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Thread: Eliot and Don Feud

  1. #81
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?
    It is netiquette 101 to not confront folks about their spelling or grammar on forums. Don has been a grammar troll for more than 25 years on the forums on which he has participated. I have freely called him out for this behavior on multiple occasions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etique...ogy#Netiquette

    "When someone makes a mistake—whether it's a spelling error or a spelling flame, a stupid question or an unnecessarily long answer—be kind about it. If it's a minor error, you may not need to say anything. Even if you feel strongly about it, think twice before reacting. Having good manners yourself doesn't give you license to correct everyone else. If you do decide to inform someone of a mistake, point it out politely, and preferably by private email rather than in public. Give people the benefit of the doubt; assume they just don't know any better. And never be arrogant or self-righteous about it."


    In addition, what is the most famous thing Don is known for? The I-18. Here is part of what I wrote back in 2014.

    In Blackjack Attack, Schlesinger wrote:

    If you are a practicing hi-lo player and have diligently committed to memory 150 to 200 index numbers, you may be interested to learn that for this particular game and style of play, you might as well throw 90% of your numbers away and keep just the “Illustrious 18.” On the other hand, if you have just mastered true count and were about to embark upon your study of the index-number matrix, I have saved you a great deal of work. Learn the plays in the chart and forget about the rest. You can trust me that you won’t be missing much."


    To which I replied:

    When I was counting cards, it never occurred to me that less knowledge might be a good thing. Although I was not a professional AP, I took card counting seriously. To me, mastering index plays was part of beating the game. As a professional and academic, I cannot see why anyone would want less when they can have more. Giving up knowledge is giving up opportunity. It’s giving up on life. Advocating intellectual laziness seems antithetical to what being an AP is all about.

    https://www.888casino.com/blog/black...illustrious-18

    Eliot, I like to tell you something about your criticism on this board of Don Schlesinger. According to you Don S doesn't display enough netiquette towards other people. You also do not like his stance regarding index plays beyond the I18. Well, I will say one thing that Don S does not do, is continue to carry on like you are in an active thread that is now 80 posts where the other person involved in the subject matter is not even a member here and subsequently a non-participant. What does that say about you sir?

  2. #82
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Here goes KJ with his community garbage again.

    And he gets involved in another “feud”.

    Who didn’t see this coming? The Drama Queen lives for it.

    By the way Eliot, welcome and hopefully you are enjoying retirement. Not getting into the debate about what you do or did, but I will say you were always a courteous poster at WoV. I also understand not everything sees it that way. But we never will know exactly what Mike did for the Venetian either. Or who else has done what.
    Come on Boz, what are you reading? My post was a de-escalation. I said what I had to say. Eliot said his piece. I saw a chance to move towards some actually gambling discussion and tried to move in that direction.

    I also would love to know more of the details about Shackleford's relationship with Venetian. But I don't think that is going to happen. I am not defending or kissing Mike's ass as some will immediately jump to, but is it possible it ended for much different reasons than everyone is just assuming? Maybe they wanted him to do something he just wasn't comfortable with?

  3. #83
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    By the way Eliot, welcome and hopefully you are enjoying retirement. Not getting into the debate about what you do or did, but I will say you were always a courteous poster at WoV. I also understand not everything sees it that way. But we never will know exactly what Mike did for the Venetian either. Or who else has done what.
    Thanks for the welcome. Yeah, being courteous ... the good old days, right?

  4. #84
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    If you possess a time machine (and a guy like you just might) and can travel back to the 1980's with different (better) games and conditions, yeah, higher counts and more index plays would matter and be worth the effort.
    Schlesinger's article on the I-18 was published in September 1986, (Blackjack Forum Vol. VI #3), so yes, exactly, Schlesinger published his article exactly when more indices were worth the effort.

  5. #85
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    If you possess a time machine (and a guy like you just might) and can travel back to the 1980's with different (better) games and conditions, yeah, higher counts and more index plays would matter and be worth the effort.
    Schlesinger's article on the I-18 was published in September 1986, (Blackjack Forum Vol. VI #3), so yes, exactly, Schlesinger published his article exactly when more indices were worth the effort.
    But you are arguing about it now. It is 2020.

