Objective proof?

[Alan Mendelson]

Lol yea I saw this.. press release from the MANUFACTURER.. Yet Rob with a bigger hit? Zilch.

Makes you wonder.. ok not really

I think the press release came from Station Casinos. Some of the locals have active PR departments... others don't.

I dont recall seeing press releases from major Strip casinos where $5/coin and bigger denominations are played.

I once reported on a million dollar craps roll at Caesars. There was no press release and I found out about it only because I was there when it happened.

When I asked Caesars for a quote for my report and asked one of the VPs why there was no press release, he said "because these things happen all the time."

Dealt royals on high denomination games are not unicorns. They might even happen every day.

This is likely the case but IGT is the entity that tweeted about it. It makes more sense it originated at Stations. Stations would bother to do it because they're a local casino with related marketing.

Amazingly not taken from the side.

Yea yea glare but you get glare from any angle and it could have just as well been alleviated by the height of the camera. But yea, Rob got out of his chair to take the picture. <eyeroll>

TBF - After reading Mickey's post I find it far more likely Rob took advantage of the DU bug but I do not for a second think he discovered it and if he did it was by pure luck from being a total degenerate puttin' in time.

Glad to have a REAL expert onboard, Alan.

Where did you see IGT?

I only saw a reference to STATION CASINOS.

[accountinquestion]

I think the press release came from Station Casinos. Some of the locals have active PR departments... others don't.

I dont recall seeing press releases from major Strip casinos where $5/coin and bigger denominations are played.

I once reported on a million dollar craps roll at Caesars. There was no press release and I found out about it only because I was there when it happened.

When I asked Caesars for a quote for my report and asked one of the VPs why there was no press release, he said "because these things happen all the time."

Dealt royals on high denomination games are not unicorns. They might even happen every day.

This is likely the case but IGT is the entity that tweeted about it. It makes more sense it originated at Stations. Stations would bother to do it because they're a local casino with related marketing.

Amazingly not taken from the side.

Yea yea glare but you get glare from any angle and it could have just as well been alleviated by the height of the camera. But yea, Rob got out of his chair to take the picture. <eyeroll>

TBF - After reading Mickey's post I find it far more likely Rob took advantage of the DU bug but I do not for a second think he discovered it and if he did it was by pure luck from being a total degenerate puttin' in time.

Glad to have a REAL expert onboard, Alan.

Where did you see IGT?

I only saw a reference to STATION CASINOS.

The tweet. My guess is that IGT's social media guy just used the release as a basis for their tweet. I might be wrong but probably not as I don't follow Stations casinos. Now IGT... lol

Actually this is it. Not IGT exactly but probably paid by them. My bad.

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1516443498618269697

[jbjb]

Small beans there. This one was from a member of WoV.

[kewlJ]

TBF - After reading Mickey's post I find it far more likely Rob took advantage of the DU bug but I do not for a second think he discovered it and if he did it was by pure luck from being a total degenerate puttin' in time.

edit - the reason I am more believing Singer did the DU is just due to the timeframe when Rob retired from video poker. 2009 - 1 month away from public outing of the 2 guys caught or whatever... Not saying he did it, but that is a pretty solid coincidence. Being who he is - someone could have very well told him of DU bug and so his nonsense about telepathy at least has a valid justification.

Fair enough. Now can I give two reasons for my opinion that Rob didn't do the double-up bug without all the shit about how I hate Rob. These are two facts of things Rob said on this message board. I am not going to look up the exact quotes because I am tired of wasting time. If anyone feels my paraphrasing is incorrect, feel free to comment and then it may become necessary to look up the quotes.

1.) when Rob made this announcement of the double up bug claim and changed his whole timeline to accommodate this new claim, he said two things that make no sense. He said something to the effect that all his other claims were made to mislead and mis-direct anyone that may have been looking for him. Who was it that he needed to mislead? Were there people on this message board that were on to Rob? The FBI was on this little message board and was on to Rob?

2.) the second thing Rob said occurred I think in 2013 (not 100% sure of the year without looking), when the Kane / Nestor double up story broke. In a discussion right here on this forum, Rob gave an opinion that what they did was illegal and that they should go to jail. Again, I believe this was 2013. IF Rob had done this play and stopped in 2009, the statute of limitations would have still been in effect. Since the Kane/Nestor case was still being investigated and was on trial at the time, imagine if those investigating had run across someone else (like Rob) that had made that play. And here is Rob admitting on a public forum that he knew or believed it was a crime. Come on, Even I don't think Rob is that stupid!

