Dealer Angels BJ

[redietz]

He's grinding nothing but a stalemate and getting nowhere fast.

I understand that from YOUR viewpoint.

But he doesn't seem to have gone through his bankroll in all these years and there are one hell of a lot of people in this world that their existence is making enough to barely keep a roof over their head and a little chow in their stomach, sort of on a day to day basis.

Now might be a good time to point out that of Americans who die, more than 70% die in debt, and the average debt for those in debt is more than 60K. So "treading water" is better than what a majority of Americans manage to do. Welcome to American reality.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ameri...hssrp_catchall

[MaxPen]

A lot of low limit poker players in this town live like that, including the guy I took in for a number of years. And for you pervs, No there was no sex involved. for

I met a dude in his mid 20's about same age as me, shortly after I moved to Vegas, over in the little sportsbook cafe or food outlet at Rio. His story was that he played poker for a living. He earned free rooms at the lower ceasar's properties, like Imperial Palace, Harrahs', Flamingo on weekdays and slept in his car on Friday and Saturday nights. Very occasionally when he had a good run, he would stay in one of those Siegle suites places for a week.

Eventually I told him he could crash at my place on weekends so he didn't have to sleep in his car. It took me 7 years and before I finally got rid of him. During that time, he was always building his BR and always had just experienced a bad beat that set him back. He did everything from working at the fright dome thing at Circus Circus, to the Gondola boats at Venicia to one summer selling bottled water on the strip 8 hours a day to keep fueling his bankroll.

All the while, he told people he played poker for a living. And he did play poker most days, but....

I still find these stories of living on the fringe of Vegas and gambling interesting. Wouldn't want it, but I find it interesting, what people will do.

Homeless gamblers living in their cars are a dime a dozen in this town. The fuck if any one of them would even wind up in my garage. No matter the sob story.

[MaxPen]

He's grinding nothing but a stalemate and getting nowhere fast.

I understand that from YOUR viewpoint.

But he doesn't seem to have gone through his bankroll in all these years and there are one hell of a lot of people in this world that their existence is making enough to barely keep a roof over their head and a little chow in their stomach, sort of on a day to day basis.

Now might be a good time to point out that of Americans who die, more than 70% die in debt, and the average debt for those in debt is more than 60K. So "treading water" is better than what a majority of Americans manage to do. Welcome to American reality.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ameri...hssrp_catchall

That is not negative equity. It is just the outstanding debt amount. A lot of that gets settled in their estates. The average person leaves around $300K in their estate.

[kewlJ]

Homeless gamblers living in their cars are a dime a dozen in this town. The fuck if any one of them would even wind up in my garage. No matter the sob story.

Not to worry MaxPen, no one will ever accuse you of being sympathetic to anyone or anything.

I guess a benefit of that is you don't have to everworry about heart disease or heart attack. You have a big chunk of coal where your heart should be.

[Ozzy]

Homeless gamblers living in their cars are a dime a dozen in this town. The fuck if any one of them would even wind up in my garage. No matter the sob story.

Not to worry MaxPen, no one will ever accuse you of being sympathetic to anyone or anything.

I guess a benefit of that is you don't have to everworry about heart disease or heart attack. You have a big chunk of coal where your heart should be.

I'm sure Max is an overall decent guy. There are a couple of others on this forum, that I wouldn't say the same about.

[kewlJ]

Did I say MaxPen wasn't a decent guy?

I'm just saying if we ever have a particularly cold winter here in Vegas, MaxPen will have plenty of coal to burn.

[mcap]

I can completely relate to the nomadic AP lifestyle. I went more then a decade without paying a mortgage and ended up banking a decent sum over the years. Far from wealthy, but a solid amount to live well for the next 40-45 years. I really enjoy travelling so for me it came naturally. I've never been a domestic stay in one area guy.

I think me and ozzy finally agree on something. If you prefer not to be home 80% or the time and live alone, what’s the point of paying rent when you’re never there or if owning having your shit you own robbed when people know you’re gone.

[tableplay]

There was a lot of things one could do. Take the ecraps with 3X odds, a .4% house house edge. You bet both sides and give up the .4% but are getting 1% cashback. It's no variance/rake in the cash. That sort of thing.