  6. #86
    When I moved to Las Vegas, just over a decade ago (2009), I developed a game plan and plan of attack based on the conditions at that time and the location I was playing (many games in close proximity). It was far different than my style of play in Atlantic City which didn't work out that well. It took into account things learned from that experience but even more so the new conditions available to me and how to best take advantage of that.

    And now, you know what? It is 2009 all over again for me. Blackjack conditions, the way the game is played and how best to attack it are all going to change again because of this unforeseen event. Next week, I will be going back to a very different set of circumstances. I already know there are some aspects to my game that just aren't going to be available any longer. And I think, don't know for sure until I see just what is what, but I think there may be some new opportunities to explore.

    That is what this is all about for me. Just like Las Vegas is said to re-invent itself every few years, I am going to need to re-invent myself to some extent. Blackjack is about the math, but it is simple math and doesn't change much. Winning consistently and for a long period of time is not about the math, but rather how you apply it. I know that is probably not very exciting or stimulation for you math academics types, but that is the way it is. I am trying and starting to get excited about the possible new opportunities and ways to apply the math.

    So you are arguing about something from 1986 based on 1986 conditions?

  7. #87
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Eliot, I like to tell you something about your criticism on this board of Don Schlesinger. According to you Don S doesn't display enough netiquette towards other people. You also do not like his stance regarding index plays beyond the I18. Well, I will say one thing that Don S does not do, is continue to carry on like you are in an active thread that is now 80 posts where the other person involved in the subject matter is not even a member here and subsequently a non-participant. What does that say about you sir?
    Bosox, who appointed you forum police? Youíve now gone from being form detective to forum police.

    Personally, Iíve found this debate interesting. Iím sure Don is reading this thread, so heís free to join in, if he wants to. There is no cost in joining.

    And who cares if this thread is going on for 80 or 180 posts? You arenít the forum moderator here. There are a lot of threads that go on much longer than 80 posts. Why does that bother you?

    Btw, no one tried to shut down you and Cooking with Cardís back and forth over on BJTF about who knows what.

  8. #88
    What do you call a weasal that hides behind a fictitious username and anti-doxxing rules to defame/smear/impugn someone that uses their real name. I call him KJ THE WEASAL!!!
    KJ fudge packs maxpen up the ass 3 times a day.

  9. #89
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    But you are arguing about it now. It is 2020.
    Yes, exactly, this is why I have been advocating since at least 2010 that AP's play anything but blackjack. In case you haven't read my take down of blackjack card counting:

    https://www.888casino.com/blog/seven...er-count-cards

    One could argue that the I-18 is actually harmful to young aspiring APs, as opposed to simply being a tool of the intellectually lazy, as it was in the 1980's and 1990's. By giving young APs the idea that card counting is a viable path towards a professional career as an AP, the I-18 is setting these AP's up to get caught. Once busted, their career using more lucrative and easier methods will be much more challenging. In other words, I-18 is a great tool for surveillance, but has negative value for the AP.

    I would never advise a new, smart and motivated AP to choose that path when there are so many other more modern methods available to them. 1960's technology with a 1980's tool just doesn't work in 2020. Anyone who wants to be an AP should start first by learning about a lot of different methods, then chose the one that works best for their particular goals and lifestyle. Lead with education. There are just too many good choices, but ordinary blackjack card counting isn't one of them.

    BTW, my post count is limited here, probably because I am new, to six posts a day in this forum. Not sure how long that will last.
    Last edited by Eliot; 05-27-2020 at 01:53 PM.

  10. #90
    If you're in the right location, machine play is much more lucrative than straight count games.

  11. #91
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Yes, exactly, this is why I have been advocating since at least 2010 that AP's play anything but blackjack. In case you haven't read my take down of blackjack card counting:

    https://www.888casino.com/blog/seven...er-count-cards

    One could argue that the I-18 is actually harmful to young aspiring APs, as opposed to simply being a tool of the intellectually lazy, as it was in the 1980's and 1990's. By giving young APs the idea that card counting is a viable path towards a professional career as an AP, the I-18 is setting these AP's up to get caught. Once busted, their career using more lucrative and easier methods will be much more challenging. In other words, I-18 is a great tool for surveillance, but has negative value for the AP.

