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Thread: Eliot and Don Feud

  1. #21
    Boy, I'm glad I know nothing about this stuff other than what I read. That way I can't make stuff up.

    So, in the post above, what can be gleaned? The number of APs that he "knew or knew of" from his AP days, that he did NOT sell out or identify undoubtedly is hugely outnumbered by all other, presumably mostly younger APs who by his own words appear to have been fair game to being identified.

    "From my AP days" appears to be a very large part of the definition here. May as well just put some dates on that, just in case those dates were short and the rest of the time (when folks were fair game) happened to be long.

    The idea that writing a book about AP plays that not many APs knew about resulted in helping APs more than casinos seems like a curious idea. Kind of like the idea that Ferguson publicly spelling out "Wong" teasers somehow helped sports bettors. Dumb. Not helpful.

    And no, kewlJ kind of said you DID NOT sell out for financial gain. That was half of his point. I have the ability to read. You just confirmed what he said with the early retirement/nice house comments.

    This ability to read is like a super power. I should give seminars.

    KewlJ will be on this like a dog with a bone. Good luck with the jibber jabber.

  2. #22
    First of all, let me return the shoutout to Boz that he gave me and thank him for it! I also think someone remarked to the extent of me being reasonably good at gambling math, but that might have also been Boz, so thank you for that to whomever it was.

    My lying eyes, an actually interesting gambling topic at VCT AND then Eliot also makes an appearance? Awesome! I'll take it. I figured this site would be too busy identifying specific steering wheel characteristics of RV's for that to ever happen again...so good to see some decent gambling stuff.

    Okay, so let's get into some stuff:

    Eliot, Generally:

    I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that I unconditionally defend Mr. Jacobsen in this respect, but it's certainly fully within his right to do whatever he wants to do, in that regard.

    I see the word, "Traitor," first thing? I ask this: A traitor to fucking what? The brotherhood of love, acceptance and goodwill towards men that is the AP Community? Fucking please. It's like anything else, you've got good guys and you've got bad guys...but in gambling, let's face it, is there anyone who doesn't expect someone to not have his mind on his money and money on his mind? Excluding totally apathetic useless fucks like me, of course. But, that's not out of some great moral motivation and I'm not going to pretend for a second it is...I just am too dispassionate about life to give a shit, most days.

    Oh my God, we've got Benedict fucking Arnold up in this mothafucka, a betrayer of God, country and man! Again, please. Half of the AP's would slit they Momma throat for a nickel, by their own admission. Any so-called loyalty or friendship is either by convenience, necessity or people potentially having a use for you in the future. I don't fool myself into thinking that anyone ACTUALLY likes me. Why the fuck would they? Maybe someone will have a math question sometime down the line they think I can figure out (or get close) really quickly. I'm pretty easy to get ahold of, relatively speaking. I'll at least get you close while you wait for someone even more skilled than I am to respond, you know? Allegiances make sense, but there came a time when Eliot's allegiance no longer made sense for him.

    So, Eliot did what Eliot thought was best for Eliot...as if any of you wouldn't do the same. Come on.

    Yeah, Eliot worked and did seminars for the Dark Side...I guess the Dark Side pays better for his services than would APs. I wouldn't personally work for the casinos, even if offered, but I don't fault anyone who does.

    And, take all of this with a grain of salt, of course. I'm a low value hustler who has made at least as much from writing (in less time) than from gambling. I'm not going to get into any specific numbers, but I do promise nobody would be impressed.

    Card Counter Stuff

    I don't know that Eliot ever directly advocated to just let the card counters have it, honestly, probably not the best career choice in his line of work. With that said, I personally vouch for the fact that I have read Eliot's stuff and, on no fewer than a dozen occasions, Eliot basically said something to the extent that they are no real threat. In fact, in disclosing the value of other advantage plays, Eliot would often use card counting expected profits as a metric to compare other plays against.

    He would specifically say that, from a game protection standpoint, time and resources being used to protect the house from card counting would be better used elsewhere. He analyzed and revealed the potential lucrativeness of at least one game before it had even come out. He made it clear that the biggest financial risk to the table games pit, financially, was the table games pit itself because of their flawed operations. I won't use any specific words here, but we all know what I'm talking about. Well, most of us.

    AP History

    Also, it's not like Eliot has ever said he was a great advantage player. He admitted, on multiple occasions, to essentially not be a successful AP. The most lucrative play he ever had was getting assaulted, again, basically by his own admission.

    ---And, hey, does anyone want to pay me six figures to take a shot at old Mission? I'll take the money. Maybe I'll get lucky one day and security will kick the shit out of me, god knows I tried last time I was 86'ed, didn't work.

    Don't get me wrong, I totally get why APs would be royally pissed off at him. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being pissed off at him; there's not. I'm just saying it's not like we're some kind of fucking commune who devote our lives to the mutual benefit and protection of one another. If anyone in the AP community so much as speaks to me, I assume it's because I might be useful, at some point.

    That doesn't mean we can't play nice. It doesn't mean that we can't all hang out and be buddies. It just means that there are no real friends in the community, but again, that's no big deal.

    I mean, you see it with MaxPen and MickeyCrimm going at each other. MaxPen basically just does a variant of what MickeyCrimm used to do, to the best of my understanding based on what little MP has said. That's the gambling community, folks. This forum is the gambling community. I think this is actually a more accurate portrayal, in some ways, than is the WoV forum.

    So...if there's more to gain on the other side, why in the fuck would Eliot even want to be associated with us?

    Backoffs and the Like

    I mean, it is what it is and there's a whole white-gray-black spectrum. There are some AP plays that are milky white, blackjack card counting, vulturing (not creating, straight vulturing) and any number of other things. There are gray plays, and I'll not get into specifics...but the plays sometimes involve violating the Terms & Conditions that you either technically agreed to or know about. Okay. So, you're representing that you're going to do that and then you proceed not to do that. Basically fraud, but not in the legal sense, but hey, we all know the casinos are no angels, either.

    Anyway, you have free association. The casinos say, "We don't want you here because you do x," and then you can make an argument whether or not the casinos are REASONABLE in that backoff, trespass, whatever. You can't make an argument that they don't have the right to do it, because barring perhaps a few state laws I might not be aware of, they most certainly do. The other side of the free association is, if I walk into a casino and don't see anything that can be beaten, then I choose to leave and not visit it anymore.

    This is not some great moral struggle. It's not Light v. Dark or Good v. Evil, Young Padawan. It's just all parties involved looking out for their best interest.......and sometimes the occasional overzealous assclown from security.