Yes the 10x Wednesdays at Rail City (Sparks) were fun. They had Bubble Craps and it was not neutered in terms of cashback - I think it was the same as VP (.5% or something on a 1X day IIRC). You'd need two stations since hedge betting (don't and pass line at the same time) was not allowed on a single station (software restriction), so it was best done with a partner - especially after they affixed the worded clear tape on the stations after some time that said "one station per player" or words to that effect. Memories.

[mickeycrimm]

He's grinding nothing but a stalemate and getting nowhere fast.

I understand that from YOUR viewpoint.

But he doesn't seem to have gone through his bankroll in all these years and there are one hell of a lot of people in this world that their existence is making enough to barely keep a roof over their head and a little chow in their stomach, sort of on a day to day basis.

Now might be a good time to point out that of Americans who die, more than 70% die in debt, and the average debt for those in debt is more than 60K. So "treading water" is better than what a majority of Americans manage to do. Welcome to American reality.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ameri...hssrp_catchall

Redietz, this is about as misleading as anything you have ever posted. Having debt when one dies does not mean that one had zero net worth. You know that. So why do you keep putting up bullshit like this.

When he died Joe Blow was living in his 250K house that he paid off 20 years before he died. Owned 200K in stocks and bonds. Had a pound of gold in his safe deposit box and a nice savings account. His cash flow was a 401K, Social Security and stock dividends.

Because he had about 60K in liabilities/loans on cars and other play toys you want us to believe he died penniless.

You are the one that needs a good dose of reality.

[Don Perignom]

Inspired by the other thread, have any of you suspected a rigged game?

I don't have anything recent. As I recall, I've had a couple of bad runs at particular game/machine types, but most likely I reverted back to a nearly as good vp game rather than continuing to challenge the unknown.

[tableplay]

Inspired by the other thread, have any of you suspected a rigged game?

I don't have anything recent. As I recall, I've had a couple of bad runs at particular game/machine types, but most likely I reverted back to a nearly as good vp game rather than continuing to challenge the unknown.

Well what I wanted to say in the other thread (but didn't since I didn't want to pollute it as I wrote there) was that UX is a turn-the-handle-of the-meat-grinder sort of a job. It's like assembly line work really. So player bias can't really creep in too easily. So after many thousands of screens if you are not getting the same sort of results in a regulated environment versus an unregulated one, the chance for player bias grows ever smaller and the chance that there is some level of gaffing grows ever larger. What supports this contrast even more is that large edges (5% up to 1100%) will really lay bare gaffing more so than 1% edge games. At very large edges, you are squashing the variance (coefficient of variation becomes smaller) so things become much more stark when there is gaffing present. Maybe a better way to express it would be to say that even the left tail of the bell curve (-3 standard deviations) will be to the right of zero (an even game) at huge advantages if the game is fair/ungaffed.

As to your question, online gaffing (Real Time Gaming and Parlay for example) is all but certain.

[Don Perignom]

As to your question, online gaffing (Real Time Gaming and Parlay for example) is all but certain.

Yes I agree. Some online games are gaffed, and some operators can doomswitch specific players. It's almost inevitable with so many software providers and operators, not to mention the quasi-outlaw industry status that discourages conventional entrepreneurs from participating.

[mickeycrimm]

The gaffing of machines is a very complicated subject. There are so many premises and variables they can't all be listed. Take the gaffing of video pokers. Which payscales would you gaff?

Would you gaff a bad pay like 7/5 double double where the house already has over a 4% edge? Or a breakeven payscale like 10/6 double double?

So you would gaff the 10/6 right? Why would an Indian casino take out the good video poker payscales (that might be gaffed) and leave in the bad payscales? I've seen that happen many times.

90% of what I do is in Indian casinos. I make a very healthy profit. So to me all the talk about gaffing is a red herring. The first noticeable thing in the ones I play is there are very few video pokers. And they don't get any action. It's like they are there just for a public service. All the suckers are playing the slot games that are at least a 7% house edge and go as high as 15%.

