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Thread: Laughlin Pioneer Hustlers Convention - 2002

  1. #1
    Axel might give his take on the Pioneer Hustlers Convention of 2002. I won't be able to tell it all in one post.

    It was around the 1st of April, 2002 I was holed up in downtown Las Vegas. I walked in the Vegas Club and picked up a copy of Gaming Today. Great rag for gaming news. So I find a news item "PIONEER LAUGHLIN SET TO INSTALL ANCHOR GAMING DOUBLE TIME SYSTEM."

    I was familiar with Anchor Gaming's Lucky Coin Bonus System at the Mandalay Bay opening in 1998. It was highly exploitable. So now I have to go to Laughlin and see if there are any leaks in this double time system.

    So I get down to Laughlin and there is always plenty to do there, advantage slots, video poker, live poker. Plus I got a free ride in the hotels. My P.O. Box was at the Riverside and I got plenty of room and meal comp thru the mail. When there I rotated thru the casinos, a few days at a time in each, on a monthly basis. Always a new set of mail every month.

    So this double time system was supposed to be installed in early April. But it kept getting delayed. And more hustlers were piling into Laughlin thinking the same thing I was.

    Now, the problem in April is the Biker Rally in the last week of the month. In April it's getting hot and all the RV'ers clear out. Then the bikers pour in. All the rooms are sold out months in advance. Unless you don't mind paying out the ass. I always thought it was comical looking at the hotel rates for the last weekend in April.

    Friday Night = $750
    Saturday Night = $750
    Sunday Night = $20

    Of course it's much cheaper booking well in advance.

    Ali showed up from Riudoso, New Mexico. He and his wife were working blackjack promotions there. The casino there, Inn of the Mountain Gods, at one time had a dollar multi-game video poker progressive, 1% meter, with the best game being Full Pay Deuces Wild. Ali got Randy M. involved and they worked it for over a year. No one in the country but them knew it was there. When that play dried up Randy left but Ali stayed because of the blackjack promotions.

    So now it's getting into late April, almost Biker Rally time. I'm worred about hotel space. My driving privileges were still revoked at that time so I couldn't drive back and forth from any place.

    Next post....
    Maxpen.Is.The.Forum.Bitch

  2. #2
    So now it's a few days before the rally. Two things happened.

    They started installing the double time system.

    And Ali's wife got in some kind of legal trouble in Riudoso. Ali had to leave. Ali's wife was from Mississippi. I think she was a Tunica hustler. Ali met her and brought her west. They married in Laughlin. I always thought it was funny. A Pakistani man married to a Mississippi redneck girl. But in spirit Ali was more American than we are.

    Before Ali was holed up in Riudoso he was holed up at the Cliff Castle Casino in Camp Verde, Arizona. A mutual friend of both Ali and I, Jerry A., asked me what I thought Ali was doing at Cliff Castle. I said he probably had a good spot for advantage slots. Jerry had been a long time regular on the flush attack bank at the Riverside. That's where I met him. But his welcome was wearing out. No matter who you were sooner or later you would draw heat on that bank.

    Jerry asked me to take a trip with him to Camp Verde, point out the exploitable games, and teach him the strategies. So we went to Camp Verde. The place was loaded with advantage slots.

    Of course, Ali and his wife were there. His wife was a much more disciplined hustler than he was. He was on a game that called for a one coin bet after a ploppie left it in a positive state. And you quit when you collect the bonus.

    Ali's wife was watching intently over his shoulder. Ali would occasionally glance back at her. Then she left to make a lap around the other advantage slots. When she was out of sight Ali hit the max coin button and started playing like a bat out of hell.

    The wife took a circuitous route behind the machines then came straight up behind Ali and looked over his shoulder. When she seen what he was doing she slapped the dog hell out of him.

    It was obvious why she kept a close eye on him.

    We went back to Laughlin but a few days later Jerry took off for Camp Verde....
    Maxpen.Is.The.Forum.Bitch

  3. #3
    From what I read in another thread it looks llike Axel has forgotten that he was in Laughlin at the Pioneer in May 2002, just after the biker shootout.

