Accounting Lesson #1

[redietz]

LOL.

Sometimes recognizing the obvious is very difficult for some people. In another thread, account let it be known that there are, in his opinion, no good reasons for an "AP" to post under his/her actual name on a forum. He also said that multiple sharp APs agreed with him. I gave him 48 hours to come to obvious conclusions. In lieu of waiting any longer, I'll break this down.

First, let's assume account is discussing "APs" in general and I'm not one. Now, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, I think he wanted to include me as an "AP." In my post that prompted his response, I explained that people wanting to dive into arbitrage wagering (called "auto-profit" in the old days, before people imported stock market terms to sports wagering circa late '90s) would have to deal with sports books exchanging information and easily seeing that was what the "arbitragers" were doing. Then the sports books would limit them. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that account was implying that posting under one's name cripples one ability to get money down. I'll get into this in "Accounting Lesson #2."

For now, gee, why would an "AP" post under his own name when it limits his ability to make money? Take 30 seconds. Here's one answer:

1) Making maximum money hands-on "AP-ing" is not the optimal financial outcome as opposed to putting your name out there in public as an "AP." For example, if there were indeed dice influencers who were aging and losing skill level, or private game poker players who were aging (thus losing physical stamina, eyesight, and skill), or blackjack players who were aging and losing eyesight, stamina, and skill level, the optimal financial angle may be to put one's name out there and take on students, or sell books, or make videos. Another example would be our own mickey crimm, who grinds it out on the highways of America. Do you think mickey crimm would be better served having a movie made about his life, which would require his real name be public? There are any number of situations where an "AP" would make more money doing things that would require his name be public. It's not for other APs to say he shouldn't do it since he is, by definition, an AP by doing what the percentage move is.

Here's another:

2) More important than (1), why would you assume that making maximum money is every AP's top priority and motivation for doing what he/she does? If having a name out there in public decreases that person's income by 10% or 30% or 50%, so what? Perhaps that person has other interests, social needs or preferences, goals, and motivations. To put it in another context, borrowing mickey crimm again, if mickey crimm had some massive settlement from 20 years ago that initially funded all of his AP work, why should he be overly concerned if he wants to interact with people, teach people, have books published under his real name? He shouldn't.

3) More important than (1) or (2), why would you assume that someone who is an AP wants to be an AP in perpetuity? APing is going to die out. It's a matter of time until your eyeballs get scanned before every casino interaction. If you don't want to be an AP in perpetuity, why not get your name out there and try to make your mark on the world under your actual name? If posting under your actual name promotes you in the non-AP endeavors to which you want to transition, or that are more of a priority in your life, then you should post under your real name.

(4) Finally, and most important, I think, if APing is what you do best, but you want to make other contributions to society, then becoming expert and then using that expertise as a platform to do other things makes perfect sense. Unless you're a hacker or a porn star (and not really for the porn stars) being anonymous to make your mark on the world doesn't cut it.

Now all of these are obvious reasons why an AP would post under his or her own name. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't recognize these reasons after 30 seconds of reflection.

To think that all APs are about maximizing what's right in front of them, micro financial transaction after micro financial transaction in perpetuity, makes APs sound like the Ferengi from Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Hyper-capitalists so focused on what they do today that they confuse what they do today for who they are.

Conversely, maybe an AP gets bored with anonymity, or wants to get laid via recognition, or wants to be recognized for having done something difficult as the walls close in on APing. Those are the more profane reasons to use one's real name, but they are still pretty good reasons.

[DGenBen]

Strictly In terms of APing (not life in general) I always thought the Ferengi were good role models.

[accountinquestion]

LOL.

Sometimes recognizing the obvious is very difficult for some people. In another thread, account let it be known that there are, in his opinion, no good reasons for an "AP" to post under his/her actual name on a forum. He also said that multiple sharp APs agreed with him. I gave him 48 hours to come to obvious conclusions. In lieu of waiting any longer, I'll break this down.

First, let's assume account is discussing "APs" in general and I'm not one. Now, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, I think he wanted to include me as an "AP." In my post that prompted his response, I explained that people wanting to dive into arbitrage wagering (called "auto-profit" in the old days, before people imported stock market terms to sports wagering circa late '90s) would have to deal with sports books exchanging information and easily seeing that was what the "arbitragers" were doing. Then the sports books would limit them. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that account was implying that posting under one's name cripples one ability to get money down. I'll get into this in "Accounting Lesson #2."

