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Thread: Going back to my roots: Skilled Based (Slot) Games

  1. #1
    The casinos crowds are much less now than reopening week. Hard Rock was the only large casino in town for a 2.5 hour driving radius and you could see the Reno hustlers setting camp. Now, Hard Rock is dead or slow on the weekends. Ditto for Thunder Valley and ghost towns for the smaller casinos during the week.

    Too many bonus machines are turned off or not operational and the hustlers are constantly checking the few that are operational.

    I am going back to playing games of skill like VBJ or VP or slot machines that I won’t disclose. The modus operandus is lose on the game and make up it on points into free slot play, promo’s, mailers, etc. It is a lot work practicing the games, losing money and then waiting until next month’s welfare checks. For starters, my comp balances have exploded.

    There is one game that gets me an insane amounts of points. In the past, I have to play at off hours, now the machine is empty most of the time. I actually spent years giving away info to beat this game in another forum. When a game manufacturer creates a slot, it makes certain assumptions about randomness and this company never realized how one aspect could be exploited. Don’t get me wrong, over the years the manufacturer has updated its pRNG software as well as other countermeasures. But at the end of the day it’s a game of skill of a house edge of 50 bp. If I can get the house edge less than 30 bp, I start to make money off the casino’s marketing programs.

    I will give an example of a game that is gone. There was a video version of Ultimate Texas Hold’em and you can count the outs. The house edge is roughly 50 bp (58 bp using Element of Risk per WoO). I don’t play live Poker so I had to learn to count outs and use the advance strategy by Grosjean. So with skill, I was able to reduce the house edge (I played multiple stations to see more players cards) and make money on promo days and mailers. It was work. The drain between premium hands was large. And it was a grind.

    Here’s a link if you want the strategy card: https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/shop...texas-hold-em/

    My point is rather than waste time walking around in a sea of too many hustlers chasing limited plays, I can go to my empty machine, run some coin in and make predictable money. Some casinos never change the structure of their promo’s (different theme for each month as it’s July 4th themed for next month). I’ll spend a couple hours afterwards making my rounds and then it’s back home.

    There are many of these skilled based slot games that APs do not share and if someone told you the angle, you would probably get upset for not seeing it. UTHE required counting outs & an advanced strategy to reduce the house edge, which can make it a play in the right environment.

    It was very easy for me to run $10K to $20K at low risk through video UTHE in a day using multiple seats.

  2. #2
    This is a site I used to help learn how to beat Video UTHE, understand hand rankings (based on EV’s), especially relative rankings, etc since I don’t play live poker.

    There are 169 starting hands in HE. Q5 off-suited is the lowest hand above an EV of 0.50. (Btw, in 3-cd Poker, basic strategy is Q64 off-suited or better to raise). J5 suited is just under the 0.5 EV cut off. Basically the Queen is the most likely the deal breaker.

    http://jazbo.com/poker/huholdem.html

    I will send via PMs some of the Slot based games of skills to know in case the right situation manifest itself. As Seneca once stated: “Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.” You need to be prepared.

  3. #3
    UTHE as a table game makes a lot of money for various reasons; two reasons are Yahoo’s reluctance to make the correct X wager (like flopping Ace & another card and not betting 4X on pre-flop of community cards) and a lot of them would fold & sometimes they should play the board but they don’t.

    To beat Video UTHE, you have to start challenging basic assumptions. Is the house edge roughly 50 bp? If you count cards, then obviously the house edge is REDUCED! What about increased “penetration” or the ability to see more cards? There are 5 stations so you could see all 10 player cards and 5 board cards aka the community cards. That is 15 cards to work with. Again, the house edge assumes heads up and optimal play.... it DOES NOT ASSUME card counters that will reduce the edge. Again, it’s about counting outs.

    Take a hand like pocket ducks (flopping a pair of deuces). It’s not a strong hand. Jazbo’s ranking has 22 almost above Q5 off-suited. However, if you see there are no ducks in the other 8 players cards pre-flop of board cards, your pocket ducks is now more valuable due to having seen 8 more cards (e.g. the odds of catching at least one duck in the 5 next board cards just went up). Obviously this is an example.

    Again, my point is there are these games of skill that involve SLOT MACHINES that if you challenge an assumption and you prove true, the house edge will be reduced. That now becomes a game changer and not something APs want to share.

