THE 10K WARS

[mickeycrimm]

Vegas Matt is a millionaire that plays high limit slots which he films and puts on his Youtube channel. He has close to half a million subscribers and the views of his slot exploits number in the hundreds of thousands.

Matt recently posted a video of a what slot pros call a "10K." It's a progressive slot game where the Major meter starts at $9000 and must hit by $10,000. A secondary meter starts at $500 and must hit by $1000.

This game can be found in most every casino in the United States. In years gone by there was a lot of competition among slot pros for plays on this game. Not only could a profit be made but the game could also be used to generate huge amounts of freeplay in some spots. Hence, it was a game that some multi-carders used.

In this video Matt jumps on the 10K at 9703. He bets $100 per spins. It runs him up to 9912 before it hits. And he loses $12,300 on the play.

How well you run in the short term in dependent on how well you do in catching the free spins:

[mickeycrimm]

In analyzing the 10K game one of the first things one wants to do is clock the meter speed. In this case Vegas Matt is betting $100 per spin. The major meter is flipping 15 cents per spin, the minor meter is flipping 45 cents per spins.

15 cents per spins equates to a .15% meter. Another way slot pros talk about meter speed is how much money to flip the meter 1 cent. In this case it's $6.67 to flip it 1 cent. So it's "a 6.67 meter."

The 1K meters runs at .45%. In this case it takes $2.22 cents to flip it 1 penny. So it's "a 2.22 meter."

A 1 percent meter is a 1 dollar meter.
A half percent meter is a 2 dollar meter.
A .4% meter is a 2.50 meter.

etc.,

[mickeycrimm]

Another thing the 10K pro wants to know is what is the overall payback of the machine. It can varies from machine to machine and casino to casino. There's no room to play guessing games with the payback unless you get an extremely high number. There's to much money to be lost by not knowing the payback is there. You don't want to be playing an 87% game at 9700.

So one trick of possibly getting the payback is to request they activate the speed stop. If they allow it they will have to get a slot tech to go into the software and activate it. You may get a look at the payback screen that way.

Another way is to stick 4 one hundred dollar bills in the machine then tell the floor you think you put 5 bills in but one didn't register. They'll have to get a tech to go in the machine, in which case you get a look at the payback screen.

The machines I'm familiar with are 93% and 95%. But I've heard of both higher and lower chips.

[mickeycrimm]

Okay, so we've done our subterfuge and know the game has a 95% overall payback. Now what?

We're going to determine what the 10K progressive is worth in the game. It's based on a random number being chosen for the progressive to hit.

The meter starts at $9000 and must hit by $10000. Adding the numbers together then dividing by two means an average hit of $9500. So we ask our self, how much action does it take to move the meter from $9000 to $9500.

Remember it's a 6.67 meter. If a $6.67 wager moves the meter 1 penny then a $667 wager will move the meter $1.

So 667 times the $500 meter movement equals a $333,500.

Then we divide the $9500 payoff by 333,500 to get 2.85%.

The 10K meter is worth 2.85% of the payback of the game.

[mickeycrimm]

So let's find the breakeven payback number for a 95% 10K. The meter is worth 2.85% so subtract that from 95 to get 92.15%. Then subtract 92.15 from 100 to get the amount of drain until the progressive is hit. Which is 7.85%.

Say we have found a 9600 meter. Since it's random the average hit would be 9800.

So 667 times 200 means an average wager of 133,400.
The payoff, 9800 divided by the wager, 133,400 equals 7.85%.
Adding 7.5% to 92.15% equals 99.5%. The breakeven number is a little higher than 9600.

Another way to look at it is 7.35% times 133,400 equals an average cost of $10,472 to spin it off. Thats about $700 higher than the payoff.

Like I said earlier, there was competition for these plays. Most would pass on this number. But there were guys around who would take this low a number if they figured to get huge freeplay.

A lot of the play is knowing how much wager triggers how much freeplay. On this play here it's a 133K wager. If an MC'er knows that a 40K wager triggers a certain amount of freeplay then she will switch cards if the play goes past a 40K wager. If it runs another 40K wager they will do the same. The big payoff on the end is recorded on only 1 card. Running a 40K wager is just a few hours creates the profile of a high roller.

more later....

[Don Perignom]

If an MC'er knows that a 40K wager triggers a certain amount of freeplay then she will switch cards if the play goes past a 40K wager. If it runs another 40K wager they will do the same.

How does she handle the problem of incidental taxables during play? For the first taxable, she probably has a cover story to explain why the inserted card doesn't match her identity. But then what happens an hour later when she hits a taxable on a different card that also isn't hers?

[mickeycrimm]

If an MC'er knows that a 40K wager triggers a certain amount of freeplay then she will switch cards if the play goes past a 40K wager. If it runs another 40K wager they will do the same.

