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Thread: Interesting court case- Toll vs Cosmo

  1. #1
    First I am reading about this but others may have known about it. Don’t remember reading about it on forums either, but again could be wrong.

    Taking any preconceived notions out, it appears both have decent arguments. And mistakes were made on both sides. Most interesting to me was reading about the numbers lost and the projected odds Toll calculated on the drawings and slot tournaments.

    And from the forum drama, that the defamatory website someone created was used by the casino host.

    https://casetext.com/case/toll-v-nev-prop
    Last edited by The Boz; 09-13-2022 at 05:49 PM.

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    First I am reading about this but others may have known about it. Donít remember reading about it on forums either, but again could be wrong.

    Taking any preconceived notions out, it appears both have decent arguments. And mistakes were made on both sides. Most interesting to me was reading about the numbers lost and the projected odds Toll calculated on the drawings and slot tournaments.

    And from the forum drama, that the defamatory website someone created was used by the casino host.

    https://casetext.com/case/toll-v-nev-prop
    Heís the greatest most richest AP of all time right lol.

    Casino wins game over

  3. #3
    Platinum MisterV's Avatar
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    They trespassed Toll, thus making it impossible for him to personally re-enter and participate in the promotion he was trying to win.

    Assuming he would qualify due to his play as of the date of trespass, then why not allow him to send someone else, e.g. his attorney or spouse to attend and participate in his place and stead?

    That would be most equitable
    What, Me Worry?

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by MisterV View Post
    They trespassed Toll, thus making it impossible for him to personally re-enter and participate in the promotion he was trying to win.

    Assuming he would qualify due to his play as of the date of trespass, then why not allow him to send someone else, e.g. his attorney or spouse to attend and participate in his place and stead?

    That would be most equitable

    Wut

    They didnít play he got caught casino wins.


    Thatís how it is

  5. #5
    This does raise an interesting legal question.

    Regarding casino promotions which require a lot of -EV play to earn some sort of lucrative bonus/promotional play down the line, does a casino have the right to trespass someone just prior to redeeming the promotion, thus saving the company a lot of money?

    If I were in charge of the NGCB, I would definitely say that, short of egregious behavior which would warrant a clear ban, this should not be allowed. If necessary, I would say that the player should be allowed to complete the promotional play earned, even if under supervision, and THEN banned if the casino so chooses.

    Otherwise this is ripe for abuse. In fact, casinos could exact revenge upon particular APs they don't like, by inviting them to a lucrative promotion, and then banning them for some flimsy reason before redemption.

    I know that players do have a right to earned points in Nevada, but I believe promotional play is different, as casinos can rescind any offer at any time.

    According to the description in the case text, it does not seem like Toll committed anything close to an egregious violation to where they should have banned him. It looks like they just got suspicious of his play, invented reasons to search his room, and found a bunch of players' cards (mostly in his name or morphed forms of his name), and then used that as the basis to trespass him, along with some lol website created by a guy who hated him.

    Regardless of what you think of Toll himself, it does look like he got screwed here. I don't like the precedent this sets.
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  6. #6
    My natural inclination is to believe that casinos may do this more frequently than is known. Nothing better than roping people into playing negative EV promotions, and especially for extended periods of time, while actually knowing what the player has been doing that could technically disqualify them at the end. Makes money for however long the promotion runs, and if other potential winners aren't subbed in because the disqualified person is out of the equation, then money can be potentially saved on the back end, too. I tend to be cynical and think management invites these opportunities and massages them along.

    As Seed said, casinos are evil organisms.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    This does raise an interesting legal question.

    Regarding casino promotions which require a lot of -EV play to earn some sort of lucrative bonus/promotional play down the line, does a casino have the right to trespass someone just prior to redeeming the promotion, thus saving the company a lot of money?

    If I were in charge of the NGCB, I would definitely say that, short of egregious behavior which would warrant a clear ban, this should not be allowed. If necessary, I would say that the player should be allowed to complete the promotional play earned, even if under supervision, and THEN banned if the casino so chooses.

