deserves all the crap he gets for the rest of his life.

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    Maybe some folks saw it over at BJTF. Don calling Eliot some really nasty names. If anyone else did it it would be grounds for a suspension by Norm.

    Anyway is Eliot really the traitor Don makes him out to be? Eliot never has tried to hide the fact that he worked on the casino side. What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?
    MWP, I did see it, and I thought you did a good job trying to calm things down. Wow, you could see those two went way back with their hostilities toward each other.

    While I’m sure there is some fault on both sides, Don is definitely the guilt party. It was unprofessional for Don to call someone out of Eliot’s stature on something like Don did. And then they both escalated it. It’ll be interesting to see what happens.

  4. #4
    All we need now is for Eliot to start quoting page numbers from his book.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    All we need now is for Eliot to start quoting page numbers from his book.
    Well most of Don's posts do that as well, so I am not going to hold THAT against eliot.

    What about my recap (above) jbjb. You are a guy who knows. Anything I got wrong?

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    All we need now is for Eliot to start quoting page numbers from his book.
    Well most of Don's posts do that as well, so I am not going to hold THAT against eliot.

    What about my recap (above) jbjb. You are a guy who knows. Anything I got wrong?
    Never read any of his books. Only know from what's he posted. But yeah, you're mostly correct.

    The problem is the hypocrisy over others like him, namely Rubin. He may not have done as much as Eliot, but he's no different. I wouldn't trust either one of them. No AP should!

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post

    The problem is the hypocrisy over others like him, namely Rubin. He may not have done as much as Eliot, but he's no different. I wouldn't trust either one of them. No AP should!
    I don't know Max. I don't believe I ever even communicated with him on a forum. Trying to think. Was he on BJinfo occasionally when I was there during the first carnation (pre-2012)? I don't know. Was he occasionally on BJ21 during the time I was off and on there? I don't remember any interactions with him, unless he was posting under a name I didn't know.

    BUT, I have said for Years that Max Rubin is not a friend to AP's. Gotten a lot of flack for it too. Especially from people like Don and Munchkin, if I remember correctly. Didn't change my mind, but I just don't say it much anymore. Not really a topic that comes up on these forums.

    You know what I think the problem is jbjb, all the guys in the BJHoF and the BJ gold old boys clubs, are all retired from blackjack and any kind of active AP play. Or most of them anyway. Munchkin and James are still active. So most of these guys knew Max and formed their friendship when he was comp city Max and still on our side. Since they are no longer active, they look the other way. I don't know, if you are an active player Max Rubin is no friend of AP's. Luckily his existence is pretty much tied to one location, so he isn't doing harm through out industry like Eliot did.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post

    The problem is the hypocrisy over others like him, namely Rubin. He may not have done as much as Eliot, but he's no different. I wouldn't trust either one of them. No AP should!
    I don't know Max. I don't believe I ever even communicated with him on a forum. Trying to think. Was he on BJinfo occasionally when I was there during the first carnation (pre-2012)? I don't know. Was he occasionally on BJ21 during the time I was off and on there? I don't remember any interactions with him, unless he was posting under a name I didn't know.

    BUT, I have said for Years that Max Rubin is not a friend to AP's. Gotten a lot of flack for it too. Especially from people like Don and Munchkin, if I remember correctly. Didn't change my mind, but I just don't say it much anymore. Not really a topic that comes up on these forums.

    You know what I think the problem is jbjb, all the guys in the BJHoF and the BJ gold old boys clubs, are all retired from blackjack and any kind of active AP play. Or most of them anyway. Munchkin and James are still active. So most of these guys knew Max and formed their friendship when he was comp city Max and still on our side. Since they are no longer active, they look the other way. I don't know, if you are an active player Max Rubin is no friend of AP's. Luckily his existence is pretty much tied to one location, so he isn't doing harm through out industry like Eliot did.
    The problem with Rubin isn't the fact that he works for a casino. Hell, many casino employees, including management types, actually AP at competing joints. Its the fact that he advocates(d) for AP's but also will rat you out as well.

    Again, him and Jacobson are no different except Jacobson did it with a larger clientele.

