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Thread: Eliot and Don Feud

  1. #61
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    His story is that he failed at our side of the table and then went to the evil, dark side.
    I wish I had Mickey's eloquence, but there is so much missing here logically, I can't begin to unravel it. But, let's give it a try.

    First of all, I did not FAIL at *your side.* I was a winning red-chip player, primarily card counting and hole-carding 3CP. I think my best year was about +$6000. So, yeah, definitely not an aspiring professional.

    Back in 2002 I got a call from a hole-card team, I think it was 1 AM, and they were asking me to fly to Reno, and I said no because I was giving a mid-term the next day. The point is that I had a job I liked, being a professor at one of the top universities in the world, that paid well, gave me health insurance and retirement, and was something I enjoyed doing. So no, I didn't *fail* -- I chose a different job. One that benefits society. One that holds a position of prestige. One that paid well and had substantial benefits. Not everyone can do what I can do -- get a Ph.D. in mathematics and get tenured at a research University -- a lifetime job with very few demands. I can only imagine that if you had my drive and educational opportunities you might have made a better choice for yourself.

    In 2003, Stanford Wong told me quite directly, Eliot, you have proven to yourself that you can beat these games. I can tell there is nothing left in this for you. Many years ago, Snyder wrote an essay about loving blackjack and gambling, and that without that love, you could never be a professional. I didn't love it from day one, and that was clear to anyone who knew me. I did't enjoy the smoke, crowds, long days, heat & exhaustion. There is nothing about being a full-time professional AP that was ever of interest to me. I did't enjoy producing nothing of value. I did't enjoy no medical insurance or retirement. I did't enjoy the vast sociopathic brotherhood who will turn on each other in an instant. The drugs. The physical danger. For what? To play a game?

    I continued on as a professor until 2009, while building up my clientele in the casino industry. By 2009, I was making more working for the industry than as a professor, which allowed me to quit that job and become a full time consultant. My work over the years was primarily game design, slot machine design (and yes, Mickey, we mathematicians knew that the specifications they gave us permitted advantage play, but they didn't listen so we designed them anyway, e.g. the game that was 160%, the class 2 games were ripe), auditing of online casinos, and market research. And yes, all that changed in 2011 after I published that article on Mike's site about the Dragon 7 bet.

    After my website cardcounter.com got hacked by LVHCM in 2001, I got a phone call from a top AP who told me quite simply that I should shut down my site because, there are sociopaths and miscreants everywhere in the AP community. If you haven't read Abram's Alexander's take down of the AP community in their "Advanced Tactics in Casino Advantage Play" maybe you should review that. The way teams turn on each other. The gang like mentality that AP's have towards each other. I don't know what world you are living in to think that there should be anything interesting about such a lifestyle to everyone. That everyone secretly wants to be an AP. That is not true. It is just one of many false things you believe about yourself and others.

    And then there is your use of the words "evil, dark side." Those are as wrong as you can get. Casinos everywhere offer jobs, get people out of poverty, support schools, donate to good causes. Yes, gambling is a social issue. But so is tobacco and alcohol, but you don't go around saying everyone who works at a liquor store is on the "evil, dark side." They are just doing a job. You can hate anyone you want, you can think anyone you want to is "evil." It's a free country, and that freedom is supported by tax payers like me. But, I have better things to do than live my life in your world of sociopathic darkness and lies.

    I think you haven't read my essay on the word "evil" lately. I invite you to do so.

    https://www.888casino.com/blog/apheat/why-they-play

    So, you can have your simplistic black/white view of me, KewlJ, but it's wrong.

    I am not going to address your other points, though you are equally wrong on each of them. You seem to want to gain points with some sort of false family you think you have by spreading these rumours and lies. Your lying, threats and fabrications follow you everywhere in your life. How much you hate ... be careful, it will shorten your life.
    Very elegantly said Eliot! I’ve made most the same points you’ve made over on Blackjack the Forum and here, and usually get attacked. APs hate it when people don’t see the casinos as being evil, or the “dark side”.