    As far as card counting, they could tighten the damn spreads if they wanted to, but they don't want to. Why? No idea. You've got some mostly empty table that's one of four mostly empty tables in the house that day and you need it to have a spread of minimum-50x minimum? Nobody ever accused them of being smart.

    MickeyCrimm says:

    I should also point out that some AP's are hellbent to ruin the reputations of system players like Rob Singer. They should actually be promoting the Singer's of the gambling world as they pass on what AP's consider to be bogus information which can blunt the competition.
    As much as I hate to disagree with MickeyCrimm, I don't think that anyone should promote misinformation. It's one thing not to actively try to disprove misinformation, nobody has any great automatic responsibility to do that, but I certainly wouldn't promote it.

    Yes, without the casinos winning money, APs cannot win money. I agree with that 100%. After all, to have an AP, first you have to have a casino.

    But, it doesn't mean that we should do anything to actively cause civilians to have false beliefs about gambling, systems, voodoo, rabbit's feet...whatever. For my part, I counter people promoting systems on WoV when I feel like it, will not knowingly lie to anyone in-person about anything gambling-related (though I will withhold good information or dodge questions) and generally just try not to interfere in anyway with other casino-goers.

    It's not like casinos are the be all and end all of all of existence. If nobody else ever gambles again from this moment on, I'll just go do something else for money.

    But, again, it's easy for me to say because I don't really care about lifestyle or too much in the way of material stuff. I might be more like some other people, and I don't mean that in a bad way, if I did.

    CONCLUSION:

    Anyway, that's my sort of defense of Eliot and positions on some other matters. I look forward to continuing the conversation with you guys. It is nice to see a thread over here that is not on its face absurd.
    Last edited by Mission146; 05-25-2020 at 10:51 AM.

  3. #23
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    My first casino client was in 2004 when Mike wrote to me and asked if I wanted some extra work as a gaming mathematician. Then in 2005, CDC consulting hired me to do market research projects for various clients. I believe the first casino client I had was PENN in 2005. A team of us did some secret shopping to compare various casinos in the midwest for what they were giving away in comps.

    My first book was on card counting, in 2005. My second book was on designing table games, in 2010. My third book was a compilation of blog posts from 2011 to 2013, that came out in 2015. You are right that the casino industry didn't know about a lot of this stuff, but neither did most AP's. Now they do. Mission accomplished.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Eliot explained step by step how all these different plays worked and the advantage. And he didn't even get paid for that. He gave that information away to the dark side for free (well the cost of his book). It was a pretty clear cut case of spite for those that were succeeding where he failed.
    I have never been food driven. Getting paid is meaningless to me. I live in a beautiful house in Santa Barbara and I retired at age 59. Get it? Giving away information is a lesson that Bill Zender taught me. Be generous, he said. And, what I learned was that people would hire me to explain the stuff I was giving away for free.

    It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.
    I never, not once in my life, gave up an AP player or team that I knew from my AP days, or helped identify a single person I knew from my AP days. I swore a promise to my AP friends to never do that and I never broke that promise. This is the kind of lie that once started gains momentum, as it seems to be able justify everything someone wants to say about me.

    Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain.
    There you go again, thinking I sold out for financial gain. Did you forget I was a professor/lecturer at UCSB? The Computer Science department treated me very well. If it was financial gain I was interested in, I would have kept that job. I left even though I was effectively tenured.

    As I stated on BJTF, I was Phil Ivey's expert in his case AGAINST Crockford's Casino. I was the expert for the State of Florida in their case AGAINST the Seminole Tribe. I've busted major online casino corporations for cheating when I owned an ran the auditing company "Certified Fair Gambling." I was involved in bringing down a casino that was engaged in money-laundering. I've stressed in every seminar I have ever given on the subject that card counters are not a threat to casinos and should be ignored.

    What is true, KJ, is that you don't know anything about me or what I've done professionally, or my motivations. You make stuff up, as do most people, and then attach the word traitor to it as if that's all you need to say to justfify the BS. Generalizations are easy, but if you're going to attack, don't take every third-hand rumor as truth. Show the good grace of doing some fact checking first, that is what you would expect if it went the other way, right?

    I did very well as a consultant, but only because I burned bridges anytime I saw unethical behavior. Read this:

    https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/aft...n-from-gaming/

    Now, I volunteer. As a cop, at the local public TV station, at the Zoo. And, sadly, in these pandemic days, I spend a lot of time reading these forums, hopefully that will end soon.

    Meanwhile, what have you done?
    What have I done? I have supported myself for 16 years now from advantage play. Something you failed at.

    I am vacation this week (your neck of the woods to do some surfing) and only have my phone so I am not going to get into this too much now, but short and sweet: anyone who sets out to be an AP, making money from the casinos, fails, and then spends the next 10-15 years educating the casinos to protect themselves from advantage players....is a traitor in my book.

    I'll have more to say end of the week. In the meantime happy Memorial day to everyone. Be safe.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  4. #24
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Boy, I'm glad I know nothing about this stuff other than what I read. That way I can't make stuff up.

    So, in the post above, what can be gleaned? The number of APs that he "knew or knew of" from his AP days, that he did NOT sell out or identify undoubtedly is hugely outnumbered by all other, presumably mostly younger APs who by his own words appear to have been fair game to being identified.

    "From my AP days" appears to be a very large part of the definition here. May as well just put some dates on that, just in case those dates were short and the rest of the time (when folks were fair game) happened to be long.

    The idea that writing a book about AP plays that not many APs knew about resulted in helping APs more than casinos seems like a curious idea. Kind of like the idea that Ferguson publicly spelling out "Wong" teasers somehow helped sports bettors. Dumb. Not helpful.

    And no, kewlJ kind of said you DID NOT sell out for financial gain. That was half of his point. I have the ability to read. You just confirmed what he said with the early retirement/nice house comments.

    This ability to read is like a super power. I should give seminars.

    KewlJ will be on this like a dog with a bone. Good luck with the jibber jabber.
    Redietz, as usual your post made no sense. I think what you’re struggling to understand is we live in a free country and people can work on either side to make money. This has nothing to do with being a “traitor”. We aren’t at war with anybody.

    If there is a so called “dark side”, I view it as the AP side. I mean which side has to disguise who they are and what they are doing? It’s not the casino side, or their employees.

