Contributing to Forum ??

[Keystone]

I wonder which sport, historically, was more crooked: horse racing or boxing?

The mob had its mitts in both, but I`d definitely say horse racing....Only so many ways to fix a fight. In horse racing there`s numerous

[Mission146]

I wonder which sport, historically, was more crooked: horse racing or boxing?

The mob had its mitts in both, but I`d definitely say horse racing....Only so many ways to fix a fight. In horse racing there`s numerous

I imagine more fighters personally care about whether or not they win than horses.

[MisterV]

I imagine more fighters personally care about whether or not they win than horses.

Cute.

I recall reading how "back in the day" boxing was mob-controlled, that the mob "owned" certain fighters and fixed fights.

Any idea as to which fighters in particular were mob-controlled?

[regnis]

Yeah, let's just avoid any fighting in this thread, if you guys would be so kind this one time. I'm interested in this horse racing stuff---but Blackhole is going to have to essentially act like I'm a two-year old because I know nothing about it---hence all the questions.

While blackhole's 2 posts on horseracing are easily his biggest contribution to the foum on topic of gambling, because he has contributed zero eles on topic, just trolled, I would advice against putting much value in anything he says. Like everything else, he relays an opinion that is very negative and jaded. While we have all heard of occasional races being "fixed" scandels, if what blackhole is saying was anywhere close to being true, image all the players that would be involved in the fixing of damn near every race as he tells it. Different jockeys, owners, trainers, grooms, race track officials like timers. That would be hundreds of people involved in these crimes, and then if this were industry wide....at how many tracks 50? 100?. Over how many years/decades now? That would be 10's of thousands of people involved, as blackhole tells it....as he says the industry is run.

You don't think somewhere along the line these accusations would be made public? Give me a break. This is just a guy with conspiracy theories and nagativity about everything.

The truth is probably something much closer to this. Perhaps blackhole was a horse owner at the lower level. They even have programs where people can own a 'share' of a horse. So perhaps he owned a share of a horse or two or even owned a horse outright. No doubt, at the low end, a low claimer. So blackhole's horse(s) didn't do very well. No surprise. So he has a conspiracy theory that everyone involved was cheating and out to get him.

I would even go as far to say, there probably was no horse ownership of any kind involved. Blackhole is probably a degenerate horse player. Most of us figured he was a degenerate gambler of some kind. So this lifetime losing, degenerate horse player is spewing typical losing horse player nonsense about cheating and everyone out to get him.

That's my take. But I sure wouldn't put ANY stock in what this guy says. Mission, if you want to learn something, anything about horseracing or any other topic, go to a more relaible source than this nut.

KewlJ--the cheating is rampant in this sport. While you make a reasonable argument that if it were so widespread, that it would be made public and there would be investigations, indictments, etc. Unfortunately, while that would be reasonable it just isn't happening. Trainers get caught with innumerable positives for drug infractions. They get a slap on the wrist with a small fine. Repeat offenders that everyone knows are using drugs just get a slap. The tracks and management don't want to ban these trainers because those trainers have a lot of horses in their stables. Tracks want full fields for us to wager on. The more horses in a race, the bigger the handle and the greater the interest for the bettor. If you ban these trainers, they take their horses elsewhere and you get smaller fields and reduced handle.

Baffert has been caught numerous times. he was recently banned in new York and Kentucky. He already had the New York ban overturned because our judges are pretty much morons. He will probably also win in Kentucky but you would hope a Kentucky judge would have a better understanding of racing.

Keystone mentioned Servis and Navarro. The government spent a fortune on this case. Navarro plead guilty to one count and will get some jail time and fines. Servis is still fighting it. They had all kinds of evidence and wire taps and stoolies. But everyone has known for years what these guys were doing. A good trainer may win at a 15-25% clip. Navarro was winning at 35% or higher. He was previously banned from several tracks. He was previously caught on tape talking about his drugging of horses. But through all those years he still trained and won and laughed at us all.

So what I am saying is that you should not expect that anyone will actually do anything about the day to day cheating.

[kewlJ]

Come on...stop mission. I am not doubting either regnis or keystone. I have no issues with their credibility nor do I think they are part of a blackhole cult.

All I said was based on blackhole's credibility I would want to hear from others more credible. And now we have.

Blackhole alone has zero credibility in anything he says after all the lying. Much the same as Singer. They did that themselves by choosing to lie and troll. That is what credibility is.

