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Thread: Eliot and Don Feud

  1. #41
    ZZ single deck AP, Bob21 made a real good post just not the one you quoted.

  2. #42
    Moses, I read your post, and your criticism of me on backing off counters. I was probably too strong on what I said, and how quickly I said i’d kick some of these young kids out. But some of them have really got on my nerves.

    I don’t have any casinos in my town, but there are a couple within about 100 miles of me. I consider these my home turf, which are mostly located in small poor towns. Well, these arrogant AP kids come into my home turf, and they just have no respect for anybody. Not all APs are like this, but a good chunk of them are.

    What pisses me off is when I’m playing DD with one of them and we’re both counting and we both know each other are counting, since we’re moving our bets in tandom like synchronized swimmer, and then when the count goes negative they step back from the table and act like they’re talking on their phone, making me eat the negative hands. Obviously, I don’t stay around long when that happens.

    I never do that when I’m playing with another counter. If we both know we’re counting, we should both stay at the table and eat negative hands together, especially with DD. That’s just being respectful of a fellow AP.

    The other thing that kind of pisses me off is how they will sometimes win a fair amount of money, like in the $2,000 to $5,000 range and then leave the table without giving the dealer even a single dollar tip. I’ve seen this happen more than once.

    I’m sure they then go on some forum and brag about how they won all this money and didn’t leave a tip.

    That was one of my biggest complaints about BJA. One of their core tentents is to not tip. BJA basically believes APs should keep everything for themselves, and have no respect for casino employees, who make below minimum wage.

    I guess I don’t have much tolerance for people who have no respect for their fellowman. Dealers and casino employees are just doing their jobs. They are in the entertainment industry. Part of their income comes from tips.

    So these type of APs, who come into a poor rural town and crap on the casinos and don’t even leave a one dollar tip, yeah, these are the ones I’d ban almost immediately.

    The problem is the casino staff isn’t trained well, so these APs get away with a lot more than I’d allow. I would not allow going from $10 to $500 when the count is +4 or higher, and then wonging out in most negative counts.

    In my book that’s not playing fair with casinos, and it’s grounds for banning. Who knows when I retire I might go into consulting for small rural casinos.

  3. #43
    Why are you even at the table with another counter?

  4. #44
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Why are you even at the table with another counter?
    If there are only three tables at the casino and they all have counters, you’re pretty much forced to play with another counter or not play. And I know these casinos pretty well, and know they don’t know what is going on.

    I’m not in Vegas doing this. Or even in Bilixo. I get that you can’t get away with this stuff in casinos with knowledgeable staff.

    But beleive it or not, there are a lot of casinos in NA, and there are still a couple places left where multiple counters can play at the same table and move their bets like synchronize swimmers and the staff doesn’t know what’s going on.

    I’ve played at a table before with three other counters and we all moved our bets with the count and we were laughing as we did it and they didn’t have a clue. This doesn’t happen often, but it has happened.

    I know it’s hard for some APs to understand things are different in different parts of the country. And one standard doesn’t fit for everybody.

  5. #45
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    You wonder why I now am backing up someone at ZZ who plays single deck games and yes I know that is in fact like playing a whole new entirely different game, it is simple you hurt future players while you do not realize it.
    BoSox, I have always given credit that Moses is, or was playing a game very different than what most players play or even have access to. I have even said that for such a game, more complex counts would be beneficial, rather than the simplicity approach that is best for shoe games that most of us play. The thing I question about your "friend" is the limits that he claims to play in a town that won't allow anyone to play such limits for long if they are spreading at all. And the fact that he claims to have done this for 30 years now in a town that has a handful of casinos. You can't and won't get away with that for 30 days let alone 30 years. I know, I played a town with a dozen casinos for 5 years and I now play Reno several times a year. I know what I am talking about, you can not regularly play green to black at a half dozen casinos for 30 years! I roll into town 2-3 times a year and have worn out my welcome in 2-3 days.