    These skill-based slot machines are hiding in plain sight. Not even the casinos know about it because not even the game manufacturer put in place the correct counter measures. I am playing these games and driving to different casinos because the benefits are that attractive and rewarding.

  4. #4
    1. Here is a nice article on counting outs in Holde’Em

    http://www.pokerology.com/lessons/drawing-odds/

    2. Here is Steve Howe of Discountgambling.net article on UTHE with “applet”

    https://discountgambling.net/ultimate-texas-holdem/

    3. Howe’s advance work on “collusion” or using more information that the casino / game designer did not factor in when calculating the house edge.

    https://discountgambling.net/2010/01...-texas-holdem/

    Per Howe, if no outs are seen, then your pocket ducks are 4X (if you can afford the swings) pre-flop board cards if there are 5 players.

    This is why having Jazbo’s exact calculations and hand rankings are so important so you can develop a matrix based strategy (btw, Jazbo’s strategy cards for VP are matrix based).


    There is a reason why some people are called APs and the rest of you are either scavengers or vultures or both. There is a lot of work required to be an AP-grade in this game.

    The strategy card by Grosjean is $6 plus S&H and Howe’s info is free.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    1. Here is a nice article on counting outs in Holde’Em

    http://www.pokerology.com/lessons/drawing-odds/

    2. Here is Steve Howe of Discountgambling.net article on UTHE with “applet”

    https://discountgambling.net/ultimate-texas-holdem/

    3. Howe’s advance work on “collusion” or using more information that the casino / game designer did not factor in when calculating the house edge.

    https://discountgambling.net/2010/01...-texas-holdem/

    Per Howe, if no outs are seen, then your pocket ducks are 4X (if you can afford the swings) pre-flop board cards if there are 5 players.

    This is why having Jazbo’s exact calculations and hand rankings are so important so you can develop a matrix based strategy (btw, Jazbo’s strategy cards for VP are matrix based).


    There is a reason why some people are called APs and the rest of you are either scavengers or vultures or both. There is a lot of work required to be an AP-grade in this game.

    The strategy card by Grosjean is $6 plus S&H and Howe’s info is free.
    What is your take on teaming one of the 5 handed electronic UTH games? Could that ever be a worthwhile endeavor? Maybe 3 players with 2 playing 2 hands?
    Grandpa Newell is the GOAT

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    What is your take on teaming one of the 5 handed electronic UTH games? Could that ever be a worthwhile endeavor? Maybe 3 players with 2 playing 2 hands?
    Your questions are too vague so I cannot answer them. In this thread, I clearly stated it was work and I put $10K to $20K coin-in during promo’s like 3X days, etc. If the machine was empty, I played 3 seats but always played at least two seats (when crowded).

    So to help you decide, I went back to WoO site and it stated:
    “ The lower right cell shows a house edge of 2.185% per ante bet. What this means, for example, is if you bet $1 and both the Ante and Blind initially, then you can expect to lose 2.185 cents on average. However for comparison to other games I believe the Element of Risk is more appropriate to look at. The average total amount bet by the end of the hand is 4.152252 times the ante bet. So the element of risk would be 2.185%/4.152252 = 0.526%. The standard deviation, relative to the Ante bet, is 4.94.”

    So Element of Risk is 52.6 bp, which will be reduced with strategy deviations, increased penetration, etc.

    Maybe the slot rewards at your unnamed casino are so strong you can get away with basis strategy. Who knows?

    Btw, I can’t disclose Grosjean’s strategy because that is copyrighted and I don’t want to be on Grosjean’s bad side. Spend the $6 for the card and see if you can follow Grosjean’s strategy before making a decision.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Ex-AP View Post
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    What is your take on teaming one of the 5 handed electronic UTH games? Could that ever be a worthwhile endeavor? Maybe 3 players with 2 playing 2 hands?
    Your questions are too vague so I cannot answer them. In this thread, I clearly stated it was work and I put $10K to $20K coin-in during promo’s like 3X days, etc. If the machine was empty, I played 3 seats but always played at least two seats (when crowded).

    So to help you decide, I went back to WoO site and it stated:
    “ The lower right cell shows a house edge of 2.185% per ante bet. What this means, for example, is if you bet $1 and both the Ante and Blind initially, then you can expect to lose 2.185 cents on average. However for comparison to other games I believe the Element of Risk is more appropriate to look at. The average total amount bet by the end of the hand is 4.152252 times the ante bet. So the element of risk would be 2.185%/4.152252 = 0.526%. The standard deviation, relative to the Ante bet, is 4.94.”