For now, gee, why would an "AP" post under his own name when it limits his ability to make money? Take 30 seconds. Here's one answer:

1) Making maximum money hands-on "AP-ing" is not the optimal financial outcome as opposed to putting your name out there in public as an "AP." For example, if there were indeed dice influencers who were aging and losing skill level, or private game poker players who were aging (thus losing physical stamina, eyesight, and skill), or blackjack players who were aging and losing eyesight, stamina, and skill level, the optimal financial angle may be to put one's name out there and take on students, or sell books, or make videos. Another example would be our own mickey crimm, who grinds it out on the highways of America. Do you think mickey crimm would be better served having a movie made about his life, which would require his real name be public? There are any number of situations where an "AP" would make more money doing things that would require his name be public. It's not for other APs to say he shouldn't do it since he is, by definition, an AP by doing what the percentage move is.

Here's another:

2) More important than (1), why would you assume that making maximum money is every AP's top priority and motivation for doing what he/she does? If having a name out there in public decreases that person's income by 10% or 30% or 50%, so what? Perhaps that person has other interests, social needs or preferences, goals, and motivations. To put it in another context, borrowing mickey crimm again, if mickey crimm had some massive settlement from 20 years ago that initially funded all of his AP work, why should he be overly concerned if he wants to interact with people, teach people, have books published under his real name? He shouldn't.

3) More important than (1) or (2), why would you assume that someone who is an AP wants to be an AP in perpetuity? APing is going to die out. It's a matter of time until your eyeballs get scanned before every casino interaction. If you don't want to be an AP in perpetuity, why not get your name out there and try to make your mark on the world under your actual name? If posting under your actual name promotes you in the non-AP endeavors to which you want to transition, or that are more of a priority in your life, then you should post under your real name.

(4) Finally, and most important, I think, if APing is what you do best, but you want to make other contributions to society, then becoming expert and then using that expertise as a platform to do other things makes perfect sense. Unless you're a hacker or a porn star (and not really for the porn stars) being anonymous to make your mark on the world doesn't cut it.

Now all of these are obvious reasons why an AP would post under his or her own name. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't recognize these reasons after 30 seconds of reflection.

To think that all APs are about maximizing what's right in front of them, micro financial transaction after micro financial transaction in perpetuity, makes APs sound like the Ferengi from Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Hyper-capitalists so focused on what they do today that they confuse what they do today for who they are.

Conversely, maybe an AP gets bored with anonymity, or wants to get laid via recognition, or wants to be recognized for having done something difficult as the walls close in on APing. Those are the more profane reasons to use one's real name, but they are still pretty good reasons.

Lol difficult for some people. You wrote a page basically saying "if you want to be a salesman, you need a brand". All this shit you listed is not even related to being an AP, it izs for using your knowledge to sell out. I'm not going to address why that in itself is not the best of ideas but I'm not going to make you try and guess because I truly don't think you get many things.

I ALMOST said something like "And the reason can't be because you're selling pics" which funnily is something you left off. It was sorta obvious what you'd come up with and you basically wrote the same thing 4 times.

Are sports bettors APs? Hmmm a little. I am too wise/old to get in goofy semantic games. If you are playing wagers at a casino then yes - otherwise probably not. But it falls under advantage gambling.

Basically everything Redietz mentioned is some form of attention whoring which is what he is accused of doing on this forum.

Good stuff.

Actually it isn't all attention whoring but most are trying a different angle on being a salesperson. The only other reason given is redietz seems to think that putting your name out there is something that will make your life more fulfilling. lol.

He has failed to give a generic reason that would apply to most of us for using our real name.

I grade this a D-. Did you do all your research on Youtube or what?! I do smell some ms-word lockdown style posting. The delay + posting in the morning. You had to think hard.

[accountinquestion]

There is another important reason I just remembered. You don't want Redietz thinking you're a coward. Thats what happens if you don't use your real name.

Or maybe he meant you're a coward for not reaching for the top and making a movie?

Redietz is that what you're aiming for? To be a movie star via kindle books and a sports picking competition 20 years ago?

Have I FIGURED IT OUT ??

[smurgerburger]

Your arguments are so bad it feels abusive to properly respond to them.

[kewlJ]

Redietz, this little crusade of yours concerning Advantage Players and anonymity on public forums is the dumbest thing you have ever undertaken. It puts you in the same boat as Alan on this topic and THAT should be concerning to you, as Alan is known, no question about it, as anti-AP.