    But your ZZ single deck card counter has bigger things to worry about now. His world just came crashing down as the Nevada Gaming Commission just announced an end to Single deck blackjack in Nevada. Everything has to be shoe games with no player touching of cards. I have actually been warning him of this too. I have said at some point these games, the last of their kind would be disappearing. I didn't envision it coming about like this, but I knew this day would come and warned him to prepare.

    He has been hoping and posting that my game and world was going to take a big hit from this unforeseen situation and it is his that just exploded. If he asks me nicely, maybe I will give him some tips on how to adjust to the new world he faces so he can pay his weekly rent on his room.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  6. #46
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Dude, you don't even know that James Grosjean published a book before Eliot called Beyond Counting. The book is now a collector's item. Eliot's book is similar. Yet, no one ever called Grosjean a traitor. It's called a double standard. You really should think before you take KJocchio's side of things.
    Mickeycrimm, you are so hell bend on fighting everything that I say that you have come unglued. You are comparing Eliot to Grosjean? I know one of these people personally and trust me there is no comparison.

    Grosjean published a book. Big deal. Lots of players do so. I don't hold that against him, nor is that the part that really makes Eliot a traitor. And btw, Grosjean was pretty damn smart about the way he even did that. He made it so it wouldn't be available to every nickel and dime player. Because there was some investment involved only serious players would have access.

    Now if Eliot and again, I give him great props for his math ability, but if he had decided to put that ability to work for the casinos from the get go. Well that is his choice. Lots of smart people do that. But that is NOT his story. His story is that he failed at our side of the table and then went to the evil, dark side. That by definition is a traitor.

    And it is not Eliot writing a book that is the big issue. Like I said lots of players write a book. But it was the seminars and consulting that really make him a traitor. Those seminars were only open to casino personnel, although AP's managed to get in and they were explicitly for the purpose of outing and teaching the casino industry of plays they weren't familiar with and how to stop players exploiting them. THAT makes him a traitor.

    And finally, I suggested Eliot gave up names and info on players that he knew and knew of from his time as a player. He has come here and denied that. That puts me in an awkward situation, because I don't have first hand knowledge of this, and I don't like calling someone a liar based on second hand info. But I will tell you this: since yesterday when he came here and denied that he did that, I have heard from 2 different people, who assure me that he did, one saying he and his teammates were the direct victim. I promised both I would not use names, these are players that I know as truthful and if I could disclose their names, you and most other people would find them extremely credible. And THAT would most certainly make him a traitor.

    So that is where we are on that. I said it. Eliot denies it. I believe the people who told me. If you chose to believe Eliot so be it. But I doubt you do. You are just playing your troll games trying to discredit me. There comes a point mickeycrimm, are you an AP who can tell the truth about these things or are you just now ONLY a troll, attacking people based on whatever it is you have chosen sides about?
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  7. #47
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Dude, you don't even know that James Grosjean published a book before Eliot called Beyond Counting. The book is now a collector's item. Eliot's book is similar. Yet, no one ever called Grosjean a traitor. It's called a double standard. You really should think before you take KJocchio's side of things.
    Mickeycrimm, you are so hell bend on fighting everything that I say that you have come unglued. You are comparing Eliot to Grosjean? I know one of these people personally and trust me there is no comparison.

    Grosjean published a book. Big deal. Lots of players do so. I don't hold that against him, nor is that the part that really makes Eliot a traitor. And btw, Grosjean was pretty damn smart about the way he even did that. He made it so it wouldn't be available to every nickel and dime player. Because there was some investment involved only serious players would have access.

    Now if Eliot and again, I give him great props for his math ability, but if he had decided to put that ability to work for the casinos from the get go. Well that is his choice. Lots of smart people do that. But that is NOT his story. His story is that he failed at our side of the table and then went to the evil, dark side. That by definition is a traitor.

