Contributing to Forum ??

[tableplay]

Greetz old friend.
I don't know if it qualifies as Anime, but I enjoy the old Star Blazers cartoon series.
Same with Cowboy Bebop.
Does Speed Racer count ? Fuck all that was a good series.

Honestly, I have never watched Anime nor had any interest.
I grew up on cartoons and Speed Racer, Chim Chim and Racer X was Very Good Fun.
They had a knack for leaving you on a cliff hanger in most episodes.
I enjoyed the corny movie they made as well.
I thought it was very creative and different.
You like John Goodman so that was a plus.

I only watched this new movie to take a break and read up on it afterwards that it was based off of anime.
Not bad as I have watched just about everything so it was nice to have something new.
I like subtitles.
I like Japanese Movies.
The "Final" Movie was way more cartoonish or videogameish compared to the Beginning Movie.
The Beginning Movie had more of a story and dealt with internal conflicts of love/hate or good/evil.
Very Obvious and Simple movie to figure out so that could be a negative.
Sort of reminded me of the first John Wick Movie but with Swords and in Japan and they threw in a love story with a woman instead of a dog.
Since you like John Wick, I would imagine you would like this Roni Movie.

Thanks for the recos Monet, much appreciated. I agree, the live action Speed Racer was quite enjoyable. I just watched the Long Halloween Part I and II Batman cartoon movies, however I didn't mention them until now because I just thought there were mediocre, at best, so I can't really recommend them.

[kewlJ]

LOL...what you don`t seem to understand is that there are people that made/make their fortunes elsewhere and don`t depend on gambling to feed themselves

I do understand that. And I have no problem with recreational gamblers. I couldn't do what I do without them.

But most horse players I wouldn't catagorize as recreational anything and that includes my own grandfather. The guys that used to spend every afternoon (or evening) at the track and now-a-days it is not AT the track but at the sports books betting horses, are NOT recreational gamblers. Just spend some time in any sports book in the afternoon when the races are going off and listen to these guys. South Point is a good chocie because they have a seperate horse race section. Same guys every day and these are not recreational gamblers. They are degen horse players.

[Keystone]

LOL...what you don`t seem to understand is that there are people that made/make their fortunes elsewhere and don`t depend on gambling to feed themselves

I do understand that. And I have no problem with recreational gamblers. I couldn't do what I do without them.

But most horse players I wouldn't catagorize as recreational anything and that includes my own grandfather. The guys that used to spend every afternoon (or evening) at the track and now-a-days it is not AT the track but at the sports books betting horses, are NOT recreational gamblers. Just spend some time in any sports book in the afternoon when the races are going off and listen to these guys. South Point is a good chocie because they have a seperate horse race section. Same guys every day and these are not recreational gamblers. They are degen horse players.

Yeah Ive spent many afternoons in race books in Vegas when I visit. And yeah I`ve seen some real idiots yelling and acting the fool. Also seen quite a few idiots playing blackjack berating dealers and other players, cussing, and acting like their whole net worth is at stake on the current shoe

[kewlJ]

Yeah Ive spent many afternoons in race books in Vegas when I visit. And yeah I`ve seen some real idiots yelling and acting the fool. Also seen quite a few idiots playing blackjack berating dealers and other players, cussing, and acting like their whole net worth is at stake on the current shoe

Well yes. And I need those idiots at the blackjack table also to do what I do.

But here is the difference. There is a bonafide, legitimate mathematical way to play blackjack at an advantage, several actually, but lets just talk card counting. But with horse racing, similar to sports betting, I was under the impression that maybe there were a very slim number of players that were good enough handipapers to make money and 99+ percent were losers. But thanks to this thread, I have learned there really can't be any successful horse handipappers, because you all are telling us, the numbers in the racing form are all fake and inaccurate, the workout times fake and inaccurate, the race times fake and inaccurate, because so many races were fixed. So what is the basis for handicapping.

From the sounds of this thread, you can win, IF you have been cut into the loop as to what race is fixed and what horse is predetermined to win. A good handicapper is going to come up with the best horse based on the data avaialble, but you guys are claiming that data is falsified and inaccurate. And even if the "good" handicapper comes up with the best horse, doesn't mean much if the fix is in for some other horse to win that day.

[MaxPen]

If I had known blackhole was involved in horse racing I would have known why he has problems with advantage players. The only thing that would wreck you more is using a progressive VP strategy.