    Otherwise this is ripe for abuse. In fact, casinos could exact revenge upon particular APs they don't like, by inviting them to a lucrative promotion, and then banning them for some flimsy reason before redemption.

    I know that players do have a right to earned points in Nevada, but I believe promotional play is different, as casinos can rescind any offer at any time.

    According to the description in the case text, it does not seem like Toll committed anything close to an egregious violation to where they should have banned him. It looks like they just got suspicious of his play, invented reasons to search his room, and found a bunch of players' cards (mostly in his name or morphed forms of his name), and then used that as the basis to trespass him, along with some lol website created by a guy who hated him.

    Regardless of what you think of Toll himself, it does look like he got screwed here. I don't like the precedent this sets.
    I donít agree hereís my OPINION

    It seems WON had lost a significant amount of money and needed to access a credit line. He wasnít the only AP hitting this promotion so I donít understand how he lost the amount stated considering the options available. Probably gambling as always. Anyway once he approached his host about pulling a line he had to explain the little situation in Florida. I urge you to do the due diligence on this first. Cliffs on that situation that you can read online as itís public record involve WON pulling a line for a few hundred thousand by claiming to be part of a big time home builder lol. I will let you read the details. Anyway once he started to inquire about a line at cosmo Iím sure this came up in the casinos background check. It looks like cosmo decided to get rid of him for money laundering concerns, and based on the EVIDENCE and background this was a reasonable thing to do.

    Casinos regularly run promotions then back out or ban APs from the players club or property. I donít think this is one of Those situations. Cosmo had the right to get rid of him IMO. How they went about it may be up for debate.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Seedvalue View Post
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    This does raise an interesting legal question.

    Regarding casino promotions which require a lot of -EV play to earn some sort of lucrative bonus/promotional play down the line, does a casino have the right to trespass someone just prior to redeeming the promotion, thus saving the company a lot of money?

    If I were in charge of the NGCB, I would definitely say that, short of egregious behavior which would warrant a clear ban, this should not be allowed. If necessary, I would say that the player should be allowed to complete the promotional play earned, even if under supervision, and THEN banned if the casino so chooses.

    Otherwise this is ripe for abuse. In fact, casinos could exact revenge upon particular APs they don't like, by inviting them to a lucrative promotion, and then banning them for some flimsy reason before redemption.

    I know that players do have a right to earned points in Nevada, but I believe promotional play is different, as casinos can rescind any offer at any time.

    According to the description in the case text, it does not seem like Toll committed anything close to an egregious violation to where they should have banned him. It looks like they just got suspicious of his play, invented reasons to search his room, and found a bunch of players' cards (mostly in his name or morphed forms of his name), and then used that as the basis to trespass him, along with some lol website created by a guy who hated him.

    Regardless of what you think of Toll himself, it does look like he got screwed here. I don't like the precedent this sets.
    I donít agree hereís my OPINION

    It seems WON had lost a significant amount of money and needed to access a credit line. He wasnít the only AP hitting this promotion so I donít understand how he lost the amount stated considering the options available. Probably gambling as always. Anyway once he approached his host about pulling a line he had to explain the little situation in Florida. I urge you to do the due diligence on this first. Cliffs on that situation that you can read online as itís public record involve WON pulling a line for a few hundred thousand by claiming to be part of a big time home builder lol. I will let you read the details. Anyway once he started to inquire about a line at cosmo Iím sure this came up in the casinos background check. It looks like cosmo decided to get rid of him for money laundering concerns, and based on the EVIDENCE and background this was a reasonable thing to do.

    Casinos regularly run promotions then back out or ban APs from the players club or property. I donít think this is one of Those situations. Cosmo had the right to get rid of him IMO. How they went about it may be up for debate.