    And it is not Eliot writing a book that is the big issue. Like I said lots of players write a book. But it was the seminars and consulting that really make him a traitor. Those seminars were only open to casino personnel, although AP's managed to get in and they were explicitly for the purpose of outing and teaching the casino industry of plays they weren't familiar with and how to stop players exploiting them. THAT makes him a traitor.

    And finally, I suggested Eliot gave up names and info on players that he knew and knew of from his time as a player. He has come here and denied that. That puts me in an awkward situation, because I don't have first hand knowledge of this, and I don't like calling someone a liar based on second hand info. But I will tell you this: since yesterday when he came here and denied that he did that, I have heard from 2 different people, who assure me that he did, one saying he and his teammates were the direct victim. I promised both I would not use names, these are players that I know as truthful and if I could disclose their names, you and most other people would find them extremely credible. And THAT would most certainly make him a traitor.

    So that is where we are on that. I said it. Eliot denies it. I believe the people who told me. If you chose to believe Eliot so be it. But I doubt you do. You are just playing your troll games trying to discredit me. There comes a point mickeycrimm, are you an AP who can tell the truth about these things or are you just now ONLY a troll, attacking people based on whatever it is you have chosen sides about?
    If Teliots gave up other AP personal info, names etc then yes that works for me as being a traitor.

    He denies it and while I am certain KJ and the people he spoke to have evidence it does no good unless it's shown. Without showing the evidence it's as good as Rob Singer claiming what he does.

    However did Eliot do his own math and analysis on all the games in his books and his dark side work? As long as he did his own legwork he hasn't taken any AP oath I am aware of. He is free to work where he wants. There is no contract saying he can't work for any competing company (and some companies do make you sign those)

    What I'm getting at is was he just a former AP who decided to work for casinos or did he get his knowledge from other AP's and then distribute the knowledge given to him.

    There is a definite difference in my opinion based on the answer to that

  8. #48
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    You wonder why I now am backing up someone at ZZ who plays single deck games and yes I know that is in fact like playing a whole new entirely different game, it is simple you hurt future players while you do not realize it.
    BoSox, I have always given credit that Moses is, or was playing a game very different than what most players play or even have access to. I have even said that for such a game, more complex counts would be beneficial, rather than the simplicity approach that is best for shoe games that most of us play. The thing I question about your "friend" is the limits that he claims to play in a town that won't allow anyone to play such limits for long if they are spreading at all. And the fact that he claims to have done this for 30 years now in a town that has a handful of casinos. You can't and won't get away with that for 30 days let alone 30 years. I know, I played a town with a dozen casinos for 5 years and I now play Reno several times a year. I know what I am talking about, you can not regularly play green to black at a half dozen casinos for 30 years! I roll into town 2-3 times a year and have worn out my welcome in 2-3 days.

    But your ZZ single deck card counter has bigger things to worry about now. His world just came crashing down as the Nevada Gaming Commission just announced an end to Single deck blackjack in Nevada. Everything has to be shoe games with no player touching of cards. I have actually been warning him of this too. I have said at some point these games, the last of their kind would be disappearing. I didn't envision it coming about like this, but I knew this day would come and warned him to prepare.

    He has been hoping and posting that my game and world was going to take a big hit from this unforeseen situation and it is his that just exploded. If he asks me nicely, maybe I will give him some tips on how to adjust to the new world he faces so he can pay his weekly rent on his room.
    It can be dealt out of a shoe face up. They'll figure something out to keep SD around.

  9. #49
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Dude, you don't even know that James Grosjean published a book before Eliot called Beyond Counting. The book is now a collector's item. Eliot's book is similar. Yet, no one ever called Grosjean a traitor. It's called a double standard. You really should think before you take KJocchio's side of things.
    Mickeycrimm, you are so hell bend on fighting everything that I say that you have come unglued. You are comparing Eliot to Grosjean? I know one of these people personally and trust me there is no comparison.

    Grosjean published a book. Big deal. Lots of players do so. I don't hold that against him, nor is that the part that really makes Eliot a traitor. And btw, Grosjean was pretty damn smart about the way he even did that. He made it so it wouldn't be available to every nickel and dime player. Because there was some investment involved only serious players would have access.