    You’re brave playing ball over here because this site is more like Mad Max and the Road Warriors. About anything goes, but I still love it here since it’s real, and I don’t get censored. Over at BJTF, I got censored a couple times when I said something positive about casinos. I was never banned though. But I don’t like being censored so I came over here.

    This site also has some good intelligent conservatives, which are hard to find these days. I also have a warped sense of humor so I fit in over here.

    I too have a PhD and studied at a renowned Univeristy under a Nobel Laureate in one of the science fields. Since there are not too many Nobel prize winners in United States, I’d rather not say the University or his name, but he has been honored by the US Senate.

    Just think I worked with a Nobel laureate for 5 years and we had some disagreements, but never once did I get called stupid. I’ve noticed in the scientific community there is a little more respect for people’s opinions than in the AP world. Don has called me stupid a couple times, along with about everybody else at BJTF. To Norm’s credit, he never called me stupid.

    For the record I’m Dbs6582 over at BJF. I found out after I had two handles on two different sites this violates one of the AP’s code of conduct rules. Kj is still giving me a hard time about it, when he doesn’t have me on ignore. Many APs just put me on ignore, because they don’t like hearing opinions that don’t line up with theirs. It makes life interesting.

  2. #62
    I figured KJ's portrayal of Eliot as a "failed AP" was anything but accurate. My own guess was Eliot most likely soured on the vocation. It looks like he had eyes wide open the whole time. Anyways, KJ is known for creating "facts" to support his narrative.

    What I found in Eliot's latest post is one hell of a lot of truth. AP's competing against each other aren't bosom buddies. It's always been screw the other guy. Keeping information secret is the big thing. Don't let the other AP know how this play works. Don't let the other AP know that a play is going on in this casino, etc. That's the lightweight stuff. There have been threats. Ratting out of plays to management.

    Tricks to get rid of competition. Three AP's, A, B, and C are on a play. Everyone is paranoid of heat coming down. A and B form an alliance. B disappears for awhile. A tells C that B got the tap on the shoulder. C gets scared and quits the play. B returns. Now only 2 working the play.

    This is what I find most peculiar. An AP doesn't give me a clue about anything. I have to find the stuff all on my own. Then if I tell anyone about it I'm a traitor. A traitor to what? That AP didn't show a damn bit of loyalty to me. Why should I show that asshole any loyalty?
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  3. #63
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Darkoz View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    have you ever met a math genius that wasn't?
    Personal insult to the Wizard

    Oops, wrong forum.
    He already knows, excepts and embraces it. Compared to some of these guys I have met he would be considered totally normal.

    Now imagine someone who's very peculiar and yet they are are not too smart or savvy.
    Jeez, every thread comes back to Rob.

  4. #64
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    His story is that he failed at our side of the table and then went to the evil, dark side.
    I wish I had Mickey's eloquence, but there is so much missing here logically, I can't begin to unravel it. But, let's give it a try.

    First of all, I did not FAIL at *your side.* I was a winning red-chip player, primarily card counting and hole-carding 3CP. I think my best year was about +$6000. So, yeah, definitely not an aspiring professional.

    Back in 2002 I got a call from a hole-card team, I think it was 1 AM, and they were asking me to fly to Reno, and I said no because I was giving a mid-term the next day. The point is that I had a job I liked, being a professor at one of the top universities in the world, that paid well, gave me health insurance and retirement, and was something I enjoyed doing. So no, I didn't *fail* -- I chose a different job. One that benefits society. One that holds a position of prestige. One that paid well and had substantial benefits. Not everyone can do what I can do -- get a Ph.D. in mathematics and get tenured at a research University -- a lifetime job with very few demands. I can only imagine that if you had my drive and educational opportunities you might have made a better choice for yourself.

