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Thread: Stop limits.

  1. #41
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post

    Does it work better from certain seats or do you multi-count from all the tables equally?
    For most table configurations, of tables in a row next to each other, it is the middle seat or if 6 seats, either of the two middle seats. This mean because of the curvature of the table any other players at you table will not be blocking your view. It also allows you to see the tables on both sides, without swiveling your head like the girl from The Exorcist movie.

    While no one at your table will block your view, there is one key seat at each table, left or right that can. As long as that key seat at either table is vacant, you usually have a clear view of the entire playing area.

    As I have said many times, circumstances have to be just right, including the speed of the game at your own table. If you are playing heads up or maybe with one other player and a reasonably fast dealer, you will not be able to keep up and utilize this technique. But every once in a while, maybe a couple times a week for me, you find yourself able to and when that occurs, your expected value (EV) and win rate is significantly higher (pretty much double). I use 1.75 of my normal EV and long-term results are pretty much in line with that.

    It isn't something I go looking for or seek out. As a matter of fact, I play many places that don't even have 2 blackjack tables open next to each other. But when conditions are right, it is a significant bump to expectation and results. (even if that secondary count is off slightly due to missed cards).

  2. #42
    Again, I know little about blackjack counting but it seems very suspicious to me to have your eyes darting from one side to the other to keep up with counting. You'd appear like a deranged broken Chucky doll, no?

    In fact wouldn't your neck have to crane back and forth to some degree? You don't have peripheral vision that great at the edges of 160 degrees or whatever your field of view would need to be. No?

    It all sounds fishy to me but whatever. I can see how one could count a 2nd table but not _multiple_ tables. Fascinating.
    It is official. Redietz will never be on Dan Druff's podcast. "too much integrity"

  3. #43
    Anything over one is multiple

  4. #44
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    Again, I know little about blackjack counting but it seems very suspicious to me to have your eyes darting from one side to the other to keep up with counting. You'd appear like a deranged broken Chucky doll, no?

    In fact wouldn't your neck have to crane back and forth to some degree? You don't have peripheral vision that great at the edges of 160 degrees or whatever your field of view would need to be. No?
    I'll tell ya what? Give it a try. Go to a casino that has multiple table in a row, sit in the middle seat and look to the table to your right. If the key seat is open and you have a clear view of the playing surface, you can almost see it while looking straight ahead via that peripheral vision. If not it is really a matter of an inch or two. It's like looking at 1:00 angle and you will have that view. Try in and get back to me.

  5. #45
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Anything over one is multiple
    That is correct. If you are counting cards and playing, you are "tracking" a table. If you are doing so and tracking a second game next to you, you are tracking multiple tables. I don't know what is so hard to understand.

  6. #46
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    Again, I know little about blackjack counting but it seems very suspicious to me to have your eyes darting from one side to the other to keep up with counting. You'd appear like a deranged broken Chucky doll, no?

    In fact wouldn't your neck have to crane back and forth to some degree? You don't have peripheral vision that great at the edges of 160 degrees or whatever your field of view would need to be. No?
    I'll tell ya what? Give it a try. Go to a casino that has multiple table in a row, sit in the middle seat and look to the table to your right. If the key seat is open and you have a clear view of the playing surface, you can almost see it while looking straight ahead via that peripheral vision. If not it is really a matter of an inch or two. It's like looking at 1:00 angle and you will have that view. Try in and get back to me.
    So you're saying you count 1 table on each side without moving your eyes?

    I wear glasses so it won't work as glasses don't begin to cover that area of a person's view.

    I mean, I guess maybe if I had proper vision I'd be able to discern faces from pips at like 2:40 and 9:20 but my vision isn't even good enough to attempt such a feat. I'm too myopic.

    Too bad because I'd go downstairs and give it a try otherwise.
    It is official. Redietz will never be on Dan Druff's podcast. "too much integrity"

  7. #47
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    So you're saying you count 1 table on each side without moving your eyes?
    Come on dude! You are slipping into coach belly and Alan territory here with your twisting things.

    Tracking a second table is rare. You need a decent size casino with a fair number of tables open. (think strip casinos or south point). And other conditions and circumstances have to be just right.

    Tracking two other table (from the one you are playing) is very rare. And it can only be done for a couple rounds at best. For the second half of Novemeber I played and focused on a game with a beatable side bet, until it was shut down, so I didn't play my regular game/style, But I know I tracked and jumped to a second table just before that in early November, last time I was playing regularly. I am trying to think of last time I tracked 2 other tables. Maybe earlier this year. Maybe not even this year. I don't remember. It is rare and it is becoming rarer as there are fewer and fewer regular blackjack tables with the influxion of so many new game (with higher house edges).