I also really understand the broken down shoe projections now. The South Point has a lot of them.....RIP

[kewlJ]

If I had known blackhole was involved in horse racing I would have known why he has problems with advantage players. The only thing that would wreck you more is using a progressive VP strategy.

Where is that like button Mission was advocating for? LIKE!

And I am not saying this to be mean. My problems with blackhole are well documented. But most of have have known that he has a problem with players that win, but weren't sure of the details or reasons. This sheds light on that.

[Keystone]

Yeah Ive spent many afternoons in race books in Vegas when I visit. And yeah I`ve seen some real idiots yelling and acting the fool. Also seen quite a few idiots playing blackjack berating dealers and other players, cussing, and acting like their whole net worth is at stake on the current shoe

Well yes. And I need those idiots at the blackjack table also to do what I do.

But here is the difference. There is a bonafide, legitimate mathematical way to play blackjack at an advantage, several actually, but lets just talk card counting. But with horse racing, similar to sports betting, I was under the impression that maybe there were a very slim number of players that were good enough handipapers to make money and 99+ percent were losers. But thanks to this thread, I have learned there really can't be any successful horse handipappers, because you all are telling us, the numbers in the racing form are all fake and inaccurate, the workout times fake and inaccurate, the race times fake and inaccurate, because so many races were fixed. So what is the basis for handicapping.

From the sounds of this thread, you can win, IF you have been cut into the loop as to what race is fixed and what horse is predetermined to win. A good handicapper is going to come up with the best horse based on the data avaialble, but you guys are claiming that data is falsified and inaccurate. And even if the "good" handicapper comes up with the best horse, doesn't mean much if the fix is in for some other horse to win that day.

You`re guesstimate probably isn`t far off. I would say the number of losing horse players is well into the 90+ percentage rate. It`s a very tough game to beat on a consistent basis, especially if you`re an undisciplined moron. I really couldn`t tell you if I am up or down lifetime. Like I said, I don`t depend on it for anything other than I enjoy it so I`ve never really kept any records. I will tell you that I have had numerous wins that are pretty well up there and I know Regnis has too. That can make up for alot of days when your hunches are wrong or whatever "fix" is in

[MaxPen]

Yeah Ive spent many afternoons in race books in Vegas when I visit. And yeah I`ve seen some real idiots yelling and acting the fool. Also seen quite a few idiots playing blackjack berating dealers and other players, cussing, and acting like their whole net worth is at stake on the current shoe

Well yes. And I need those idiots at the blackjack table also to do what I do.

But here is the difference. There is a bonafide, legitimate mathematical way to play blackjack at an advantage, several actually, but lets just talk card counting. But with horse racing, similar to sports betting, I was under the impression that maybe there were a very slim number of players that were good enough handipapers to make money and 99+ percent were losers. But thanks to this thread, I have learned there really can't be any successful horse handipappers, because you all are telling us, the numbers in the racing form are all fake and inaccurate, the workout times fake and inaccurate, the race times fake and inaccurate, because so many races were fixed. So what is the basis for handicapping.

From the sounds of this thread, you can win, IF you have been cut into the loop as to what race is fixed and what horse is predetermined to win. A good handicapper is going to come up with the best horse based on the data avaialble, but you guys are claiming that data is falsified and inaccurate. And even if the "good" handicapper comes up with the best horse, doesn't mean much if the fix is in for some other horse to win that day.

You`re guesstimate probably isn`t far off. I would say the number of losing horse players is well into the 90+ percentage rate. It`s a very tough game to beat on a consistent basis, especially if you`re an undisciplined moron. I really couldn`t tell you if I am up or down lifetime. Like I said, I don`t depend on it for anything other than I enjoy it so I`ve never really kept any records. I will tell you that I have had numerous wins that are pretty well up there and I know Regnis has too. That can make up for alot of days when your hunches are wrong or whatever "fix" is in

Everyone that claims they don't know if they are up or down are in the same boat as the I am about even crowd. They are down and a lot of them are completely wrecked.

[blackhole]

Mission, I just read your second batch of questions. I didn’t even get through the first.

Just a couple things since I really need some rest after another full day in the office with my boys.

Claimers in New York usually bottom out at around 10K. Off tracks like Jersey, Philly, New Hampshire, etc. they get as cheap as a couple thousand. Now, claimers could go as high as 100K. Another words if you wanted to claim any claiming horse at any level and already are a registered owner at that track you would need to provide proof of funds before the race goes off. If not, you would need a certified check along with a bunch of documents.