    So Element of Risk is 52.6 bp, which will be reduced with strategy deviations, increased penetration, etc.

    Maybe the slot rewards at your unnamed casino are so strong you can get away with basis strategy. Who knows?

    Btw, I can’t disclose Grosjean’s strategy because that is copyrighted and I don’t want to be on Grosjean’s bad side. Spend the $6 for the card and see if you can follow Grosjean’s strategy before making a decision.
    I'm not talking about comps/rewards.

    https://www.888casino.com/blog/novel...ldem-collusion

    I've seen a 5 handed one but max bet was like $25 IIRC. The question I had how much 5 handed vs 6 handed took as far as the edge if you play semi-perfect and collude. rereading this blog it seems like a waste of time.

    Yes my question was vague. Was just random smalltalk about the subject.
    Grandpa Newell is the GOAT

  8. #8
    Each player handed on these things is dealt from an individual deck. You might be dealt Qh,2s while the hand next to you is dealt 5d, 2s. Collusion won't work.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Each player handed on these things is dealt from an individual deck. You might be dealt Qh,2s while the hand next to you is dealt 5d, 2s. Collusion won't work.
    1. Please stop hijacking this thread

    2. The Video UTHE uses one standard 52-card deck and all player cards were DEALT FACE UP. So collusion was not necessary since as many as 15 cards were dealt face up.

    Btw, ShuffleMaster also had a video Three Card Poker with all Player Cards dealt face up so you also see 15 cards. But alas, the house edge for video TCP was to great to overcome.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Each player handed on these things is dealt from an individual deck. You might be dealt Qh,2s while the hand next to you is dealt 5d, 2s. Collusion won't work.
    OOOOOOH I see what you mean. Hahah! I was explaining it to you, then reread what you said one last time and realized. Thank you for telling me this. Makes perfect sense and pretty obvious way to design the game... shucks.

    I knew it wasn't some sort of honey-hole, but seemed like a way to gamble having fun with positive expectation.
    Grandpa Newell is the GOAT

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Each player handed on these things is dealt from an individual deck. You might be dealt Qh,2s while the hand next to you is dealt 5d, 2s. Collusion won't work.
    OOOOOOH I see what you mean. Hahah! I was explaining it to you, then reread what you said one last time and realized. Thank you for telling me this. Makes perfect sense and pretty obvious way to design the game... shucks.

    I knew it wasn't some sort of honey-hole, but seemed like a way to gamble having fun with positive expectation.
    Depending on how the joint gives comps, points, etc., it still might be worthwhile.

    You'd be better off on a real table game though as just a few dealer errors a day can make UTH +EV

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Each player handed on these things is dealt from an individual deck. You might be dealt Qh,2s while the hand next to you is dealt 5d, 2s. Collusion won't work.
    OOOOOOH I see what you mean. Hahah! I was explaining it to you, then reread what you said one last time and realized. Thank you for telling me this. Makes perfect sense and pretty obvious way to design the game... shucks.

    I knew it wasn't some sort of honey-hole, but seemed like a way to gamble having fun with positive expectation.
    Depending on how the joint gives comps, points, etc., it still might be worthwhile.

    You'd be better off on a real table game though as just a few dealer errors a day can make UTH +EV
    I was in Vegas a couple years ago and came across a couple I knew from back home playing UTH. (poker players love this game) Anyway, they'd like pump fake scream the dealers hand. Apparently they saw someone do this once -it worked - and so they just kept doing it repeatedly.

    It literally had the very opposite effect as it was so obvious it just made the dealers paranoid. So dealers just slowed down and checked their work because it came obvious after the 2nd time.
    Grandpa Newell is the GOAT

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Each player handed on these things is dealt from an individual deck. You might be dealt Qh,2s while the hand next to you is dealt 5d, 2s. Collusion won't work.
    Check out how many times the 10 of diamonds appears:
    Name:  machine_uth_card_dupe.jpg
Views: 68
Size:  99.6 KB

  14. #14
    Exactly what I meant.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Exactly what I meant.
    Yes. You jogged my memory and I knew there was a picture of it out there.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Exactly what I meant.
    Yep, can't have a loutish mentally retarded thread without loutish mentally retarded picture.

    Just kidding, about the thread.
    Last edited by LMR; 06-30-2020 at 11:29 AM.

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