    Plus Todd word on the AP streets is he has tried legally to get you and the owners of WOV to give up the identities of posters who posted negative things about him. Things that are basically public record. All in a attempt to sue. Bennett Reeber the actor former AP was one person he has sued. Again public record so I donít get how talking about these things is defamatory. In any event i suspect this thread was posted to get some type of discussion around him to further his agenda. My opinion donít care really itís just amazing this guy keeps popping up in one lawsuit after another. Definitely a successful AP

  9. #9
    I was wondering about this as well, on how many other AP’s were doing this at Cosmo, along with some high rolling plops and how it affected the payback in tournaments and drawings.

    We all know the king of Cosmo slots is Scott Richter/ Big Jackpot/ Raja, the spam king and guy behind the Desert Storm playing cards. He loses hundreds of thousands, maybe into the millions (of suckers money) there and gets anything he wants at Cosmo and wins a decent amount of their drawings. He obviously earned enough points to be in this and wasn’t the only one. Walk around that High Limit slot area, grab a couple cookies and look at the limits people are betting, it’s crazy. YouTube slot channels are given free reign to film at will there and setup with film crews. Cosmo knows exactly what’s going on and how much money they are making off these guys.

    So I wonder if Toll properly calculated his chances of winning and if they were realistic in his court filings. I don’t want anyones secrets or details but I’m generally wondering if his math was right on his chances.

    And as Seed stated above, he probably lost much more than needed to earn the points. That UX can be very addictive and is a huge leak in “some” AP’s game.
    Last edited by The Boz; 09-16-2022 at 12:18 PM.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Seedvalue View Post
    Originally Posted by Seedvalue View Post
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    This does raise an interesting legal question.

    Regarding casino promotions which require a lot of -EV play to earn some sort of lucrative bonus/promotional play down the line, does a casino have the right to trespass someone just prior to redeeming the promotion, thus saving the company a lot of money?

    If I were in charge of the NGCB, I would definitely say that, short of egregious behavior which would warrant a clear ban, this should not be allowed. If necessary, I would say that the player should be allowed to complete the promotional play earned, even if under supervision, and THEN banned if the casino so chooses.

    Otherwise this is ripe for abuse. In fact, casinos could exact revenge upon particular APs they don't like, by inviting them to a lucrative promotion, and then banning them for some flimsy reason before redemption.

    I know that players do have a right to earned points in Nevada, but I believe promotional play is different, as casinos can rescind any offer at any time.

    According to the description in the case text, it does not seem like Toll committed anything close to an egregious violation to where they should have banned him. It looks like they just got suspicious of his play, invented reasons to search his room, and found a bunch of players' cards (mostly in his name or morphed forms of his name), and then used that as the basis to trespass him, along with some lol website created by a guy who hated him.

    Regardless of what you think of Toll himself, it does look like he got screwed here. I don't like the precedent this sets.
    I donít agree hereís my OPINION

    It seems WON had lost a significant amount of money and needed to access a credit line. He wasnít the only AP hitting this promotion so I donít understand how he lost the amount stated considering the options available. Probably gambling as always. Anyway once he approached his host about pulling a line he had to explain the little situation in Florida. I urge you to do the due diligence on this first. Cliffs on that situation that you can read online as itís public record involve WON pulling a line for a few hundred thousand by claiming to be part of a big time home builder lol. I will let you read the details. Anyway once he started to inquire about a line at cosmo Iím sure this came up in the casinos background check. It looks like cosmo decided to get rid of him for money laundering concerns, and based on the EVIDENCE and background this was a reasonable thing to do.

    Casinos regularly run promotions then back out or ban APs from the players club or property. I donít think this is one of Those situations. Cosmo had the right to get rid of him IMO. How they went about it may be up for debate.