    In 2003, Stanford Wong told me quite directly, Eliot, you have proven to yourself that you can beat these games. I can tell there is nothing left in this for you. Many years ago, Snyder wrote an essay about loving blackjack and gambling, and that without that love, you could never be a professional. I didn't love it from day one, and that was clear to anyone who knew me. I did't enjoy the smoke, crowds, long days, heat & exhaustion. There is nothing about being a full-time professional AP that was ever of interest to me. I did't enjoy producing nothing of value. I did't enjoy no medical insurance or retirement. I did't enjoy the vast sociopathic brotherhood who will turn on each other in an instant. The drugs. The physical danger. For what? To play a game?

    I continued on as a professor until 2009, while building up my clientele in the casino industry. By 2009, I was making more working for the industry than as a professor, which allowed me to quit that job and become a full time consultant. My work over the years was primarily game design, slot machine design (and yes, Mickey, we mathematicians knew that the specifications they gave us permitted advantage play, but they didn't listen so we designed them anyway, e.g. the game that was 160%, the class 2 games were ripe), auditing of online casinos, and market research. And yes, all that changed in 2011 after I published that article on Mike's site about the Dragon 7 bet.

    After my website cardcounter.com got hacked by LVHCM in 2001, I got a phone call from a top AP who told me quite simply that I should shut down my site because, there are sociopaths and miscreants everywhere in the AP community. If you haven't read Abram's Alexander's take down of the AP community in their "Advanced Tactics in Casino Advantage Play" maybe you should review that. The way teams turn on each other. The gang like mentality that AP's have towards each other. I don't know what world you are living in to think that there should be anything interesting about such a lifestyle to everyone. That everyone secretly wants to be an AP. That is not true. It is just one of many false things you believe about yourself and others.

    And then there is your use of the words "evil, dark side." Those are as wrong as you can get. Casinos everywhere offer jobs, get people out of poverty, support schools, donate to good causes. Yes, gambling is a social issue. But so is tobacco and alcohol, but you don't go around saying everyone who works at a liquor store is on the "evil, dark side." They are just doing a job. You can hate anyone you want, you can think anyone you want to is "evil." It's a free country, and that freedom is supported by tax payers like me. But, I have better things to do than live my life in your world of sociopathic darkness and lies.

    I think you haven't read my essay on the word "evil" lately. I invite you to do so.

    https://www.888casino.com/blog/apheat/why-they-play

    So, you can have your simplistic black/white view of me, KewlJ, but it's wrong.

    I am not going to address your other points, though you are equally wrong on each of them. You seem to want to gain points with some sort of false family you think you have by spreading these rumours and lies. Your lying, threats and fabrications follow you everywhere in your life. How much you hate ... be careful, it will shorten your life.
    Hey great post Eliot! You got in there how AP's are evil. "Sociopathic brotherhood". "Gang-like mentality". "The drugs". "Physical danger". And best of all, the old standby, contribute nothing. Now let's see how you describe the casino industry: "Casinos offer jobs, get people out of poverty, support schools, donate to good causes". Oh isn't that sweet! So you are the knight in shining amour working for the good guys to rid the world of the evil AP's. Pretty much confirms everything I knew and said about you, sir.

    The rest of the post appears to be your resume. I am not hiring you so I have no need for it. But congratulations on that $6000 year....your best year.

    I mean do you realize this post basically confirms everything I said. Failed AP, turned traitor. AP's Evil. Casinos the good guy.


    Look, I don't know why you have all the sudden re-emerged. You retired no? Road off into the sunset. I think I read where you said you were bored with this shutdown, so thought you would hit the forums and stir up some shit? Isn't that what you said? Well mission accomplished.

    Look, earlier in this thread, when this drama was still confined to the NormForum, I said Don had his say which he obviously needed to say and having done that, he should just let it go. I am going to take my advise and do that. I had my say. You are never going to change my mind.....as a matter of fact your comments confirmed nearly everything I thought. So I am not going to just continue with the back and forth. Nor am I calling for you to "get the fuck out" like Don did. This forum is actually perfect for you and your agenda, so do what you need to do.