It’s very risky to claim horses out of a race. If you’re the only person with a claim on any one horse and approved the horse is yours after the race. There’s a whole other process if there were more than one person trying to claim the same horse. It’s always better to buy private where your trainer and vet could review the horse first. There is much more to it but that is the primary beginning.

Almost every owner is not doing well and you usually could find some good deals privately as a result of desperation. Obviously, owners capable of winning million dollar plus purses speaks for itself.

Most horse owning is a money pit, but without it you could never get close enough to the inside for those almost guaranteed huge winning / exacta tickets. Did I say huge? These bets don’t take place every day, but usually often enough to take a big piece of the burden off your back. Our stable was very close with 2 other stables. No doubt the three trainers were colluding. That’s a lot of different horses. For the record the jockeys do whatever their told or they’ll have no career.

More another day.

[Keystone]

Well yes. And I need those idiots at the blackjack table also to do what I do.

But here is the difference. There is a bonafide, legitimate mathematical way to play blackjack at an advantage, several actually, but lets just talk card counting. But with horse racing, similar to sports betting, I was under the impression that maybe there were a very slim number of players that were good enough handipapers to make money and 99+ percent were losers. But thanks to this thread, I have learned there really can't be any successful horse handipappers, because you all are telling us, the numbers in the racing form are all fake and inaccurate, the workout times fake and inaccurate, the race times fake and inaccurate, because so many races were fixed. So what is the basis for handicapping.

From the sounds of this thread, you can win, IF you have been cut into the loop as to what race is fixed and what horse is predetermined to win. A good handicapper is going to come up with the best horse based on the data avaialble, but you guys are claiming that data is falsified and inaccurate. And even if the "good" handicapper comes up with the best horse, doesn't mean much if the fix is in for some other horse to win that day.

You`re guesstimate probably isn`t far off. I would say the number of losing horse players is well into the 90+ percentage rate. It`s a very tough game to beat on a consistent basis, especially if you`re an undisciplined moron. I really couldn`t tell you if I am up or down lifetime. Like I said, I don`t depend on it for anything other than I enjoy it so I`ve never really kept any records. I will tell you that I have had numerous wins that are pretty well up there and I know Regnis has too. That can make up for alot of days when your hunches are wrong or whatever "fix" is in

Everyone that claims they don't know if they are up or down are in the same boat as the I am about even crowd. They are down and a lot of them are completely wrecked.

Haha, I could have sworn I just said I`ve never kept any sort of records and I`m about as far away from a "professional" gambler that there is. If it makes you feel better and more secure about yourself I`ll agree with you. You and Kewl J, Axel, et al are the only winners, and myself, Blackhole et al are degenerate loser gamblers that are broke on the street. There, that was easy. Hopefully you feel better. I don`t really know you other than you being obsessed with Rob`s Newell business and Mickey squirting on your head for the last year

[blackhole]

Wanted to add one more thing tonight. Every owner wants to win every race any of their horses are in. There are certain cases when you know your horse is out of its league, but needed to burn out a early front runner to help the horse you bet on cross the wire first. You treat that race as just another training day for your horse, yet you get to go to the window and pick up some cash for your willing participation.

[regnis]

Blackhole and I talking about cheating and race fixing may have given some the wrong impression. First of all, race fixing usually involves multiple trainers and owners "stiffing" their horses to wind up with set result so that the trifectas and other gimmick bets pay huge. This takes a lot of collusion--think the Black Sox Scandal. While this does happen it is not that prevalent. On the other hand, there is probably only a small number of races in which illegal drugs or other supplements are not being used. I don't consider that race fixing--the trainer is trying to win at any cost. While the use of drugs may effect the outcome, it is different than trying to lose.

I agree with Key that the percentage of losing horse players is extremely high. I do not agree with Kewl's assessment that they are all losers and non-professionals based upon what he sees at the race book. There are a lot of pros, many way better than I will ever be, and they for the most part are quiet and keep to themselves. They also keep their opinions to themselves or their group. The loudmouths that you see at the race book are exactly what you think all horseplayers are. However, you are not seeing the pros. I socialize at the track but I don't discuss my picks other than with one or two friends who rely on me. I also try to avoid hearing the loudmouth's picks because I then find myself doing the Richard Dreyfuss and taking myself off of horses that I like just because I know the idiot touting that horse is a loser. So yes--the losers you see in the race book are just that.