    I have some driving to do but will post on this story again tonight.
    Maxpen.Is.The.Forum.Bitch

  4. #4
    Thanks Mick, I always enjoy reading your stories like this.

    Safe travels!

  5. #5
    So the slot techs finally show up to put the double time system in on the Tuesday before the weekend of the Laughlin River Run. They were working on about 20 machines which included a five machine bank of quarter linked 9/7 Double Bonus 5-way progressive, the meters running .2% each on the RF, SF, 4A, Small Quads, Generic Quads. It was a breakeven game to begin with. But they didn't get anything in working order that day.

    So the next day they are getting ready to turn the thing on. We are asking questions. They tell us the machines will occasionally going into double time mode for one minute where some payouts will pay double. They also tell us that we have to keep the machines qualified to be eligible for the double time. They had installed new card readers with red and green lights on them. When the light was green you were qualified. If it was red you weren't qualified.

    So just before they turn the thing on they hung a sign over the 9/7 bank that said "25 to 50 coin payouts will pay double in double time mode." That meant the Straight, Flush and Full House would pay double. And that meant the game would be at 130% in double time mode.

    So they finally turn everything on and we sit down. When you played a hand the border of the card reader would turn green. Once it was green if you didn't play a hand for 11 seconds it would turn red.

    Now it's a 5 coin single line game. But who said we had to bet 5 coins to turn that light green. A quick and easy check betting just 1 coin showed the light would turn green with just a 1 coin bet.

    So that was the trick we thought. Play 1 coin to stay qualified then go to 5 coins in double time mode. The double times were coming fast. Unbeknownst to us they had the DT set up where the double times came fast so they could test the system. While not knowing that we were all raking in the cash. They would slow it down later.

    The slot techs went to work linking up another section of machines. About 20 machines per section which meant there would be several different sections of machines linked together with their own DT systems.

    I had a problem because I couldn't get a room for Thursday night. I had to bail up to Las Vegas on Thursday and come back Sunday. I hated to leave it but after observing the time the slot techs took to get the first section up and running I wouldn't miss out on a whole lot.

    So I take the bus up to Vegas and check into the Golden Gate for 3 nights. I always had the same routine in downtown Vegas. Up every morning for a cup of coffee and a lap around the advantage slots in the Vegas Club, California Club, Nugget, Fremont and 4 Queens. Then I would check out the poker action at the Horseshoe. By then the 10/20 didn't go everyday but most days. They also had a loose as hell 4/8 Omaha High game everyday. A 4/8 Omaha 8 game too. Along with 4/8 Holdem.

    This is not well known but the Horseshoe had the shittiest slow ass dealers in Las Vegas. That is, until the house finally quit splitting the tips among the dealers. It was like a goddam contest to see who was the slowest dealer. It used to drive me nuts.

    In the Omaha 8 game besides the bad dealers there was also the 70 year old geezers that argued and yelled at each other all day. The joke was you had to be 70 years old to act like a kid in the Horseshoe Poker Room.

    The dealing markedly improved when each dealer got to keep his own tips.

    So I was up Sunday morning getting cleaned up to take the bus back down to Laughlin. I had the TV on and was shaving when from the TV I heard BIKER SHOOTOUT IN LAUGHLIN !! HELL'S ANGELS!!! MONGELS!!! ALL ROADS CLOSED!!!

    Fuck me running. Those bikers were fucking with my money. I had to sit out until Wednesday before the bus would run back to Laughlin....
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 06-19-2022 at 07:51 PM.
    Maxpen.Is.The.Forum.Bitch

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    From what I read in another thread it looks llike Axel has forgotten that he was in Laughlin at the Pioneer in May 2002, just after the biker shootout.

    I have some driving to do but will post on this story again tonight.
    Yeah, I have been there so many times I couldn't pinpoint the exact timeframe I was or wasn't there. I just know what plays were going on when I was there and the approximate years they took place.

