Progressive Free Games AKA the 15's

[MisterV]

By exposing you I mean I point out your lies and bullshit.

I don't give a fuck about you in real life, your identity means zilch to me.

You come onto these boards saying "look at me, look at me" and talk smack to and about everybody.

I merely call bullshit.

I'm tiring of this back and forth with you, sleaze: unless you come up with some new material I've little more to say to and about you as I've pretty much covered all the bases.

[Treeshade]

By exposing you I mean I point out your lies and bullshit.

I don't give a fuck about you in real life, your identity means zilch to me.

You come onto these boards saying "look at me, look at me" and talk smack to and about everybody.

I merely call bullshit.

I'm tiring of this back and forth with you, sleaze: unless you come up with some new material I've little more to say to and about you as I've pretty much covered all the bases.

Within hours I had your real name and basically everything I wanted to know about you at my fingertips because I guess you have did this shit to so many people that they hate your guts.

Thats actually scary not me defending myself against unprovoked attacks. You started it champ not me. That’s the facts

I didn’t know you were terminal buddy so I give you a pass

Go get some sleep

[Treeshade]

By exposing you I mean I point out your lies and bullshit.

I don't give a fuck about you in real life, your identity means zilch to me.

You come onto these boards saying "look at me, look at me" and talk smack to and about everybody.

I merely call bullshit.

I'm tiring of this back and forth with you, sleaze: unless you come up with some new material I've little more to say to and about you as I've pretty much covered all the bases.

Within hours I had your real name and basically everything I wanted to know about you at my fingertips because I guess you have did this shit to so many people that they hate your guts.

That’s actually scary!!! not me defending myself against unprovoked attacks. You started it champ not me. That’s the facts

I didn’t know you were terminal buddy so I give you a pass

Go get some sleep

[Treeshade]

By exposing you I mean I point out your lies and bullshit.

I don't give a fuck about you in real life, your identity means zilch to me.

You come onto these boards saying "look at me, look at me" and talk smack to and about everybody.

I merely call bullshit.

I'm tiring of this back and forth with you, sleaze: unless you come up with some new material I've little more to say to and about you as I've pretty much covered all the bases.

For the record I talked shit on Kew AIQ and you. All three of you came at me first. Don’t start shit with people that are willing to Ruin your life to get even. Just be nice instead. I can clearly prove everything I’m sayin, it’s not my fault you don’t want confirmation

[tableplay]

Hustlers put it back in -EV and mostly hit the games as soon as they approach positive. That doesn't prevent the locals from playing on the machine or anything like that. Nor do I think the casino would really see it in this light.

Yes it does prevent the locals from playing the machines. The reason is because when a machine is stripped clean, it is lower than its overall/average RTP (the overall RTP is the average of all states of the machine - vulturable,neutral, and unvulturable). For example an overall 87% machine in its stripped down state might have an RTP of 70%. Then the locals get creamed (even worse than at 87%) and it doesn't get played as often by them. Next thing you know, idle hexbreakers, idle Regal Ritches, etc.

[PositiveVariance]

Hustlers put it back in -EV and mostly hit the games as soon as they approach positive. That doesn't prevent the locals from playing on the machine or anything like that. Nor do I think the casino would really see it in this light.

Yes it does prevent the locals from playing the machines. The reason is because when a machine is stripped clean, it is lower than its overall/average RTP (the overall RTP is the average of all states of the machine - vulturable,neutral, and unvulturable). For example an overall 87% machine in its stripped down state might have an RTP of 70%. Then the locals get creamed (even worse than at 87%) and it doesn't get played as often by them. Next thing you know, idle hexbreakers, idle Regal Ritches, etc.

They are called ploppies for a reason. They “PLOP” down at their favorite machine.

Very few ploppies understand -EV, neutral, +EV states of the machines. They just know overall the casino will take their money. They hope to get “lucky” from time to time. They go to the machine either because they are passing by and the machine is free or it is a machine they enjoying playing and will seek it out.

Let’s say it is in a heavily -EV state of 70% RTP and the ploppy gets creamed. The machine takes their $200 and with typically ploppy thinking, they say “well it’s just not My Day”. The following Week they come back and play that same machine and win $200. This time it is “Their day” as they would put it.

If Ploppies understood the various states of “variable state machines”, they likely wouldn’t be in there gambling all this -EV stuff since they would realize just how bad it is for them.

On the argument for AP’s taking the machines when they are in an +EV state (assuming the AP isn’t causing problems in the casino) would be that it is OVERALL lowing the RTP for the poppies. It could lower their actual return from 87% to 83%. Some would argue “well the casino pays out the same amount either way”, yes this is true but the casino wants to pay the regular ploppy customers not AP’s.

Blackjack counters will know this is similar to when a casino shuffles up when a card counter increases his bet in a high count. That “high count” is apart of the overall house edge in the game. By shuffling in advantageous situations, the house edge is therefore increased.

