Eliot and Don Feud

[Midwest Player]

Maybe some folks saw it over at BJTF. Don calling Eliot some really nasty names. If anyone else did it it would be grounds for a suspension by Norm.

Anyway is Eliot really the traitor Don makes him out to be? Eliot never has tried to hide the fact that he worked on the casino side. What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?

[kewlJ]

Maybe some folks saw it over at BJTF. Don calling Eliot really nasty names. If anyone else did it it would be grounds for a suspension by Norm.

Anyway is Eliot really the traitor Don makes him out to be? Eliot never has tried to hide the fact that he worked on the casino side. What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?

Are you kidding me with this shit? Absolutely Eliot (teliot at WoV) is a traitor!

Eliot is a brilliant gambling math guy. I suppose math in general, but for our purposes gambling math. And he attempted to support himself from advantage play, in particular card counting as this was a number of years ago before the table game explosion AP opportunities. And he failed. It is my understanding he failed because he couldn't handle the swings and variance, not having anything to do with math. Just goes to show it takes more than a little math to be successful.

Anyway, when he failed he started working for the dark side. And you know what, you are right. There is nothing wrong with that, to some extent. Wong did it. Mike did it. Revere certainly did it.

But eliot took it to an extreme. He formed his own company and without even having any casino clients he wrote a book exposing all the advantage plays that he could think of in great detail. Newer things the casino industry was just starting to know existed, but didn't know about. Eliot explained step by step how all these different plays worked and the advantage. And he didn't even get paid for that. He gave that information away to the dark side for free (well the cost of his book). It was a pretty clear cut case of spite for those that were succeeding where he failed.

Later he started doing seminars for the casino industry for pay. AP's weren't even allowed in, although a pretty good number got in. It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain. He is the very definition of the word traitor. He earned it and he deserves all the crap he gets for the rest of his life.

[Eliot]

But eliot took it to an extreme. He formed his own company and without even having any casino clients

My first casino client was in 2004 when Mike wrote to me and asked if I wanted some extra work as a gaming mathematician. Then in 2005, CDC consulting hired me to do market research projects for various clients. I believe the first casino client I had was PENN in 2005. A team of us did some secret shopping to compare various casinos in the midwest for what they were giving away in comps.

he wrote a book exposing all the advantage plays that he could think of in great detail. Newer things the casino industry was just starting to know existed, but didn't know about.

My first book was on card counting, in 2005. My second book was on designing table games, in 2010. My third book was a compilation of blog posts from 2011 to 2013, that came out in 2015. You are right that the casino industry didn't know about a lot of this stuff, but neither did most AP's. Now they do. Mission accomplished.

Eliot explained step by step how all these different plays worked and the advantage. And he didn't even get paid for that. He gave that information away to the dark side for free (well the cost of his book). It was a pretty clear cut case of spite for those that were succeeding where he failed.

I have never been food driven. Getting paid is meaningless to me. I live in a beautiful house in Santa Barbara and I retired at age 59. Get it? Giving away information is a lesson that Bill Zender taught me. Be generous, he said. And, what I learned was that people would hire me to explain the stuff I was giving away for free.

It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

I never, not once in my life, gave up an AP player or team that I knew from my AP days, or helped identify a single person I knew from my AP days. I swore a promise to my AP friends to never do that and I never broke that promise. This is the kind of lie that once started gains momentum, as it seems to be able justify everything someone wants to say about me.

Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain.

There you go again, thinking I sold out for financial gain. Did you forget I was a professor/lecturer at UCSB? The Computer Science department treated me very well. If it was financial gain I was interested in, I would have kept that job. I left even though I was effectively tenured.

As I stated on BJTF, I was Phil Ivey's expert in his case AGAINST Crockford's Casino. I was the expert for the State of Florida in their case AGAINST the Seminole Tribe. I've busted major online casino corporations for cheating when I owned an ran the auditing company "Certified Fair Gambling." I was involved in bringing down a casino that was engaged in money-laundering. I've stressed in every seminar I have ever given on the subject that card counters are not a threat to casinos and should be ignored.

