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Thread: "advanced slot tactic" that Prax from the GWAE podcast may have been referring to

  1. #21
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post

    I thought this same thing, but I was less than clear on why he would be in a spot where he needed to be so mobile he could not stay in a hotel.
    He mentioned a fear of bed bugs lol. I figured if he was running mail all over the place would have to be very mobile to pick up everything during the pickup dates especially if he was doing it over a large area.
    I think you and Prozema's guess is a good one - and, if the guess is correct, then what threw me is that Prax classifies it as an advanced slot tactic rather than an ABC move (I don't recall him mentioning it as an ABC move or mentioning it even at all).
    Yeah, he was incredibly vague. That's appropriate imho.

  2. #22
    Personally see no point in making a lot of money while living like a peasant. I have no idea if I'll wake up tomorrow.

  3. #23
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post

    He mentioned a fear of bed bugs lol. I figured if he was running mail all over the place would have to be very mobile to pick up everything during the pickup dates especially if he was doing it over a large area.
    I think you and Prozema's guess is a good one - and, if the guess is correct, then what threw me is that Prax classifies it as an advanced slot tactic rather than an ABC move (I don't recall him mentioning it as an ABC move or mentioning it even at all).
    Yeah, he was incredibly vague. That's appropriate imho.
    Yes, it's fine by me. He can classify it the way he wants and for whatever reason (discretion in this case) of course.

  4. #24
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post

    I think you and Prozema's guess is a good one - and, if the guess is correct, then what threw me is that Prax classifies it as an advanced slot tactic rather than an ABC move (I don't recall him mentioning it as an ABC move or mentioning it even at all).
    Yeah, he was incredibly vague. That's appropriate imho.
    Yes, it's fine by me. He can classify it the way he wants and for whatever reason (discretion in this case) of course.
    Also, another reason I think it might be mail and promos is he mentioned that they don’t need ploppies to put machines in advantageous states.

    So if its not mail and promos (with say high payback VP) it would have to be machines you could just jump on anytime and have an advantage. If those exist then “M” is probably not going to share that information and also be ok with him going on a podcast listened to be mostly APs in case he slipped and spilled the beans.

    Something like that would be a closely held secret i would think.

    Another clue was when he talked about banks of machines that can’t be held and people would put their jackets on them to hold them on the honor system. Sounds like a bunch of pros working promos at a high payback VP bank. (Or with a Progressive making it plus EV,)

    But hey what do I know lol? All speculation.

  5. #25
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Advantageplay View Post
    Wow, the above would be absolutely worthless. I could write a book on how that is 10000000000 percent not what they are doing. He also is a fool. He thinks he reinvented the wheel (prax) there is no new slot play that would be so advanced and so spur of the moment that he canít check into a room since he may be called instantly and have to leave
    Suppose there is a slot (with a Wager Saver feature) with 85% RTP and a wager saver bet is presented because the player wagered $10 and lost $9 of that $10 wager ($10 balance in the machine to start). Noting that .85x $10 is the value of the free spin we have:
    Wager Saver E(V) = (9/10)x (-1) + (1/10) x (the value of free spin) = (9/10)x -1 + (1/10) x .85 x $10 . So the Wager Saver E(V) is -$.05 .
    If you wager $1 (the wager saver bet) and lose $0.05 that means the RTP of the wager saver bet is 95% rather than the 85% RTP of the slot. In my original post I mentioned both that it was conjecture along with that it might be a possible move in a portfolio of what might be many different plays. So he may not have used it. Nonetheless making a 95% RTP bet on a machine with 85% RTP makes my statement true that you gain RTP from a wager saver bet in my opinion.
    Yeah except you lose $1 x 10, not x 9 like your incorrect formula.

    $1 goes in 10 times.
    $8.50 comes out.
    -$1.50
    $19 in coin in, worth about $.10
    Still -$1.40 to go...

  6. #26
    Originally Posted by 13BucksanHourAP View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Advantageplay View Post
    Wow, the above would be absolutely worthless. I could write a book on how that is 10000000000 percent not what they are doing. He also is a fool. He thinks he reinvented the wheel (prax) there is no new slot play that would be so advanced and so spur of the moment that he canít check into a room since he may be called instantly and have to leave
    Suppose there is a slot (with a Wager Saver feature) with 85% RTP and a wager saver bet is presented because the player wagered $10 and lost $9 of that $10 wager ($10 balance in the machine to start). Noting that .85x $10 is the value of the free spin we have:
    Wager Saver E(V) = (9/10)x (-1) + (1/10) x (the value of free spin) = (9/10)x -1 + (1/10) x .85 x $10 . So the Wager Saver E(V) is -$.05 .
    If you wager $1 (the wager saver bet) and lose $0.05 that means the RTP of the wager saver bet is 95% rather than the 85% RTP of the slot. In my original post I mentioned both that it was conjecture along with that it might be a possible move in a portfolio of what might be many different plays. So he may not have used it. Nonetheless making a 95% RTP bet on a machine with 85% RTP makes my statement true that you gain RTP from a wager saver bet in my opinion.
    Yeah except you lose $1 x 10, not x 9 like your incorrect formula.