    Is Jerry the older guy with a mustache and wife who both liked poker?

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    From what I read in another thread it looks llike Axel has forgotten that he was in Laughlin at the Pioneer in May 2002, just after the biker shootout.

    I have some driving to do but will post on this story again tonight.
    Yeah, I have been there so many times I couldn't pinpoint the exact timeframe I was or wasn't there. I just know what plays were going on when I was there and the approximate years they took place.

    Is Jerry the older guy with a mustache and wife who both liked poker?
    Jerry was divorced. He had a mustache but it was silver along with his hair except he was bald on top. He was an old poker dealer, floorman and grifter.

    He taught me how to look out for "location" in a holdem game. That's where the dealer flashes cards headed to the muck to his agent, sitting on the dealer's left if the dealer is right handed. Those cards would come on the next flop.

    Jerry also told me stories about him and a well known poker player traveling around the mountain states grifting the gambling games. This was 20 years ago when he was telling me these stories. So the stories go back to the 70's and 80's. This poker player had a best seller poker book.

    Don't know if it's still the same today but they used to have poker and social blackjack in the bars in Oregon where they dealt for themselves. No center dealing. Advetising was not allowed for these games so people from out of state didn't know about them. That is, except Jerry and this poker player.

    Jerry told me about this one bar they played social blackjack. The only way the house could make money was by selling a deck of cards to the table every half hour. Jerry had to get next to this very homely barmaid. He said she was uglier than a mud fence. But he started screwing her.

    So he was in the bar at closing time helping her by stacking the stools and whatever. They switched out an entire case of playing cards with marked cards. Then of course, they crushed the blackjack game.

    They worked their way around Montana in the high stakes poker games with the ranchers. They would go into a town separately and appear to not know each other. They were dealing seconds to each other.

    Jerry said the poker player was a bad seconds dealer. And the last time he seen the guy he had gone to the bathroom in this one bar and when he came out they had the poker player up against the wall. He went back to the bathroom, climbed out a window and hauled ass out of town.
    Maxpen.Is.The.Forum.Bitch

  8. #8
    Cool story Mickey, sounds like your not finished with it yet, but a few questions:

    So when double time is off, you would bet 1 credit and Play the least number of hands possible?

    When double time is on, play max credits and as fast as you can during the 1 minute period?

    I know you said edge was 130% when DT was on. What did you figure your overall average edge was?

    How long did the DT game last in that casino as well as others?

  9. #9
    Thanks for posting Mickey; the type of situations people will but themselves in if the money's good enough is pretty amazing. Successful cheaters are extremely clever and they damn well better be.

  10. #10

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by PositiveVariance View Post
    You consider this cheating?
    He's not referring to the DT exploit.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by PositiveVariance View Post
    Cool story Mickey, sounds like your not finished with it yet, but a few questions:

    So when double time is off, you would bet 1 credit and Play the least number of hands possible?

    When double time is on, play max credits and as fast as you can during the 1 minute period?

    I know you said edge was 130% when DT was on. What did you figure your overall average edge was?

    How long did the DT game last in that casino as well as others?
    The hourly rate depended on how fast the double times were coming. We were just learning this system. Basically flying by the seat of our pants and dead reckoning how it worked. We seen clues and thought about them. We traded information on what we thought was going on.

    When they first put a system up the double times came fast because they were trouble shooting any problems that arose. But once they thought everything was okay they would tweak the system down.

    We had to figure out when to play. If you played in the dead of night you weren't going to get any double times. We figured that was because there were no ploppies playing.

    We figured there was a money pool that was based on the total action the machines were getting. That a percentage of the handle was going into the pool.

    No ploppies playing meant no double times. A lot of ploppies playing meant lots of double times.

    Then, if a lot of money was payed out in a double time the next double time would be slow to come even with a lot of ploppies playing. That was to let the money pool build up again, is what we thought.

    So the hourly rate could be nothing or in the hundreds of dollars an hour.