What is true, KJ, is that you don't know anything about me or what I've done professionally, or my motivations. You make stuff up, as do most people, and then attach the word traitor to it as if that's all you need to say to justfify the BS. Generalizations are easy, but if you're going to attack, don't take every third-hand rumor as truth. Show the good grace of doing some fact checking first, that is what you would expect if it went the other way, right?

I did very well as a consultant, but only because I burned bridges anytime I saw unethical behavior. Read this:

https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/aft...n-from-gaming/

Now, I volunteer. As a cop, at the local public TV station, at the Zoo. And, sadly, in these pandemic days, I spend a lot of time reading these forums, hopefully that will end soon.

Meanwhile, what have you done?

[kewlJ]

My first casino client was in 2004 when Mike wrote to me and asked if I wanted some extra work as a gaming mathematician. Then in 2005, CDC consulting hired me to do market research projects for various clients. I believe the first casino client I had was PENN in 2005. A team of us did some secret shopping to compare various casinos in the midwest for what they were giving away in comps.

My first book was on card counting, in 2005. My second book was on designing table games, in 2010. My third book was a compilation of blog posts from 2011 to 2013, that came out in 2015. You are right that the casino industry didn't know about a lot of this stuff, but neither did most AP's. Now they do. Mission accomplished.

Eliot explained step by step how all these different plays worked and the advantage. And he didn't even get paid for that. He gave that information away to the dark side for free (well the cost of his book). It was a pretty clear cut case of spite for those that were succeeding where he failed.

I have never been food driven. Getting paid is meaningless to me. I live in a beautiful house in Santa Barbara and I retired at age 59. Get it? Giving away information is a lesson that Bill Zender taught me. Be generous, he said. And, what I learned was that people would hire me to explain the stuff I was giving away for free.

It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

I never, not once in my life, gave up an AP player or team that I knew from my AP days, or helped identify a single person I knew from my AP days. I swore a promise to my AP friends to never do that and I never broke that promise. This is the kind of lie that once started gains momentum, as it seems to be able justify everything someone wants to say about me.

Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain.

There you go again, thinking I sold out for financial gain. Did you forget I was a professor/lecturer at UCSB? The Computer Science department treated me very well. If it was financial gain I was interested in, I would have kept that job. I left even though I was effectively tenured.

As I stated on BJTF, I was Phil Ivey's expert in his case AGAINST Crockford's Casino. I was the expert for the State of Florida in their case AGAINST the Seminole Tribe. I've busted major online casino corporations for cheating when I owned an ran the auditing company "Certified Fair Gambling." I was involved in bringing down a casino that was engaged in money-laundering. I've stressed in every seminar I have ever given on the subject that card counters are not a threat to casinos and should be ignored.

What is true, KJ, is that you don't know anything about me or what I've done professionally, or my motivations. You make stuff up, as do most people, and then attach the word traitor to it as if that's all you need to say to justfify the BS. Generalizations are easy, but if you're going to attack, don't take every third-hand rumor as truth. Show the good grace of doing some fact checking first, that is what you would expect if it went the other way, right?

I did very well as a consultant, but only because I burned bridges anytime I saw unethical behavior. Read this:

https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/aft...n-from-gaming/

Now, I volunteer. As a cop, at the local public TV station, at the Zoo. And, sadly, in these pandemic days, I spend a lot of time reading these forums, hopefully that will end soon.

Meanwhile, what have you done?

What have I done? I have supported myself for 16 years now from advantage play. Something you failed at.

I am vacation this week (your neck of the woods to do some surfing) and only have my phone so I am not going to get into this too much now, but short and sweet: anyone who sets out to be an AP, making money from the casinos, fails, and then spends the next 10-15 years educating the casinos to protect themselves from advantage players....is a traitor in my book.

I'll have more to say end of the week. In the meantime happy Memorial day to everyone. Be safe.

[mickeycrimm]

My first casino client was in 2004 when Mike wrote to me and asked if I wanted some extra work as a gaming mathematician. Then in 2005, CDC consulting hired me to do market research projects for various clients. I believe the first casino client I had was PENN in 2005. A team of us did some secret shopping to compare various casinos in the midwest for what they were giving away in comps.