    $1 goes in 10 times.
    $8.50 comes out.
    -$1.50
    $19 in coin in, worth about $.10
    Still -$1.40 to go...
    EVBandit/Ex-AP/13BucksanHourAP, it isn't my formula and it is not wrong. Check any of the thousands of statistics books on the subject if you don't believe me.
    Name:  expectation_formula.jpg
Views: 119
Size:  46.0 KB

    Since a wager saver bet wins with probability (amount won on bet which induced the wager saver/original bet size which induced the wager saver bet) where the amount won is a positive non-zero number less than the original bet size. The E(V) calculation is not incorrect. Please do not take my word for it. Look up the definition of expected value along with how the Wager Saver bet is calculated (Scientific Games/WMS website) if you don't believe me.
    Last edited by tableplay; 11-23-2020 at 04:50 AM.

  7. #27
    Originally Posted by 13BucksanHourAP View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Advantageplay View Post
    Wow, the above would be absolutely worthless. I could write a book on how that is 10000000000 percent not what they are doing. He also is a fool. He thinks he reinvented the wheel (prax) there is no new slot play that would be so advanced and so spur of the moment that he can’t check into a room since he may be called instantly and have to leave
    Suppose there is a slot (with a Wager Saver feature) with 85% RTP and a wager saver bet is presented because the player wagered $10 and lost $9 of that $10 wager ($10 balance in the machine to start). Noting that .85x $10 is the value of the free spin we have:
    Wager Saver E(V) = (9/10)x (-1) + (1/10) x (the value of free spin) = (9/10)x -1 + (1/10) x .85 x $10 . So the Wager Saver E(V) is -$.05 .
    If you wager $1 (the wager saver bet) and lose $0.05 that means the RTP of the wager saver bet is 95% rather than the 85% RTP of the slot. In my original post I mentioned both that it was conjecture along with that it might be a possible move in a portfolio of what might be many different plays. So he may not have used it. Nonetheless making a 95% RTP bet on a machine with 85% RTP makes my statement true that you gain RTP from a wager saver bet in my opinion.
    Yeah except you lose $1 x 10, not x 9 like your incorrect formula.

    $1 goes in 10 times.
    $8.50 comes out.
    -$1.50
    $19 in coin in, worth about $.10
    Still -$1.40 to go...
    If you want, take a look at "https://youtu.be/vCwYN7NFm5E?t=67" .
    You will see that a winning Wager Saver bet returns the Wager Saver bet plus the win from the free spin won on the Wager Saver bet.

  8. #28
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by 13BucksanHourAP View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post

    Suppose there is a slot (with a Wager Saver feature) with 85% RTP and a wager saver bet is presented because the player wagered $10 and lost $9 of that $10 wager ($10 balance in the machine to start). Noting that .85x $10 is the value of the free spin we have:
    Wager Saver E(V) = (9/10)x (-1) + (1/10) x (the value of free spin) = (9/10)x -1 + (1/10) x .85 x $10 . So the Wager Saver E(V) is -$.05 .
    If you wager $1 (the wager saver bet) and lose $0.05 that means the RTP of the wager saver bet is 95% rather than the 85% RTP of the slot. In my original post I mentioned both that it was conjecture along with that it might be a possible move in a portfolio of what might be many different plays. So he may not have used it. Nonetheless making a 95% RTP bet on a machine with 85% RTP makes my statement true that you gain RTP from a wager saver bet in my opinion.
    Yeah except you lose $1 x 10, not x 9 like your incorrect formula.

    $1 goes in 10 times.
    $8.50 comes out.
    -$1.50
    $19 in coin in, worth about $.10
    Still -$1.40 to go...
    If you want, take a look at "https://youtu.be/vCwYN7NFm5E?t=67" .
    You will see that a winning Wager Saver bet returns the Wager Saver bet plus the win from the free spin won on the Wager Saver bet.
    That video shows that I'm correct and you're wrong, thanks.

    7 minutes 57 seconds into the video -
    $4.64 Wager Saver bet is placed and won resulting in a $6 spin
    $6 spin results in a $2.76 base spin win and a bonus win of $72 for a $74.76 win
    Machine credits after win - $74.76

    The $4.64 bet is lost - it is not retuned like you claim. Show me where those $4.64 in wager saver credits are returned to player when he wins the wager saver?

  9. #29
    Originally Posted by 13BucksanHourAP View Post

    That video shows that I'm correct and you're wrong, thanks.
    You're welcome. I had stated that the Wager Saver exploration was conjecture (https://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sh...l=1#post115465) and the conjecture was wrong:

    Name:  conjecture.jpg
Views: 89
Size:  5.6 KB

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