    I would never advise a new, smart and motivated AP to choose that path when there are so many other more modern methods available to them. 1960's technology with a 1980's tool just doesn't work in 2020. Anyone who wants to be an AP should start first by learning about a lot of different methods, then chose the one that works best for their particular goals and lifestyle. Lead with education. There are just too many good choices, but ordinary blackjack card counting isn't one of them.

    BTW, my post count is limited here, probably because I am new, to six posts a day in this forum. Not sure how long that will last.[/url]

    One could argue that the I-18 is actually harmful to young aspiring APs, as opposed to simply being a tool of the intellectually lazy, as it was in the 1980's and 1990's. By giving young APs the idea that card counting is a viable path towards a professional career as an AP, the I-18 is setting these AP's up to get caught. Once busted, their career using more lucrative and easier methods will be much more challenging. In other words, I-18 is a great tool for surveillance, but has negative value for the AP.

    I would never advise a new, smart and motivated AP to choose that path when there are so many other more modern methods available to them. 1960's technology with a 1980's tool just doesn't work in 2020. Anyone who wants to be an AP should start first by learning about a lot of different methods, then chose the one that works best for their particular goals and lifestyle. Lead with education. There are just too many good choices, but ordinary blackjack card counting isn't one of them.

    BTW, my post count is limited here, probably because I am new, to six posts a day in this forum. Not sure how long that will last.
    Eliot, since I'm bored and don't have much to do tonight, I'm going to add my two cents worth to this discussion. I actually agree with Kj on this one. I've been playing on and off for 25 years, and I'm definitely no expert, but I've seen some things having lived on the East Coast and South during these years. I'm mostly a low level hobbyist counter so I'm not much threat to casinos but I've been backed off a couple times. I mostly play as an diversion from work, and I enjoy the camaraderie at my local casinos, but I still want to play a winning game.

    I found Don's I18 very helpful. I never saw it as him saying this is all you should learn either. It was more like this is where you can get your best bang for your buck type of thing. And I think that's where most card counters are at. I know about 100 indexes, but it doesn't take long to see I only use about 10 to 20, so the other ones I know are more an academic exercise.

    Personally, I think it's also important to learn the EOR (effect of removal) value of each card since this tells me how strong my count is when I'm at some positive number. I'm surprised this isn't discussed more in bj books. I get this only really matters for single and double deck games, but that's mostly all I play. I use hi low and my knowledge of EOR for betting purposes and making playing decisions. I don't have a photographic memory or anything, but I know if I've seen more 2 and 3s vs 5 and 6s for example, and this comes into my betting and playing decisions. So I kind of have a hybrid approach that works well for me.

    One of my favorite chapters in your book, The Blackjack Zone is "The True Cost of Making a Mistake", where you basically say it's not that important if you make a mistake here and there. I'm sorry if I messed up summarizing the chapter, but I think you were basically saying you can still have a winning game and make some mistakes. As you know, this goes against almost everything you hear from the so-called bj pros, which is why I liked this chapter. But doesn't what you say in this chapter somewhat support that you don't need to know all the indexes, which somewhat lines up with Don's I18, because learning fewer indexes is kind of like making mistakes with the indexes you don't know. Anyway not a big deal.

    As far as casinos not sweating card counters, I'm of the mindset that if I was a casino it's better to error on the side of backing them off then letting them play. I get they aren't the biggest danger to a casino but you get too many in a casino hammering away day and night and they will do some damage. And this is what these young kids will do if they aren't backed off. They have no other life. That's what BJA teaches on their forum and in their classes. Keep hammering away till you get backed off. That's why if I was a casino I'd back them off early, rather than later.

    I mean the Church Team claims to have won over $3 million so it took some money from casinos. If the casinos hadn't backed them off, they would have stayed in one spot, camping out and taking money from only a couple casinos. I can't see how this would help any casino's bottom line.

    Here's my other angle about backing off counters, even if they are a losing counter. In the long run, this will probably make the casinos more money. Why? Because now the counter thinks he has a winning game, and he'll play more. I remember the first time I was backed off, I was proud of it because I saw it as the casino telling me I had a winning game. This made me want to play more, and I did.