I give you a little leeway because you are a sports bettor and not a "traditional" advantage player. Whether or not a sports bettor is an advantage player is a separate discussion.

A true AP is someone who makes his money off the casino and casino games. And we have the casino industry wanting and trying to identify us and stop us. And now there is a whole other industry of database companies very aggressively trying to identify us, so as to sell their services (and databases) to the casinos. Card counters have been dealing with this for decades. And that has now in the last decades caught up to players of other forms of advantage play, including machine players. We, as advantage players, currently have the casino industry and related database type industries trying to identify and stop us like no other time before. And the database segment is very aggressive in doing so. They have specialists that try to connect people names, handles through social media, even using friends and family.

The argument you are making, about getting your name out there for purposes of writing a book, or something, is NOT advantage play. That is marketing a product. Today "branding" is the term used. Except in very few cases, when an AP writes a book, or does any kind of thing to make money off his AP play, like seminars, running bootcamps, ect, they have pretty much moved from real advantage player to marketing. There are a few exceptions, like Grosjean.

So you are talking about two very different things. In closing, in today's climate, anyone, AP, or otherwise, need look no further than myself and my experiences on these forums to understand why an AP need be anonymous on forums and message boards. Someone who was able to "crack" my anonymity and connect it to a real name and information, severely damaged my career as an advantage player. With the help of a couple AP friends, I have been able to survive this incident (this time). But you need look no further for why a real advantage player needs to do everything he can to remain anonymous, if he is going to participate on forums and message boards.

[accountinquestion]

Your arguments are so bad it feels abusive to properly respond to them.

Out of the darkest and quietest corner of the room steps a man. A man most had forgotten was in the room. His good looks are betrayed by his haggardness. The man is dressed as if he was a different time. A time of old. As he steps forth from the shadows, he simply says, "I'd like to be in a movie about you - Bob Dietz".

[redietz]

LOL.

Sometimes recognizing the obvious is very difficult for some people. In another thread, account let it be known that there are, in his opinion, no good reasons for an "AP" to post under his/her actual name on a forum. He also said that multiple sharp APs agreed with him. I gave him 48 hours to come to obvious conclusions. In lieu of waiting any longer, I'll break this down.

First, let's assume account is discussing "APs" in general and I'm not one. Now, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, I think he wanted to include me as an "AP." In my post that prompted his response, I explained that people wanting to dive into arbitrage wagering (called "auto-profit" in the old days, before people imported stock market terms to sports wagering circa late '90s) would have to deal with sports books exchanging information and easily seeing that was what the "arbitragers" were doing. Then the sports books would limit them. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that account was implying that posting under one's name cripples one ability to get money down. I'll get into this in "Accounting Lesson #2."

For now, gee, why would an "AP" post under his own name when it limits his ability to make money? Take 30 seconds. Here's one answer:

1) Making maximum money hands-on "AP-ing" is not the optimal financial outcome as opposed to putting your name out there in public as an "AP." For example, if there were indeed dice influencers who were aging and losing skill level, or private game poker players who were aging (thus losing physical stamina, eyesight, and skill), or blackjack players who were aging and losing eyesight, stamina, and skill level, the optimal financial angle may be to put one's name out there and take on students, or sell books, or make videos. Another example would be our own mickey crimm, who grinds it out on the highways of America. Do you think mickey crimm would be better served having a movie made about his life, which would require his real name be public? There are any number of situations where an "AP" would make more money doing things that would require his name be public. It's not for other APs to say he shouldn't do it since he is, by definition, an AP by doing what the percentage move is.

Here's another:

2) More important than (1), why would you assume that making maximum money is every AP's top priority and motivation for doing what he/she does? If having a name out there in public decreases that person's income by 10% or 30% or 50%, so what? Perhaps that person has other interests, social needs or preferences, goals, and motivations. To put it in another context, borrowing mickey crimm again, if mickey crimm had some massive settlement from 20 years ago that initially funded all of his AP work, why should he be overly concerned if he wants to interact with people, teach people, have books published under his real name? He shouldn't.

3) More important than (1) or (2), why would you assume that someone who is an AP wants to be an AP in perpetuity? APing is going to die out. It's a matter of time until your eyeballs get scanned before every casino interaction. If you don't want to be an AP in perpetuity, why not get your name out there and try to make your mark on the world under your actual name? If posting under your actual name promotes you in the non-AP endeavors to which you want to transition, or that are more of a priority in your life, then you should post under your real name.