    On the 9/7 bank betting one coin every ten seconds I figured the wager to be $90 an hour with a 3% drop (because of getting 250 for 1 on the royal), or a little less than $3 an hour to keep a machine qualified.The cost was actually a little less because of the minutes the double time took up.

    While I was in Vegas everyone left the 9/7 play and moved on to better things. But I thought the best way to play the thing was team play it betting max coins to create more double times. It was a breakeven game between double times playing max coins. But I kept my mouth shut about it because I never liked team play. To much bullshit going on and I don't like commitments.
    Maxpen.Is.The.Forum.Bitch

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by smurgerburger View Post
    Originally Posted by PositiveVariance View Post
    You consider this cheating?
    He's not referring to the DT exploit.
    Correct. I was referring to Jerry.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by PositiveVariance View Post
    Cool story Mickey, sounds like your not finished with it yet, but a few questions:

    So when double time is off, you would bet 1 credit and Play the least number of hands possible?

    When double time is on, play max credits and as fast as you can during the 1 minute period?

    I know you said edge was 130% when DT was on. What did you figure your overall average edge was?

    How long did the DT game last in that casino as well as others?
    The hourly rate depended on how fast the double times were coming. We were just learning this system. Basically flying by the seat of our pants and dead reckoning how it worked. We seen clues and thought about them. We traded information on what we thought was going on.

    When they first put a system up the double times came fast because they were trouble shooting any problems that arose. But once they thought everything was okay they would tweak the system down.

    We had to figure out when to play. If you played in the dead of night you weren't going to get any double times. We figured that was because there were no ploppies playing.

    We figured there was a money pool that was based on the total action the machines were getting. That a percentage of the handle was going into the pool.

    No ploppies playing meant no double times. A lot of ploppies playing meant lots of double times.

    Then, if a lot of money was payed out in a double time the next double time would be slow to come even with a lot of ploppies playing. That was to let the money pool build up again, is what we thought.

    So the hourly rate could be nothing or in the hundreds of dollars an hour.

    On the 9/7 bank betting one coin every ten seconds I figured the wager to be $90 an hour with a 3% drop (because of getting 250 for 1 on the royal), or a little less than $3 an hour to keep a machine qualified.The cost was actually a little less because of the minutes the double time took up.

    While I was in Vegas everyone left the 9/7 play and moved on to better things. But I thought the best way to play the thing was team play it betting max coins to create more double times. It was a breakeven game between double times playing max coins. But I kept my mouth shut about it because I never liked team play. To much bullshit going on and I don't like commitments.

    Thanks for the info!

    So how long before they pulled the Double Time system?

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by PositiveVariance View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by PositiveVariance View Post
    Cool story Mickey, sounds like your not finished with it yet, but a few questions:

    So when double time is off, you would bet 1 credit and Play the least number of hands possible?

    When double time is on, play max credits and as fast as you can during the 1 minute period?

    I know you said edge was 130% when DT was on. What did you figure your overall average edge was?

    How long did the DT game last in that casino as well as others?
    The hourly rate depended on how fast the double times were coming. We were just learning this system. Basically flying by the seat of our pants and dead reckoning how it worked. We seen clues and thought about them. We traded information on what we thought was going on.

    When they first put a system up the double times came fast because they were trouble shooting any problems that arose. But once they thought everything was okay they would tweak the system down.

    We had to figure out when to play. If you played in the dead of night you weren't going to get any double times. We figured that was because there were no ploppies playing.

    We figured there was a money pool that was based on the total action the machines were getting. That a percentage of the handle was going into the pool.

    No ploppies playing meant no double times. A lot of ploppies playing meant lots of double times.

    Then, if a lot of money was payed out in a double time the next double time would be slow to come even with a lot of ploppies playing. That was to let the money pool build up again, is what we thought.

    So the hourly rate could be nothing or in the hundreds of dollars an hour.

    On the 9/7 bank betting one coin every ten seconds I figured the wager to be $90 an hour with a 3% drop (because of getting 250 for 1 on the royal), or a little less than $3 an hour to keep a machine qualified.The cost was actually a little less because of the minutes the double time took up.

