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Thread: Slot AP Data Collection

  1. #1
    I've been enjoying going through some of the slot AP posts where they break down the math of figuring out plays for some machines. My question is how are you guys collecting this data? I would like to start data basing my plays, but I have no clue how you guys are going about getting information on individual spins.

  2. #2
    I do my own counting and use a pocket notebook. First, I have to think up what the important stats are. I dont want to spend any time on useless stats.

    For starters, on these slots that are variable state you want to know what the RTP is in the main game. The bonus round, whether its free spins or whatever is it's own set of stats.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  3. #3
    Wow, that's some serious dedication to your craft. I initially posted the question because I was reading through the buffalo diamond thread and assumed the amount of detail you had in your database was too much to be hand collected without severely cutting into your hourly rate so there must be some other method you guys are using. I'll start with designing a couple database tables for games I want to collect data on and see if I can come up with a way to streamline the collection. I appreciate the response!

  4. #4
    I don't collect stats as heavy as I used to. I'm lazy in my old age. It just ain't that important to me anymore to zero in to the 7th decimal. I just ballpark them these days. A coupla games I've been working on lately is Wolf Run Eclipse and Life of Luxury.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  5. #5
    Mickey, have there been any games over the years that you were fairly certain you were the only one APing it?
    Not so much a particular machine with a defect or malfunction on a local level that last until the casino fixes the issue, but more so a machine that was distributed on a national level - that you were fairly certain you were the only one who knew?
    Or even a machine you believe you were the first to beat it and it took a good amount of time for others to come in?

    Shoot, even if you have a story of a local malfunction you can share, I’m willing to listen.
    Last edited by PositiveVariance; 09-14-2022 at 06:47 PM.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by PositiveVariance View Post
    Mickey, have there been any games over the years that you were fairly certain you were the only one APing it?
    Not so much a particular machine with a defect or malfunction on a local level that last until the casino fixes the issue, but more so a machine that was distributed on a national level - that you were fairly certain you were the only one who knew?
    Or even a machine you believe you were the first to beat it and it took a good amount of time for others to come in?

    Shoot, even if you have a story of a local malfunction you can share, I’m willing to listen.
    I don't think there were or are any video games distributed nationally that I was the only one to exploit. At least nothing I can remember.

    There is one area, Montana specific, that I was the only one to exploit. That is, until I taught it to one other person. It's a very long list of games, mostly video keno, so I won't put them all up at once.

    I think I can safely say I'm the most knowledgeable and experience video keno AP ever in the United States. That because of a few factors. The games weren't distributed nationally, just Montana. I happened to pass thru Montana and found a few games. Then more games came out. I didn't leave Montana for a ten year stretch, 2007 to 2017.

    Years before I arrived in Montana I had found Scarne's Complete Guide to Gambling in a library somewhere. It was just a few pages with a clinic on keno math. I ran it to the copying machine then stuffed it away for later reference. There weren't any keno plays in Nevada in those days but I thought hell maybe someday. So when I got to Montana and seen some games I immediately pulled out that Scarne Keno Clinic and taught myself keno math.

    But I'll start with a video poker game.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    There is one area, Montana specific, that I was the only one to exploit. That is, until I taught it to one other person. It's a very long list of games, mostly video keno, so I won't put them all up at once.
    .
    Were these the machines in the bars that you discussed on (I believe it was your 1st) Gambling With An Edge episode?

  8. #8
    The Jackpot Aces video poker game carries just a 50 cent bet. The numbers in the upper left have meters that run at 1%. This is a One Joker game but the high paying hands are based on the Aces. You can't see it in the pic but the regular full house pays 9 for 1.

    When I first seen this payscale like 15 years ago I thought something was up. The reason why was because I had seen Jackpot Aces many many times before. Had even somewhat analyzed it and determined it was no good. But there is something different in this pic of the game than all the other times I had seen the game.

    The difference was the pay for the Natural Aces Full of Anything. Every time I seen that game before that meter was at $10. So now I'm looking at one where everything is the same except that Aces Full meter is resetting at $100.