Off to work now. Have a good day.

[monet]

Come on...stop mission. I am not doubting either regnis or keystone. I have no issues with their credibility nor do I think they are part of a blackhole cult.

All I said was based on blackhole's credibility I would want to hear from others more credible. And now we have.

Blackhole alone has zero credibility in anything he says after all the lying. Much the same as Singer. They did that themselves by choosing to lie and troll. That is what credibility is.

Off to work now. Have a good day.

You have constantly lied across all gambling forums for years and you keep bashing other people for lying... RIP.

[MisterV]

BH may have zero credibility viz. his flames, but the racing info is a horse of a different color.

Take it with the proverbial grain of salt, but at least it is coherent, gambling related and interesting.

Remember, just because someone has only screamed angrily in the past does not mean they cannot also sing sweetly if they want to.

[Mission146]

Okay, given that Blackhole has not made a single statement yet that has not been supported by people who are purported to know, I am going to decide, based on the limited conversation had so far, that I have no reason as yet to question Blackhole's credibility on the matter of horse racing. If the evidence points either way, then it would point to Blackhole's posts on horse racing being quite credible.

That out of the way, let's get some more stories!

[coach belly]

Any idea as to which fighters in particular were mob-controlled?

Sonny Liston

[kewlJ]

You have constantly lied across all gambling forums for years and you keep bashing other people for lying... RIP.

What have I lied about across many forums Monet? I accept blame that I lied 10 years ago with the fake death thing after being robbed. I thought that would offer me some protection against it occuring again. It was a bad decision. I have never run from it and accept blame. That people want to continue 10 years later to hold that against me, it more than likely means they don't like me for some other reason. I mean were you even on that blackjack forum at that time. I would doubt it, so your just looking for a reason to attack me.

So other than that what else have I lied about? Saying I am quitting a forum or not returning to a forum and changing my mind? That is silly, that is just a person changing their mind. Nothing wrong with that.

I mean seriously, tell me something I have said about blackjack, my experiences, or gambling that is a lie? Stop being such a hater, Porkchop.

[blackhole]

Just walked in the door from spending a whole day with my boys at the office. Same day planned for tomorrow.

It will take awhile to address all of Mission questions but I promise to answer all questions. (based on what I know for facts) Water already running for shower and I need to have dinner. Be back in little while with some answers.

I would like to take a second and address Kewlj's comments:

[MisterV]

It seems BH may have "turned over a new leaf" ...

[mickeycrimm]

Come on...stop mission. I am not doubting either regnis or keystone. I have no issues with their credibility nor do I think they are part of a blackhole cult.

All I said was based on blackhole's credibility I would want to hear from others more credible. And now we have.

Blackhole alone has zero credibility in anything he says after all the lying. Much the same as Singer. They did that themselves by choosing to lie and troll. That is what credibility is.

Off to work now. Have a good day.

You don't get to decide for us what is credible and what isn't.

[monet]

Keystone requested that I contribute to the forum and I think MaxPen approved this post.
After a 2 week hiatus and 1 week failed negotiation with a professional I decided to try again.
The plan is back to building a Mud Pan.
Since I never done it before I am going to try to build a pre-slope first to give myself a little practice with the dry pack.
So below are a couple of pictures of my total hack job that I completed in about 10 hours of work.
I turned my garage into a woodshop creating plenty of sawdust with my Piece of Shit, Chink Power Tools.
I bought a 10 inch rough in toilet, just incase, since it looks like my waste pipe will be 11 inches from the finished wall.

I was going to pay an experienced renovator $50 per hour to help me but he flaked out.
I didn't like the way he wanted to build the pan and use permanent Shark-Bite Fittings behind the wall.
From my research I'm told the O-Rings can fail causing leaks.
They used Steel Crimp Rings when the house was built and I haven't seen any problems with those yet.
I'm still a bit undecided on if I should use copper or steel rings or perhaps the steel clamps.
I can't justify the cost of the specific tool to use Uponor fittings although I believe those are the best choice for PEX.

I bought 8 boxes of 12x24 Polished Porcelain Tile.
I also bought two inch Hexagon Tile Sheets for the floor but after rethinking I'm going to return those and get squares as I think they are easier to cut for the layout.
I bought Mapei 27 Silver FlexColor CQ Grout since I'm told that white will get more dirty and black will fade color fast.
I almost bought the KeraPoxy since it claims to be more waterproof but I'm told its harder to work with and if you have to bust it out its much more difficult.
Still learning so probably have to take things back for exchange anyways.