    Don't try to make it out that I play one game and track 2 other tables regularly.

    Now that said, it is all a progression. For anyone that counts cards regularly, either as a professional or just serious player, or even recreational that plays a lot, they they naturally start expanding things. You walk by a table and glance at the cards on the felt for half a second and pick up the count. Maybe jump into a good count. That type of thing.

    Most profession and serious players now exit at least some of the negative counts. The days of sitting at one table and playing all are all but gone for any kind of serious player. Playing through all those negative counts requires a huge spread to make any real money and you will be noticed quickly.

    When you play that style (exiting at least some negative counts), you find a new game or opportunity after exiting the first. Eventually you just start looking for that new opportunity before you have even exited the first. It is just a progression that falls into place. I never woke up one morning and said, I am going to track multiple tables. It just happens. You just start seeking that next game or opportunity.

  8. #48
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Anything over one is multiple
    That is correct. If you are counting cards and playing, you are "tracking" a table. If you are doing so and tracking a second game next to you, you are tracking multiple tables. I don't know what is so hard to understand.
    He presumably thinks it needs to be over two to be multiple. It IS difficult to understand how one would think that.

  9. #49
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    Again, I know little about blackjack counting but it seems very suspicious to me to have your eyes darting from one side to the other to keep up with counting. You'd appear like a deranged broken Chucky doll, no?

    In fact wouldn't your neck have to crane back and forth to some degree? You don't have peripheral vision that great at the edges of 160 degrees or whatever your field of view would need to be. No?
    I'll tell ya what? Give it a try. Go to a casino that has multiple table in a row, sit in the middle seat and look to the table to your right. If the key seat is open and you have a clear view of the playing surface, you can almost see it while looking straight ahead via that peripheral vision. If not it is really a matter of an inch or two. It's like looking at 1:00 angle and you will have that view. Try in and get back to me.
    So you're saying you count 1 table on each side without moving your eyes?

    I wear glasses so it won't work as glasses don't begin to cover that area of a person's view.

    I mean, I guess maybe if I had proper vision I'd be able to discern faces from pips at like 2:40 and 9:20 but my vision isn't even good enough to attempt such a feat. I'm too myopic.

    Too bad because I'd go downstairs and give it a try otherwise.

    Account, I know nothing about blackjack, but when this topic was introduced, I went into a handful of Las Vegas casinos and measured the distances between empty tables with a tape measure (nobody bothered me). I measured with me standing behind a middle seat, and I checked the middle seat adjacent and the farthest seat distances. They did vary a bit, casino to casino. Then I went home and laid out cards at those distances. I did okay at the middle-to-middle card identifying, and I could tell pips from not pips at the farthest distances. My eyes suck, by the way.

    Now I'm not saying this would translate into seeing between people and coping with movement during live games and all that, but the basic visual acuity to do it unquestionably is available to anyone with reasonable eyesight.

    The most valuable thing I got out of the discussion, and it's obvious but I had never framed it this way, is that ALL counts are PARTIAL counts. So not having perfect counts or anything close to perfect counts is really not germane. What matters is that any count provides some information. Not being a blackjack player, that hadn't really occurred to me. It's an obvious fact, but I had never thought about it that way.

  10. #50
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Anything over one is multiple
    In the most technical sense but usually when people say multiple they mean 3 or more otherwise the word is not used. The dictionary definition uses the word "several". Is 2 also "several"?

    This has always been my belief.

    But yes 2 is a multiple but in that regard 1 is also a multiple. If your cap on something is 2, you don't use multiple unless you're being misleading IMO.
    It is official. Redietz will never be on Dan Druff's podcast. "too much integrity"

  11. #51
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    The most valuable thing I got out of the discussion, and it's obvious but I had never framed it this way, is that ALL counts are PARTIAL counts. So not having perfect counts or anything close to perfect counts is really not germane. What matters is that any count provides some information. Not being a blackjack player, that hadn't really occurred to me. It's an obvious fact, but I had never thought about it that way.
    Very good redietz.

    Suppose I sit down at a 6 deck game, very average and mediocre penetration of 1.5 decks cut off or 75% penetration. I start counting and count perfectly or maybe making a very occasional error to allow for the human element. many small cards come out. The running counts goes to +12 with 3 decks remaining of which 1.5 will be played. That is a +4 true count or at least 1.5% player advantage. The player is at an advantage because there are more 10's and aces left in the deck to come out which favor the player. So I play through that 1.5 decks until the shuffle comes out betting my max bets. Maybe I win, maybe I lose.