What would be the hustle in gaffing video pokers? You put in a good but gaffed payscale. Some knowledgeable player sees it and says "Hey, thats a strong payscale! I'm gonna play!" But he gets his clock cleaned because its gaffed. Thats how it should work right?

But what does the average casino patron (they outnumber knowledgeable players 100 to 1) know about video poker payback? These players would just as soon sit down on a 7/5 DDB as a 10/6 DDB. So why are you gaffing the shit up?

Now, for slots. There's nothing there that says anything about payback to the public. How would you gaff a slot game? Well, the only thing you can do is put in a lower paying chip. Ahhhhhhh! So that's what "gaffed" is? Cutting the payback.

Here's an insider secret. All the slot games on CZR properties are gaffed. How do I know? Because they only payback 85%. If that's not gaffed nothing is.

And 95% of CZR properties are commercial casinos, not Indian casinos. So if you want gaffed go to CZR. I really have to laugh at the thought that someone would think it necessary to gaff a game they hold a 15% edge in.

I remember the days when most of the machines in the casinos were video pokers. But that's all changed. Video pokers just don't make the money in the casinos anymore. Yeah, sure, the Vegas locals joints are different. But out here in the big ol' USA all the suckers are playing slots that have house edges from 7% to 15%. The casino floors are 99% slot games and 1% video pokers.

With such big edges....what would be the point....of gaffing them? You already have a license to steal.

So....to me....all the talk about gaffing is just a red herring.

[mickeycrimm]

He has his roof for THAT night or the next couple nights. That is the lifestyle he chose. If it appeals to him, what is so terrible. Nobody says you have to do it.

What does a guy thats lived in the same home for two years and a guy thats lived in two dozen hotels in the last two years have in common?

They both had a roof over their heads for two years.

[Don Perignom]

So....to me....all the talk about gaffing is just a red herring.

Yes, gaffing has almost no meaning in the context of slot machines where probabilities are undisclosed. It concerns me though that designs may be evolving toward deception and trickery. If deception is normalized for slots, then it may stray into other game categories.

My vp play has been relatively stress free, but I would like to hear more from tableplay about his (mostly) UX disparities, if not already discussed.

I've made money in both environments (net up), but have made proportionately more money in regulated environments (taking into account bet size and action).

The e-table category is potentially uncomfortable for operators because of structurally low house edges. Roulette at 5% is the exception. BJ can be protected with 6-to-5 payouts. But baccarat and craps are usually offered with normal payouts -- potentially a 1% or less edge without any skill required. I'm not accusing, but any moderate fudging of probabilities would significantly improve holds.

[mickeycrimm]

Tony will forever be living on the same bankroll amount. No future I'd want.

BigChucky should be nicknamed 50k for life.

While his "existence" wouldn't appeal to me either or most AP's, at least for more than a couple weeks, if it appealed to him, and it obviously did, it is a fascinating tale of a journey and existence from an grind it out AP standpoint.

Roxy Roxborough was once a struggling AP living in his car in Reno. He's never been shy about talking about it. He finally got so good at beating baseball totals that the Cal Neva asked him to set their lines. Thats how he got his start in the sportsbetting industry.

[redietz]

BigChucky should be nicknamed 50k for life.

While his "existence" wouldn't appeal to me either or most AP's, at least for more than a couple weeks, if it appealed to him, and it obviously did, it is a fascinating tale of a journey and existence from an grind it out AP standpoint.

Roxy Roxborough was once a struggling AP living in his car in Reno. He's never been shy about talking about it. He finally got so good at beating baseball totals that the Cal Neva asked him to set their lines. Thats how he got his start in the sportsbetting industry.

I have a friend who hung out with Roxy at the Las Vegas Hilton back in the day. Mike Lee was part of that crowd (people told me that Mike Lee and myself had very similar approaches to college football handicapping).

I haven't yet listened to the show featuring Roxy. Did he explain why he left Las Vegas and where he went? That's an interesting story by itself; fascinating, really.

Munch and Dancer might want to someday invite Roxy and my friend onto the show for a reminiscing session. I'm sure Roxy remembers her, as there were not many "hers" hanging with that crowd at the time.

[tableplay]

So....to me....all the talk about gaffing is just a red herring.