My first book was on card counting, in 2005. My second book was on designing table games, in 2010. My third book was a compilation of blog posts from 2011 to 2013, that came out in 2015. You are right that the casino industry didn't know about a lot of this stuff, but neither did most AP's. Now they do. Mission accomplished.

I have never been food driven. Getting paid is meaningless to me. I live in a beautiful house in Santa Barbara and I retired at age 59. Get it? Giving away information is a lesson that Bill Zender taught me. Be generous, he said. And, what I learned was that people would hire me to explain the stuff I was giving away for free.

It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

I never, not once in my life, gave up an AP player or team that I knew from my AP days, or helped identify a single person I knew from my AP days. I swore a promise to my AP friends to never do that and I never broke that promise. This is the kind of lie that once started gains momentum, as it seems to be able justify everything someone wants to say about me.

Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain.

There you go again, thinking I sold out for financial gain. Did you forget I was a professor/lecturer at UCSB? The Computer Science department treated me very well. If it was financial gain I was interested in, I would have kept that job. I left even though I was effectively tenured.

As I stated on BJTF, I was Phil Ivey's expert in his case AGAINST Crockford's Casino. I was the expert for the State of Florida in their case AGAINST the Seminole Tribe. I've busted major online casino corporations for cheating when I owned an ran the auditing company "Certified Fair Gambling." I was involved in bringing down a casino that was engaged in money-laundering. I've stressed in every seminar I have ever given on the subject that card counters are not a threat to casinos and should be ignored.

What is true, KJ, is that you don't know anything about me or what I've done professionally, or my motivations. You make stuff up, as do most people, and then attach the word traitor to it as if that's all you need to say to justfify the BS. Generalizations are easy, but if you're going to attack, don't take every third-hand rumor as truth. Show the good grace of doing some fact checking first, that is what you would expect if it went the other way, right?

I did very well as a consultant, but only because I burned bridges anytime I saw unethical behavior. Read this:

https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/aft...n-from-gaming/

Now, I volunteer. As a cop, at the local public TV station, at the Zoo. And, sadly, in these pandemic days, I spend a lot of time reading these forums, hopefully that will end soon.

Meanwhile, what have you done?

What have I done? I have supported myself for 16 years now from advantage play. Something you failed at.

I am vacation this week (your neck of the woods to do some surfing) and only have my phone so I am not going to get into this too much now, but short and sweet: anyone who sets out to be an AP, making money from the casinos, fails, and then spends the next 10-15 years educating the casinos to protect themselves from advantage players....is a traitor in my book.

I'll have more to say end of the week. In the meantime happy Memorial day to everyone. Be safe.

No, please. Spare us from what you have to say at the end of the week, your highness KJocchio. Don't come back from California. Stay there.

[Bob21]

Meanwhile, what have you done?

What have I done? I have supported myself for 16 years now from advantage play.

Kj, I shouldn't speak for Eliot, but what I think he meant by "what have you done?" is what have you done for the AP or gambling community. Eliot has done a lot, from writing books, to defending APs in court, to finding new advantage plays through math, etc.

It sounds like you think it's quite an accomplish that you're no longer living in your parent's basement, and you're now able to support yourself. Congratulations! Most grown ups are able to do that, and they don't brag about it. Most people don't see that as a great accomplish, but in your case in might be.

Have you done anything else in life, besides being able to support yourself? I guess you aren't on welfare, so that's saying something.

[BoSox]

Meanwhile, what have you done?

What have I done? I have supported myself for 16 years now from advantage play.

Kj, I shouldn't speak for Eliot, but what I think he meant by "what have you done?" is what have you done for the AP or gambling community. Eliot has done a lot, from writing books, to defending APs in court, to finding new advantage plays through math, etc.

It sounds like you think it's quite an accomplish that you're no longer living in your parent's basement, and you're now able to support yourself. Congratulations! Most grown ups are able to do that, and they don't brag about it. Most people don't see that as a great accomplish, but in your case in might be.