    Again, congratulations on that $6000 year. I stand corrected about your success as an AP and the bitterness that followed leading to you turning "traitor".
    Last edited by kewlJ; 05-26-2020 at 06:31 PM.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  5. #65
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Again, congratulations on that $6000 year. I stand corrected about your success as an AP and the bitterness that followed leading to you turning "traitor".
    Just to be clear, I wasn't bragging about that, unlike your relentless bragging about your 1M.

    You, who fakes his death, who said you would stalk Mike to the end of his days, who whines endlessly on every website you join about everything, who blames everything on everyone else and never takes responsibility, you then choose to troll me?!

    You are a troll. Join the club with Don. No, you are two steps above Don in that ability. Congratulations on a life well-lived.

    I have very little to do, secluded here at home in these COVID days. You are an easy target. There are some who make arguments that actually require some thought to refute. You are easy, you are a lying troll, and I am bored. That's the reason.
    Last edited by Eliot; 05-26-2020 at 07:23 PM.

  6. #66
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Again, congratulations on that $6000 year. I stand corrected about your success as an AP and the bitterness that followed leading to you turning "traitor".
    Just to be clear, I wasn't bragging about that, unlike your relentless bragging about your 1M.

    You, who fakes his death, who said you would stalk Mike to the end of his days, who whines endlessly on every website you join about everything, who blames everything on everyone else and never takes responsibility, you then choose to troll me?!

    You are a troll. Join the club with Don. No, you are two steps above Don in that ability. Congratulations on a life well lived.

    I have very little to do, secluded here at home in these COVID days. You are an easy target. There are some who make arguments that actually require some thought to refute. You are easy, you are a lying troll, and I am bored. That's the reason.
    Yet again, you just proved your bitterness. This isn't about me and what I have made as an AP, but if you are going to throw it out there, I am well above 1M. I hit that 4 years ago! You just mentioning that, which has nothing to do with the discussion yet again proves what this is about. You are bitter with your advantage play results. Don't blame me for that. You certainly understood the math, so what was the problem? Were you afraid to put the fucking money out? Whatever that is your issue.

    AS per a life well lived. I am in my 30's for Christ sakes! I think I am doing ok.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  7. #67
    I'd be more interested in Eliot's thoughts about MDawgs baccarat "skills."

  8. #68
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    I'd be more interested in Eliot's thoughts about MDawgs baccarat "skills."
    Total B.S. Period. Nothing more to say, that's for sure.

  9. #69
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    I'd be more interested in Eliot's thoughts about MDawgs baccarat "skills."
    Total B.S. Period. Nothing more to say, that's for sure.
    Pretty much sums up what I figured you'd say. And I agree with you about it also.

  10. #70
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Again, congratulations on that $6000 year. I stand corrected about your success as an AP and the bitterness that followed leading to you turning "traitor".
    Just to be clear, I wasn't bragging about that, unlike your relentless bragging about your 1M.

    You, who fakes his death, who said you would stalk Mike to the end of his days, who whines endlessly on every website you join about everything, who blames everything on everyone else and never takes responsibility, you then choose to troll me?!

    You are a troll. Join the club with Don. No, you are two steps above Don in that ability. Congratulations on a life well lived.

    I have very little to do, secluded here at home in these COVID days. You are an easy target. There are some who make arguments that actually require some thought to refute. You are easy, you are a lying troll, and I am bored. That's the reason.
    Yet again, you just proved your bitterness. This isn't about me and what I have made as an AP, but if you are going to throw it out there, I am well above 1M. I hit that 4 years ago! You just mentioning that, which has nothing to do with the discussion yet again proves what this is about. You are bitter with your advantage play results. Don't blame me for that. You certainly understood the math, so what was the problem? Were you afraid to put the fucking money out? Whatever that is your issue.

    AS per a life well lived. I am in my 30's for Christ sakes! I think I am doing ok.
    KJocchio wants to keep getting digs in about how much eliot made. It's a complete misrepresentation. KJ, how much did you make your first year? More importantly, why don't you tell us how much Thorp made AP'ing.