  9. #9
    Let me add this. They both found a niche for themselves. I won't go so far as to call either one, or anyone else like them a traitor. What I don't like are two faced people pretending to be on your side when really, they're not.

  10. #10
    I have been so busy here , that I haven't followed the drama at BJNormF in real time, but just caught up. Interesting!

    Eliot claims he has been an advocate of allowing card counters to play for years with the casino industry. I never head anyone else say anything like that and it doesn't mesh with some of the things I have read from him. I do know that fairly recently, several years ago, when he wrote his book and basically posted the same things on his blog, he did have some wording about card counters are no real threat compared to the hole-card plays he was exposing. I wouldn't call that advocating for allowing card counters to play. I call it twisting words to make his case that there are bigger threats and that is why they should hire or consult with him.

    Bill Zender, now he advocated for allowing card counters to play. Rightfully showed that 99.9% of card counters are no real threat and most have holes in their game or are not properly bankrolled or just to scared to throw out the big bet. He advocated that casinos should offer deep penetration, which would increase casino win from everybody and not worry about that 99.9% that aren't doing any real damage. That they should just focus on the high level players and team. THAT was advocating for allowing card counters! Not what Eliot said.


    So moving on, the drama at the NormForum is most interesting. I am a big Don fan, despite having had my own mini-feud with him in the last 6 months. He is definitely growing grouchy as time goes on. If anyone else had said what Don said, they would have been suspended. But members aren't on equal footing at BJTF...never have been.

    So Don said what was on his mind. If Eliot is someone Norm welcomes to the forum, Don should let it go. But he won't. Both of them demanding Norm do something can only result in Norm backing Don. They are 45 year friends.

  11. #11
    Where do you think guys like T-Eliot get all their information from? Do you think they come up with all these different method , plays and angles and moves on their own? I certainly hope nobody believes that's the case.
    They get it multiple different ways, but mainly from other Advantage Players talking too much(you know, guys that brag on forums about a play once they believe a play is over, or they even talk about what they're doing during a play, you know, look at what got stolen out of my safe), or if the casinos present them with something to analyze. Sure he probably comes up but different ways that can be applied on various different games once he has the initial information. You damn well better believe he(and others like him) have little birdies that love to run back and feed him information about what's going on in the AP World.

    Right before Eliot quit his business or however you want to describe it and basically disappeared from Wizard of Vegas there was a scandal Brewing regarding him, the main person decided to keep it to themselves and move on with their life. I'm not sure if that was the reason why he retired or whatever you want to call it, but the timing was certainly Dead on.

    I don't hate the guy. If you take away the dark side crap he seems like a decent person, it just is what it is, it. It certainly seems like he's done well for himself(?)

    From what I understand, and it's been a long time since I've heard this so take it with a grain of salt, but his former partners do in fact call him a traitor who use their Advantage play information and names to get started on the Darkside path because he couldn't handle actual Advantage Play. I have no firsthand knowledge of this myself I just know what other people have said. I'm sure it's not as bad as many people think and I'm sure it's far worse than he would have you believe.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    I have been so busy here , that I haven't followed the drama at BJNormF in real time, but just caught up. Interesting!

    Eliot claims he has been an advocate of allowing card counters to play for years with the casino industry. I never head anyone else say anything like that and it doesn't mesh with some of the things I have read from him. I do know that fairly recently, several years ago, when he wrote his book and basically posted the same things on his blog, he did have some wording about card counters are no real threat compared to the hole-card plays he was exposing. I wouldn't call that advocating for allowing card counters to play. I call it twisting words to make his case that there are bigger threats and that is why they should hire or consult with him.

    Bill Zender, now he advocated for allowing card counters to play. Rightfully showed that 99.9% of card counters are no real threat and most have holes in their game or are not properly bankrolled or just to scared to throw out the big bet. He advocated that casinos should offer deep penetration, which would increase casino win from everybody and not worry about that 99.9% that aren't doing any real damage. That they should just focus on the high level players and team. THAT was advocating for allowing card counters! Not what Eliot said.