Have you done anything else in life, besides being able to support yourself? I guess you aren't on welfare, so that's saying something.

Bob21, that was one damn good truthful post in regards to KJ. Regarding Eliot I have no response as I am not informed enough on the matter.

[mickeycrimm]

My first casino client was in 2004 when Mike wrote to me and asked if I wanted some extra work as a gaming mathematician. Then in 2005, CDC consulting hired me to do market research projects for various clients. I believe the first casino client I had was PENN in 2005. A team of us did some secret shopping to compare various casinos in the midwest for what they were giving away in comps.

My first book was on card counting, in 2005. My second book was on designing table games, in 2010. My third book was a compilation of blog posts from 2011 to 2013, that came out in 2015. You are right that the casino industry didn't know about a lot of this stuff, but neither did most AP's. Now they do. Mission accomplished.

I have never been food driven. Getting paid is meaningless to me. I live in a beautiful house in Santa Barbara and I retired at age 59. Get it? Giving away information is a lesson that Bill Zender taught me. Be generous, he said. And, what I learned was that people would hire me to explain the stuff I was giving away for free.

It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

I never, not once in my life, gave up an AP player or team that I knew from my AP days, or helped identify a single person I knew from my AP days. I swore a promise to my AP friends to never do that and I never broke that promise. This is the kind of lie that once started gains momentum, as it seems to be able justify everything someone wants to say about me.

Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain.

There you go again, thinking I sold out for financial gain. Did you forget I was a professor/lecturer at UCSB? The Computer Science department treated me very well. If it was financial gain I was interested in, I would have kept that job. I left even though I was effectively tenured.

As I stated on BJTF, I was Phil Ivey's expert in his case AGAINST Crockford's Casino. I was the expert for the State of Florida in their case AGAINST the Seminole Tribe. I've busted major online casino corporations for cheating when I owned an ran the auditing company "Certified Fair Gambling." I was involved in bringing down a casino that was engaged in money-laundering. I've stressed in every seminar I have ever given on the subject that card counters are not a threat to casinos and should be ignored.

What is true, KJ, is that you don't know anything about me or what I've done professionally, or my motivations. You make stuff up, as do most people, and then attach the word traitor to it as if that's all you need to say to justfify the BS. Generalizations are easy, but if you're going to attack, don't take every third-hand rumor as truth. Show the good grace of doing some fact checking first, that is what you would expect if it went the other way, right?

I did very well as a consultant, but only because I burned bridges anytime I saw unethical behavior. Read this:

https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/aft...n-from-gaming/

Now, I volunteer. As a cop, at the local public TV station, at the Zoo. And, sadly, in these pandemic days, I spend a lot of time reading these forums, hopefully that will end soon.

Meanwhile, what have you done?

What have I done? I have supported myself for 16 years now from advantage play. Something you failed at.

I am vacation this week (your neck of the woods to do some surfing) and only have my phone so I am not going to get into this too much now, but short and sweet: anyone who sets out to be an AP, making money from the casinos, fails, and then spends the next 10-15 years educating the casinos to protect themselves from advantage players....is a traitor in my book.

I'll have more to say end of the week. In the meantime happy Memorial day to everyone. Be safe.

KJ had to go back to counting cards because he failed at hole carding.

[BoSox]

My first casino client was in 2004 when Mike wrote to me and asked if I wanted some extra work as a gaming mathematician. Then in 2005, CDC consulting hired me to do market research projects for various clients. I believe the first casino client I had was PENN in 2005. A team of us did some secret shopping to compare various casinos in the midwest for what they were giving away in comps.

My first book was on card counting, in 2005. My second book was on designing table games, in 2010. My third book was a compilation of blog posts from 2011 to 2013, that came out in 2015. You are right that the casino industry didn't know about a lot of this stuff, but neither did most AP's. Now they do. Mission accomplished.

I have never been food driven. Getting paid is meaningless to me. I live in a beautiful house in Santa Barbara and I retired at age 59. Get it? Giving away information is a lesson that Bill Zender taught me. Be generous, he said. And, what I learned was that people would hire me to explain the stuff I was giving away for free.