(4) Finally, and most important, I think, if APing is what you do best, but you want to make other contributions to society, then becoming expert and then using that expertise as a platform to do other things makes perfect sense. Unless you're a hacker or a porn star (and not really for the porn stars) being anonymous to make your mark on the world doesn't cut it.

Now all of these are obvious reasons why an AP would post under his or her own name. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't recognize these reasons after 30 seconds of reflection.

To think that all APs are about maximizing what's right in front of them, micro financial transaction after micro financial transaction in perpetuity, makes APs sound like the Ferengi from Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Hyper-capitalists so focused on what they do today that they confuse what they do today for who they are.

Conversely, maybe an AP gets bored with anonymity, or wants to get laid via recognition, or wants to be recognized for having done something difficult as the walls close in on APing. Those are the more profane reasons to use one's real name, but they are still pretty good reasons.

Lol difficult for some people. You wrote a page basically saying "if you want to be a salesman, you need a brand". All this shit you listed is not even related to being an AP, it izs for using your knowledge to sell out. I'm not going to address why that in itself is not the best of ideas but I'm not going to make you try and guess because I truly don't think you get many things.

I ALMOST said something like "And the reason can't be because you're selling pics" which funnily is something you left off. It was sorta obvious what you'd come up with and you basically wrote the same thing 4 times.

Are sports bettors APs? Hmmm a little. I am too wise/old to get in goofy semantic games. If you are playing wagers at a casino then yes - otherwise probably not. But it falls under advantage gambling.

Basically everything Redietz mentioned is some form of attention whoring which is what he is accused of doing on this forum.

Good stuff.

Actually it isn't all attention whoring but most are trying a different angle on being a salesperson. The only other reason given is redietz seems to think that putting your name out there is something that will make your life more fulfilling. lol.

He has failed to give a generic reason that would apply to most of us for using our real name.

I grade this a D-. Did you do all your research on Youtube or what?! I do smell some ms-word lockdown style posting. The delay + posting in the morning. You had to think hard.

Yeah, I had to think real hard. As I mentioned originally, I gave more or less these answers in the first interview I gave back in 1979 or 1980, which I stumbled across while cleaning out my 20-year-old Toyota-turned-cat-shelter.

I get a kick out of you. "Attention whoring?" I guess that's your line for anyone who actually has credentials or has accomplished anything in public. As opposed to someone clinging to anonymity because, gee, nobody can check to see what you've actually done.

I suspect you are one of those guys with a lot of participation trophies.

If I figure out how to post that initial interview, I'll do it. The interview was conducted right before the Steelers/Rams Super Bowl.

[kewlJ]

I see you (redietz) have started a second thread with almost the same title. I have no idea why you would do that.

I don't know., maybe I have no idea what this is really about. But here is what I think it is all about.

On these forums, there are a small group of trolls, AP haters, whatever name you want to use, that are out to discredit players making money from casinos. They are mostly bitter, losing, degenerate gambler type players, but I have come to learn there can be other reasons, like they don't like someone for reasons completely unrelated to gambling and these forums. This small group of trolls, haters and even a couple people like Ozzy that know these folks are nothing but trolls and haters, but encourage them for their own amusement purposes, do everything in their power to discredit real players. EVERYTHING!

So someone like this Rob Singer person, challenges your claims redietz, and challenges you to post picks beforehand, basically challenging your credibility, so you set out to prove your credibility. That is a fight you can't win! You can never prove anything to their satisfaction, because.....wait for it.... they are trolls, fulfilling some sort of need to hate and lie.

Redietz, there are no real people that doubt who you are and what you do. You need not prove anything. I always say real people, with half a brain, anyone who isn't trolling and playing games, will figure out who knows what they are talking about and who is just talking. You have done more than enough that anyone with half a brain knows. So you are trying to prove something to that small percent, those Rob Singer's of the world, that you can't prove anything to, because they will accept no proof. They live in a fantasy world and nothing you do or say can change that.

[redietz]

Redietz, this little crusade of yours concerning Advantage Players and anonymity on public forums is the dumbest thing you have ever undertaken. It puts you in the same boat as Alan on this topic and THAT should be concerning to you, as Alan is known, no question about it, as anti-AP.

I give you a little leeway because you are a sports bettor and not a "traditional" advantage player. Whether or not a sports bettor is an advantage player is a separate discussion.