    And everybody knows all the games in a casino are negative EV, so the public isn’t being fooled by the casinos. Everybody knows “The House Always Wins” in the long run. People still go to casinos because it’s fun; it’s entertainment. Same reason they go to movies and ballgames. These are negative EV events too since people come out with less money.

    Casinos are a unique business, since they can only come into a community with the support of the people, usually through a vote. They are voted in because the general public likes them (mostly for entertainment purposes) and to generate tax revenue for the local community.

    An AP obviously defeats the whole purpose of why state and local governments allow casinos to operate. So that is another reason I’m saying the APs are on the “dark side”, if there is such a thing. They are taking from small local communities, without contributing anything. And what I’m saying is true for Indian casinos too. They have to be voted in also by the public.

    One thing I disagree with Eliot is about counters not posing a threat to casinos bottom line. That’s probably true before Blackjack Apprenticeship started and for larger casinos, but I don’t think it’s true any longer, or for smaller casinos. I get that everything BJA teachs can be found in any book, but their internet site has attacted people into counting that wouldn’t have been interested before. And they do a good job with their material, so the people they train are good counters.

    Again, I don’t hold anything against Colin Jones and BJA for doing this. It’s a free country and he found a way to tap into a market that hadn’t been fully exploited. He’s obviously doing well since his two day bootcamps have gone from $2,000 to $3,000 a head and they are full.

    In my local area, I see more and more of these counters floating through, and they have some serious spreads. And I believe they do take a bite out of the casinos in my area, but I can see the casinos are getting smarter, and backing them off sooner.

    Again, the communities approved these casinos for locals to play the games for fun and for revenue, not for vulture APs to sweep in a take money.

    Don’t get me wrong here. I don’t blame these travelling counters (mostly young adults) since what they are doing is legal, but it’s not the reason these local communities brought in casinos.

    Call me a hypocrite if you like, since I’m doing the same thing. But I do have a real job contributing to society and I never take much from my local casinos. Yes, its to stay under detection threashold, but it’s also because I feel a little guilty extracting money from them. I know if everybody did what I did these casinos wouldn’t be around.

    Long story short, if Eliot has helped casinos identify APs than I think that’s great. That means there are fewer APs, which is better for me. Yes, I have a selfish motive. But I also think it’s good for these kids in the long run. Maybe they will find a real job, and contribute to society.

    And if Eliot is exposing AP plays that casino and most APs didn’t know about that is great too. Both sides now have the knowledge and they can do with it what they want.

    I mean everybody knows about card counting for over 50 years, and it’s still going on, so I’m sure the same thing is going on with some of these other plays.

    A “traitor” is very poor choice of words to describe Eliot, so everybody should stop that. But I know APs like Kj like to use extreme words to describe people, so he probably won’t stop.

  5. #25
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    Maybe some folks saw it over at BJTF. Don calling Eliot really nasty names. If anyone else did it it would be grounds for a suspension by Norm.

    Anyway is Eliot really the traitor Don makes him out to be? Eliot never has tried to hide the fact that he worked on the casino side. What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?
    Are you kidding me with this shit? Absolutely Eliot (teliot at WoV) is a traitor!

    Eliot is a brilliant gambling math guy. I suppose math in general, but for our purposes gambling math. And he attempted to support himself from advantage play, in particular card counting as this was a number of years ago before the table game explosion AP opportunities. And he failed. It is my understanding he failed because he couldn't handle the swings and variance, not having anything to do with math. Just goes to show it takes more than a little math to be successful.

    Anyway, when he failed he started working for the dark side. And you know what, you are right. There is nothing wrong with that, to some extent. Wong did it. Mike did it. Revere certainly did it.

    But eliot took it to an extreme. He formed his own company and without even having any casino clients he wrote a book exposing all the advantage plays that he could think of in great detail. Newer things the casino industry was just starting to know existed, but didn't know about. Eliot explained step by step how all these different plays worked and the advantage. And he didn't even get paid for that. He gave that information away to the dark side for free (well the cost of his book). It was a pretty clear cut case of spite for those that were succeeding where he failed.

    Later he started doing seminars for the casino industry for pay. AP's weren't even allowed in, although a pretty good number got in. It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

    Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain. He is the very definition of the word traitor. He earned it and he deserves all the crap he gets for the rest of his life.
    KJocchio is a mind reader so knows Eliot published advantage plays to spite pros. What an idiot. Once again KJocchio makes up shit out of thin air to spite someone. And while he lets others off the hook for working the darkside for some reason he wants to pick on Elliot. If I was Eliot I would track KJocchio down and bitch slap him a hundred times.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  6. #26
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Boy, I'm glad I know nothing about this stuff other than what I read. That way I can't make stuff up.

    So, in the post above, what can be gleaned? The number of APs that he "knew or knew of" from his AP days, that he did NOT sell out or identify undoubtedly is hugely outnumbered by all other, presumably mostly younger APs who by his own words appear to have been fair game to being identified.

    "From my AP days" appears to be a very large part of the definition here. May as well just put some dates on that, just in case those dates were short and the rest of the time (when folks were fair game) happened to be long.

    The idea that writing a book about AP plays that not many APs knew about resulted in helping APs more than casinos seems like a curious idea. Kind of like the idea that Ferguson publicly spelling out "Wong" teasers somehow helped sports bettors. Dumb. Not helpful.

    And no, kewlJ kind of said you DID NOT sell out for financial gain. That was half of his point. I have the ability to read. You just confirmed what he said with the early retirement/nice house comments.

    This ability to read is like a super power. I should give seminars.

    KewlJ will be on this like a dog with a bone. Good luck with the jibber jabber.
    Dude, you don't even know that James Grosjean published a book before Eliot called Beyond Counting. The book is now a collector's item. Eliot's book is similar. Yet, no one ever called Grosjean a traitor. It's called a double standard. You really should think before you take KJocchio's side of things.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  7. #27
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post
    First of all, let me return the shoutout to Boz that he gave me and thank him for it! I also think someone remarked to the extent of me being reasonably good at gambling math, but that might have also been Boz, so thank you for that to whomever it was.

    My lying eyes, an actually interesting gambling topic at VCT AND then Eliot also makes an appearance? Awesome! I'll take it. I figured this site would be too busy identifying specific steering wheel characteristics of RV's for that to ever happen again...so good to see some decent gambling stuff.

    Okay, so let's get into some stuff:

    Eliot, Generally:

    I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that I unconditionally defend Mr. Jacobsen in this respect, but it's certainly fully within his right to do whatever he wants to do, in that regard.