    While I was in Vegas everyone left the 9/7 play and moved on to better things. But I thought the best way to play the thing was team play it betting max coins to create more double times. It was a breakeven game between double times playing max coins. But I kept my mouth shut about it because I never liked team play. To much bullshit going on and I don't like commitments.

    Thanks for the info!

    So how long before they pulled the Double Time system?
    They didn't pull it. They kept tweaking it down to where it wasn't worth my time anymore. That and some heat came down.
    Maxpen.Is.The.Forum.Bitch

  16. #16
    Randy McKay was at the Pioneer/Laughlin in April/May, 2002. Randy is from Finley, North Dakota. He came to Nevada in the 90's and dealt blackjack/craps. But by 1997 he was a full time gambler.

    These days he mostly bets sports and appears on Follow The Money radio show occasionally.

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1239556525774929920

    Randy stopped in to visit me in Montana a couple of years ago.
    Maxpen.Is.The.Forum.Bitch

  17. #17
    So the Wednesday after the biker rally I got back down to Laughlin and checked into the Pioneer. The Pioneer was one of the key places on the River that I worked hotel comp. The comp meter ran .3333%. It didn't matter if it was midweek, weekend, or holidays, you payed 15 comp dollars per room night. And you had to have a comp balance of $100 after you payed for the room.

    It took a 30K wager to get to $100 comp dollars. Then you got a room comp for every $4500 coin in. I usually kept my balance between $300 and $400. There was plenty of good stuff to play, Flush Attack, Full Pay Deuces, a dollar 8/5 Double Double Jackpot Bingo Card, a linked 8 coin dollar 9/6 Jacks with meters on the 4K, SF, RF in the bartops in the River Bar. The River Bar also had a couple of stand alone Flush Attacks and a Maxx.

    I can't remember if it was a $500 or $1000 wager that you got a two-day getaway hotel package at the Pioneer every month. I would go in on the two day package then use my comp to keep extending. I would spend 7 or 8 days at at time every month for free there.

    I had similar room comp at the other casinos on the River. So I got a total free ride for months at a time.
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 06-21-2022 at 06:21 AM.
    Maxpen.Is.The.Forum.Bitch

  18. #18
    I was early for check-in so I left my rolling luggage at the desk and walked into the casino. There were 3 hustlers I knew well, Randy, Alan and Frank (Frank also used the alias of Mickey. Why? I don't know). They were no longer on the 9/7 Prog. They were on the dollar bartops at the main bar doing the one coin to five coin thing. So I jumped in with them.

    The sign said 40 to 250 coin payouts were doubled. So they had changed the parameters from Straight/Flush/Full House to Full House/4 of a K/Straight Flush. That's a 116% game.

    The 9/7 cost about $3 an hour to keep qualified and each double time was worth about $6. The 9/6 dollars cost $11 an hour to keep qualified but was worth $16 per double time. I calculated this at 20 hands per minute in the double time.

    How many double times per hour depended on how many ploppies were playing. There were machines out on the floor that were linked to the bartops.

    So we were doing that about 12 hours per day. The Pioneer barstools were made of oak with no cushions. We all got sore tailbones from those damn oak stools.

    I would occasionally take a walk around the Piggy Bank machines and the stand alone Flush Attacks and Maxx up in the River Bar.
    Maxpen.Is.The.Forum.Bitch

  19. #19
    A married hustler couple showed up at the Pioneer. Their initials are J. and L. Axel knows them. They were known for not playing anything unless it's the stone cold nuts. Thin edge stuff wasn't their bag. He was always trying to get me talking. Trying to be sly about it. Looking to pick up any advantage play information he could. Any information he gave up wasn't worth a hill of beans.

    As I said earlier I would sometimes cup my machine on the main bar and make a lap thru the River Bar to see if there was a play on the stand alone flush attacks or the maxx. I seen J. and L. on an upright bank of Game Kings. So I started making more regular laps to the River Bar.