Not only would that statement he said about knowing or believing what Kane/Nestor did be very incriminating to someone that had done the same play, but anyone that had done that play wouldn't be posting on ANY public gambling forum. They would have kept their mouth shut. Again, for all his games and trolling, even I don't think Rob would have been THAT stupid.


The final point I will make is one I have made before. Perhaps Rob now knows the proper sequence to the play as he revealed to mickey in 2019 when he made this claim. That does not mean he knew it in 2006-2009. There are a number of ways he could have learned the sequence well after the fact. Perhaps he spoke directly to Kane or Nestor. Rob is always telling us of an FBI connection in his family and of government contacts. Perhaps he spoke with someone that worked or was familiar with the case. And the third possible way is after the story was published with the incorrect sequence, Rob may have located a machine or two in some out of the way casino that had not yet received the computer update correcting the glitch. Anyone locating a machine like that, it wouldn't take long to hit on the correct sequence. But if Rob discovered this sequence, he discovered it after the fact and wasn't able to play it for any significant money (as Dan Druff opined).

So Rob NOW knowing the correct sequence or knowing it in 2019 does not mean he knew it in 2006 and made 4-5 million playing this glitch. It just doesn't.

[Alan Mendelson]

I dont know who played or didn't play the DUB first, second or never. But I'm going to agree with something I believe jbjb posted first:

I would never have used it on a handpay. I'd use it to double up on full houses or straights... make a few hundred dollars before lunch, then a few hundred after lunch and call it a day.

[kewlJ]

Oh there is one other thing. Rob announced that he was doing that interview with Shackleford several days before the interview occurred. So there was a couple days of discussion prior to that interview. I believe it was first Axelwolf, followed by Dan Druff that said if Rob had really done the double up play, there should be something he could produce to prove it. Documentation or something.

So in the interview Shackleford asked for some kind of proof. Rob gave the standard excuse that he disposed of all tax records after 3 years, but finally what he offered up as proof, was that he used that money to buy a Newell RV for 1.5 million dollars. That was his proof. And we all know how that went in the days that followed with pictures of an RV on the showroom floor that did not belong to him. Doesn't that count for anything? Rob himself, offered the Newell up as his proof.

[kewlJ]

I dont know who played or didn't play the DUB first, second or never. But I'm going to agree with something I believe jbjb posted first:

I would never have used it on a handpay. I'd use it to double up on full houses or straights... make a few hundred dollars before lunch, then a few hundred after lunch and call it a day.

Would you have really done that Alan? And if so for how long? I don't know you at all, other than from message boards and mostly on opposite sides of discussions, but you strike me as a decent person. I don't think any decent person, could convince themselves for long, that hitting a jackpot playing a quarter denomination, and then changing the denomination after the hit to be paid as a $5 denomination, is not cheating and stealing. I know myself, maybe once or twice, I could talk myself into its a casino and their responsibility to make sure their machines have no glitches, but I would not be able to do that over and over. I just wouldn't.

[accountinquestion]

Oh there is one other thing. Rob announced that he was doing that interview with Shackleford several days before the interview occurred. So there was a couple days of discussion prior to that interview. I believe it was first Axelwolf, followed by Dan Druff that said if Rob had really done the double up play, there should be something he could produce to prove it. Documentation or something.

So in the interview Shackleford asked for some kind of proof. Rob gave the standard excuse that he disposed of all tax records after 3 years, but finally what he offered up as proof, was that he used that money to buy a Newell RV for 1.5 million dollars. That was his proof. And we all know how that went in the days that followed with pictures of an RV on the showroom floor that did not belong to him. Doesn't that count for anything? Rob himself, offered the Newell up as his proof.

In reference to the timeframe, I believe Mickey's take on things because I find him to be very truthful in what he says and if he would happen to be wrong it is very unlikely to be intentional.

You on the other hand are not that believable but are like 10x the Singer historian.

So between the 2 I have no clue about timeframes and won't care enough to research. I waste enough time as it is on this forum.

I forget these things - Newell brought up as proof. I barely read any other gambling forum. lol. Best case for Singer would be it is true and he only had cash payments.

I don't think Rob saying what they did was illegal really matters much TBH.