It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

I never, not once in my life, gave up an AP player or team that I knew from my AP days, or helped identify a single person I knew from my AP days. I swore a promise to my AP friends to never do that and I never broke that promise. This is the kind of lie that once started gains momentum, as it seems to be able justify everything someone wants to say about me.

Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain.

There you go again, thinking I sold out for financial gain. Did you forget I was a professor/lecturer at UCSB? The Computer Science department treated me very well. If it was financial gain I was interested in, I would have kept that job. I left even though I was effectively tenured.

As I stated on BJTF, I was Phil Ivey's expert in his case AGAINST Crockford's Casino. I was the expert for the State of Florida in their case AGAINST the Seminole Tribe. I've busted major online casino corporations for cheating when I owned an ran the auditing company "Certified Fair Gambling." I was involved in bringing down a casino that was engaged in money-laundering. I've stressed in every seminar I have ever given on the subject that card counters are not a threat to casinos and should be ignored.

What is true, KJ, is that you don't know anything about me or what I've done professionally, or my motivations. You make stuff up, as do most people, and then attach the word traitor to it as if that's all you need to say to justfify the BS. Generalizations are easy, but if you're going to attack, don't take every third-hand rumor as truth. Show the good grace of doing some fact checking first, that is what you would expect if it went the other way, right?

I did very well as a consultant, but only because I burned bridges anytime I saw unethical behavior. Read this:

https://www.cdcgamingreports.com/aft...n-from-gaming/

Now, I volunteer. As a cop, at the local public TV station, at the Zoo. And, sadly, in these pandemic days, I spend a lot of time reading these forums, hopefully that will end soon.

Meanwhile, what have you done?

What have I done? I have supported myself for 16 years now from advantage play.

That is in the past tense and it seems like you are always saying it does not help yourself or one single advantage player. You never pass an opportunity to let everyone know, one way or another of your good fortune. After sixteen years of earning a living at a tough profession, you would think at some point in time that you would learn that AP Play is a thankless job without glory and that real AP's get their respect by Keeping their mouths shut. You wonder why I now am backing up someone at ZZ who plays single deck games and yes I know that is in fact like playing a whole new entirely different game, it is simple you hurt future players while you do not realize it. Moses and I play games that are completely different but I consider him a real AP as you will never figure it out anyway.

[kewlJ]

You wonder why I now am backing up someone at ZZ who plays single deck games and yes I know that is in fact like playing a whole new entirely different game, it is simple you hurt future players while you do not realize it.

BoSox, I have always given credit that Moses is, or was playing a game very different than what most players play or even have access to. I have even said that for such a game, more complex counts would be beneficial, rather than the simplicity approach that is best for shoe games that most of us play. The thing I question about your "friend" is the limits that he claims to play in a town that won't allow anyone to play such limits for long if they are spreading at all. And the fact that he claims to have done this for 30 years now in a town that has a handful of casinos. You can't and won't get away with that for 30 days let alone 30 years. I know, I played a town with a dozen casinos for 5 years and I now play Reno several times a year. I know what I am talking about, you can not regularly play green to black at a half dozen casinos for 30 years! I roll into town 2-3 times a year and have worn out my welcome in 2-3 days.

But your ZZ single deck card counter has bigger things to worry about now. His world just came crashing down as the Nevada Gaming Commission just announced an end to Single deck blackjack in Nevada. Everything has to be shoe games with no player touching of cards. I have actually been warning him of this too. I have said at some point these games, the last of their kind would be disappearing. I didn't envision it coming about like this, but I knew this day would come and warned him to prepare.

He has been hoping and posting that my game and world was going to take a big hit from this unforeseen situation and it is his that just exploded. If he asks me nicely, maybe I will give him some tips on how to adjust to the new world he faces so he can pay his weekly rent on his room.

[Kim Lee]

My first casino client was in 2004. My first book was on card counting, in 2005. ... people would hire me to explain the stuff I was giving away for free.