The next step is to decide on the PEX A or B, Fittings (Plastic or Bronze).
Buy the Clamp Tool, cut the PEX, install the elbows and such and secure the valve to the studs.
It's hard enough to figure out what style screws and sizes to use for me lol.
Trying to figure out the exact measurements of roughing in the shower valve and pipes is a bit of a nightmare.
I'm way out of my depth.
Should be a real kick when I have to actually run thinset, cut and place tile on the floor let alone the walls.
However first I get to deal with walling in some 3x6's and trying to build a shower bed and waterproof things while I build a front wall shower bench.
Can't wait for it all to leak and mold up so I have to spend 20 grand tearing it out and rebuilding it.
Fuck Youtube and the information age where they make you believe you can actually do this sort of thing.

[The Boz]

Just my worthless opinion.

I have Blackhole blocked but the comments made me log out to see what he posted because it has created a lot of comments.

Reading what he posting, from personal experience he is 100% credible in what he posted as for being factual. The horse racing game has always been a shell game and goes even further than what he has touched on so far. RED and I both lived the world he is talking about in the 80’s at Penn National race track. The same Penn Nation Gaming that parlayed their small horse racing operation in Granville PA into one of the largest gaming operations in the country. They are still based in Wyomissing PA where Peter Carlino started his empire.

As for what BH has said, it’s correct. I had a personal mentor who was a successful restaurant owner who lost everything buying claimers for $2500 and $3500 thinking he could make money as an owner. He loved seeing his name in the program as the trainers and boarding fees ate him alive. Luckily for me he needed money and sold me a pizza shop for 3 times it’s worth in 1983. 3 times it was worth you ask? But in 1983 for a 19 year old kid he financed it with next to nothing down, it was an opportunity few get and I appreciated it. And turned it into a (very) small empire.

So many stories and rumblings about how the owners made more throwing and betting on the races than they ever made from winning races. There was a famous race fixing scandal at PN which only touched on the corruption there. I’m sure PN was small potatoes compared to the bigger tracks.

Another scam was brining horses in from the Florida tracks knowing they would be bet heavily by suckers and then paying them to throw the races for a local horse who hadn’t won in a while. You could throw the racing form out at Penn National because the races were anything but fair. I do remember John Henry coming in late in his career at PN.

Anyways RED could add so much more.

But to the starting question, absolutely what Blackhole is posting is legitimate in how the business worked years ago, and probably still does to some degree. I always saw him as a semi rich guy who has a story to tell but also has a ton of bitterness toward gambling in general and successful gamblers in particular. Hopefully he finds peace with his anger because he definitely has a lot to contribute with his experiences.

Who knows how he will react but I do hope he continues to add to this thread with his stories.

[The Boz]

Had to look this up as I went down memory lane.

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/07/12/s...ce-fixing.html

“ Five jockeys and two trainers have been charged with fixing races in connection with an undercover sting operation at the suburban Penn National track, Attorney General LeRoy Zimmerman said today.

Possible fixes at Keystone Race Track in suburban Philadelphia are being investigated as a result of the Penn National inquiry, Mr. Zimmerman said. He declined to provide details.

The number of races fixed before the sting operation is unknown, he said, and no rigged races were run as part of the investigation….”

[blackhole]

I will never name a trainer, jockey, horse, or partner. Regnis seems to be well educated about horses. If he was involved for 50 years I would hope so. Any person like Regnis could look up everything they wanted with any of the above-mentioned names. What I’m sure will eventually come up are derogatory comments and I need to protect everyone that was involved with me alleged or not. No Names.

First of all, I owned 3 horses alone and was partners with 2 other guys on one really good one. I had two different trainers in my short career.

My horses were always stabled in Belmont New York (one of the larger tracks) even in the winter. I was involved from mid-80’s to early-90’s. Each horse cost around $2,000.00 dollars per month. When I left it was up to at least $3,000.00 dollars each per month. Don’t know todays cost but I’m sure it’s much more. That fee was just for the staple and trainer’s fees. Like Regnis said everything, and I mean everything or anything the horse needs, or eats, vets, silks, etc. etc. etc. is added on. When you shipped them to race at Aqueduct N.Y. in the winter you paid for that also. You would always expect another $500.00 to $1,000.00 dollars extra on your monthly bill for all of them combined for add-ons. I never paid entry fees. Not that type quality horses.