    I see the word, "Traitor," first thing? I ask this: A traitor to fucking what? The brotherhood of love, acceptance and goodwill towards men that is the AP Community? Fucking please. It's like anything else, you've got good guys and you've got bad guys...but in gambling, let's face it, is there anyone who doesn't expect someone to not have his mind on his money and money on his mind? Excluding totally apathetic useless fucks like me, of course. But, that's not out of some great moral motivation and I'm not going to pretend for a second it is...I just am too dispassionate about life to give a shit, most days.

    Oh my God, we've got Benedict fucking Arnold up in this mothafucka, a betrayer of God, country and man! Again, please. Half of the AP's would slit they Momma throat for a nickel, by their own admission. Any so-called loyalty or friendship is either by convenience, necessity or people potentially having a use for you in the future. I don't fool myself into thinking that anyone ACTUALLY likes me. Why the fuck would they? Maybe someone will have a math question sometime down the line they think I can figure out (or get close) really quickly. I'm pretty easy to get ahold of, relatively speaking. I'll at least get you close while you wait for someone even more skilled than I am to respond, you know? Allegiances make sense, but there came a time when Eliot's allegiance no longer made sense for him.

    So, Eliot did what Eliot thought was best for Eliot...as if any of you wouldn't do the same. Come on.

    Yeah, Eliot worked and did seminars for the Dark Side...I guess the Dark Side pays better for his services than would APs. I wouldn't personally work for the casinos, even if offered, but I don't fault anyone who does.

    And, take all of this with a grain of salt, of course. I'm a low value hustler who has made at least as much from writing (in less time) than from gambling. I'm not going to get into any specific numbers, but I do promise nobody would be impressed.

    Card Counter Stuff

    I don't know that Eliot ever directly advocated to just let the card counters have it, honestly, probably not the best career choice in his line of work. With that said, I personally vouch for the fact that I have read Eliot's stuff and, on no fewer than a dozen occasions, Eliot basically said something to the extent that they are no real threat. In fact, in disclosing the value of other advantage plays, Eliot would often use card counting expected profits as a metric to compare other plays against.

    He would specifically say that, from a game protection standpoint, time and resources being used to protect the house from card counting would be better used elsewhere. He analyzed and revealed the potential lucrativeness of at least one game before it had even come out. He made it clear that the biggest financial risk to the table games pit, financially, was the table games pit itself because of their flawed operations. I won't use any specific words here, but we all know what I'm talking about. Well, most of us.

    AP History

    Also, it's not like Eliot has ever said he was a great advantage player. He admitted, on multiple occasions, to essentially not be a successful AP. The most lucrative play he ever had was getting assaulted, again, basically by his own admission.

    ---And, hey, does anyone want to pay me six figures to take a shot at old Mission? I'll take the money. Maybe I'll get lucky one day and security will kick the shit out of me, god knows I tried last time I was 86'ed, didn't work.

    Don't get me wrong, I totally get why APs would be royally pissed off at him. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being pissed off at him; there's not. I'm just saying it's not like we're some kind of fucking commune who devote our lives to the mutual benefit and protection of one another. If anyone in the AP community so much as speaks to me, I assume it's because I might be useful, at some point.

    That doesn't mean we can't play nice. It doesn't mean that we can't all hang out and be buddies. It just means that there are no real friends in the community, but again, that's no big deal.

    I mean, you see it with MaxPen and MickeyCrimm going at each other. MaxPen basically just does a variant of what MickeyCrimm used to do, to the best of my understanding based on what little MP has said. That's the gambling community, folks. This forum is the gambling community. I think this is actually a more accurate portrayal, in some ways, than is the WoV forum.

    So...if there's more to gain on the other side, why in the fuck would Eliot even want to be associated with us?

    Backoffs and the Like

    I mean, it is what it is and there's a whole white-gray-black spectrum. There are some AP plays that are milky white, blackjack card counting, vulturing (not creating, straight vulturing) and any number of other things. There are gray plays, and I'll not get into specifics...but the plays sometimes involve violating the Terms & Conditions that you either technically agreed to or know about. Okay. So, you're representing that you're going to do that and then you proceed not to do that. Basically fraud, but not in the legal sense, but hey, we all know the casinos are no angels, either.

    Anyway, you have free association. The casinos say, "We don't want you here because you do x," and then you can make an argument whether or not the casinos are REASONABLE in that backoff, trespass, whatever. You can't make an argument that they don't have the right to do it, because barring perhaps a few state laws I might not be aware of, they most certainly do. The other side of the free association is, if I walk into a casino and don't see anything that can be beaten, then I choose to leave and not visit it anymore.

    This is not some great moral struggle. It's not Light v. Dark or Good v. Evil, Young Padawan. It's just all parties involved looking out for their best interest.......and sometimes the occasional overzealous assclown from security.

    As far as card counting, they could tighten the damn spreads if they wanted to, but they don't want to. Why? No idea. You've got some mostly empty table that's one of four mostly empty tables in the house that day and you need it to have a spread of minimum-50x minimum? Nobody ever accused them of being smart.

    MickeyCrimm says:

    I should also point out that some AP's are hellbent to ruin the reputations of system players like Rob Singer. They should actually be promoting the Singer's of the gambling world as they pass on what AP's consider to be bogus information which can blunt the competition.
    As much as I hate to disagree with MickeyCrimm, I don't think that anyone should promote misinformation. It's one thing not to actively try to disprove misinformation, nobody has any great automatic responsibility to do that, but I certainly wouldn't promote it.

    Yes, without the casinos winning money, APs cannot win money. I agree with that 100%. After all, to have an AP, first you have to have a casino.

    But, it doesn't mean that we should do anything to actively cause civilians to have false beliefs about gambling, systems, voodoo, rabbit's feet...whatever. For my part, I counter people promoting systems on WoV when I feel like it, will not knowingly lie to anyone in-person about anything gambling-related (though I will withhold good information or dodge questions) and generally just try not to interfere in anyway with other casino-goers.

    It's not like casinos are the be all and end all of all of existence. If nobody else ever gambles again from this moment on, I'll just go do something else for money.

    But, again, it's easy for me to say because I don't really care about lifestyle or too much in the way of material stuff. I might be more like some other people, and I don't mean that in a bad way, if I did.