[accountinquestion]

My guess is a machine paying at 70% will be noticed by quite a few. You literally lose your money 2x as fast at 85%. This should be fairly noticeable by a lot of ploppies. There is a mixture of both things happening. The only real point I was making is that I'm not sure many casino people realize how this works together.

My guess is the people kicked out over H3s were found by card abuse and then they started looking into H3s. They don't know whats happening but they watch a few machines and start picking off those displaying the behaviors of APs.

[tableplay]

The following Week they come back and play that same machine and win $200. This time it is “Their day” as they would put it.

Who are the people, that during the lifetime of the machine on the floor, stop populating the machine, causing the hustler to observe an empty machine with no plays on it for several hours on end each "day", when previously, they did not observe an idle machine for several hours on end each "day" (and also observed there being plays on it at this time period of non-idleness that no longer exists) ? It is this group of people that I am referring to, rather than the people that come back each week and get absolutely bludgeoned that you refer to in your post.

[PositiveVariance]

The following Week they come back and play that same machine and win $200. This time it is “Their day” as they would put it.

Who are the people, that during the lifetime of the machine on the floor, stop populating the machine, causing the hustler to observe an empty machine with no plays on it for several hours on end each "day", when previously, they did not observe an idle machine for several hours on end each "day" (and also observed there being plays on it at this time period of non-idleness that no longer exists) ? It is this group of people that I am referring to, rather than the people that come back each week and get absolutely bludgeoned that you refer to in your post.

I guess I am confused.
Are you referring to “different levels of Ploppies”?
Are you saying that a certain type of Ploppy will no longer play the machine if he feels he is getting 70% vs 85% RTP? (I’m not staying I disagree with this, just trying to understand your point)

[tableplay]

The following Week they come back and play that same machine and win $200. This time it is “Their day” as they would put it.

Who are the people, that during the lifetime of the machine on the floor, stop populating the machine, causing the hustler to observe an empty machine with no plays on it for several hours on end each "day", when previously, they did not observe an idle machine for several hours on end each "day" (and also observed there being plays on it at this time period of non-idleness that no longer exists) ? It is this group of people that I am referring to, rather than the people that come back each week and get absolutely bludgeoned that you refer to in your post.

I guess I am confused.
Are you referring to “different levels of Ploppies”?
Are you saying that a certain type of Ploppy will no longer play the machine if he feels he is getting 70% vs 85% RTP? (I’m not staying I disagree with this, just trying to understand your point)

There is a group of human beings that represent a large enough population such that a given vulturable machine gets a lot of action for several hours of the day from this group of people with little idle time on that machine as a result. And then, not only that, but this same group of people generates plays that are taken down by hustlers on this machine. Finally, this same group of individuals stops playing the machine or plays it much less, such that hustlers observe the machine to have a lot of idle time. The group of people that you refer to, which I will call lemmings for lack of a better term, do not exist in such quantities as to create a hustler observation of the machine not being idle. The group of people I am referring to are often called regulars or "regs". Obviously you may call the groups we are referring to whatever you wish to. For example Lemmings for the group you refer to and Regulars or "Regs" for the group I am referring to. Generally Lemmings include Darwin Award winners and shiny object superfans.

[mickeycrimm]

Progressive Free Games by IGT is a feature attached to a couple of traditional three reel slot machines.

Not much to know about this game. I just play when I catch the 2X on 13. You'll never get a play on the 5X or 10X. It take gillions of spins to flip those meters. You'll hit them in the screen before they get to the top.The number on the upper right is the total of the 2X, 5X and 10X meters. In this case, 23.

Playing the 2X on 13 I'm gonna take about a 35% drop on 35 to 68 spins. Average is about 50 spins. The 2X flips every 34 spins on the ones I play. I will recoup most or all of it back when 2X hits 15.

Meanwhile I have a chance to catch the 5X or 10X meters or catch the 23. In the example that 23 will give you 12 spins at 2X, 6 spins at 5X, and 5 spins at 10X.

By playing the 2X at 13 I'm basically freerolling to hit the 5X, 10X, and 23.

Playing a 2X on 12 is marginal.

[jbjb]

What do you all think about these 15's with the wheel? The counts to increase the numbers are much higher.

[DGenBen]

What do you all think about these 15's with the wheel? The counts to increase the numbers are much higher.

Personally I haven’t played them but I’ve heard from others that they are shit.

[tableplay]

What do you all think about these 15's with the wheel? The counts to increase the numbers are much higher.