Yes, gaffing has almost no meaning in the context of slot machines where probabilities are undisclosed. It concerns me though that designs may be evolving toward deception and trickery. If deception is normalized for slots, then it may stray into other game categories.

My vp play has been relatively stress free, but I would like to hear more from tableplay about his (mostly) UX disparities, if not already discussed.

I've made money in both environments (net up), but have made proportionately more money in regulated environments (taking into account bet size and action).

The e-table category is potentially uncomfortable for operators because of structurally low house edges. Roulette at 5% is the exception. BJ can be protected with 6-to-5 payouts. But baccarat and craps are usually offered with normal payouts -- potentially a 1% or less edge without any skill required. I'm not accusing, but any moderate fudging of probabilities would significantly improve holds.

Operationally, it is a distinction without a difference - I 5-coin any screen that has one or more next hand multipliers and follow the discarding strategy for that pay table and theme, and I make a profit doing this, but there has been a drop off in the amount of profit made despite no change in operational protocol. I suppose taking a pin camera in and then figuring out exactly what the theoretical is versus the actual with a large enough sample size after reviewing footage later would be the only way to prove anything. I would also like to compare UX bonus streak theoretical versus actual as well since this game must be 10-coined (no difference in bet size between AP and ploppy) to access the multipliers and it seems that this game has actual closer to theoretical (this would be the naive theoretical of the current state and not some infinite series calculation of potential future multipliers in the streak).
There is no recourse if an Indian casino cheats since they are responsible for regulating themselves. At this point I only have the empirical observation of less profits on regular UX at a specific casino over thousands of screens, but I don't know the motivation for certain. Online casinos gaffe to increase profits and they do so because there is no recourse against the off shore casinos - so it is possible with things being so expensive with regard to operation of a brick and mortar and the cost of employing people, that they have a similar motivation since there is no recourse against cheating.
But again, unless I take a pin camera in and make exact calculations (I doubt I would take the trouble), my observations are meaningless and they will not affect me taking these plays as I have always done in the past - the crank of the meat grinder gets turned regardless.

[mcap]

If I am going to be honest with you, in my own humble opinion and without being sentimental of course, without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also looking into this matter with distinctive perspective,
I would like to say that I have nothing to say.

[tableplay]

But what does the average casino patron (they outnumber knowledgeable players 100 to 1) know about video poker payback? These players would just as soon sit down on a 7/5 DDB as a 10/6 DDB. So why are you gaffing the shit up?

With such big edges....what would be the point....of gaffing them? You already have a license to steal.

So....to me....all the talk about gaffing is just a red herring.

Well, in this context Mickey, I am talking specifically about 5-coin bets on UX with 1 or more next hand multipliers on the screen at a particular non-state-regulated casino. So, if I can presume, the question then becomes:
Why would the casino gaffe 5-coin bets on UX screens with one or more unused multipliers ?
Perhaps they want to discourage bonus hustlers since they put off the regular clientele and the bonus hustlers occupy seats that would get massively more action (the UX hustler just one and dones the multipliers and the ploppy plays a few hundred hands an hour) from a ploppy plus the additional hold they get from the much higher percentage of plopping discarding mistakes, but really I don't have a stronger answer to this question of the motivation - only the observation of less profits with no change in protocol (discarding strategy, strength of UX plays, and size of action).
I cannot comment on straight up VP play such as 7/5 DDB (ouch) or 10/6 DDB since I never play brick and mortar VP straight up anymore (online I play a lot of VP to hustle deposit bonuses) except to ABC free play if there are no UX plays, UX bonus streak plays or slot plays to use the free play on (no heat for running cards at this casino) - in this limited context of straight up play the games seem to behave normally, but it is a very small sample size so I have no strong opinion on these.
Anyway, as I wrote in a different post in this thread, this will not affect me taking the plays as I always have, nor the way I play the plays taken and I doubt I would take the trouble to bring in a pin camera to quantify my observations, so it probably wasn't worth mentioning from a material aspect. Actually, I would say it was player bias on my part, if I hadn't found that I am making less profit with no change in plays or habit with a pretty large sample size.