    So when the cut card comes out the running count is +9 or +10. Guess what? all those excess 10's and aces never came out. They were behind the cut card never to have been played. That is because the whole count, the whole 4.5 decks that I counted were really only a partial count. It hasn't been a complete count since the days they dealt to the last card. So every count is a partial count. There are cards unseen and uncounted, whether they are behind the cut card and never played or whether you missed a card or two or counted a 7 as a low card when it was not.

    Partial counts are what we have today's world. But if you increase you wagers based on that partial count and perceived advantage. you will win (longterm) because you are playing with an advantage even based on that partial count. This is proven mathematically. I credit Stanford Wong for it because it is the basis behind "wonging" into a partial advantageous count for which he is known. Probably was someone else before him that first figured it out though.

  12. #52
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post

    I'll tell ya what? Give it a try. Go to a casino that has multiple table in a row, sit in the middle seat and look to the table to your right. If the key seat is open and you have a clear view of the playing surface, you can almost see it while looking straight ahead via that peripheral vision. If not it is really a matter of an inch or two. It's like looking at 1:00 angle and you will have that view. Try in and get back to me.
    So you're saying you count 1 table on each side without moving your eyes?

    I wear glasses so it won't work as glasses don't begin to cover that area of a person's view.

    I mean, I guess maybe if I had proper vision I'd be able to discern faces from pips at like 2:40 and 9:20 but my vision isn't even good enough to attempt such a feat. I'm too myopic.

    Too bad because I'd go downstairs and give it a try otherwise.

    Account, I know nothing about blackjack, but when this topic was introduced, I went into a handful of Las Vegas casinos and measured the distances between empty tables with a tape measure (nobody bothered me). I measured with me standing behind a middle seat, and I checked the middle seat adjacent and the farthest seat distances. They did vary a bit, casino to casino. Then I went home and laid out cards at those distances. I did okay at the middle-to-middle card identifying, and I could tell pips from not pips at the farthest distances. My eyes suck, by the way.

    Now I'm not saying this would translate into seeing between people and coping with movement during live games and all that, but the basic visual acuity to do it unquestionably is available to anyone with reasonable eyesight.

    The most valuable thing I got out of the discussion, and it's obvious but I had never framed it this way, is that ALL counts are PARTIAL counts. So not having perfect counts or anything close to perfect counts is really not germane. What matters is that any count provides some information. Not being a blackjack player, that hadn't really occurred to me. It's an obvious fact, but I had never thought about it that way.
    Oh I know you can do it. I don't think it is an incredible feat. I'm just picturing how it'd play out and I see chucky doll eyes. There are similar things in really good draw players. The good players get sneaky about trying to see how people fuck with their cards. They often use peripheral vision to disguise this fact. The guys at the top (in my circles) do that stuff but I've never incorporated it I just catch them sometimes because I'm lazy about my card handling.

    I lose a lot on my peripheral vision but that is because I'm myopic. So I can't even begin to test whether I could do this. I guess I could hold my glasses at a weird angle to my face.

    Yes, you shouldn't need a perfect count. At some point you go too far with being loosey goosey just like you can go too far having a perfect count. That could lead to mental fatigue. Everything is a balance. Yes, I believe Kewl could sit at a table in an empty casino and count 2 tables at once if everything lined up at once. Yes, count doesn't need to be perfect.

    I guess the chucky doll's eyes didn't flop around so that was a rather poor description. I don't know - maybe my peripheral vision is only bad because of my myopia and reliance on glasses.
    It is official. Redietz will never be on Dan Druff's podcast. "too much integrity"

  13. #53
    So If I sometimes track 2 tables and occasionally track 3, I can't say I track multiple tables? I think we are getting real sidetracked on a nit-picking type thing here.

    But I have a pretty good example to give. Baseball tracks multiple hit games by players. Gues what qualifies? 2 or more.

  14. #54
    It’s almost a pan pamb situation.

  15. #55
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    So you're saying you count 1 table on each side without moving your eyes?
    Come on dude! You are slipping into coach belly and Alan territory here with your twisting things.

    Tracking a second table is rare. You need a decent size casino with a fair number of tables open. (think strip casinos or south point). And other conditions and circumstances have to be just right.