    When I was on BJA forum, you'd see this story told over and over again by new counters. Everyone of them was proud of their first backoff, and they said it made them want to play more since it indicated they had a winning game. So you could make a strong argument that every casino should back off marginal counters (and I'm talking only about the stereo-typical type counters - white, young, looks nerdy, wears a hat, you know the type).

    There is no downside to backing them off: if they have a winning game, you got them out of your casino, and if they have a losing game, you just made them more profitable for casinos, because they will be playing more.

    The other advantage for casinos backing off counters is casinos then get a reputation for being "sweaty", so counters stay away. This isn't the target customer for casinos anyway. So if I was a casino I'd want to be known as "sweaty".

    And lastly backing off counters keeps counter's spread in check. I know I have a fairly conservative spread, and it's mostly so I don't get backed off. If a casino gets the reputation they don't back off counters, word gets out and the counters descend on that casino like locusts during a plague. I've seen it before. You got to back off counters every once a while just to keep them in check. Lol.

    To be honest with you, I don't see any downside in backing off counters for a casino. Now I'm mostly referring to the stereotype counters, the white, loner, travelling counters, who have no life. Most of these I can spot before they sit down on the tables. I'd let them play a couple hands before I'd back them off, but if i was in charge, I for sure would be backing them off.

    If I ever start consulting for my local casinos I'm going to recommend backing off counters - even marginal ones - soon and often. I've talked to some pit bosses at my local casino and they tell they have been doing this. I always tell them, good, maybe these kids will go back home and get a real job and contribute to society. The pit bosses at my local casino kind of know I count but they don't know how much I'm winning, so they let me play. I've got a couple tricks that more or less go against AP orthodox, but it works for me so I do it.

    Enough for now. It's good to see you on this forum. You can't take anything too seriously here. Bosox thinks he's the policeman here, but nobody around here pays too much attention to him. He carries more weight on other forums, where he has some of his buddies backing him up.

    This forum is fun if you have a thick skin. And I have learned a lot from it, and I think you'll find this is one of the better run forums. But if you want the moderator to step in and help you out, it's not going to happen here. This is more like the Wild Wild West.
    Last edited by Bob21; 05-27-2020 at 07:05 PM.

  12. #92
    I had some fun today going over this thread, reading about Eliot's background, his history in the gaming industry, the work he has put out, and those that hold some animosity toward him. It looks like the animosity comes down to things Eliot did like seminars and books. They don't like that he put that kind of information out there.

    Now, one of the things that KJ says is Eliot did what he did because he was a failed AP and did it to spite all successful AP's. First, was Eliot really a "failed AP?" Well, he learned AP but did that mean he intended to give up a pretty good career to become something like KJ? If you look at the respective careers of Eliot and KJ do you really think Eliot would want to trade his career in to become a KJ?

    My uncle is a PHD. He was President of Chattahoochee Technical College for 22 years. So he retires to the Mississippi Coast and he and his wife like to visit casinos. He finds out I'm an AP and asks some questions. I was like "Uncle, just have fun with it and don't get to involved. As AP goes a man of your stature doesn't want to get that tarnish on his chrome finish."

    There are to many examples of academics studying and publishing tactics on advantage play but not taking the vocation up themselves and moving on to something else.

    This is my take on "spiteful." One of the favorite tactics of the spitefull is to call someone they don't like spitefull. It is obvious here that KJ is the one that is filled with spite.

    Advantage play has worked out pretty good for guys like KJ and me. Look at our backgrounds. Neither one of us had anything on the ball before AP. But a guy like Eliot, dude is all degree'd up. A PHD for Christ sake. A guy like that has a hell of a lot more options than just AP. AP is actually a step down.
    KJ fudge packs maxpen up the ass 3 times a day.

  13. #93
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    I had some fun today going over this thread, reading about Eliot's background, his history in the gaming industry, the work he has put out, and those that hold some animosity toward him. It looks like the animosity comes down to things Eliot did like seminars and books. They don't like that he put that kind of information out there.