Within the 85% RTP context: the 2x free games actually have a smaller increment cycle versus the non-progressive meter variant: about 70 games (rather than 110). 5x, around 500 games (rather than 330), and 10x, around 1000 (rather than 850). The 2x2x2x progressive moves a penny per 60c coin-in. So you can use the 2x2x2x progressive as your spin counter (a penny 2x2x2x meter increment per spin at 60c cost per spin). Note the 2x2x2x progressive value while a civilian is playing or on an empty game that has a 5x and/or 10x 14. Come back later and if the 5x/10x 14 is still present, take note of the 2x2x2x progressive value again to get the number of spins, so that you know at least that many spins have been taken off (plus the unknown number of spins before you came around the 1st time) in order to move from 14 to 15 (obviously there will be the somewhat rare situation where the 2x2x2x comes off and you lose the count, so you could use the 3x3x3x as a backup - just note the cost to move that one a penny). Caveat, the number of spins to increment the 2x,5x, and 10x banks is approximate. I would suggest (for those that think they should be written off) not writing these off as unvulturable despite hearsay . . .

[DGenBen]

What do you all think about these 15's with the wheel? The counts to increase the numbers are much higher.

I would suggest (for those that think they should be written off) not writing these off as unvulturable despite hearsay . . .

Excellent point!

Thinking about it now, I have written other stuff off too early based on what I heard.

[tableplay]

What do you all think about these 15's with the wheel? The counts to increase the numbers are much higher.

I would suggest (for those that think they should be written off) not writing these off as unvulturable despite hearsay . . .

Excellent point!

Thinking about it now, I have written other stuff off too early based on what I heard.

Thanks Ben. In any event, you didn't say you were going to write it off - just that you heard that others have. Since the number of spins to increment a free games bank by one is deterministic, the game is vulturable as you know. What is required is the total number of spins required to increment each of the 2x,5x, and 10x free games banks by one on the progressive jackpot meter variant, along with an accurate count of how many spins a 5x or 10x bank with 14 games on it (and a 2x with 13 games on it since the interval is so short - 70 spins or so) has accumulated on its journey to 15 free games.

[mickeycrimm]

What do you all think about these 15's with the wheel? The counts to increase the numbers are much higher.

Personally I haven’t played them but I’ve heard from others that they are shit.

Haven't played this one yet. Seen it in just one casino so far.

[mickeycrimm]

Progressive Free Games by IGT is a feature attached to a couple of traditional three reel slot machines.

Not much to know about this game. I just play when I catch the 2X on 13. You'll never get a play on the 5X or 10X. It take gillions of spins to flip those meters. You'll hit them in the screen before they get to the top.The number on the upper right is the total of the 2X, 5X and 10X meters. In this case, 23.

Playing the 2X on 13 I'm gonna take about a 35% drop on 35 to 68 spins. Average is about 50 spins. The 2X flips every 34 spins on the ones I play. I will recoup most or all of it back when 2X hits 15.

Meanwhile I have a chance to catch the 5X or 10X meters or catch the 23. In the example that 23 will give you 12 spins at 2X, 6 spins at 5X, and 5 spins at 10X.

By playing the 2X at 13 I'm basically freerolling to hit the 5X, 10X, and 23.

Playing a 2X on 12 is marginal.

Bump. About the BONANZA version. Evidently there are different configurations with different paybacks to this game just like the regular 15's. I just encountered a machine where it takes 51 spins to flip the 2X meter. The one I have in the pic here takes only 34 spins to flip the 2X meter.

The 34 spinner would be a better payback than the 51 spinner. So these new games might be playable in some casinos but not others.

[jbjb]

What do you all think about these 15's with the wheel? The counts to increase the numbers are much higher.

Within the 85% RTP context: the 2x free games actually have a smaller increment cycle versus the non-progressive meter variant: about 70 games (rather than 110). 5x, around 500 games (rather than 330), and 10x, around 1000 (rather than 850). The 2x2x2x progressive moves a penny per 60c coin-in. So you can use the 2x2x2x progressive as your spin counter (a penny 2x2x2x meter increment per spin at 60c cost per spin). Note the 2x2x2x progressive value while a civilian is playing or on an empty game that has a 5x and/or 10x 14. Come back later and if the 5x/10x 14 is still present, take note of the 2x2x2x progressive value again to get the number of spins, so that you know at least that many spins have been taken off (plus the unknown number of spins before you came around the 1st time) in order to move from 14 to 15 (obviously there will be the somewhat rare situation where the 2x2x2x comes off and you lose the count, so you could use the 3x3x3x as a backup - just note the cost to move that one a penny). Caveat, the number of spins to increment the 2x,5x, and 10x banks is approximate. I would suggest (for those that think they should be written off) not writing these off as unvulturable despite hearsay . . .

The one we play, the progressives for the 3x, 3x, 3x and 2x, 2x, 2x are already maxed out. We know the count number for each of the 2x, 5x, and 10x meters. You definitely don't just want to jump on a blind 14 and not know where the count is. Taking a 10x, 14 that just flipped from 13 will be a disaster. At least on the one we have.

[tableplay]

You definitely don't just want to jump on a blind 14 and not know where the count is. Taking a 10x, 14 that just flipped from 13 will be a disaster.

That's right. That's why I use the progressives to get a count of how deep in the 14 the 2x,5x, or 10x is as the case may be. For unchanging progressives, the non-14 2x,5x, or 10x free games movement can be used to get a fix on how deep the 14 games bank is.