    CONCLUSION:

    Anyway, that's my sort of defense of Eliot and positions on some other matters. I look forward to continuing the conversation with you guys. It is nice to see a thread over here that is not on its face absurd.
    A poor choice of words, Mission. I should have said ignore instead of promote.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  8. #28
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    Maybe some folks saw it over at BJTF. Don calling Eliot really nasty names. If anyone else did it it would be grounds for a suspension by Norm.

    Anyway is Eliot really the traitor Don makes him out to be? Eliot never has tried to hide the fact that he worked on the casino side. What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?
    Are you kidding me with this shit? Absolutely Eliot (teliot at WoV) is a traitor!

    Eliot is a brilliant gambling math guy. I suppose math in general, but for our purposes gambling math. And he attempted to support himself from advantage play, in particular card counting as this was a number of years ago before the table game explosion AP opportunities. And he failed. It is my understanding he failed because he couldn't handle the swings and variance, not having anything to do with math. Just goes to show it takes more than a little math to be successful.

    Anyway, when he failed he started working for the dark side. And you know what, you are right. There is nothing wrong with that, to some extent. Wong did it. Mike did it. Revere certainly did it.

    But eliot took it to an extreme. He formed his own company and without even having any casino clients he wrote a book exposing all the advantage plays that he could think of in great detail. Newer things the casino industry was just starting to know existed, but didn't know about. Eliot explained step by step how all these different plays worked and the advantage. And he didn't even get paid for that. He gave that information away to the dark side for free (well the cost of his book). It was a pretty clear cut case of spite for those that were succeeding where he failed.

    Later he started doing seminars for the casino industry for pay. AP's weren't even allowed in, although a pretty good number got in. It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

    Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain. He is the very definition of the word traitor. He earned it and he deserves all the crap he gets for the rest of his life.
    KJocchio is a mind reader so knows Eliot published advantage plays to spite pros. What an idiot. Once again KJocchio makes up shit out of thin air to spite someone. And while he lets others off the hook for working the darkside for some reason he wants to pick on Elliot. If I was Eliot I would track KJocchio down and bitch slap him a hundred times.
    No you wouldn’t. You’d just keep being a fake internet tough guy. Something like “bitch, some gay stuff, the end.”

  9. #29
    Originally Posted by Darkoz View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Where do you think guys like T-Eliot get all their information from? Do you think they come up with all these different method , plays and angles and moves on their own? I certainly hope nobody believes that's the case.
    They get it multiple different ways, but mainly from other Advantage Players talking too much(you know, guys that brag on forums about a play once they believe a play is over, or they even talk about what they're doing during a play, you know, look at what got stolen out of my safe), or if the casinos present them with something to analyze. Sure he probably comes up but different ways that can be applied on various different games once he has the initial information. You damn well better believe he(and others like him) have little birdies that love to run back and feed him information about what's going on in the AP World.

    Right before Eliot quit his business or however you want to describe it and basically disappeared from Wizard of Vegas there was a scandal Brewing regarding him, the main person decided to keep it to themselves and move on with their life. I'm not sure if that was the reason why he retired or whatever you want to call it, but the timing was certainly Dead on.

    I don't hate the guy. If you take away the dark side crap he seems like a decent person, it just is what it is, it. It certainly seems like he's done well for himself(?)

    From what I understand, and it's been a long time since I've heard this so take it with a grain of salt, but his former partners do in fact call him a traitor who use their Advantage play information and names to get started on the Darkside path because he couldn't handle actual Advantage Play. I have no firsthand knowledge of this myself I just know what other people have said. I'm sure it's not as bad as many people think and I'm sure it's far worse than he would have you believe.
    I understand why AP's value their secrets but the sad fact most don't want to admit is that the more "damage" is done by exposing plays, the less damage is truly done.

    For example, if I am the only person in the entire world who knows a play, I am perfectly free to expose it if I wish since I only hurt myself.

    Now other AP's start screaming they knew it too. Oh, so then I am not alone in the world and what I thought was a secret of my own isn't such a secret really. I have hurt those other AP's because they had figured out many of the moves as well. Now all the AP's are angry that the dark side has been alerted.

    But then you come to find out just like other AP figured put what you did, so did people on the Dark Side. So the AP's who claim to be so damaged are just being blind to their own superiority as well.

    How many card counters would be at work today without Ed Thorpe's book? How many would be successful without the many books that describe AP methods of card counting.

    Probably for every casino exec who read Teliots book AND did something that made the game prohibitive there are ten times as many AP's who gleaned valuable info from it.
    Can you imagine someone that learned a play from Teliot, working that play, making money, but bitching that Teliot is a traitor because casinos execs could get their hands on the information too. That's the stupidity of KJocchio's bitch.

    I started video poker with a couple of books by Dan Paymar. They were laying on the shelf at Gamblers General Store for people like me and/or casinos execs to buy. Shoud I cuss Paymar out for making the information so easily available to casinos execs? KJocchio needs to grow up.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  10. #30
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    My first casino client was in 2004 when Mike wrote to me and asked if I wanted some extra work as a gaming mathematician. Then in 2005, CDC consulting hired me to do market research projects for various clients. I believe the first casino client I had was PENN in 2005. A team of us did some secret shopping to compare various casinos in the midwest for what they were giving away in comps.

    My first book was on card counting, in 2005. My second book was on designing table games, in 2010. My third book was a compilation of blog posts from 2011 to 2013, that came out in 2015. You are right that the casino industry didn't know about a lot of this stuff, but neither did most AP's. Now they do. Mission accomplished.

    I have never been food driven. Getting paid is meaningless to me. I live in a beautiful house in Santa Barbara and I retired at age 59. Get it? Giving away information is a lesson that Bill Zender taught me. Be generous, he said. And, what I learned was that people would hire me to explain the stuff I was giving away for free.

    It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.
    I never, not once in my life, gave up an AP player or team that I knew from my AP days, or helped identify a single person I knew from my AP days. I swore a promise to my AP friends to never do that and I never broke that promise. This is the kind of lie that once started gains momentum, as it seems to be able justify everything someone wants to say about me.

    Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain.
    There you go again, thinking I sold out for financial gain. Did you forget I was a professor/lecturer at UCSB? The Computer Science department treated me very well. If it was financial gain I was interested in, I would have kept that job. I left even though I was effectively tenured.

    As I stated on BJTF, I was Phil Ivey's expert in his case AGAINST Crockford's Casino. I was the expert for the State of Florida in their case AGAINST the Seminole Tribe. I've busted major online casino corporations for cheating when I owned an ran the auditing company "Certified Fair Gambling." I was involved in bringing down a casino that was engaged in money-laundering. I've stressed in every seminar I have ever given on the subject that card counters are not a threat to casinos and should be ignored.