    And when you finally get so much shit on your nose that Shack reinstates you to WoV we all want to see you call out Bob Dancer on giving seminars to casino execs. Remember, you said you call this kind of thing out whereever you see it. So let's see you go after Shack's friend, Bob Dancer.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  11. #71
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Just to be clear, I wasn't bragging about that, unlike your relentless bragging about your 1M.

    You, who fakes his death, who said you would stalk Mike to the end of his days, who whines endlessly on every website you join about everything, who blames everything on everyone else and never takes responsibility, you then choose to troll me?!

    You are a troll. Join the club with Don. No, you are two steps above Don in that ability. Congratulations on a life well lived.

    I have very little to do, secluded here at home in these COVID days. You are an easy target. There are some who make arguments that actually require some thought to refute. You are easy, you are a lying troll, and I am bored. That's the reason.
    Yet again, you just proved your bitterness. This isn't about me and what I have made as an AP, but if you are going to throw it out there, I am well above 1M. I hit that 4 years ago! You just mentioning that, which has nothing to do with the discussion yet again proves what this is about. You are bitter with your advantage play results. Don't blame me for that. You certainly understood the math, so what was the problem? Were you afraid to put the fucking money out? Whatever that is your issue.

    AS per a life well lived. I am in my 30's for Christ sakes! I think I am doing ok.
    KJocchio wants to keep getting digs in about how much eliot made. It's a complete misrepresentation. KJ, how much did you make your first year? More importantly, why don't you tell us how much Thorp made AP'ing.
    Also, to me the bigger point is who cares how someone makes their money, as long as they are doing it legally. I’m pretty sure Eliot makes a lot more than Kj, so that makes Eliot more successful, if we’re judging people by income.

    Contrary to what Kj thinks, there is nothing special about making money by being an AP.

    Who would most people rather be, a low-level AP, who only makes about $100,000 a year, or a rich lawyer, who makes about $1 to $2 million a year, but losses about $100,000 to $200,000 a year in casinos?

    I (and I expect most people) would rather be the rich lawyer who enjoys going to Vegas a couple times a year and being treated like royalty and loses some money. I expect Kj would rather be the low-level AP earning $100,000 a year since he thinks anybody who goes to casinos for fun is stupid.

    This is a real example since I know both these people. One, Kj (the low-level AP) I know through forums, and the other one, a rich lawyer, I know through my former gf.

  12. #72
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post

    Yet again, you just proved your bitterness. This isn't about me and what I have made as an AP, but if you are going to throw it out there, I am well above 1M. I hit that 4 years ago! You just mentioning that, which has nothing to do with the discussion yet again proves what this is about. You are bitter with your advantage play results. Don't blame me for that. You certainly understood the math, so what was the problem? Were you afraid to put the fucking money out? Whatever that is your issue.

    AS per a life well lived. I am in my 30's for Christ sakes! I think I am doing ok.
    KJocchio wants to keep getting digs in about how much eliot made. It's a complete misrepresentation. KJ, how much did you make your first year? More importantly, why don't you tell us how much Thorp made AP'ing.
    Also, to me the bigger point is who cares how someone makes their money, as long as they are doing it legally. I’m pretty sure Eliot makes a lot more than Kj, so that makes Eliot more successful, if we’re judging people by income.

    Contrary to what Kj thinks, there is nothing special about making money by being an AP.

    Who would most people rather be, a low-level AP, who only makes about $100,000 a year, or a rich lawyer, who makes about $1 to $2 million a year, but losses about $100,000 to $200,000 a year in casinos?

    I (and I expect most people) would rather be the rich lawyer who enjoys going to Vegas a couple times a year and being treated like royalty and loses some money. I expect Kj would rather be the low-level AP earning $100,000 a year since he thinks anybody who goes to casinos for fun is stupid.

    This is a real example since I know both these people. One, Kj (the low-level AP) I know through forums, and the other one, a rich lawyer, I know through my former gf.
    There are successful attorneys making that type of dough. But there are plenty that make less than I do as an AP.