    So moving on, the drama at the NormForum is most interesting. I am a big Don fan, despite having had my own mini-feud with him in the last 6 months. He is definitely growing grouchy as time goes on. If anyone else had said what Don said, they would have been suspended. But members aren't on equal footing at BJTF...never have been.

    So Don said what was on his mind. If Eliot is someone Norm welcomes to the forum, Don should let it go. But he won't. Both of them demanding Norm do something can only result in Norm backing Don. They are 45 year friends.
    I sure would like to know where this 99% figure comes from? It completely sounds made up and it seems like it's stuck. I can guarantee you that it's a much higher percentage halfway competent card counters that are in fact a threat to the casinos. If you want to include every Joe Blow that tried card counting once, then there might actually be some truth to that.

    And here's the funny thing... I hear lots of competent card counters repeating the same 99% figure. I think you guys are fooling yourselves because you want that to be true and you would love for the casinos to believe that. Sure, it would be absolutely be great for everyone into Advantage play if the casinos believe that, but it's not going to happen, because it's simply not true. A few competent card counters certainly wouldn't be that big of a threat to the casinos. But they can't just sit there and let card counters play unmolested or they would have a serious issue. If you have hundreds of card counters pecking away at you over and over and over, it's eventually going to hurt. There are enough company card counters out there that if left unmolested they would be a considerable problem.

    Strangely enough, this discussion did came up the other day involving some competent card counters who are saying the same thing about the 99% figure. after some discussion think I swayed them into believing that number was way off and card counters could potentially do significant damage at the casinos didn't keep it in check. Obviously, other methods can hurt the casino much worse. But if you think about that, there's far less people out there participating in those types of methods compared to how many competent card counters there are. I'm just guessing here, but it's probably a 80 to 1 ratio.
    Are the people using other methods making 80 times the amount then all the card counters put together?
    Last edited by AxelWolf; 05-25-2020 at 02:02 AM.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Where do you think guys like T-Eliot get all their information from? Do you think they come up with all these different method , plays and angles and moves on their own? I certainly hope nobody believes that's the case.
    They get it multiple different ways, but mainly from other Advantage Players talking too much(you know, guys that brag on forums about a play once they believe a play is over, or they even talk about what they're doing during a play, you know, look at what got stolen out of my safe), or if the casinos present them with something to analyze. Sure he probably comes up but different ways that can be applied on various different games once he has the initial information. You damn well better believe he(and others like him) have little birdies that love to run back and feed him information about what's going on in the AP World.

    Right before Eliot quit his business or however you want to describe it and basically disappeared from Wizard of Vegas there was a scandal Brewing regarding him, the main person decided to keep it to themselves and move on with their life. I'm not sure if that was the reason why he retired or whatever you want to call it, but the timing was certainly Dead on.

    I don't hate the guy. If you take away the dark side crap he seems like a decent person, it just is what it is, it. It certainly seems like he's done well for himself(?)

    From what I understand, and it's been a long time since I've heard this so take it with a grain of salt, but his former partners do in fact call him a traitor who use their Advantage play information and names to get started on the Darkside path because he couldn't handle actual Advantage Play. I have no firsthand knowledge of this myself I just know what other people have said. I'm sure it's not as bad as many people think and I'm sure it's far worse than he would have you believe.
    I understand why AP's value their secrets but the sad fact most don't want to admit is that the more "damage" is done by exposing plays, the less damage is truly done.

    For example, if I am the only person in the entire world who knows a play, I am perfectly free to expose it if I wish since I only hurt myself.

    Now other AP's start screaming they knew it too. Oh, so then I am not alone in the world and what I thought was a secret of my own isn't such a secret really. I have hurt those other AP's because they had figured out many of the moves as well. Now all the AP's are angry that the dark side has been alerted.

    But then you come to find out just like other AP figured put what you did, so did people on the Dark Side. So the AP's who claim to be so damaged are just being blind to their own superiority as well.

    How many card counters would be at work today without Ed Thorpe's book? How many would be successful without the many books that describe AP methods of card counting.

    Probably for every casino exec who read Teliots book AND did something that made the game prohibitive there are ten times as many AP's who gleaned valuable info from it.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    I have been so busy here , that I haven't followed the drama at BJNormF in real time, but just caught up. Interesting!