Kewl--the inaccuracies in the workouts etc. is probably overstated. Yes they exist. But any pro does not rely on those numbers. They either keep their own charts and/or watch every race. I know what I see--I don't need the racing form to tell me. I no longer keep my own charts because I am getting too old for the time that it takes. But I have decades of charts in organized boxes in my basement. I do try to watch every race but that also takes a ton of time. That is a reason to limit the number of tracks or races that one plays. But please don't have the misconception that we are all losers and that you can't beat the game. There are many doing just that.

[monet]

Monet is such a passive-aggressive tool, and MP is along for the ride.

Monet feels that yakking about home improvement constitutes viable contribution to this board, as keystone requested he contribute something of value.

That's like saying it's OK to rape a nymphomaniac.

I'm not like you.
You are the Asshole who thinks you deserve to wear 6,000 dollar sweaters as you walk around killing homeless people with a baseball bat to the head.
If that isn't bad enough, you made a career out of destroying peoples lives by playing both sides of the field, destroying the covenant and sanctity of marriage.
See You In HELL!

[MisterV]

Yesterday you said you were blocking me.

[blackhole]

Just want to set the records straight for the assholes that are taking a little inside information about horse racing and coming to the conclusion that the entire racing program is rigged.

Yes, there is a limited amount of cheating and collusion just like any other sport when possible. There are about 100 different horses running every day at each track that offer it all over the world.

To come to the conclusion that everything is fixed just exposes the stupidity of some of the confirmed assholes that post here.

I would also suspect that they are envious not ever being part of such a select few capable of such +EV information. The math for this type of information is about 98% +EV guaranteed instantly. Compare it to 0.5% or 1.5% over a very long time. It’s all about the math, right? It becomes obvious why they are envious.

This stuff is out of assholes like Kewlj’s and MaxPads paygrade. Of course, they will take every opportunity to attack me. You can’t blame them. But this is a subject where with every post they make about it, they’ll expose just how fucking stupid they really are. Something I’ve been trying to tell everyone in the past.

I suspect a great deal more of stupidity is on the horizon. Wait for it....

[blackhole]

In an effort to answer all of Mission’s questions, I think Regnis should step in if he’s reading and help out with the breeding and auctions of yearling’s kind of stuff. I certainly remember all the cheating stuff (or most of it) but it was 35 years ago and many details have faded.

Here is a good story. Not about cheating but having inside information.

A very classy expensive horse who won many small stake races suddenly began to tail off. It happens with horses that start putting on years. The horse always still trained like the champ he always was, but when put into a race he would start off like expected but always quit at the top of the stretch almost back to last.

They never were able to find any problem with him and took the approach of just tailing off. So, they dropped him down in company to 100K allowance. Once again same outcome. They dropped him down to 70K allowance. Once again same outcome. By now the public lost interest in him and he would go off at crazy odds. They dropped him down into 50K allowance. Same result but in the stable they noticed a drop of blood. They immediately did an endoscopic exam and realized he was a bleeder. A horse that bleeds grow some kind of shit around its lungs that pop and start bleeding blocking how they could breathe under stress. They did this exam in the past but everything showed negative. Plus, he never bled enough to notice.

So, now they treated him for the bleeding problem. They use drugs like Lasix and Bute to stop it. I don’t think they are allowed to run on those drugs anymore or they have to be out of the blood stream before a race.

Once all fixed the trainer was keeping the horse in 50K company. He said “they know when they win and are in front and wanted to get him familiar with that feeling again.” I’m like “sure, whatever you say” Me and a friend went to the track for that race. Sure enough he goes off at over 20 to 1 which sadly was a big drop from the last few races. He lost his last 4 races over 50 lengths combined. I put everything on him only to win. Felt there was no need to waste money on place or show money. Was instead heavy on straight cold exacters.

The race was 7 Panels long and at Belmont they were coming out of the Shute. From far outside he runs to the lead by 4 lengths the whole back-stretch. Turning for home about 3 horses catch up to him about even with the jockey. I’m panicking thinking he’s quitting again. The jockey lets him loose and he won by 18 lengths never getting hit with the whip even once. The horses that came in second and third were the two horses I had cold exactas with. Between the track and bookie that was one of my biggest paydays in that game.

The following week he came in second in a stake race at Saratoga paying $26.00 dollars for place. Another big payday, this time backing my win bet.