    Sometimes they were playing video poker and sometimes they were playing 4-Card Keno. I didn't stand there and watch as I didn't want to be rude. And I didn't like horning in on someone else's play.

    He stopped by to talk to me at the main bar. Doing his usual trying to be sly in pumping me for information. When the conversation was over he said "Well, I'm gonna go back to my keno."

    Yeah, right. Like he's a keno junkie? That's what he wanted me to believe. Why do people try to pull that kind of shit? Do they think everyone is stupid or what?

    It went on for a couple of days. Then one day they didn't show up, and they wound up never coming back. I thought it was time to go see what they were doing on that Game King bank....
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 06-22-2022 at 04:00 PM.
    Maxpen.Is.The.Forum.Bitch

  20. #20
    So I go back and take a look at the quarter Game Kings. The sign said payouts between 50 and 250 coins pays double. The GK's were against a wall but were linked to machines out on the floor.

    For video poker they had 9/6 Jacks, Double Bonus, Double Double Bonus, etc. And there was a 4-Card Keno game. No Blackjack. The only thing that qualified for the double pay on video poker was the Four of a Kinds and the Straight Flush. And some of the Four of a Kinds on Double and Double Double didn't qualify. 9/6 Jacks would be the best game to play The max bet was $1.25. There were no Full Houses that payed 50 coins.

    Why in the hell were they playing video poker? 9/6 would be the best play but just a $25 wager in the double time with a 6% edge meant it was worth only about $2 per double time....and you had to keep the machine qualified. So that's not what they were doing.

    I was stumped on the video poker so I moved on to the 4-Card Keno.

    It was $1 max bet per card. I go thru the payscale and quickly see that a 2-Spot payed 60 coins. That would fit in the 50-250 parameters.

    I quickly did the math on the 2-Spot. Keno math is easy once you get the hang out of it. The 2-Spot math is easy to do on a pocket calculator.

    80X79/2X1 = 3160 possible two spots on the card.

    20X19/2X1 = 190 combinations where the 2-Spot hits.

    3160/190 means the frequency of the 2-Spot is 16.63158

    I set all 4 cards up with 2-Spots. Different numbers on every card. Then tested it to see how many games per minute. It was 10 games per minute. So that would be 10 X 4 cards at $1 per card = a wager of $40.

    The payback of the 2-Spot is pretty simple

    15/16.63158 = 90.19%. So in double time it would be 180.38%

    With an 80.38% edge the double time would be worth:

    $40 X .8038% = $32.15

    That was a much higher yield than the video poker I had been working.

    Then it was time to test keeping the machine qualified. I hit the 1-coin button. It cleared the other three cards of numbers and everything and left just the 1 coin bet on one card. Houston we have a problem.

    I set the cards up again and it took to long. The double time would be over by the time I got the cards set up again.

    Once I got the cards set up and hit the max bet button again I seen that the only way to keep the game set up and qualified was I had to play one coin on each card. It would be a $600 wager per hour with a 10% drop to keep the game qualified for the double times. No way, Jose.

    So I was sitting there thinking, thinking, thinking.....

    How in the hell?

    What in the hell were they doing?

    And they were playing video poker too?

    What the hell is the video poker for?

    All of a sudden it dawned on me. They must have been using the video poker to keep the machine qualified.

    I moved the game over to 9/6 Jacks played a hand then quickly hit the button to return to the game selection screen then hit the 4-Card Keno sensor. When the Keno game came up I quickly hit the max bet button.

    Yep, that was it. That's what they were doing.

    I timed it to see how much time was lost switching games. I could get out only 8 games in double time instead of 10. That was a little cut in pay, but not bad, about $25 per double time.

    The cost to stay qualified betting one coin was negligible on the 9/6, less than $5 an hour.

    So I was a happy camper at that point. I went into the gift shop and bought a hat. I got on the machine farthest away from the aisle. If I got made sitting on this bank the other hustlers would quickly pile in.

    Other hustlers on the bank meant the money pool would get sucked down....
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 06-23-2022 at 06:13 AM.
    Maxpen.Is.The.Forum.Bitch

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