Eliot did not invent any of this, and barely even played. Instead, it was a self-promoting business model. He gave newspaper interviews about blackjack "heat" despite being a mere red-chip player! Then he "retired" from play and wrote redundant books. He blogged about other people's secrets, which he had not personally developed or used. He sold APHeat to 888 Casino. And he used all this publicity to get consulting gigs.

[jbjb]

He sold APHeat to 888 Casino.

Other than those posts and a few others, there's 50 times as much bad advice on that site.

[mickeycrimm]

Maybe some folks saw it over at BJTF. Don calling Eliot really nasty names. If anyone else did it it would be grounds for a suspension by Norm.

Anyway is Eliot really the traitor Don makes him out to be? Eliot never has tried to hide the fact that he worked on the casino side. What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?

Are you kidding me with this shit? Absolutely Eliot (teliot at WoV) is a traitor!

Eliot is a brilliant gambling math guy. I suppose math in general, but for our purposes gambling math. And he attempted to support himself from advantage play, in particular card counting as this was a number of years ago before the table game explosion AP opportunities. And he failed. It is my understanding he failed because he couldn't handle the swings and variance, not having anything to do with math. Just goes to show it takes more than a little math to be successful.

Anyway, when he failed he started working for the dark side. And you know what, you are right. There is nothing wrong with that, to some extent. Wong did it. Mike did it. Revere certainly did it.

But eliot took it to an extreme. He formed his own company and without even having any casino clients he wrote a book exposing all the advantage plays that he could think of in great detail. Newer things the casino industry was just starting to know existed, but didn't know about. Eliot explained step by step how all these different plays worked and the advantage. And he didn't even get paid for that. He gave that information away to the dark side for free (well the cost of his book). It was a pretty clear cut case of spite for those that were succeeding where he failed.

Later he started doing seminars for the casino industry for pay. AP's weren't even allowed in, although a pretty good number got in. It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain. He is the very definition of the word traitor. He earned it and he deserves all the crap he gets for the rest of his life.

KJocchio is a mind reader so knows Eliot published advantage plays to spite pros. What an idiot. Once again KJocchio makes up shit out of thin air to spite someone. And while he lets others off the hook for working the darkside for some reason he wants to pick on Elliot. If I was Eliot I would track KJocchio down and bitch slap him a hundred times.

[mcap]

Maybe some folks saw it over at BJTF. Don calling Eliot really nasty names. If anyone else did it it would be grounds for a suspension by Norm.

Anyway is Eliot really the traitor Don makes him out to be? Eliot never has tried to hide the fact that he worked on the casino side. What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?

Are you kidding me with this shit? Absolutely Eliot (teliot at WoV) is a traitor!

Eliot is a brilliant gambling math guy. I suppose math in general, but for our purposes gambling math. And he attempted to support himself from advantage play, in particular card counting as this was a number of years ago before the table game explosion AP opportunities. And he failed. It is my understanding he failed because he couldn't handle the swings and variance, not having anything to do with math. Just goes to show it takes more than a little math to be successful.

Anyway, when he failed he started working for the dark side. And you know what, you are right. There is nothing wrong with that, to some extent. Wong did it. Mike did it. Revere certainly did it.

But eliot took it to an extreme. He formed his own company and without even having any casino clients he wrote a book exposing all the advantage plays that he could think of in great detail. Newer things the casino industry was just starting to know existed, but didn't know about. Eliot explained step by step how all these different plays worked and the advantage. And he didn't even get paid for that. He gave that information away to the dark side for free (well the cost of his book). It was a pretty clear cut case of spite for those that were succeeding where he failed.

Later he started doing seminars for the casino industry for pay. AP's weren't even allowed in, although a pretty good number got in. It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain. He is the very definition of the word traitor. He earned it and he deserves all the crap he gets for the rest of his life.

KJocchio is a mind reader so knows Eliot published advantage plays to spite pros. What an idiot. Once again KJocchio makes up shit out of thin air to spite someone. And while he lets others off the hook for working the darkside for some reason he wants to pick on Elliot. If I was Eliot I would track KJocchio down and bitch slap him a hundred times.

No you wouldn’t. You’d just keep being a fake internet tough guy. Something like “bitch, some gay stuff, the end.”