    Now if Eliot and again, I give him great props for his math ability, but if he had decided to put that ability to work for the casinos from the get go. Well that is his choice. Lots of smart people do that. But that is NOT his story. His story is that he failed at our side of the table and then went to the evil, dark side. That by definition is a traitor.

    And it is not Eliot writing a book that is the big issue. Like I said lots of players write a book. But it was the seminars and consulting that really make him a traitor. Those seminars were only open to casino personnel, although AP's managed to get in and they were explicitly for the purpose of outing and teaching the casino industry of plays they weren't familiar with and how to stop players exploiting them. THAT makes him a traitor.

    And finally, I suggested Eliot gave up names and info on players that he knew and knew of from his time as a player. He has come here and denied that. That puts me in an awkward situation, because I don't have first hand knowledge of this, and I don't like calling someone a liar based on second hand info. But I will tell you this: since yesterday when he came here and denied that he did that, I have heard from 2 different people, who assure me that he did, one saying he and his teammates were the direct victim. I promised both I would not use names, these are players that I know as truthful and if I could disclose their names, you and most other people would find them extremely credible. And THAT would most certainly make him a traitor.

    So that is where we are on that. I said it. Eliot denies it. I believe the people who told me. If you chose to believe Eliot so be it. But I doubt you do. You are just playing your troll games trying to discredit me. There comes a point mickeycrimm, are you an AP who can tell the truth about these things or are you just now ONLY a troll, attacking people based on whatever it is you have chosen sides about?
    Eliot gave seminars to casino personnel? What a coincidence. So did Bob Dancer. And your hero which you are now playing footsy with, Michael Shackleford protects Dancer from having to answer questions about such things. That means you are aiding and abetting Shackleford who is aiding and abetting Bob Dancer. So get off your high horse.

    You are pretty much just a character assassin.

    PS: You WERE bitching about the book. Now you are saying the book is okay. You're as phony as 3-dollar bills.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  10. #50
    Originally Posted by Darkoz View Post
    If Teliots gave up other AP personal info, names etc then yes that works for me as being a traitor.

    He denies it and while I am certain KJ and the people he spoke to have evidence it does no good unless it's shown. Without showing the evidence it's as good as Rob Singer claiming what he does.

    However did Eliot do his own math and analysis on all the games in his books and his dark side work? As long as he did his own legwork he hasn't taken any AP oath I am aware of. He is free to work where he wants. There is no contract saying he can't work for any competing company (and some companies do make you sign those)

    What I'm getting at is was he just a former AP who decided to work for casinos or did he get his knowledge from other AP's and then distribute the knowledge given to him.

    There is a definite difference in my opinion based on the answer to that
    First off, let me thank MickeyCrimm for clarifying his position on the issue of misinformation.

    That out of the way, I basically agree with DarkOz here...though I still kind of consider, 'Traitor,' a weird word.

    I agree that the evidence is no good unless demonstrated, and barring such demonstration, choose to take Eliot on his word because he is the accused. More than that, if the evidence just consists of a few APs saying that he did that, then it immediately occurs to me that they might have some motivation to either want Eliot to look bad...or perhaps some kind of confirmation bias.

    Like, "Eliot is on the Dark Side, I used to work with Eliot, the casinos found me out; therefore Eliot must have outed me."

    Which is reasonable enough as a hypothesis, but is not proof in and of itself. With more detail, (preferably directly from the source) we might be able to ascertain whether or not there is good circumstantial evidence that would lend itself to such a conclusion. For instance, if Eliot was directly working with a house at a given time while one of the APs was working it (with no prior issue) and then they found themselves being shown the door, that would certainly be interesting timing. Although, if I was one of Eliot's former comrades and saw him in a place working, I'm going to almost immediately turn and take my happy ass out of there just in case.