    Plus Todd word on the AP streets is he has tried legally to get you and the owners of WOV to give up the identities of posters who posted negative things about him. Things that are basically public record. All in a attempt to sue. Bennett Reeber the actor former AP was one person he has sued. Again public record so I donít get how talking about these things is defamatory. In any event i suspect this thread was posted to get some type of discussion around him to further his agenda. My opinion donít care really itís just amazing this guy keeps popping up in one lawsuit after another. Definitely a successful AP
    Look dude, if you want to accuse me of being a friend or associate of Toll, just come out and say it. It would show you know nothing about me and are just guessing at shit. NO ONE told you I know, work with or even ever met Toll. You just made that assumption based on me posting what I thought was an interesting topic for a forum that has been dead lately.

    And I have also heard he has sued or threatened to sue forum posters and others that discredited him. And took that into consideration with my comments on the original post with nothing on his past. As you alluded to, we probably arenít getting the entire story on either side but from what I read, I feel both sides made mistakes. If true, no clue why he would bring up wearing disguises.

    In any case, no one wants to deal with frivolous lawsuits and itís garbage that itís even a discussion. Alan has threatened the same over the years. Itís just another level of the troll game when people take this stuff way too seriously.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Originally Posted by Seedvalue View Post
    Originally Posted by Seedvalue View Post

    I donít agree hereís my OPINION

    It seems WON had lost a significant amount of money and needed to access a credit line. He wasnít the only AP hitting this promotion so I donít understand how he lost the amount stated considering the options available. Probably gambling as always. Anyway once he approached his host about pulling a line he had to explain the little situation in Florida. I urge you to do the due diligence on this first. Cliffs on that situation that you can read online as itís public record involve WON pulling a line for a few hundred thousand by claiming to be part of a big time home builder lol. I will let you read the details. Anyway once he started to inquire about a line at cosmo Iím sure this came up in the casinos background check. It looks like cosmo decided to get rid of him for money laundering concerns, and based on the EVIDENCE and background this was a reasonable thing to do.

    Casinos regularly run promotions then back out or ban APs from the players club or property. I donít think this is one of Those situations. Cosmo had the right to get rid of him IMO. How they went about it may be up for debate.


    Plus Todd word on the AP streets is he has tried legally to get you and the owners of WOV to give up the identities of posters who posted negative things about him. Things that are basically public record. All in a attempt to sue. Bennett Reeber the actor former AP was one person he has sued. Again public record so I donít get how talking about these things is defamatory. In any event i suspect this thread was posted to get some type of discussion around him to further his agenda. My opinion donít care really itís just amazing this guy keeps popping up in one lawsuit after another. Definitely a successful AP
    Look dude, if you want to accuse me of being a friend or associate of Toll, just come out and say it. It would show you know nothing about me and are just guessing at shit. NO ONE told you I know, work with or even ever met Toll. You just made that assumption based on me posting what I thought was an interesting topic for a forum that has been dead lately.

    And I have also heard he has sued or threatened to sue forum posters and others that discredited him. And took that into consideration with my comments on the original post with nothing on his past. As you alluded to, we probably arenít getting the entire story on either side but from what I read, I feel both sides made mistakes. If true, no clue why he would bring up wearing disguises.

    In any case, no one wants to deal with frivolous lawsuits and itís garbage that itís even a discussion. Alan has threatened the same over the years. Itís just another level of the troll game when people take this stuff way too seriously.
    Iím not accusing you of anything. Post whatever I can also voice my concern thats itís a greater then zero percent chance Iím correct. Itís called free speech

    My opinion does not means itís factual.

    I could care less I never met the guy or have done business with him. Public record is all got really.

    For the case I believe cosmo was correct

    A hat is not a disguises In my view. Its not like he said he went full Dark oZ with a mask or anything. I didnít read that

  12. #12
    Platinum MisterV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Seedvalue View Post
    My opinion does not means it’s factual.I could care less
    Name:  fuck the truth.jpg
Views: 383
Size:  74.6 KB
    What, Me Worry?