That’s real inside information and not cheating.

[regnis]

Are Entry Fees something that are paid by higher or lower quality horses? A quick search tells me that Entry Fees have something to do with trials? Is that like a time trial run for the horses to know what horses to put that one up against? On that note, what are the other criteria for deciding what horses are going to race what other horses? Does the owner or trainer have any say in what specific race a horse runs?



It makes sense that, the older a horse gets, the less it sells for. What does it mean for an animal to be an allowance horse? I assume if a horse is performing extremely well it might sell for more money as it approaches the peak of its career; is that what happened with the allowance horse you sold for 50k? How much did that one cost when you went in on it...or how much did it cost before you went in on it if it had already been purchased by then?

Other than the allowance horse the other three were considered in the basement claiming type horses for Belmont. The quality of horse can get much worse at many other tracks like Rockingham. In the winter most of the real good horses will ship to other tracks like Florida. That’s when my horses were in many races at Aqueduct. The cards in the winter are usually loaded with shit quality horses. We could usually meet entry requirements for each of them like once every two weeks. Some times every week. When the good ones came back, we had to wait to find a spot for them where they would be eligible and competitive.

What are the Entry Requirements? Does it just have to do with trial times or do previous racing results come into play at all? It sounds like you decided to keep your horses up north deliberately to race against weaker horses rather than sending them down to Florida to race against the good ones---that's a sweet AP move it sounds like to me!

Purses were all over the place. I’d say could be from $25K to $45K (basement bracket) depending on the race being offered. First got 60% second got 20% forgot the rest but I think they paid up to 5th. If you came in the money you had to pay 10% to your trainer and 10% to the jockey on any winnings. You also had to pay the jockey $100.00 dollars just to ride your horse win or lose. Some were even more. Remember this was mid 1980’s. Also, if you won you always took care of the barn workers with tips. It’s pretty much a lose, lose situation unless of course you won big purses or often.

You mentioned that you lost money on the horses overall and owned three horses at any one time. I'm sure you kept detailed financial records for all of these horses. How many total individual horses did you end up owning solo and how many would you say, of those, were net profitable?

Without cashing out on the occasional big pay offs which I’ll get into later I don’t think I would have lasted a year.

Claiming horses don’t go to auction. They either get claimed, sold privately, or die.

I’m reading Missions post trying to answers some questions. Feel like I’m all over the place. The claiming horse game needs more explaining. I had enough for tonight. Really tired. Get to more tomorrow night and over the weekend.

Why would they die? Thanks for answering all my questions! Can these horses not be sold to someone who just likes horses, in general, not for the purpose of racing? Can they not be kept with non-racing horses?

The clocker in the morning records the name of the horse identified by lip tattoos if needed, what type of training is being done, and the time the horse did whatever in. This information gets posted in Racing Forums to help handicappers figure how a horse is doing. Certain trainers are close with the timer and he’ll print a fake time to throw handicappers off. Of course, he’s in on it. It gets much worse than that. They will even post the name of one of the trainers better horses to hide how well a cheaper horse is doing getting tuned up for a pay day.

How does this usually work? I assume he gimmicks the time to make the horse appear to be slower than it actually is, then it ends up having longer odds against it, at which point people can pile on Win, Place or Show bets if they know the horse is better than represented? Do they wait until it's almost race time to get those bets down to prevent it from looking like a bunch of money is coming in on it?

Mission-I will try to give you a little more info on some of these questions.