    That having been said, I do also tend to believe Eliot because he's always been pretty upfront with what he's doing and what his motivations are. Anyone who followed APHeat would even have to admit that. All of the things that I said in my earlier post, even if unflattering (not a successful AP) are things that I only said because he said those things himself. I'm not sure what motivation he would have to lie when I've at least never seen him do anything but tell the truth as he sees it.

    And, as he pointed out, he was an expert witness for Ivey, owned CFG for a time, literally sued a casino and settled it...so it's not like Mr. Eliot is all casinos all the time, rah rah, go team.

    The two observations that I would make about Eliot are these:

    1.) He's an academic. We know that he's extremely well-educated and also, at one point, that he was a professor. In a certain sense, it seems that he just wants mathematical information to be open and available to anyone who wants to seek it out. Nobody has to like it, or appreciate him for doing it, but that seems to be the main thing that motivates him and I believe he has basically said as much.

    2.) Eliot seems to place a high value on fairness. The Ivey thing was unfair to Ivey. If everyone has access to the same information, then the game is fair. CFG in and of itself.

    Now, you might say it's not an UNFAIR game if the casinos are screwing something up in the Table Game operations and do not know they are screwing up, and I would agree with that...hell, I also think Eliot would agree with that since he was an expert witness on behalf of Ivey. He's just putting the info out there and selling seminars so the casinos can learn where they are screwing up.

    Which, perhaps fortunately for KewlJ (according to Eliot) is partially wasting too much time and effort sweating BJ card counters.

  11. #51
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    I'd like to take the time to thank Eliot for the book Avanced Advantage Play, or whatever. It's the equivalent of a ultra cheap Chinese knockoff of Grosjean's GOAT book.

    Somehow I wound up with a copy and stuck it in a drawer after realizing it didn't have much value. Then it went off the market.

    It increased in price dramatically. I sold it for around $800 online a week or so before the reprinted version came out.....which was sweet. Had to sweat a couple weeks on a 30 day return option for the buyer. Guess he never realized a reprint version came out.

    I found the book so worthless that I am not purchasing the reprint. Maybe someone will give me another copy and lightning will strike twice in the same place
    This is the kind of buffoonery that is at play here. You have two so called "AP's", KJ and Penn, who have aligned with each other in recent memory. One is saying Eliot turned loose of too much valuable information in the book that casino execs could use. The other is saying the book is worthless. You can't make this shit up.

    Penn's attack here is gratuitous and filled with buffoonery. Typical these days from this assclown. KJ's calling Eliot a "traitor" is total bullshit. Traitor to what? No one around here owes KJocchio a damn thing.

    KJ counts cards for a living because he is a failed hole carder.

    And redietz has aligned himself with both these morons.
    You should start a Blog.....

    Musings of a Vitriolic Hobo
    You should start a blog on Professional Nickel Keno Play & Topping KJ
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  12. #52
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    You should start a blog on Professional Nickel Keno Play & Topping KJ
    I wouldn't want to infringe on your territory and I'll leave all the toppings to you. Even though you're Grandpa Newell's bottom man servant.

  13. #53
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    His story is that he failed at our side of the table and then went to the evil, dark side.
    I wish I had Mickey's eloquence, but there is so much missing here logically, I can't begin to unravel it. But, let's give it a try.

    First of all, I did not FAIL at *your side.* I was a winning red-chip player, primarily card counting and hole-carding 3CP. I think my best year was about +$6000. So, yeah, definitely not an aspiring professional.

    Back in 2002 I got a call from a hole-card team, I think it was 1 AM, and they were asking me to fly to Reno, and I said no because I was giving a mid-term the next day. The point is that I had a job I liked, being a professor at one of the top universities in the world, that paid well, gave me health insurance and retirement, and was something I enjoyed doing. So no, I didn't *fail* -- I chose a different job. One that benefits society. One that holds a position of prestige. One that paid well and had substantial benefits. Not everyone can do what I can do -- get a Ph.D. in mathematics and get tenured at a research University -- a lifetime job with very few demands. I can only imagine that if you had my drive and educational opportunities you might have made a better choice for yourself.