    Gambling is just too much fun. Every time I go to my dentist a number of them come in to listen to my AP stories. They clearly wish they were doing it themselves.

    Also, I am not quite clear on your definition of "low-level". Most of America (which claims they are about to commit suicide because they are out of work for like 3 months) would not consider a person who makes $100,000 per year at AP low-level.

  13. #73
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Again, congratulations on that $6000 year. I stand corrected about your success as an AP and the bitterness that followed leading to you turning "traitor".
    Just to be clear, I wasn't bragging about that, unlike your relentless bragging about your 1M.

    You, who fakes his death, who said you would stalk Mike to the end of his days, who whines endlessly on every website you join about everything, who blames everything on everyone else and never takes responsibility, you then choose to troll me?!

    You are a troll. Join the club with Don. No, you are two steps above Don in that ability. Congratulations on a life well-lived.

    I have very little to do, secluded here at home in these COVID days. You are an easy target. There are some who make arguments that actually require some thought to refute. You are easy, you are a lying troll, and I am bored. That's the reason.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. #74
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    You are easy, you are a lying troll, and I am bored. That's the reason.
    It's one thing to call queerJ all kinds of derogatory names but I draw the line at Lying Troll.
    That's just mean.
    Pure Evil!!

  15. #75
    Originally Posted by Darkoz View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    KJocchio wants to keep getting digs in about how much eliot made. It's a complete misrepresentation. KJ, how much did you make your first year? More importantly, why don't you tell us how much Thorp made AP'ing.
    Also, to me the bigger point is who cares how someone makes their money, as long as they are doing it legally. I’m pretty sure Eliot makes a lot more than Kj, so that makes Eliot more successful, if we’re judging people by income.

    Contrary to what Kj thinks, there is nothing special about making money by being an AP.

    Who would most people rather be, a low-level AP, who only makes about $100,000 a year, or a rich lawyer, who makes about $1 to $2 million a year, but losses about $100,000 to $200,000 a year in casinos?

    I (and I expect most people) would rather be the rich lawyer who enjoys going to Vegas a couple times a year and being treated like royalty and loses some money. I expect Kj would rather be the low-level AP earning $100,000 a year since he thinks anybody who goes to casinos for fun is stupid.

    This is a real example since I know both these people. One, Kj (the low-level AP) I know through forums, and the other one, a rich lawyer, I know through my former gf.
    There are successful attorneys making that type of dough. But there are plenty that make less than I do as an AP.

    Gambling is just too much fun. Every time I go to my dentist a number of them come in to listen to my AP stories. They clearly wish they were doing it themselves.

    Also, I am not quite clear on your definition of "low-level". Most of America (which claims they are about to commit suicide because they are out of work for like 3 months) would not consider a person who makes $100,000 per year at AP low-level.
    I guess I said low-level since I’ve seen Kj say something like that about himself. And if you listen to any of the bj pros on GWAE, like Yoshi and Joe, $100,000 would be considered low-level. They are claiming to make in the $500,000 to million range per year. And the guy who just made a documentary on bj, I think he claimed to make like $700,000 in a year.

    Of course in any profession there are people not making much. The same is true with professors at universities. The salaries of the ones who teach at public universities is public information so you can look it up. You’d be shocked at the range of salaries of these profs. The big time ones make some major money, while the lower level ones make about what a school teacher makes in one of the northeastern liberal states.

    Yeah, I get it, AP stories can be fun. But real work life stories can be fun. I guess you just have to find a profession that you enjoy and stick with it.

    But it’s hard to see Kj enjoying his life because he picks a fight with everybody, and I mean everybody. He must have some underlying issues he’s dealing with, or maybe he should look for another job, which can give his life some meaning.