Anyway, it is all fun. I get a lot of lolz. Rob does some intentionally and others are headscratchers but he delivers regardless.

The whole thing to me is so bizarre. I still remember him posting in that Newell which was clearly at a dealership. Hamming it up in the pics but never could produce normal pictures like 100% of other RV owners would have. He seemed like just a troll who didn't care if he was believed.. but.. who the fuck knows about Singer.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. Hopefully.

[kewlJ]

In reference to the timeframe, I believe Mickey's take on things because I find him to be very truthful in what he says and if he would happen to be wrong it is very unlikely to be intentional.

You on the other hand are not that believable but are like 10x the Singer historian.

I never said mickey was intentionally wrong. I believe he honestly formed his opinion. I just think he is putting too much stock into that Singer may know the proper sequence years after the fact. There are other ways he could have found out that sequence. It doesn't mean he knew it in 2006 or anything about this play.

I see that using this handle you have only been on this forum since 2019. It feels like much longer since you seem to know things from way before that. Perhaps you were here using a different handle? Perhaps not. But I will say if you are not truly familiar with Singer, perhaps you should go back and read some of his history on this forum. You would see things like a hand written bill of sales for the Newell, on a piece of paper with no company stationary or logo. Just a generic form from the internet with the representative of the dealership and the buyer (Rob) all in the same handwriting. These things matter because that is what credibility is! If nothing else you would get a good laugh from this guy you find amusing.

Now, I am getting a little tired of you taking shots at me. I have been nothing but respectful to you since you came here. What is up with that?

[Alan Mendelson]

I dont know who played or didn't play the DUB first, second or never. But I'm going to agree with something I believe jbjb posted first:

I would never have used it on a handpay. I'd use it to double up on full houses or straights... make a few hundred dollars before lunch, then a few hundred after lunch and call it a day.

Would you have really done that Alan? And if so for how long? I don't know you at all, other than from message boards and mostly on opposite sides of discussions, but you strike me as a decent person. I don't think any decent person, could convince themselves for long, that hitting a jackpot playing a quarter denomination, and then changing the denomination after the hit to be paid as a $5 denomination, is not cheating and stealing. I know myself, maybe once or twice, I could talk myself into its a casino and their responsibility to make sure their machines have no glitches, but I would not be able to do that over and over. I just wouldn't.

I've admitted to playing $350 I found on a slot machine at Caesars. It was more than 20 years ago. Statute of limitations has passed.

But I thought the moral of the DUB story was that it wasn't a crime?

[MaxPen]

If anyone believes Rob.Singer ever owned a Newell then you will believe anything......RIP

There's a far better chance that this guy running around the country in a camper trailer, towed behind a pickup, was playing $5/5 hand UX and hit a dealt $160K multiplied royal in his first 20 minutes of ever playing the game. Then he made a run back to his daughter's house 8 miles away from the Newell dealer to put the winnings in a doomsday safe. But we are now going to have to wait until fall to see the w2-g........... C'mon Man

[MaxPen]

I dont know who played or didn't play the DUB first, second or never. But I'm going to agree with something I believe jbjb posted first:

I would never have used it on a handpay. I'd use it to double up on full houses or straights... make a few hundred dollars before lunch, then a few hundred after lunch and call it a day.

Would you have really done that Alan? And if so for how long? I don't know you at all, other than from message boards and mostly on opposite sides of discussions, but you strike me as a decent person. I don't think any decent person, could convince themselves for long, that hitting a jackpot playing a quarter denomination, and then changing the denomination after the hit to be paid as a $5 denomination, is not cheating and stealing. I know myself, maybe once or twice, I could talk myself into its a casino and their responsibility to make sure their machines have no glitches, but I would not be able to do that over and over. I just wouldn't.

No different than sitting on a hole card game or playing something that the house edge was calculated wrong. Would you not sit on a progressive with a miss set meter until they shut the machine down?

[accountinquestion]

In reference to the timeframe, I believe Mickey's take on things because I find him to be very truthful in what he says and if he would happen to be wrong it is very unlikely to be intentional.

You on the other hand are not that believable but are like 10x the Singer historian.

I never said mickey was intentionally wrong. I believe he honestly formed his opinion. I just think he is putting too much stock into that Singer may know the proper sequence years after the fact. There are other ways he could have found out that sequence. It doesn't mean he knew it in 2006 or anything about this play.