    Eliot claims he has been an advocate of allowing card counters to play for years with the casino industry. I never head anyone else say anything like that and it doesn't mesh with some of the things I have read from him. I do know that fairly recently, several years ago, when he wrote his book and basically posted the same things on his blog, he did have some wording about card counters are no real threat compared to the hole-card plays he was exposing. I wouldn't call that advocating for allowing card counters to play. I call it twisting words to make his case that there are bigger threats and that is why they should hire or consult with him.

    Bill Zender, now he advocated for allowing card counters to play. Rightfully showed that 99.9% of card counters are no real threat and most have holes in their game or are not properly bankrolled or just to scared to throw out the big bet. He advocated that casinos should offer deep penetration, which would increase casino win from everybody and not worry about that 99.9% that aren't doing any real damage. That they should just focus on the high level players and team. THAT was advocating for allowing card counters! Not what Eliot said.


    So moving on, the drama at the NormForum is most interesting. I am a big Don fan, despite having had my own mini-feud with him in the last 6 months. He is definitely growing grouchy as time goes on. If anyone else had said what Don said, they would have been suspended. But members aren't on equal footing at BJTF...never have been.

    So Don said what was on his mind. If Eliot is someone Norm welcomes to the forum, Don should let it go. But he won't. Both of them demanding Norm do something can only result in Norm backing Don. They are 45 year friends.
    I sure would like to know where this 99% figure comes from? It completely sounds made up and it seems like it's stuck. I can guarantee you that it's a much higher percentage halfway competent card counters that are in fact a threat to the casinos. If you want to include every Joe Blow that tried card counting once, then there might actually be some truth to that.

    And here's the funny thing... I hear lots of competent card counters repeating the same 99% figure. I think you guys are fooling yourselves because you want that to be true and you would love for the casinos to believe that. Sure, it would be absolutely be great for everyone into Advantage play if the casinos believe that, but it's not going to happen, because it's simply not true. A few competent card counters certainly wouldn't be that big of a threat to the casinos. But they can't just sit there and let card counters play unmolested or they would have a serious issue. If you have hundreds of card counters pecking away at you over and over and over, it's eventually going to hurt. There are enough company card counters out there that if left unmolested they would be a considerable problem.

    Strangely enough, this discussion did came up the other day involving some competent card counters who are saying the same thing about the 99% figure. after some discussion think I swayed them into believing that number was way off and card counters could potentially do significant damage at the casinos didn't keep it in check. Obviously, other methods can hurt the casino much worse. But if you think about that, there's far less people out there participating in those types of methods compared to how many competent card counters there are. I'm just guessing here, but it's probably a 80 to 1 ratio.
    Are the people using other methods making 80 times the amount then all the card counters put together?
    Good post Axel. Weíre in agreement here. This is one of the dumbest statements I hear Joe blow card counter make. And they always quote Zender, as if heís the worldís expert on this.

    I play in the south, in the Bilixo area. I played before Blakcjack Apprenticeship was around and after it started, which I think was about 10 years. There is no question in my next of the woods BJA has increased the number of card counters to where some of my local casinos have changed their rules and definitely their cut card placement. And I would too based on what I am seeing.

    There were times there were more counters at the table then ploppies. And every table would have at least one counter so you couldnít find a table without them. I touched base with a couple of them in the bathroom and almost everyone was on BJA.

    Casinos can only handle so many counters before they do damage. Even several red chippers banging away for hours will do damage. One casino I would frequent was very tolerant of counters, but over the past two years they have been backing them off pretty regularly. Iíve seen more backoffs in the last 2 years than in my prior 20 years. In fact, I canít think of seeing one backoff in my first 10 years, but I didnít go to casinos very often during that time.

    Counting isnít hard and it doesnít take much to get an advantage over the casino. I agree with Eliot in that I can spot counters very quickly, like in a couple mins. Heck, before coronavirus I most the time could spot them as they were sitting down at the table. Most are excatly what all the books say a stereotype counter looks like, white, 25 to 40, semi-intelligent looking, no personality type, etc.