    Tracking two other table (from the one you are playing) is very rare. And it can only be done for a couple rounds at best. For the second half of Novemeber I played and focused on a game with a beatable side bet, until it was shut down, so I didn't play my regular game/style, But I know I tracked and jumped to a second table just before that in early November, last time I was playing regularly. I am trying to think of last time I tracked 2 other tables. Maybe earlier this year. Maybe not even this year. I don't remember. It is rare and it is becoming rarer as there are fewer and fewer regular blackjack tables with the influxion of so many new game (with higher house edges).

    Don't try to make it out that I play one game and track 2 other tables regularly.

    Now that said, it is all a progression. For anyone that counts cards regularly, either as a professional or just serious player, or even recreational that plays a lot, they they naturally start expanding things. You walk by a table and glance at the cards on the felt for half a second and pick up the count. Maybe jump into a good count. That type of thing.

    Most profession and serious players now exit at least some of the negative counts. The days of sitting at one table and playing all are all but gone for any kind of serious player. Playing through all those negative counts requires a huge spread to make any real money and you will be noticed quickly.

    When you play that style (exiting at least some negative counts), you find a new game or opportunity after exiting the first. Eventually you just start looking for that new opportunity before you have even exited the first. It is just a progression that falls into place. I never woke up one morning and said, I am going to track multiple tables. It just happens. You just start seeking that next game or opportunity.
    Then just say I sometimes count down a 2nd table or whatever. When you say multiple you suggested a floor of 2 possibly 3. Now it has been clarified. I still don't know why you'd want to sit at the seat to maximize the difference of angle to your field of view. I'd think other seats would have been choice, but not the middle seat. Then 2 tables, why that seat? You'd take that seat if you're doing multiple tables but thats super rare. Confused but I'm also clearly playing the role of Belly Jr. Kewlj is one of the best. I'm curious what all is possible. Anyone who can make it that far in Vegas grinding out the same gig for so many years is at the top of that game.

    Shit I have a hard time finding 3:2 outside of el cortez or plaza but I'm not exactly scouting for it.
    It is official. Redietz will never be on Dan Druff's podcast. "too much integrity"

  16. #56
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Anything over one is multiple
    That is correct. If you are counting cards and playing, you are "tracking" a table. If you are doing so and tracking a second game next to you, you are tracking multiple tables. I don't know what is so hard to understand.
    He presumably thinks it needs to be over two to be multiple. It IS difficult to understand how one would think that.
    1 is also a multiple.

    I mean maybe my understanding of when to use multiple is flawed. I can go with that. If you read the dictionary definition it alludes to several. With multiple you are suggesting a floor of either 2 or 3. Now he laid it out so he doesn't seem like the 5 million dollar man.
    It is official. Redietz will never be on Dan Druff's podcast. "too much integrity"

  17. #57
    I can't believe we are back on this multi table counting discussion. Just go to a casino and sit down at a table while games are in progress. If you can't see action at another table than your own then you are blind. Or the casino is packed.....RIP
    FraudJ's word is worth less than the prop cash in Singer's safe...RIP

  18. #58
    Wait it was the 6 million dollar man. Kewlj is the 6 million dollar man. Using his amped up superpower skills to keep people the likes of Rob Singer and Mdawg in line and counting multiple tables.



    SOrry guys needed to finish off edibles for trip home.
    It is official. Redietz will never be on Dan Druff's podcast. "too much integrity"

  19. #59
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    I can't believe we are back on this multi table counting discussion. Just go to a casino and sit down at a table while games are in progress. If you can't see action at another table than your own then you are blind. Or the casino is packed.....RIP
    Yea, well I'm probably eating shit on this but I have 0 experience. If you other guys say you can do it. I never said you couldn't, I just feel it'd be suspicious as fuck but I guess if you have no heat to begin with then who is going to notice? Ok I won't give Kewlj shit anymore for the rest of the year. He's an ok guy. I won't be going coach belly.
    It is official. Redietz will never be on Dan Druff's podcast. "too much integrity"

  20. #60
    Originally Posted by accountinquestion View Post
    I won't be going coach belly.
    You are really going more Alan than coach belly. You are making the exact arguments Alan has made for a few years now, including recently on another forum, I wasn't even on. He has even used the super eyesight argument. No super eyesight or powers necessary.

    I will tell you what...here is a little exercise I suggested to Alan. Tape a few playing cards (normal size, no jumbo or anything) to a wall. Back up 10-12 feet. Can you see what that card is? Of course you can...well assuming you are not totally blind. Well 12 feet is probably double the distance you are looking at the neighboring table. So let's just remove the eyesight thing from the equation.

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