I see that using this handle you have only been on this forum since 2019. It feels like much longer since you seem to know things from way before that. Perhaps you were here using a different handle? Perhaps not. But I will say if you are not truly familiar with Singer, perhaps you should go back and read some of his history on this forum. You would see things like a hand written bill of sales for the Newell, on a piece of paper with no company stationary or logo. Just a generic form from the internet with the representative of the dealership and the buyer (Rob) all in the same handwriting. These things matter because that is what credibility is! If nothing else you would get a good laugh from this guy you find amusing.

Now, I am getting a little tired of you taking shots at me. I have been nothing but respectful to you since you came here. What is up with that?

I haven't been on any other pure gambling forums except for one that has been defunct for many years. I have been on a few poker forums but not as active for many years. I'm really not familiar with Singer outside of this forum.

It is fairly easy to know a lot about Singer given how much he is talked about.

Kewl, I like you but your yarns and obsession with these degenerates has opened you up to these shots. I wish you the best. I think you mean well overall.

I remember the Newell thread on here with the goofy faked paperwork and such. It had half this forum in tears. If that was a real attempt by Rob then <facepalm>. If he was trolling to get a rise out of us then well played. One of the best threads on here since I came around.

[kewlJ]

No different than sitting on a hole card game or playing something that the house edge was calculated wrong. Would you not sit on a progressive with a miss set meter until they shut the machine down?

Come on Maxpen, manipulating a computer glitch to pay much more than the player won and is entitled to is far different than these examples you are giving. What it is much more in line with is a computer glitch at an ATM that dispenses much more money than the people intended to withdraw and in every case I have seen of this kind of thing, the people receiving "the extra" money have had to repay the money a few cases went as far as prosecution

Alan's reference to the DU story not being a crime is because the case was eventually dropped, or initially lost and they decided not to re-prosecute. That doesn't mean it wasn't a crime, it means the prosecution screwed up the case. If I remember correctly, Kane and Nester were charged with something like "violation of the computer fraud and abuse act". While you can see how that could apply, those charges are usually reserved for computer hackers hacking into different financial or government systems for financial gain. Kane and Nestor should have been charged with theft which they never were.

Didn't the first prosecutor even step down or was removed or something? It was a case of a prosecutor trying to make a name and over-charging in a jurisdiction (PA) still new to gambling. And while it benefited Kane and Nestor and they were able to make whatever deal they made at the end, it does not mean it wasn't a crime as Alan suggested.

That I am even on this forum having to explain that hitting a jackpot for let's say $100 and manipulating the machine to pay $1000 is illegal, is kind of scary.

[redietz]

The only contribution I can make to this is from the sports gambling milieu. If you have a winning ticket, and the casino employee cashing the ticket makes an error and pays you some multiple of the actual winnings, when accounting catches that, you do have to pay back the overpayment. If you refuse, you will be charged. The reasons for this are pretty obvious, but once you have established that's the law for person/person transactions, then I'm assuming that it automatically applies to machine glitches as well.

MrV can chime in with some expertise here.

Now that sports wagering can be done online or from kiosks, this has some relevance. If a kiosk multiplies some winner, and I cash out my account, you can be assured the casino is coming after me.

[Alan Mendelson]

Kewlj the real question is would you use the DUB if you found yourself sitting at a machine that had it?

How about you found a yellow chip in the casino parking lot? Would you pocket it or turn it in?

When I played the $350 found on the slot my sister, brother in law and myself waited a half-hour for someone to show up.

When no one showed I played it. But I was fully prepared to give $350 to anyone who came by and said where's my money?

I also had no idea it was a felony.

If I ever found a wallet with $350 in the parking lot I'd turn it in.

But as Maxpen said, if I found a machine overpaying or over funding a progressive I'd camp out and order in my meals and a porta potty.

[Alan Mendelson]

The only contribution I can make to this is from the sports gambling milieu. If you have a winning ticket, and the casino employee cashing the ticket makes an error and pays you some multiple of the actual winnings, when accounting catches that, you do have to pay back the overpayment. If you refuse, you will be charged. The reasons for this are pretty obvious, but once you have established that's the law for person/person transactions, then I'm assuming that it automatically applies to machine glitches as well.

MrV can chime in with some expertise here.