    What is true, KJ, is that you don't know anything about me or what I've done professionally, or my motivations. You make stuff up, as do most people, and then attach the word traitor to it as if that's all you need to say to justfify the BS. Generalizations are easy, but if you're going to attack, don't take every third-hand rumor as truth. Show the good grace of doing some fact checking first, that is what you would expect if it went the other way, right?

    I did very well as a consultant, but only because I burned bridges anytime I saw unethical behavior. Read this:

    https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/aft...n-from-gaming/

    Now, I volunteer. As a cop, at the local public TV station, at the Zoo. And, sadly, in these pandemic days, I spend a lot of time reading these forums, hopefully that will end soon.

    Meanwhile, what have you done?
    What have I done? I have supported myself for 16 years now from advantage play. Something you failed at.

    I am vacation this week (your neck of the woods to do some surfing) and only have my phone so I am not going to get into this too much now, but short and sweet: anyone who sets out to be an AP, making money from the casinos, fails, and then spends the next 10-15 years educating the casinos to protect themselves from advantage players....is a traitor in my book.

    I'll have more to say end of the week. In the meantime happy Memorial day to everyone. Be safe.
    No, please. Spare us from what you have to say at the end of the week, your highness KJocchio. Don't come back from California. Stay there.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  11. #31
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post

    Are you kidding me with this shit? Absolutely Eliot (teliot at WoV) is a traitor!

    Eliot is a brilliant gambling math guy. I suppose math in general, but for our purposes gambling math. And he attempted to support himself from advantage play, in particular card counting as this was a number of years ago before the table game explosion AP opportunities. And he failed. It is my understanding he failed because he couldn't handle the swings and variance, not having anything to do with math. Just goes to show it takes more than a little math to be successful.

    Anyway, when he failed he started working for the dark side. And you know what, you are right. There is nothing wrong with that, to some extent. Wong did it. Mike did it. Revere certainly did it.

    But eliot took it to an extreme. He formed his own company and without even having any casino clients he wrote a book exposing all the advantage plays that he could think of in great detail. Newer things the casino industry was just starting to know existed, but didn't know about. Eliot explained step by step how all these different plays worked and the advantage. And he didn't even get paid for that. He gave that information away to the dark side for free (well the cost of his book). It was a pretty clear cut case of spite for those that were succeeding where he failed.

    Later he started doing seminars for the casino industry for pay. AP's weren't even allowed in, although a pretty good number got in. It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

    Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain. He is the very definition of the word traitor. He earned it and he deserves all the crap he gets for the rest of his life.
    KJocchio is a mind reader so knows Eliot published advantage plays to spite pros. What an idiot. Once again KJocchio makes up shit out of thin air to spite someone. And while he lets others off the hook for working the darkside for some reason he wants to pick on Elliot. If I was Eliot I would track KJocchio down and bitch slap him a hundred times.
    No you wouldn’t. You’d just keep being a fake internet tough guy. Something like “bitch, some gay stuff, the end.”
    One of these days you might have a coherent thought. Not today though. Fuck off, moron.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  12. #32
    I'd like to take the time to thank Eliot for the book Avanced Advantage Play, or whatever. It's the equivalent of a ultra cheap Chinese knockoff of Grosjean's GOAT book.

    Somehow I wound up with a copy and stuck it in a drawer after realizing it didn't have much value. Then it went off the market.

    It increased in price dramatically. I sold it for around $800 online a week or so before the reprinted version came out.....which was sweet. Had to sweat a couple weeks on a 30 day return option for the buyer. Guess he never realized a reprint version came out.

    I found the book so worthless that I am not purchasing the reprint. Maybe someone will give me another copy and lightning will strike twice in the same place
    Last edited by MaxPen; 05-25-2020 at 06:55 PM.

  13. #33
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Meanwhile, what have you done?
    What have I done? I have supported myself for 16 years now from advantage play.
    Kj, I shouldn't speak for Eliot, but what I think he meant by "what have you done?" is what have you done for the AP or gambling community. Eliot has done a lot, from writing books, to defending APs in court, to finding new advantage plays through math, etc.

    It sounds like you think it's quite an accomplish that you're no longer living in your parent's basement, and you're now able to support yourself. Congratulations! Most grown ups are able to do that, and they don't brag about it. Most people don't see that as a great accomplish, but in your case in might be.

    Have you done anything else in life, besides being able to support yourself? I guess you aren't on welfare, so that's saying something.

  14. #34
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    My first casino client was in 2004 when Mike wrote to me and asked if I wanted some extra work as a gaming mathematician. Then in 2005, CDC consulting hired me to do market research projects for various clients. I believe the first casino client I had was PENN in 2005. A team of us did some secret shopping to compare various casinos in the midwest for what they were giving away in comps.

    My first book was on card counting, in 2005. My second book was on designing table games, in 2010. My third book was a compilation of blog posts from 2011 to 2013, that came out in 2015. You are right that the casino industry didn't know about a lot of this stuff, but neither did most AP's. Now they do. Mission accomplished.

    I have never been food driven. Getting paid is meaningless to me. I live in a beautiful house in Santa Barbara and I retired at age 59. Get it? Giving away information is a lesson that Bill Zender taught me. Be generous, he said. And, what I learned was that people would hire me to explain the stuff I was giving away for free.

    It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.
    I never, not once in my life, gave up an AP player or team that I knew from my AP days, or helped identify a single person I knew from my AP days. I swore a promise to my AP friends to never do that and I never broke that promise. This is the kind of lie that once started gains momentum, as it seems to be able justify everything someone wants to say about me.

    Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain.
    There you go again, thinking I sold out for financial gain. Did you forget I was a professor/lecturer at UCSB? The Computer Science department treated me very well. If it was financial gain I was interested in, I would have kept that job. I left even though I was effectively tenured.

    As I stated on BJTF, I was Phil Ivey's expert in his case AGAINST Crockford's Casino. I was the expert for the State of Florida in their case AGAINST the Seminole Tribe. I've busted major online casino corporations for cheating when I owned an ran the auditing company "Certified Fair Gambling." I was involved in bringing down a casino that was engaged in money-laundering. I've stressed in every seminar I have ever given on the subject that card counters are not a threat to casinos and should be ignored.