    So I thought if the game was at about 97% when the meter starts at $10 then it has to be positive with the meter at $100.

    At the time I had Frugal Video Poker and Wolf Video Poker but this game couldn't be fully analyzed with any software because there was nothing on the market where you could isolate a Natural Full House that payed higher than the normal full houses.

    But Wolf was a big help. It cranked out a strategy chart that even included holding One Ace. All I had to do was cull out the hands that could turn into a Natural Aces Full, put the proper EV on them then move them up in the strategy chart.

    Wolf also gives you the frequencies of each playable hand dealt. So I just had to multiply that number by the chances of it turning into a Natural Aces Full.

    There are multiple routes to an Aces Full, Dealt Aces Full,3 Aces into Aces Full, 2 Aces into Aces Full, etc.

    Then I average out all the routes and it came up to making an Aces Full hand every 876 deals.

    The hand pays 200 for 1 plus has a 1% meter.

    200/876 meant the Aces Full was worth 22.8% of the payack. That meant the game was almost 114%.

    But just a 50 cent bet. Still, the game was worth $70 an hour at 1000 HPH.

    The Jackpot Aces game was on a few thousand machines in Montana. If they made the mistake on one machine they may have made it on others I thought. So I looked at that game everywhere I went. I found 23 machines total.

    I worked this game for several years. Then I taught it to one other person when I lost interest in it.

    You won't find any information on this game thru Shack or Dancer. They never heard of the game.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by PositiveVariance View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    There is one area, Montana specific, that I was the only one to exploit. That is, until I taught it to one other person. It's a very long list of games, mostly video keno, so I won't put them all up at once.
    .
    Were these the machines in the bars that you discussed on (I believe it was your 1st) Gambling With An Edge episode?
    Yep, It was in the Montana bars.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  10. #10
    Thanks for sharing Mickey.
    I love these kind of stories
    I wish others would share stories on dead plays. Obviously I understand why they wouldn’t want to.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    The Jackpot Aces video poker game carries just a 50 cent bet. The numbers in the upper left have meters that run at 1%. This is a One Joker game but the high paying hands are based on the Aces. You can't see it in the pic but the regular full house pays 9 for 1.

    When I first seen this payscale like 15 years ago I thought something was up. The reason why was because I had seen Jackpot Aces many many times before. Had even somewhat analyzed it and determined it was no good. But there is something different in this pic of the game than all the other times I had seen the game.

    The difference was the pay for the Natural Aces Full of Anything. Every time I seen that game before that meter was at $10. So now I'm looking at one where everything is the same except that Aces Full meter is resetting at $100.

    So I thought if the game was at about 97% when the meter starts at $10 then it has to be positive with the meter at $100.

    At the time I had Frugal Video Poker and Wolf Video Poker but this game couldn't be fully analyzed with any software because there was nothing on the market where you could isolate a Natural Full House that payed higher than the normal full houses.

    But Wolf was a big help. It cranked out a strategy chart that even included holding One Ace. All I had to do was cull out the hands that could turn into a Natural Aces Full, put the proper EV on them then move them up in the strategy chart.

    Wolf also gives you the frequencies of each playable hand dealt. So I just had to multiply that number by the chances of it turning into a Natural Aces Full.

    There are multiple routes to an Aces Full, Dealt Aces Full,3 Aces into Aces Full, 2 Aces into Aces Full, etc.

    Then I average out all the routes and it came up to making an Aces Full hand every 876 deals.

    The hand pays 200 for 1 plus has a 1% meter.

    200/876 meant the Aces Full was worth 22.8% of the payack. That meant the game was almost 114%.

    But just a 50 cent bet. Still, the game was worth $70 an hour at 1000 HPH.

    The Jackpot Aces game was on a few thousand machines in Montana. If they made the mistake on one machine they may have made it on others I thought. So I looked at that game everywhere I went. I found 23 machines total.

    I worked this game for several years. Then I taught it to one other person when I lost interest in it.