Now that sports wagering can be done online or from kiosks, this has some relevance. If a kiosk multiplies some winner, and I cash out my account, you can be assured the casino is coming after me.

I'd take the money but be prepared to deal with the casino later.

There's a law that says when merchandise is sent to you in the mail and you didnt order it, you can keep it as a gift.

[kewlJ]

Good point Redietz, but the Kane/Nestor situation is even worse, because they did something to manipulate that malfunction or over-payment.

A person that walks up to an ATM, withdrawals $100 and is paid $500 really did nothing. It is a computer error. An overpayment by either a sports betting kiosk or a person paying the winning ticket, neither involves the intentional manipulation for that over-payment. And yet all of these instances the player doesn't get to keep the money. Why on earth would any reasonable person think it is ok to hit a jackpot at a 25 cent level, and manipulate the machine to pay at $5 level level?

It is just shocking to me that people are arguing this is ok?

Early in my AP career, on another forum, BJ21, someone told me that there is a very fine line between advantage play and cheating. I never "got that" but I can see it now. I don't understand it, but I see it in the attitudes. For me it is pretty simple. Advantage play is finding something that allows you to play at a legal advantage. Anything that crosses that line is not advantage play, it is cheating or stealing.

[kewlJ]

Kewlj the real question is would you use the DUB if you found yourself sitting at a machine that had it?

How about you found a yellow chip in the casino parking lot? Would you pocket it or turn it in?

When I played the $350 found on the slot my sister, brother in law and myself waited a half-hour for someone to show up.

When no one showed I played it. But I was fully prepared to give $350 to anyone who came by and said where's my money?

I also had no idea it was a felony.

If I ever found a wallet with $350 in the parking lot I'd turn it in.

These are good questions Alan. before I answer, I want to relay a similar experience I had to yours. It was back in my Atlantic City days. I used the bus for transportation back then from Phila to Atlantic City (getting the casino bonus that covered the cost of the ticket). So it was Showboat Casino at the time. I don't know what it is called now. There was a walk down a long hall from the bus depot section to the casino. I was usually at the front of my bus group because I was far younger than most of the bus patrons. So walking down the hall, I see an envelope on the carpet. Just looked like a piece of trash except in black marker it was written Grampa's gambling money. I was almost past it as I read it, but then scooped it up and headed for the men's room to see what was inside.

There was no way for me to identify "grandpa" and return his money. If there was a name instead of "grandpa", I would have paged him. But what was I going to do, page "grandpa who lost some money"? I could have turned it in to security. I suppose that is the proper thing to do. But I have no confidence that these underpaid security people aren't pocketing the money in those situations. A bit of "finders keepers" comes into play and that is what I did. Like you, at that time I didn't even know it was a crime.

Now I gotta tell ya, the casinos say if you find money or a chip in the casino, that it belongs to the casino. I don't really subscribe to that. If I am able to identify who it belongs to and return it I will, but after that, I don't buy that it belongs to the casino. This may be against the letter of the law, but I am comfortable with it.

Now to your question, what would I have done had I stumbled onto the double up bug. I don't think a person can really answer that until they find themselves in that situation. I can tell you that I would know that it was a crime to continue to take money that didn't belong to me. I don't think I would point this glitch out to the casino, but I don't think I would play it for long either. I would just walk away.

And I can say that based on an experience that I did have (much smaller scale). Again back in my AC days. There were at least 3 other players at the blackjack table, when they changed dealers. It was obviously a brand new dealer being broken in. Pit watched him for a few rounds but then lost interest. You could see this young dude, was nervous and new. All of the sudden he starts paying everyone on every hand regardless of whether the players total was higher than the dealers. 2 or 3 rounds, everyone is looking at each other but no one said anything. Then players started betting much bigger to take advantage. I colored up and left. I wanted no part of this. I suspected it would only take a couple more rounds before someone (maybe EITS) saw this, and who knows how they would handle it, whether they would make players pay back or not. I just wanted no part of it and left.

I like to win playing legally and fairly within the rules. That is what advantage play is to me.

[MaxPen]

Why on earth would any reasonable person think it is ok to hit a jackpot at a 25 cent level, and manipulate the machine to pay at $5 level level? .

Because the machine allows for it to be done with only using the buttons available to the player.

Your argument only holds water on the glitches where something has to be added or illegally accessed on the machine.

The DUB is a method of play made available by the manufacturer.