  16. #76
    Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?
    It is netiquette 101 to not confront folks about their spelling or grammar on forums. Don has been a grammar troll for more than 25 years on the forums on which he has participated. I have freely called him out for this behavior on multiple occasions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etique...ogy#Netiquette

    "When someone makes a mistake—whether it's a spelling error or a spelling flame, a stupid question or an unnecessarily long answer—be kind about it. If it's a minor error, you may not need to say anything. Even if you feel strongly about it, think twice before reacting. Having good manners yourself doesn't give you license to correct everyone else. If you do decide to inform someone of a mistake, point it out politely, and preferably by private email rather than in public. Give people the benefit of the doubt; assume they just don't know any better. And never be arrogant or self-righteous about it."


    In addition, what is the most famous thing Don is known for? The I-18. Here is part of what I wrote back in 2014.

    In Blackjack Attack, Schlesinger wrote:

    If you are a practicing hi-lo player and have diligently committed to memory 150 to 200 index numbers, you may be interested to learn that for this particular game and style of play, you might as well throw 90% of your numbers away and keep just the “Illustrious 18.” On the other hand, if you have just mastered true count and were about to embark upon your study of the index-number matrix, I have saved you a great deal of work. Learn the plays in the chart and forget about the rest. You can trust me that you won’t be missing much."


    To which I replied:

    When I was counting cards, it never occurred to me that less knowledge might be a good thing. Although I was not a professional AP, I took card counting seriously. To me, mastering index plays was part of beating the game. As a professional and academic, I cannot see why anyone would want less when they can have more. Giving up knowledge is giving up opportunity. It’s giving up on life. Advocating intellectual laziness seems antithetical to what being an AP is all about.

    https://www.888casino.com/blog/black...illustrious-18
    Last edited by Eliot; 05-27-2020 at 09:08 AM.

  17. #77
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    KJocchio wants to keep getting digs in about how much eliot made. It's a complete misrepresentation. KJ, how much did you make your first year?
    I made just over 10k my first year. I was 20 at the time I started. But Eliot didn't say he made $6000 his first year. He said he made $6000 his best year. What someone make isn't all that relevant. It only is here because I set the narrative that Eliot failed as a AP and that is why he went to the other side. He answered back telling us that he didn't fail but was successful. And then proceeded to tell us he made $6000 on his best year. Can I ask what was the worst? Regardless, doesn't sound like a person that had much success APing....which is what I said.

    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    And when you finally get so much shit on your nose that Shack reinstates you to WoV we all want to see you call out Bob Dancer on giving seminars to casino execs. Remember, you said you call this kind of thing out whereever you see it. So let's see you go after Shack's friend, Bob Dancer.
    No, you are mixing things up in your mind mickey. I said I call out people like Rob and the guy at Norm's forum, using phony math defying claims, whenever I see it. And there was a caveat with that that they had to keep going and going with it, to the point that I felt like or evidence showed they were harming other players.

    The people in the community that have gone to the other side is a different issue that you are mixing in. Frankly I am not crazy about that either and have stated that about everyone I was associated with that I know did so, Wong, Max Rubin, Mike Shackleford, along with Eliot. I haven't made a crusade against these people, because they have a right to do what they want. I have made my point and let it go. Including with Eliot. I didn't bring it up here railing on Eliot. Someone else started a thread and asked if he was really a traitor. I answered as per my view. So I have brought up my feeling on this matter with all those people involved.

    Bob Dancer, I don't know as much about because I am less a VP guy and more in the blackjack end of things. You and several other people say he was also a traitor. Fine, I think that is sleazy of Bob Dancer as well.

    Thorpe? Thorpe was 60 years ago. Well before my time. Long before I was born. And Thorpe isn't an active member of the blackjack and AP community. I only recently learned of Thorpe working with the Dark side. I think that was sleazy.

    I am an AP. We are at war with the casino industry who does everything in their power legal and illegal to stop us. I don't like the casino industry and I dont like people from our side that go over and help them.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  18. #78
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    What has Eliot done to so piss off Don?
    It is netiquette 101 to not confront folks about their spelling or grammar on forums. Don has been a grammar troll for more than 25 years on the forums on which he has participated. I have freely called him out for this behavior on multiple occasions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etique...ogy#Netiquette

    "When someone makes a mistake—whether it's a spelling error or a spelling flame, a stupid question or an unnecessarily long answer—be kind about it. If it's a minor error, you may not need to say anything. Even if you feel strongly about it, think twice before reacting. Having good manners yourself doesn't give you license to correct everyone else. If you do decide to inform someone of a mistake, point it out politely, and preferably by private email rather than in public. Give people the benefit of the doubt; assume they just don't know any better. And never be arrogant or self-righteous about it."