    What is true, KJ, is that you don't know anything about me or what I've done professionally, or my motivations. You make stuff up, as do most people, and then attach the word traitor to it as if that's all you need to say to justfify the BS. Generalizations are easy, but if you're going to attack, don't take every third-hand rumor as truth. Show the good grace of doing some fact checking first, that is what you would expect if it went the other way, right?

    I did very well as a consultant, but only because I burned bridges anytime I saw unethical behavior. Read this:

    https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/aft...n-from-gaming/

    Now, I volunteer. As a cop, at the local public TV station, at the Zoo. And, sadly, in these pandemic days, I spend a lot of time reading these forums, hopefully that will end soon.

    Meanwhile, what have you done?
    What have I done? I have supported myself for 16 years now from advantage play. Something you failed at.

    I am vacation this week (your neck of the woods to do some surfing) and only have my phone so I am not going to get into this too much now, but short and sweet: anyone who sets out to be an AP, making money from the casinos, fails, and then spends the next 10-15 years educating the casinos to protect themselves from advantage players....is a traitor in my book.

    I'll have more to say end of the week. In the meantime happy Memorial day to everyone. Be safe.
    KJ had to go back to counting cards because he failed at hole carding.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  15. #35
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    I'd like to take the time to thank Eliot for the book Avanced Advantage Play, or whatever. It's the equivalent of a ultra cheap Chinese knockoff of Grosjean's GOAT book.

    Somehow I wound up with a copy and stuck it in a drawer after realizing it didn't have much value. Then it went off the market.

    It increased in price dramatically. I sold it for around $800 online a week or so before the reprinted version came out.....which was sweet. Had to sweat a couple weeks on a 30 day return option for the buyer. Guess he never realized a reprint version came out.

    I found the book so worthless that I am not purchasing the reprint. Maybe someone will give me another copy and lightning will strike twice in the same place
    This is the kind of buffoonery that is at play here. You have two so called "AP's", KJ and Penn, who have aligned with each other in recent memory. One is saying Eliot turned loose of too much valuable information in the book that casino execs could use. The other is saying the book is worthless. You can't make this shit up.

    Penn's attack here is gratuitous and filled with buffoonery. Typical these days from this assclown. KJ's calling Eliot a "traitor" is total bullshit. Traitor to what? No one around here owes KJocchio a damn thing.

    KJ counts cards for a living because he is a failed hole carder.

    And redietz has aligned himself with both these morons.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  16. #36
    Originally Posted by Darkoz View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Where do you think guys like T-Eliot get all their information from? Do you think they come up with all these different method , plays and angles and moves on their own? I certainly hope nobody believes that's the case.
    They get it multiple different ways, but mainly from other Advantage Players talking too much(you know, guys that brag on forums about a play once they believe a play is over, or they even talk about what they're doing during a play, you know, look at what got stolen out of my safe), or if the casinos present them with something to analyze. Sure he probably comes up but different ways that can be applied on various different games once he has the initial information. You damn well better believe he(and others like him) have little birdies that love to run back and feed him information about what's going on in the AP World.

    Right before Eliot quit his business or however you want to describe it and basically disappeared from Wizard of Vegas there was a scandal Brewing regarding him, the main person decided to keep it to themselves and move on with their life. I'm not sure if that was the reason why he retired or whatever you want to call it, but the timing was certainly Dead on.

    I don't hate the guy. If you take away the dark side crap he seems like a decent person, it just is what it is, it. It certainly seems like he's done well for himself(?)

    From what I understand, and it's been a long time since I've heard this so take it with a grain of salt, but his former partners do in fact call him a traitor who use their Advantage play information and names to get started on the Darkside path because he couldn't handle actual Advantage Play. I have no firsthand knowledge of this myself I just know what other people have said. I'm sure it's not as bad as many people think and I'm sure it's far worse than he would have you believe.
    I understand why AP's value their secrets but the sad fact most don't want to admit is that the more "damage" is done by exposing plays, the less damage is truly done.

    For example, if I am the only person in the entire world who knows a play, I am perfectly free to expose it if I wish since I only hurt myself.

    Now other AP's start screaming they knew it too. Oh, so then I am not alone in the world and what I thought was a secret of my own isn't such a secret really. I have hurt those other AP's because they had figured out many of the moves as well. Now all the AP's are angry that the dark side has been alerted.

    But then you come to find out just like other AP figured put what you did, so did people on the Dark Side. So the AP's who claim to be so damaged are just being blind to their own superiority as well.

    How many card counters would be at work today without Ed Thorpe's book? How many would be successful without the many books that describe AP methods of card counting.

    Probably for every casino exec who read Teliots book AND did something that made the game prohibitive there are ten times as many AP's who gleaned valuable info from it.
    I've never read someone's Advantage Play book. I bought and watched Mike Caro's CD of poker tells.

    let's just say an advantage player finds something that's worth $5,000 in value over the course of 16 hours without any competition. But now let's say somebody blabs about it and now 60 people show up the play now becomes almost worthless at about 5 bucks an hour. And now with all that blabbing speeds up and clarifies to the casinos their mistakes and makes it less likely for them to do something like that again.

    I highly doubt if you what even know that you're the only person that knows about a particular play, there's a slight possibility you're the only person that knows about a specific location and the exact specifics of how you do it.

    So here's an example, remember you had some trouble at a specific location because they cut off your free play and for whatever reason you didn't think it was any good so then you went back and did something really stupid just for the hell of it. Long Before, during, and for a long time after that, there were in fact people there who knew exactly how to make that place very very profitable without getting getting shut off/ down. I guess you didn't know enough to realize just how good that place was and how to take advantage of it, you just knew it wasn't any good to you, so f*** it and everything else that might be possible and bring attention to the play and f*** everybody else if they actually don't want that. How would you like it if someone went to a location you were playing that you had down to a science. And now they knew something was there, but they couldn't figure it out so they just started problems in that particular Casino bringing attention to possibilities and then they blabbed about that particular location on the forums and it's possible potential and the play got burnt down all because they couldn't figure it out for themselves?

    I don't think you've been around long enough and you haven't been involved in enough different types of plays to realize the real effect all this stuff actually has. If Advantage Players are happy spreading around too much information publicly and eventually we get to a point where everybody only has the potential of making a few bucks an hour, then so be it.

    Listen, I don't think you really want to spread around information that could potentially hurt Advantage Plays. I think at first you didn't really realize the potential harm talking about certain things could do, I'm certain you didn't even realize the actual potential of some of those things.
    Once you were called out you went on the defensive and tried to save face. You were not willing to admit you might have made a mistake in you're thinking about Advantage Play. Now it would be too much of an ego hit and embarrassing to backtrack(this was clearly evident when it come to your stance regarding the value of FreePlay and how you would never buy it for more than 50%.