How does she handle the problem of incidental taxables during play? For the first taxable, she probably has a cover story to explain why the inserted card doesn't match her identity. But then what happens an hour later when she hits a taxable on a different card that also isn't hers?

The multi-carding is done by crews.

[coach belly]

For the first taxable, she probably has a cover story to explain why the inserted card doesn't match her identity. But then what happens an hour later when she hits a taxable on a different card that also isn't hers?

Who would require an explanation?

The player is required to provide ID, but in my experience the slot attendant doesn't check the player's card.

They immediately remove it and insert their own card to begin the payment process.

[Don Perignom]

Who would require an explanation?

The player is required to provide ID, but in my experience the slot attendant doesn't check the player's card.

They immediately remove it and insert their own card to begin the payment process.

Yes to the last sentence. In Nevada, they ask me if I've hit a previous jackpot. I say yes, and then they come back with the w2g populated from my players club info. I don't typically show ID.

Procedures may vary by jurisdiction, I presume.

[coach belly]

I don't typically show ID.

They will bring a W2G to a player that does not provide ID?

How do the establish who the player is without ID?

[Don Perignom]

They will bring a W2G to a player that does not provide ID?

How do the establish who the player is without ID?

I've been told I look trustworthy.

They assume the card that was in the machine belongs to me.

I would show ID if they asked.

[coach belly]

They assume the card that was in the machine belongs to me.

They check the player's card and accept it as proof of ID for a W2G?

If yes, then why would the woman in your post have anything to explain?

For the first taxable, she probably has a cover story to explain why the inserted card doesn't match her identity. But then what happens an hour later when she hits a taxable on a different card that also isn't hers?

[Rob.Singer]

They assume the card that was in the machine belongs to me.

They check the player's card and accept it as proof of ID for a W2G?

If yes, then why would the woman in your post have anything to explain?

For the first taxable, she probably has a cover story to explain why the inserted card doesn't match her identity. But then what happens an hour later when she hits a taxable on a different card that also isn't hers?

They ALWAYS ask for a DL or other ID unless it's the same slot attendant who recalls things (unless a different supervisor appears) even if a dozen previous taxable were hit during the same session--which is very common on high limit VP.

The info and background on this slot game provided by mickey is VERY interesting and educating. Thank you!

[coach belly]

They ALWAYS ask for a DL or other ID unless it's the same slot attendant who recalls things

That's been my experience.

They'll also ask for your SS#, unless they already have it on file.

But do the slot attendants check to see if the player's card in the machine matches the player's ID?

...then ask for an explanation if they don't match?

[Don Perignom]

That's been my experience.

They'll also ask for your SS#, unless they already have it on file.

I think we all agree you can't assume they won't ask for ID.

For the SS#, they need you to sign form W-9. But once that's on file, they don't ask for it again (unless it expires?).

[Rob.Singer]

They ALWAYS ask for a DL or other ID unless it's the same slot attendant who recalls things

That's been my experience.

They'll also ask for your SS#, unless they already have it on file.

But do the slot attendants check to see if the player's card in the machine matches the player's ID?

...then ask for an explanation if they don't match?

Regarding ID and slot card matching--I've always & only used my own card and real ID. On the 1st signer of the session, they look to see that they match. I don't know what would happen if they don't. Probably not much, because the overriding requirement is to ID the actual player so the tax form gets written up correctly. Then on follow-up $1200+ hits, they just use your previously provided ID to fill in the form.

As in anything in life, if you're gonna try and game the system, know your stuff.

[MisterV]

In Nevada, they ask me if I've hit a previous jackpot. I say yes, and then they come back with the w2g populated from my players club info. I don't typically show ID.

That has been my experience in the two tribal casinos I regularly play at; they no longer ask for any ID when I hit a hand pay, they have it on file.

[coach belly]

they no longer ask for any ID when I hit a hand pay, they have it on file.

How do they identify the player (you) as Mr. V without ID?

[MaxPen]

they no longer ask for any ID when I hit a hand pay, they have it on file.

How do they identify the player as Mr. V without ID?

A lot of casinos scan an image of your ID when signing up for a player card. Front and back photos are on file. It's 2024. Some places even know your'e on property when you walk thru the door.

[MisterV]

they no longer ask for any ID when I hit a hand pay, they have it on file.

How do they identify the player (you) as Mr. V without ID?

Ask them.

IIRC they open the inquiry by asking if I've had a hand pay there before, and when I say "Yes" they head off to the cage and return with the cash and the W2-G for me to sign.

I've no clue whether these tribal joints use facial recognition but they can always confirm by looking at the scanned copy of my driver's license they got when I submitted it at the player's club some time ago when I got a player's card: it has my photo.