    In 2003, Stanford Wong told me quite directly, Eliot, you have proven to yourself that you can beat these games. I can tell there is nothing left in this for you. Many years ago, Snyder wrote an essay about loving blackjack and gambling, and that without that love, you could never be a professional. I didn't love it from day one, and that was clear to anyone who knew me. I did't enjoy the smoke, crowds, long days, heat & exhaustion. There is nothing about being a full-time professional AP that was ever of interest to me. I did't enjoy producing nothing of value. I did't enjoy no medical insurance or retirement. I did't enjoy the vast sociopathic brotherhood who will turn on each other in an instant. The drugs. The physical danger. For what? To play a game?

    I continued on as a professor until 2009, while building up my clientele in the casino industry. By 2009, I was making more working for the industry than as a professor, which allowed me to quit that job and become a full time consultant. My work over the years was primarily game design, slot machine design (and yes, Mickey, we mathematicians knew that the specifications they gave us permitted advantage play, but they didn't listen so we designed them anyway, e.g. the game that was 160%, the class 2 games were ripe), auditing of online casinos, and market research. And yes, all that changed in 2011 after I published that article on Mike's site about the Dragon 7 bet.

    After my website cardcounter.com got hacked by LVHCM in 2001, I got a phone call from a top AP who told me quite simply that I should shut down my site because, there are sociopaths and miscreants everywhere in the AP community. If you haven't read Abram's Alexander's take down of the AP community in their "Advanced Tactics in Casino Advantage Play" maybe you should review that. The way teams turn on each other. The gang like mentality that AP's have towards each other. I don't know what world you are living in to think that there should be anything interesting about such a lifestyle to everyone. That everyone secretly wants to be an AP. That is not true. It is just one of many false things you believe about yourself and others.

    And then there is your use of the words "evil, dark side." Those are as wrong as you can get. Casinos everywhere offer jobs, get people out of poverty, support schools, donate to good causes. Yes, gambling is a social issue. But so is tobacco and alcohol, but you don't go around saying everyone who works at a liquor store is on the "evil, dark side." They are just doing a job. You can hate anyone you want, you can think anyone you want to is "evil." It's a free country, and that freedom is supported by tax payers like me. But, I have better things to do than live my life in your world of sociopathic darkness and lies.

    I think you haven't read my essay on the word "evil" lately. I invite you to do so.

    https://www.888casino.com/blog/apheat/why-they-play

    So, you can have your simplistic black/white view of me, KewlJ, but it's wrong.

    I am not going to address your other points, though you are equally wrong on each of them. You seem to want to gain points with some sort of false family you think you have by spreading these rumours and lies. Your lying, threats and fabrications follow you everywhere in your life. How much you hate ... be careful, it will shorten your life.
    Last edited by Eliot; 05-26-2020 at 03:00 PM.

  14. #54
    Eliot seems like a funny guy. Funny peculiar, not funny haha.

  15. #55
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Eliot seems like a funny guy. Funny peculiar, not funny haha.
    Dweeb is probably the word you're looking for.

  16. #56
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Eliot seems like a funny guy. Funny peculiar, not funny haha.

  17. #57
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Eliot seems like a funny guy. Funny peculiar, not funny haha.
    have you ever met a math genius that wasn't?

  18. #58
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Eliot seems like a funny guy. Funny peculiar, not funny haha.
    have you ever met a math genius that wasn't?
    Personal insult to the Wizard

    Oops, wrong forum.

  19. #59
    Originally Posted by Darkoz View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Eliot seems like a funny guy. Funny peculiar, not funny haha.
    have you ever met a math genius that wasn't?
    Personal insult to the Wizard

    Oops, wrong forum.
    He already knows, excepts and embraces it. Compared to some of these guys I have met he would be considered totally normal.

    Now imagine someone who's very peculiar and yet they are are not too smart or savvy.

  20. #60

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