    I'm no expert, but I truly believe the people that are not willing to admit their mistakes and when they're wrong, actually lack confidence in their abilities, and they have very thin layer of self-esteem.

  17. #37
    Of course there's lots of value in James Grosjean's and T-Eliot's material, especially if you want to learn some advanced Advantage Play techniques. However, it's going to take a whole hell of a lot more than just reading those books if you want to actually make any money. I know quite a few who have read
    and on those books, but it hasn't benefited them at all, many of them are still stuck simply Counting.

    Come to think of it, I don't know anybody that got their start and became successful due to reading one of their books. I'm sure there has to be some guys out there who have. I just haven't heard about it. I know there are guys who end up becoming successful the weather means who then go out and by those books just because or perhaps they believe there's things in there they don't know about that could benefit them.

    You're 100 times better off learning from guys that are actually out there doing it.

    I think the difference between JG &TE is a fact that TE Worked solely and directly for casinos exposing Advantage plays to them whereas JG is trying to teach Advantage players how to beat casinos. Personally, I don't like any of it.

  18. #38
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    My first casino client was in 2004 when Mike wrote to me and asked if I wanted some extra work as a gaming mathematician. Then in 2005, CDC consulting hired me to do market research projects for various clients. I believe the first casino client I had was PENN in 2005. A team of us did some secret shopping to compare various casinos in the midwest for what they were giving away in comps.

    My first book was on card counting, in 2005. My second book was on designing table games, in 2010. My third book was a compilation of blog posts from 2011 to 2013, that came out in 2015. You are right that the casino industry didn't know about a lot of this stuff, but neither did most AP's. Now they do. Mission accomplished.

    I have never been food driven. Getting paid is meaningless to me. I live in a beautiful house in Santa Barbara and I retired at age 59. Get it? Giving away information is a lesson that Bill Zender taught me. Be generous, he said. And, what I learned was that people would hire me to explain the stuff I was giving away for free.

    It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.
    I never, not once in my life, gave up an AP player or team that I knew from my AP days, or helped identify a single person I knew from my AP days. I swore a promise to my AP friends to never do that and I never broke that promise. This is the kind of lie that once started gains momentum, as it seems to be able justify everything someone wants to say about me.

    Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain.
    There you go again, thinking I sold out for financial gain. Did you forget I was a professor/lecturer at UCSB? The Computer Science department treated me very well. If it was financial gain I was interested in, I would have kept that job. I left even though I was effectively tenured.

    As I stated on BJTF, I was Phil Ivey's expert in his case AGAINST Crockford's Casino. I was the expert for the State of Florida in their case AGAINST the Seminole Tribe. I've busted major online casino corporations for cheating when I owned an ran the auditing company "Certified Fair Gambling." I was involved in bringing down a casino that was engaged in money-laundering. I've stressed in every seminar I have ever given on the subject that card counters are not a threat to casinos and should be ignored.

    What is true, KJ, is that you don't know anything about me or what I've done professionally, or my motivations. You make stuff up, as do most people, and then attach the word traitor to it as if that's all you need to say to justfify the BS. Generalizations are easy, but if you're going to attack, don't take every third-hand rumor as truth. Show the good grace of doing some fact checking first, that is what you would expect if it went the other way, right?

    I did very well as a consultant, but only because I burned bridges anytime I saw unethical behavior. Read this:

    https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/aft...n-from-gaming/

    Now, I volunteer. As a cop, at the local public TV station, at the Zoo. And, sadly, in these pandemic days, I spend a lot of time reading these forums, hopefully that will end soon.

    Meanwhile, what have you done?
    What have I done? I have supported myself for 16 years now from advantage play.
    That is in the past tense and it seems like you are always saying it does not help yourself or one single advantage player. You never pass an opportunity to let everyone know, one way or another of your good fortune. After sixteen years of earning a living at a tough profession, you would think at some point in time that you would learn that AP Play is a thankless job without glory and that real AP's get their respect by Keeping their mouths shut. You wonder why I now am backing up someone at ZZ who plays single deck games and yes I know that is in fact like playing a whole new entirely different game, it is simple you hurt future players while you do not realize it. Moses and I play games that are completely different but I consider him a real AP as you will never figure it out anyway.

  19. #39
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Meanwhile, what have you done?
    What have I done? I have supported myself for 16 years now from advantage play.
    Kj, I shouldn't speak for Eliot, but what I think he meant by "what have you done?" is what have you done for the AP or gambling community. Eliot has done a lot, from writing books, to defending APs in court, to finding new advantage plays through math, etc.

    It sounds like you think it's quite an accomplish that you're no longer living in your parent's basement, and you're now able to support yourself. Congratulations! Most grown ups are able to do that, and they don't brag about it. Most people don't see that as a great accomplish, but in your case in might be.

    Have you done anything else in life, besides being able to support yourself? I guess you aren't on welfare, so that's saying something.
    Bob21, that was one damn good truthful post in regards to KJ. Regarding Eliot I have no response as I am not informed enough on the matter.

  20. #40
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    I'd like to take the time to thank Eliot for the book Avanced Advantage Play, or whatever. It's the equivalent of a ultra cheap Chinese knockoff of Grosjean's GOAT book.

    Somehow I wound up with a copy and stuck it in a drawer after realizing it didn't have much value. Then it went off the market.

    It increased in price dramatically. I sold it for around $800 online a week or so before the reprinted version came out.....which was sweet. Had to sweat a couple weeks on a 30 day return option for the buyer. Guess he never realized a reprint version came out.

    I found the book so worthless that I am not purchasing the reprint. Maybe someone will give me another copy and lightning will strike twice in the same place
    This is the kind of buffoonery that is at play here. You have two so called "AP's", KJ and Penn, who have aligned with each other in recent memory. One is saying Eliot turned loose of too much valuable information in the book that casino execs could use. The other is saying the book is worthless. You can't make this shit up.

    Penn's attack here is gratuitous and filled with buffoonery. Typical these days from this assclown. KJ's calling Eliot a "traitor" is total bullshit. Traitor to what? No one around here owes KJocchio a damn thing.

    KJ counts cards for a living because he is a failed hole carder.

    And redietz has aligned himself with both these morons.
    You should start a Blog.....

    Musings of a Vitriolic Hobo

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