[mickeycrimm]

Are you kidding me with this shit? Absolutely Eliot (teliot at WoV) is a traitor!

Eliot is a brilliant gambling math guy. I suppose math in general, but for our purposes gambling math. And he attempted to support himself from advantage play, in particular card counting as this was a number of years ago before the table game explosion AP opportunities. And he failed. It is my understanding he failed because he couldn't handle the swings and variance, not having anything to do with math. Just goes to show it takes more than a little math to be successful.

Anyway, when he failed he started working for the dark side. And you know what, you are right. There is nothing wrong with that, to some extent. Wong did it. Mike did it. Revere certainly did it.

But eliot took it to an extreme. He formed his own company and without even having any casino clients he wrote a book exposing all the advantage plays that he could think of in great detail. Newer things the casino industry was just starting to know existed, but didn't know about. Eliot explained step by step how all these different plays worked and the advantage. And he didn't even get paid for that. He gave that information away to the dark side for free (well the cost of his book). It was a pretty clear cut case of spite for those that were succeeding where he failed.

Later he started doing seminars for the casino industry for pay. AP's weren't even allowed in, although a pretty good number got in. It has been strongly suggested that he even sold out information of players and teams that he knew or knew of from his AP days. That part of it I can't swear to but I have heard it from some pretty reliable sources.

Bottom line is that he didn't go to work or consult with the casinos for the money. He sold out...everything he knew to spite AP's for very little financial gain. He is the very definition of the word traitor. He earned it and he deserves all the crap he gets for the rest of his life.

KJocchio is a mind reader so knows Eliot published advantage plays to spite pros. What an idiot. Once again KJocchio makes up shit out of thin air to spite someone. And while he lets others off the hook for working the darkside for some reason he wants to pick on Elliot. If I was Eliot I would track KJocchio down and bitch slap him a hundred times.

No you wouldn’t. You’d just keep being a fake internet tough guy. Something like “bitch, some gay stuff, the end.”

One of these days you might have a coherent thought. Not today though. Fuck off, moron.

[MaxPen]

I'd like to take the time to thank Eliot for the book Avanced Advantage Play, or whatever. It's the equivalent of a ultra cheap Chinese knockoff of Grosjean's GOAT book.

Somehow I wound up with a copy and stuck it in a drawer after realizing it didn't have much value. Then it went off the market.

It increased in price dramatically. I sold it for around $800 online a week or so before the reprinted version came out.....which was sweet. Had to sweat a couple weeks on a 30 day return option for the buyer. Guess he never realized a reprint version came out.

I found the book so worthless that I am not purchasing the reprint. Maybe someone will give me another copy and lightning will strike twice in the same place

[Bob21]

Maybe some folks saw it over at BJTF. Don calling Eliot some really nasty names. If anyone else did it it would be grounds for a suspension by Norm.

Anyway is Eliot really the traitor Don makes him out to be? Eliot never has tried to hide the fact that he worked on the casino side. What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?

MWP, I did see it, and I thought you did a good job trying to calm things down. Wow, you could see those two went way back with their hostilities toward each other.

While I’m sure there is some fault on both sides, Don is definitely the guilt party. It was unprofessional for Don to call someone out of Eliot’s stature on something like Don did. And then they both escalated it. It’ll be interesting to see what happens.

[jbjb]

All we need now is for Eliot to start quoting page numbers from his book.

[kewlJ]

All we need now is for Eliot to start quoting page numbers from his book.

Well most of Don's posts do that as well, so I am not going to hold THAT against eliot.

What about my recap (above) jbjb. You are a guy who knows. Anything I got wrong?

[jbjb]

All we need now is for Eliot to start quoting page numbers from his book.

Well most of Don's posts do that as well, so I am not going to hold THAT against eliot.

What about my recap (above) jbjb. You are a guy who knows. Anything I got wrong?

Never read any of his books. Only know from what's he posted. But yeah, you're mostly correct.

The problem is the hypocrisy over others like him, namely Rubin. He may not have done as much as Eliot, but he's no different. I wouldn't trust either one of them. No AP should!