    Now, one of the things that KJ says is Eliot did what he did because he was a failed AP and did it to spite all successful AP's. First, was Eliot really a "failed AP?" Well, he learned AP but did that mean he intended to give up a pretty good career to become something like KJ? If you look at the respective careers of Eliot and KJ do you really think Eliot would want to trade his career in to become a KJ?

    My uncle is a PHD. He was President of Chattahoochee Technical College for 22 years. So he retires to the Mississippi Coast and he and his wife like to visit casinos. He finds out I'm an AP and asks some questions. I was like "Uncle, just have fun with it and don't get to involved. As AP goes a man of your stature doesn't want to get that tarnish on his chrome finish."

    There are to many examples of academics studying and publishing tactics on advantage play but not taking the vocation up themselves and moving on to something else.

    This is my take on "spiteful." One of the favorite tactics of the spitefull is to call someone they don't like spitefull. It is obvious here that KJ is the one that is filled with spite.

    Advantage play has worked out pretty good for guys like KJ and me. Look at our backgrounds. Neither one of us had anything on the ball before AP. But a guy like Eliot, dude is all degree'd up. A PHD for Christ sake. A guy like that has a hell of a lot more options than just AP. AP is actually a step down.
    Who hacked mickeycrimm's account???
    That's a violation!!

  14. #94
    Originally Posted by monet View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    I had some fun today going over this thread, reading about Eliot's background, his history in the gaming industry, the work he has put out, and those that hold some animosity toward him. It looks like the animosity comes down to things Eliot did like seminars and books. They don't like that he put that kind of information out there.

    Now, one of the things that KJ says is Eliot did what he did because he was a failed AP and did it to spite all successful AP's. First, was Eliot really a "failed AP?" Well, he learned AP but did that mean he intended to give up a pretty good career to become something like KJ? If you look at the respective careers of Eliot and KJ do you really think Eliot would want to trade his career in to become a KJ?

    My uncle is a PHD. He was President of Chattahoochee Technical College for 22 years. So he retires to the Mississippi Coast and he and his wife like to visit casinos. He finds out I'm an AP and asks some questions. I was like "Uncle, just have fun with it and don't get to involved. As AP goes a man of your stature doesn't want to get that tarnish on his chrome finish."

    There are to many examples of academics studying and publishing tactics on advantage play but not taking the vocation up themselves and moving on to something else.

    This is my take on "spiteful." One of the favorite tactics of the spitefull is to call someone they don't like spitefull. It is obvious here that KJ is the one that is filled with spite.

    Advantage play has worked out pretty good for guys like KJ and me. Look at our backgrounds. Neither one of us had anything on the ball before AP. But a guy like Eliot, dude is all degree'd up. A PHD for Christ sake. A guy like that has a hell of a lot more options than just AP. AP is actually a step down.
    Who hacked mickeycrimm's account???
    That's a violation!!
    Man Servant Mickey is just looking for a new man to serve. Since his last one got cut to pieces.

  15. #95
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Advantage play has worked out pretty good for guys like KJ and me. Look at our backgrounds. Neither one of us had anything on the ball before AP. But a guy like Eliot, dude is all degree'd up. A PHD for Christ sake. A guy like that has a hell of a lot more options than just AP. AP is actually a step down.
    Mickey, many APs put forward false idea that people desperately want to be APs, that it is somehow a pinnacle career that should be aspired to. Thanks for your perspective.

    I have a question. Did you ever play the Class-2 Bingo slots in Alabama? Around 2007-2012? I designed the math models for many of those. We knew about they could be crushed by smart players and I'm just wondering if you were one of those.
    --------------------------------------------
    Eliot Jacobson ~ www.ijmp.org

  16. #96
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    One of my favorite chapters in your book, The Blackjack Zone is "The True Cost of Making a Mistake", where you basically say it's not that important if you make a mistake here and there. I'm sorry if I messed up summarizing the chapter, but I think you were basically saying you can still have a winning game and make some mistakes. As you know, this goes against almost everything you hear from the so-called bj pros, which is why I liked this chapter. But doesn't what you say in this chapter somewhat support that you don't need to know all the indexes, which somewhat lines up with Don's I18, because learning fewer indexes is kind of like making mistakes with the indexes you don't know. Anyway not a big deal..
    I completely disagree. Mistakes have one-time fixed costs. Making a choice to learn less has a lifetime cost. APs get all over folks who make small errors, but then side with those who promote knowing less. This is the exact opposite of how I think about the game. Mistakes will happen, but we should all learn as much as we can and keep on learning.