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by MisterV View Post
    Originally Posted by Seedvalue View Post
    My opinion does not means itís factual.I could care less
    Name:  fuck the truth.jpg
Views: 383
Size:  74.6 KB
    You erased the last troll post cool guy

  14. #14
    Regarding the odds If him winning I don’t think his calculations were accurate. I rather not elaborate, but I know of three different approaches for this type of promotion. I know he utilizes a well known actuary but I have no idea if he did for this particular promotion.

    With him there was probably something else he was planning to do in combination with the promotion. Maybe cosmo figured it out.

    It’s like when everyone speculated over at WOV why he got banned from parx casino and eventually all of PA. Most thought he was laundering money but they were completely wrong.

  15. #15
    It's pretty sweaty at the Cosmo, so for those of you reading this thread that ran the play without detection - hats off to you.

  16. #16
    I have not received any kind of legal threat from Jeff Toll or his attorneys. I can say whatever I want about him. There is no court gag order upon me about anything.

    I don't know where you got that idea, Seedvalue.

    I just am not really interested in injecting myself into disputes between APs. This has never been particularly interesting to me, hence the reason I don't get involved in any of this stuff over at WoV.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I have not received any kind of legal threat from Jeff Toll or his attorneys. I can say whatever I want about him. There is no court gag order upon me about anything.

    I don't know where you got that idea, Seedvalue.

    I just am not really interested in injecting myself into disputes between APs. This has never been particularly interesting to me, hence the reason I don't get involved in any of this stuff over at WoV.
    I never understood why you never looked into the story. You are supposed to be the guy exposing fraudulent activities in the gambling community yet you decided not to investigate this individual ? Everyone spent months looking at the cheat postle who May have gotten away with a few hundred k, yet someone who
    “allegedly” stole many times that with cons in multiple communities in, and outside of gambling gets no interest from you ? The APs who took it upon themselves to create that illegal website probably saved hundreds of people from getting scammed.

    You then side with the him on this issue with cosmo ? Listen I hate casinos so I hope this guy is victorious but something doesn’t add up. So yes I do believe there is a small degree of separation between you and toll. Maybe a mutual friend in the community asked you not to bring attention? Not that you are friends with the guy personally. I suspect you wouldn’t associate with such individuals. I mean when a guy is selling vintage cars to collectors without actually having the car, and numerous other “alleged” cons I think it would have been a nice story for you to cover. Not to mention him “allegedly “ playing both sides getting APs thrown out of casinos, threatening kids of APs , stealing millions lol yeah not particularly news worthy for a fraud reporting guy. It Would have been nice for a credible individual like yourself to help substantiate or debunk the stories about him .

    It’s no big deal now I think word of mouth was good enough to inform the more seasoned guys in the community. However there’s a sucker born everyday and some people are really good at exploiting them.
    O well
    Last edited by Seedvalue; 09-26-2022 at 11:08 AM.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by MisterV View Post
    Originally Posted by Seedvalue View Post
    My opinion does not means it’s factual.I could care less
    Name:  fuck the truth.jpg
Views: 383
Size:  74.6 KB

    The truth is public record as in conviction and jail you sorry excuse for a lawyer

  19. #19
    Platinum MisterV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Seedvalue View Post
    My opinion does not means it’s factual.I could care less

    Originally Posted by Seedvalue View Post
    ... you sorry excuse for a lawyer
    That comment is merely your personal opinion and does not mean it’s factual.

    I know, you could care less...and it shows.
    Last edited by MisterV; 03-14-2023 at 11:54 AM.
    What, Me Worry?

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by MisterV View Post
    Originally Posted by Seedvalue View Post
    My opinion does not means itís factual.I could care less

    Originally Posted by Seedvalue View Post
    ... you sorry excuse for a lawyer
    That comment is merely your personal opinion and does not mean itís factual.

    I know, you could care less...and it shows.
    Go smoke
    Some
    More
    Weed
    It
    Has
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    Your
    Brain
    As
    You
    Defend
    Scum
    Of
    The
    Earth
    Convicted
    Served
    Time
    Felons
    Because
    You
    Are
    P
    o
    s
    That
    Brings
    No
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