    If I was the casino, Iíd back them off sooner than they do. Heck, half of them Iíd backoff before they sat down. They bring no value to the casino...and they arenít there with some ploppy friend. Iíve heard APs say this too and thatís just stupid.

    I guess I come from a background where people should work and contribute to society. Regardless what people think, a counter contributes nothing to society. The casino does. It gives people entertainment.

    Even though Iím a counter, and a pretty good one, I will always be on the casino side when it comes to the AP vs casino. Casinos need to protect themselves against APs otherwise they wonít be in business.

  15. #15
    You can add Michael Shackleford, Bob Dancer and David Sklansky to the list of those that have worked for the darkside. We all know Shack worked for Venetian. Take the Revel promotion, Shackleford published the strategy but Dancer warned execs they would get killed. And Shack protected Dancer from attack on his forum.

    Sklansky started out a casino hustler but became Bob Stupak's math guy and also advised Lyle Berman in the Grand Casinos. Sklansky advised Berman to take the IGT Vision Series out of the Grand Casinos.

    I've taken quite a lot of heat from other AP's for what I've written. I slowed way down on what I would expose.

    I should also point out that some AP's are hellbent to ruin the reputations of system players like Rob Singer. They should actually be promoting the Singer's of the gambling world as they pass on what AP's consider to be bogus information which can blunt the competition.
    KJ fudge packs maxpen up the ass 3 times a day.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    You can add Michael Shackleford, Bob Dancer and David Sklansky to the list of those that have worked for the darkside. We all know Shack worked for Venetian. Take the Revel promotion, Shackleford published the strategy but Dancer warned execs they would get killed. And Shack protected Dancer from attack on his forum.

    Sklansky started out a casino hustler but became Bob Stupak's math guy and also advised Lyle Berman in the Grand Casinos. Sklansky advised Berman to take the IGT Vision Series out of the Grand Casinos.

    I've taken quite a lot of heat from other AP's for what I've written. I slowed way down on what I would expose.

    I should also point out that some AP's are hellbent to ruin the reputations of system players like Rob Singer. They should actually be promoting the Singer's of the gambling world as they pass on what AP's consider to be bogus information which can blunt the competition.
    I agree with you Mickey. The only way AP play works is if there are few of us. I mean the casinos have to have the majority of their customers playing a losing game, otherwise they wonít stay in business.

    Thatís why Iíve never understood APs complaining about casinos taking peopleís money. Itís like APs think they are on some high horse. Theyíve got to know a casino has to do this or an AP wouldnít exists.

    Btw, Norm just closed the Eliot and Don Feud thread.

    And there isnít one person here who wouldnít work for a casino if they got paid more than they are making as an AP. Itís no different than any other business. Iím right now working for a company that was our biggest competitor when I worked for another company. We called them the evil empire. Why did I move over? Money and better job.

    This is what America is about. Working hard, moving up, etc. It seems like many APs struggle to understand this.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    I should also point out that some AP's are hellbent to ruin the reputations of system players like Rob Singer. They should actually be promoting the Singer's of the gambling world as they pass on what AP's consider to be bogus information which can blunt the competition.
    Very good point mickey. While we're at it 99.9% of card counters are fucken worthless.

    Norm closed the Eliot/Don thread this morning. Just when I was going to counter a small point that G Man-made, "to defend Bob21/Dbs6582" calling Dbs stupid "between the lines" in post #46. Now I am glad that Norm closed the thread and I did not get a chance to post after Bob agreed with Axel Wolf's above post.
    Last edited by BoSox; 05-25-2020 at 06:45 AM.

  18. #18
    Video uploaded in 2014. Schlesinger vs. Jacobson battle was noted at the end of the video.

    JSTAT on casinos, poker, and blackjack/baccarat card counting. Saying what needs to said at https://twitter.com/Casino_Examiner

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    I should also point out that some AP's are hellbent to ruin the reputations of system players like Rob Singer. They should actually be promoting the Singer's of the gambling world as they pass on what AP's consider to be bogus information which can blunt the competition.
    Very good point mickey. While we're at it 99.9% of card counters are fucken worthless.