    Don could have written something like, The I-18 is a good starting point. Don't card count in a casino knowing fewer indices that this. But, the I-18 is just a starting point. I encourage you to learn more.That is nearly the opposite of what he said:

    "...if you have just mastered true count and were about to embark upon your study of the index-number matrix, I have saved you a great deal of work. Learn the plays in the chart and forget about the rest. You can trust me that you won’t be missing much."

    Here is what Grosjean wrote about the I-18 in CAA:

    " ... the counter cannot afford to just 'throw away' indices and money. Let's try to improve our perspective. In grade school, if you scored 100 on a quiz, your parents were satisfied. What if you came home and told them you got a 90, or a 75? In my high school, 75 was nearly a failing grade, and 90 was only a B. Some of us probably would have run away from home before showing our parents a quiz score of 85 ..."

    Just as a point of reference, the phrase "you can trust me" is the opposite of what an intellectual should do when he pursues the study of a new subject. A good student doubts everything.
    Last edited by Eliot; 05-28-2020 at 08:30 AM.
    --------------------------------------------
    Eliot Jacobson ~ www.ijmp.org

  17. #97
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Mickey, many APs put forward false idea that people desperately want to be APs, that it is somehow a pinnacle career that should be aspired to.
    Nobody grows up wanting to be a Professional AP.
    Some of us, in our youth, had this aspiration of being a professional gambler.
    James Bond type or something similar in the world of gambling.
    Eddie Felson, Minnesota Fats, Bert Gordon, Eric "Cincinnati Kid" Stoner... etc etc.

    If you aren't brought up in the life like say, Todd Brunson, you have to learn the life.
    Either through books, programs, or other means.
    What happens is most people become Professional Scamblers.
    They like to call it grey or point out that it's not illegal but its basically one scam to the next.
    Are they Tier Matching or what is the current promotion that we can exploit??
    Is this machine overpaying or does it have upside down payouts?
    What dealer is weak??
    And we all pretty much follow each other with a monkey see, monkey do attitude.
    Copy Cat League like any other profession in life.

  18. #98
    Is anybody else looking forward to June 4th, if for no other reason than much lower volume of posts from Kewl?

  19. #99
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Advantage play has worked out pretty good for guys like KJ and me. Look at our backgrounds. Neither one of us had anything on the ball before AP. But a guy like Eliot, dude is all degree'd up. A PHD for Christ sake. A guy like that has a hell of a lot more options than just AP. AP is actually a step down.
    Mickey, many APs put forward false idea that people desperately want to be APs, that it is somehow a pinnacle career that should be aspired to. Thanks for your perspective.
    Eliot, I am not looking for an ongoing feud with you. I said what I had to say. But I will just add that with the help of mickey here, you seem to be trying to re-write history. Your posts from cardcounter.com are still there and it is pretty clear what you intention and goals were at the time. One of the beauties of the internet or horrors for anyone trying to re-write is that these things live forever.

    I am not going to go searching through cardcounter.com so as to embarrass you, but I do want to reference your post from Blackjackinfo in may 2006 when you announced your retirement from advantage play and the formation of your new company for the purpose of "mainly consulting with game developers". That is quite a difference with what ended up happening with you giving seminars to casinos on how to stop advantage players, isn't it?

    While technically game developers would be considered the "other" side, no one would have had a problem with that as many do that.

  20. #100
    In fairness, I will say that most of my knowledge of Eliot and his journey is second hand, as I began participating on the forums just about the time he "retired" from AP. So I ONLY knew him as a guy working for the "dark" side and as an AP, I don't care for that. And second hand info is never a good thing. But there were so many different very reliable players and members that all had the same opinion and told the same story, including players I have networked with for years, that it is hard for me to discount that because Eliot now says otherwise.

    But this is not my fight and I am not looking for a fight, so I am going to let this one go.

    Peace to you Eliot.

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