    "When someone makes a mistake—whether it's a spelling error or a spelling flame, a stupid question or an unnecessarily long answer—be kind about it. If it's a minor error, you may not need to say anything. Even if you feel strongly about it, think twice before reacting. Having good manners yourself doesn't give you license to correct everyone else. If you do decide to inform someone of a mistake, point it out politely, and preferably by private email rather than in public. Give people the benefit of the doubt; assume they just don't know any better. And never be arrogant or self-righteous about it."[/I]
    Come on Eliot, THAT explosion by Don over the weekend was not about you calling him out for being the spelling/grammar police. Obviously you two have a long history and Don had some things he wanted to say. I think that is fine, just like I said what I needed to say. It doesn't mean you can't or should participate here or at the NormForum if you want. Don was wrong for insisting that.

    And BTW, Don's spelling/grammar police routine is one of my least favorite things about Don. I am about the worst offender with spelling/grammar on these forums. And believe it or not I try to do as well as I can. Almost every post of mine you will see where I have edited to try to get things correct and still am awful. There is nothing that irks me more than you are having a good discussion, ask a question that you are looking for an answer that can help you and Don hijacks it with a spelling grammar response.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  19. #79
    Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    In addition, what is the most famous thing Don is known for? The I-18. Here is part of what I wrote back in 2014.

    In Blackjack Attack, Schlesinger wrote:

    If you are a practicing hi-lo player and have diligently committed to memory 150 to 200 index numbers, you may be interested to learn that for this particular game and style of play, you might as well throw 90% of your numbers away and keep just the “Illustrious 18.” On the other hand, if you have just mastered true count and were about to embark upon your study of the index-number matrix, I have saved you a great deal of work. Learn the plays in the chart and forget about the rest. You can trust me that you won’t be missing much."


    To which I replied:

    When I was counting cards, it never occurred to me that less knowledge might be a good thing. Although I was not a professional AP, I took card counting seriously. To me, mastering index plays was part of beating the game. As a professional and academic, I cannot see why anyone would want less when they can have more. Giving up knowledge is giving up opportunity. It’s giving up on life. Advocating intellectual laziness seems antithetical to what being an AP is all about.

    https://www.888casino.com/blog/black...illustrious-18
    Good a blackjack discussion.

    I disagree with almost everything you said here Eliot and not because it is you saying it. All those index plays and even higher level counts are just not what is important in today's game which for most players is shoe games with mediocre penetration. The term I will throw at you or anyone endorsing more than a handful of index plays is "diminishing returns". I can appreciate that as a math purist, you want to squeeze every last drop of advantage, but plays that add .0002 percent to the advantage are just not worth anything. It isn't about being lazy. On the contrary, it is about being productive and efficient and they are just so much better things a player can do with that time and effort that do make a significant difference.

    If you possess a time machine (and a guy like you just might) and can travel back to the 1980's with different (better) games and conditions, yeah, higher counts and more index plays would matter and be worth the effort. But that is just not what it takes to win in today's world. Keep it simple and focus on things that significantly increase results and maybe more importantly increase longevity. Because that is what it is about. All the math in the world does you no good if they won't let you play.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  20. #80
    Here goes KJ with his community garbage again.

    And he gets involved in another “feud”.

    Who didn’t see this coming? The Drama Queen lives for it.

    By the way Eliot, welcome and hopefully you are enjoying retirement. Not getting into the debate about what you do or did, but I will say you were always a courteous poster at WoV. I also understand not everything sees it that way. But we never will know exactly what Mike did for the Venetian either. Or who else has done what.

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