    Norm closed the Eliot/Don thread this morning. Just when I was going to counter a small point that G Man-made, to defend Bob21/Dbs6582 calling him stupid "between the lines" in post #46. Now I am glad that Norm closed the thread and I did not get a chance to post after Bob agreed with Axel Wolf's above post.
    For the record Bosox, if I was managing a casino, Iíd be throwing out counters much quicker than I see going on. Iíd throw some of them out before they even sat down. Lol

    Btw, Max Rubin is not much different. He trains his employees to spot counters and throw them out. And I canít blame him.

    Whatís wrong with only wanting losing players? Name me one business where they want a couple customers who they are okay losing money to? You canít.

    Itís the same with Amazon, one of the biggest company in the world. They will back off their customers who they lose money too. Who are these customers? The ones who return things too often.

    This is just good business practice to get rid of your non-profitable customers. Iím surprised so many APs struggle to understand this.

    Thatís why I tip and try to be likeable when I go to casinos. I know Iím not adding value, so I just hope they donít throw me out, because if I was in their shoes, I would.

    You got to remember, the casinos are the good guys. Weíre the parasites. Lol. Please donít get too riled up. Iím just stating how I see it. I get other people see it differently.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    But eliot took it to an extreme. He formed his own company and without even having any casino clients
    My first casino client was in 2004 when Mike wrote to me and asked if I wanted some extra work as a gaming mathematician. Then in 2005, CDC consulting hired me to do market research projects for various clients. I believe the first casino client I had was PENN in 2005. A team of us did some secret shopping to compare various casinos in the midwest for what they were giving away in comps.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    he wrote a book exposing all the advantage plays that he could think of in great detail. Newer things the casino industry was just starting to know existed, but didn't know about.
    My first book was on card counting, in 2005. My second book was on designing table games, in 2010. My third book was a compilation of blog posts from 2011 to 2013, that came out in 2015. You are right that the casino industry didn't know about a lot of this stuff, but neither did most AP's. Now they do. Mission accomplished.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Eliot explained step by step how all these different plays worked and the advantage. And he didn't even get paid for that. He gave that information away to the dark side for free (well the cost of his book). It was a pretty clear cut case of spite for those that were succeeding where he failed.
    I have never been food driven. Getting paid is meaningless to me. I live in a beautiful house in Santa Barbara and I retired at age 59. Get it? Giving away information is a lesson that Bill Zender taught me. Be generous, he said. And, what I learned was that people would hire me to explain the stuff I was giving away for free.

    It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.
    I never, not once in my life, gave up an AP player or team that I knew from my AP days, or helped identify a single person I knew from my AP days. I swore a promise to my AP friends to never do that and I never broke that promise. This is the kind of lie that once started gains momentum, as it seems to be able justify everything someone wants to say about me.

    Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain.
    There you go again, thinking I sold out for financial gain. Did you forget I was a professor/lecturer at UCSB? The Computer Science department treated me very well. If it was financial gain I was interested in, I would have kept that job. I left even though I was effectively tenured.

    As I stated on BJTF, I was Phil Ivey's expert in his case AGAINST Crockford's Casino. I was the expert for the State of Florida in their case AGAINST the Seminole Tribe. I've busted major online casino corporations for cheating when I owned an ran the auditing company "Certified Fair Gambling." I was involved in bringing down a casino that was engaged in money-laundering. I've stressed in every seminar I have ever given on the subject that card counters are not a threat to casinos and should be ignored.

    What is true, KJ, is that you don't know anything about me or what I've done professionally, or my motivations. You make stuff up, as do most people, and then attach the word traitor to it as if that's all you need to say to justfify the BS. Generalizations are easy, but if you're going to attack, don't take every third-hand rumor as truth. Show the good grace of doing some fact checking first, that is what you would expect if it went the other way, right?

    I did very well as a consultant, but only because I burned bridges anytime I saw unethical behavior. Read this:

    https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/aft...n-from-gaming/

    Now, I volunteer. As a cop, at the local public TV station, at the Zoo. And, sadly, in these pandemic days, I spend a lot of time reading these forums, hopefully that will end soon.

    Meanwhile, what have you done?
    Last edited by Eliot; 05-25-2020 at 08:34 AM.

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