I always had 3 horses. By the time I got out they were not the same 3 I started with. If one got claimed, my trainer and I would eventually claim another one or buy one privately. So, when I did get out at that time one of the horses cost $15K sold privately for $11K, another cost $18K sold privately $16K, another cost $20K sold privately for $11K. The allowance horse I partner with when we finally did sell, we sold privately for $50K.

Other than the allowance horse the other three were considered in the basement claiming type horses for Belmont. The quality of horse can get much worse at many other tracks like Rockingham. In the winter most of the real good horses will ship to other tracks like Florida. That’s when my horses were in many races at Aqueduct. The cards in the winter are usually loaded with shit quality horses. We could usually meet entry requirements for each of them like once every two weeks. Some times every week. When the good ones came back, we had to wait to find a spot for them where they would be eligible and competitive.

Purses were all over the place. I’d say could be from $25K to $45K (basement bracket) depending on the race being offered. First got 60% second got 20% forgot the rest but I think they paid up to 5th. If you came in the money you had to pay 10% to your trainer and 10% to the jockey on any winnings. You also had to pay the jockey $100.00 dollars just to ride your horse win or lose. Some were even more. Remember this was mid 1980’s. Also, if you won you always took care of the barn workers with tips. It’s pretty much a lose, lose situation unless of course you won big purses or often.

Without cashing out on the occasional big pay offs which I’ll get into later I don’t think I would have lasted a year.

Claiming horses don’t go to auction. They either get claimed, sold privately, or die.

I’m reading Missions post trying to answers some questions. Feel like I’m all over the place. The claiming horse game needs more explaining. I had enough for tonight. Really tired. Get to more tomorrow night and over the weekend.

The clocker in the morning records the name of the horse identified by lip tattoos if needed, what type of training is being done, and the time the horse did whatever in. This information gets posted in Racing Forums to help handicappers figure how a horse is doing. Certain trainers are close with the timer and he’ll print a fake time to throw handicappers off. Of course, he’s in on it. It gets much worse than that. They will even post the name of one of the trainers better horses to hide how well a cheaper horse is doing getting tuned up for a pay day.

[kewlJ]

So it seems Blackhole is credible on this topiv, for me based on other members colaboration. Blackhole is a horseracing guy. Who knew???

By rights, I could troll, and argue every point he makes, even when I am wrong and have no idea what I am talking about, but I am not going to do that as some are enjoying the discussion. I too am enjoying the horse racing discussion. And I welcome blackhole participation on anything that isn't just trolling and making an ass of himself.

[kewlJ]

Another scam was brining horses in from the Florida tracks knowing they would be bet heavily by suckers and then paying them to throw the races for a local horse who hadn’t won in a while. You could throw the racing form out at Penn National because the races were anything but fair. I do remember John Henry coming in late in his career at PN.

As a kid I went to racetracks maybe 6 times with my grandfather who was a horse racing guy. Twice to Phila Park and 4 times to Penn National. He lived in between the two, Penn National a little further away, but they had nighttime racing, so he could go after work, so that was more his go to track.

My first time at Penn National, I saw several horses that were coming from Phila Park and were running in $2500 claimers, which was a drop from Phila Park. I was sure that meant they were better horses and would win and Pop always gave me a couple bucks to bet and would bet them for me. They didn't come close to winning. If I remember, they looked like the horses that didn't belong. Also saw a horse coming from New York, who had run in even higher claiming races. I used the same strategy and he finished last...not even sure he finished the race.

I thought it odd that horses coming from bigger tracks and running against better company couldn't win there. Pop told me Penn National was a pit stop before the glue factory. On subsequent visits, first thing I would do was cross out the horses from Phila Park and New York, regardless of the better company they had been running against.

[MisterV]

By report (I was too young to notice) my grandfather loved to bet the horses: he worked in NYC as a pressman at the N Y Daily News (went deaf).

He quit school in eighth grade to go to work to support his family, but was sharp and had a calculating mind.

I'm told he spent a lot of time handicapping and looking for "the right horse.:" he didn't find it all the time, but when he did he went to the track and waited til that one horse ran, which was when he made his only bet of the day.

By report he came out ahead: I wonder how / why / what his "secret" might have been?