    You won't find any information on this game thru Shack or Dancer. They never heard of the game.
    Have you spent much time playing UX keno ? I’ve found some interesting pay-tables in my travels. Keno was something I actually never bothered to look at until I read one of your post some years back. Now I utilize keno for a variety of things.

  12. #12
    I ballpark, then refine my numbers or strategy based on results. I usually go conservative. Let any competition waste time on borderline plays.

  13. #13
    Record Grandma's spin data, it's just as valid as your spins.

    Easy method is snap phone pics of a session. Determine # of spins based on meter movement or session points earned.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Wolf Run Eclipse
    I stumbled onto this game recently. Haven't seen it enough to gather any stats on it but this looked good to my untrained eye:



    Played it at $2/spin. Took $756 in coin in (378 spins) to hit the mini at 33. Lost $12.74 (6.37u).

    Thought about continuing due to the Major being relatively high (up to 31 at that point) compared to the rest of the machines/denoms (almost all had Majors between 5 and 10) but decided to walk away with my small loss.

    Will try to keep my eye on this game going forward.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Wolf Run Eclipse
    I stumbled onto this game recently. Haven't seen it enough to gather any stats on it but this looked good to my untrained eye:



    Played it at $2/spin. Took $756 in coin in (378 spins) to hit the mini at 33. Lost $12.74 (6.37u).

    Thought about continuing due to the Major being relatively high (up to 31 at that point) compared to the rest of the machines/denoms (almost all had Majors between 5 and 10) but decided to walk away with my small loss.

    Will try to keep my eye on this game going forward.
    My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

    I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Wolf Run Eclipse
    I stumbled onto this game recently. Haven't seen it enough to gather any stats on it but this looked good to my untrained eye:



    Played it at $2/spin. Took $756 in coin in (378 spins) to hit the mini at 33. Lost $12.74 (6.37u).

    Thought about continuing due to the Major being relatively high (up to 31 at that point) compared to the rest of the machines/denoms (almost all had Majors between 5 and 10) but decided to walk away with my small loss.

    Will try to keep my eye on this game going forward.
    My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

    I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.
    Thanks Mickey. Will have to keep a look out for this game.

    Is there any point where you will chase a naked Mega? Or are the chances of hitting it so slim that you don't even consider it at all regardless of how high it is?

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Badger View Post

    I stumbled onto this game recently. Haven't seen it enough to gather any stats on it but this looked good to my untrained eye:



    Played it at $2/spin. Took $756 in coin in (378 spins) to hit the mini at 33. Lost $12.74 (6.37u).

    Thought about continuing due to the Major being relatively high (up to 31 at that point) compared to the rest of the machines/denoms (almost all had Majors between 5 and 10) but decided to walk away with my small loss.

    Will try to keep my eye on this game going forward.
    My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

    I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.
    Thanks Mickey. Will have to keep a look out for this game.

    Is there any point where you will chase a naked Mega? Or are the chances of hitting it so slim that you don't even consider it at all regardless of how high it is?
    The meter rarely moves on the Mega. I've done around 10K spins and have seen the mega symbol land on the 4th reel just a couple of times. So I don't really pay attention to it.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

    I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.
    Thanks Mickey. Will have to keep a look out for this game.

    Is there any point where you will chase a naked Mega? Or are the chances of hitting it so slim that you don't even consider it at all regardless of how high it is?
    The meter rarely moves on the Mega. I've done around 10K spins and have seen the mega symbol land on the 4th reel just a couple of times. So I don't really pay attention to it.
    I can believe that. I heard through the grapevine that a woman lost 3k chasing the Mega at the 0.80 bet level. Still only moved it from around 130 to around 140.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

    I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.
    This one I took came off at 67. I've never seen one come off higher, but I'm guessing others with more exposure to the game have seen it come off higher than this.
    Name:  9xUYNJm.jpeg
Views: 1845
Size:  406.1 KB

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

    I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.
    This one I took came off at 67. I've never seen one come off higher, but I'm guessing others with more exposure to the game have seen it come off higher than this.
    Name:  9xUYNJm.jpeg
Views: 1845
Size:  406.1 KB
    What did you start at?

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