1. Entry fees are primarily for stakes races--the higher level horses and purses. In thoroughbred racing, we don't really have time trials. That is more for quarter-horses and i think some standardbreds. Otherwise, an owner/trainer needs to know where his horse will fit talent wise and run his horse at the appropriate level. You can't have big eyes. Run them where they will be competitive.
2. Most races, particularly at the small lower-level tracks, are claiming races. That means that other qualified owners can claim a horse from that race. At the major tracks like Saratoga, Del Mar, etc., there are only a few claiming races. At the shit tracks like Thistle Downs, Fan Duels, or any of the little slot funded tracks, they are mostly claiming races with a few allowance races and an isolated stake race here and there. As Black stated, at the good tracks, the claiming price can be as much as $100,000. At the small slot tracks, they can be as low as $2,500 or even less. Anything under $10,000 they are pretty much broken down. From 10,000 to $25,000 there is some talent but a lot of minor injuries or problems and usually a lot of drugs. Anything higher, you have some talent and usually minor issues, or the formerly good horse who has lost a step or two but still has heart.
3. Allowance races usually are better than the cheaper claimers, but, depending on the allowance level, may not be as good as the higher claimers. In an allowance race, there are conditions set by the racing secretary for qualification to run in the race. There are endless conditions that can be written, and a good racing secretary will write a condition specifically to get a horse a race often times. But the standard progression is a Maiden race, which is for horses that have never won a race. Then the next allowance race would be for horses that have not won 1 race other than a maiden race or claimer. next would be for non-winners of 2, etc. etc. In an allowance race, your horse cannot be claimed. Allowance races may also have a condition that gives a weight break to a horse that hasn't won in 180 days or some other condition.
4. You asked why horses die. It is sad but historically there was no retirement program for race horses. Some can be used as outriders at the track; some can be pets. But the thoroughbred in general is a high strung mean SOB and does not play well with others. Too many wind up in the glue factory or as horse meat in countries where that is legal. It costs money to care for and feed an old broken down thoroughbred. It seems sad when you see an old broken down formerly talented horse still running at 12 years old for $2,500 at some bush track, but it is better than most of the alternatives. There are now some organizations that try to give these horses a home, but not enough. So essentially they die from neglect when they are done racing. If you are ever in Lexington, KY go to Old Friends Farm which is a charitable organization that takes old horses and cares for them. They even have a few Derby horses there. Take the tour. You will see my wife's name on many paddocks and fences as I am a long time contributor. Of course, nothing is ever in my name including my home, investments, etc.

[Mission146]

One week ago they were all crying and calling blackhole every name in the book.
This week they praise him and rejoice in his horse racing information.
Just a bunch of Flip Flop MotherFuckers who never stick to their ideals and guns.
Pretty Sick Chubbs.
Personally, I have never had one problem with blackhole.
He sticks it to me pretty hard and tears me down but I have always said nice things about blackhole.
I have no issue with him.
He stays true to form from what I can tell.
But its a Fucking Message Board that nobody really cares about.
Fuck Everyone!

Well, it is a message board. I don't pick sides when it comes to people. In my view, everyone is as good or as bad as whatever post I happen to be reading at that time. An interesting discussion with someone knowledgeable on a topic is just that---doesn't matter who the someone is or what they have to say on other topics.

[Mission146]

Mission, I just read your second batch of questions. I didn’t even get through the first.

Just a couple things since I really need some rest after another full day in the office with my boys.

Claimers in New York usually bottom out at around 10K. Off tracks like Jersey, Philly, New Hampshire, etc. they get as cheap as a couple thousand. Now, claimers could go as high as 100K. Another words if you wanted to claim any claiming horse at any level and already are a registered owner at that track you would need to provide proof of funds before the race goes off. If not, you would need a certified check along with a bunch of documents.

It’s very risky to claim horses out of a race. If you’re the only person with a claim on any one horse and approved the horse is yours after the race. There’s a whole other process if there were more than one person trying to claim the same horse. It’s always better to buy private where your trainer and vet could review the horse first. There is much more to it but that is the primary beginning.

Almost every owner is not doing well and you usually could find some good deals privately as a result of desperation. Obviously, owners capable of winning million dollar plus purses speaks for itself.

Most horse owning is a money pit, but without it you could never get close enough to the inside for those almost guaranteed huge winning / exacta tickets. Did I say huge? These bets don’t take place every day, but usually often enough to take a big piece of the burden off your back. Our stable was very close with 2 other stables. No doubt the three trainers were colluding. That’s a lot of different horses. For the record the jockeys do whatever their told or they’ll have no career.

More another day.

Thanks, get some rest and I'll look forward to more answers when you get back! I guess one follow-up question to this part would be---on these infrequent exacta plays---how high can they get the rough probability of success? Would it be by way of stacking a race such that it consists entirely or horses trained by those three guys. Would the owners of the horses who are NOT going to win ever be told so they could get sizable bets on the horses who are going to win?

[Mission146]

Wanted to add one more thing tonight. Every owner wants to win every race any of their horses are in. There are certain cases when you know your horse is out of its league, but needed to burn out a early front runner to help the horse you bet on cross the wire first. You treat that race as just another training day for your horse, yet you get to go to the window and pick up some cash for your willing participation.

They do the same thing in college football! Except, the lesser team gets paid on direct (percentage of gate) to come in and take their ass beating.