A true AP is someone who makes his money off the casino and casino games. And we have the casino industry wanting and trying to identify us and stop us. And now there is a whole other industry of database companies very aggressively trying to identify us, so as to sell their services (and databases) to the casinos. Card counters have been dealing with this for decades. And that has now in the last decades caught up to players of other forms of advantage play, including machine players. We, as advantage players, currently have the casino industry and related database type industries trying to identify and stop us like no other time before. And the database segment is very aggressive in doing so. They have specialists that try to connect people names, handles through social media, even using friends and family.

The argument you are making, about getting your name out there for purposes of writing a book, or something, is NOT advantage play. That is marketing a product. Today "branding" is the term used. Except in very few cases, when an AP writes a book, or does any kind of thing to make money off his AP play, like seminars, running bootcamps, ect, they have pretty much moved from real advantage player to marketing. There are a few exceptions, like Grosjean.

So you are talking about two very different things. In closing, in today's climate, anyone, AP, or otherwise, need look no further than myself and my experiences on these forums to understand why an AP need be anonymous on forums and message boards. Someone who was able to "crack" my anonymity and connect it to a real name and information, severely damaged my career as an advantage player. With the help of a couple AP friends, I have been able to survive this incident (this time). But you need look no further for why a real advantage player needs to do everything he can to remain anonymous, if he is going to participate on forums and message boards.

I think you're missing the point, kewlJ, as you sometimes do. You've set up a straw man argument.

The debate isn't whether all or most APs should be anonymous on forums. The question is whether there are reasons for SOME APs to NOT be anonymous on forums. Look no further than Jean Scott or Bob Dancer, both of whose real names are widely known. They've charted a hybrid course through pen names but no real anonymity. Look at Billy Walters. He's employed beards and all that, but his wagers have not exactly been anonymous. And neither is he.

[redietz]

Strictly In terms of APing (not life in general) I always thought the Ferengi were good role models.

Not to get too meta, but I was always a Spider-Man role model guy. I have an Amazing Fantasy #15, by the way. Spider-Man stopped many bank robbers, but he was often so broke that he had to take his dates on the metro rather than via taxi. It was never about the money with Spider-Man.

[kewlJ]

The people you mention, Jean Scott, Dancer (is Dancer his real name?), Billy Waters and we have some people in the BJ world that used their real names as well, like Don Schlesinger, Norm Wattenberger, James Grosjean (way more than just blackjack these days), are all people that that started in a very different era than we are in today.

And you also have some hybred AP's and brand marketing people like Shackleford and Anthony Curtis. Jean Scott and Dancer may fall into this Catagory as well.

But most of the people you mentioned and that I mentioned in my first paragraph, if they had it to do over again, today, playing in this era, this toxic environment would do everything they could to protect their name. That is what is necessary in today world.

[kewlJ]

Redietz, have you ever walked up to the sports betting window to place a bet and been told, we don't want YOUR action? Have you ever been denied entry into one of these contests because of who you were (a known sports bettor)?

You have never mentioned anything like that, so at the risk of assuming, I will assume not. But once that happens I think you will view the value of protecting your name including anonymity on forums and message boards a little differently.

[redietz]

The question again is, are there SOME APs who would choose to use their real names because their overall goals are better served by NOT being anonymous? Of course the answer is yes.

You're assuming that in-the-now survival makes for some blanket policy for everyone who APs. That' silly and obviously not right. I don't see how anyone can argue that ALL APs should be anonymous. That's irrational.

And no, Dancer is not his real name. God forbid.

[kewlJ]

AccountinQuestion is not one of my favorite people here, so I have no reason to defend him, but I think you are nit-picking.

The facts are 1) that AP's make money from casinos and 2) that the casino industry, which includes casinos, and the supporting databases type "protection" companies want to identify and stop AP's from doing so.

To that, AP's should do everything they can to protect their identity and that most certainly includes posting anonymously on forums. Now if you want to find some rare and extreme example, so be it.

[redietz]

Redietz, have you ever walked up to the sports betting window to place a bet and been told, we don't want YOUR action? Have you ever been denied entry into one of these contests because of who you were (a known sports bettor)?

You have never mentioned anything like that, so at the risk of assuming, I will assume not. But once that happens I think you will view the value of protecting your name including anonymity on forums and message boards a little differently.

Of course I have. Hell, 35 years ago, the Stardust put a $50 limit on my parlay card bets, but that had less to do with my name and more to do with what I was doing, and even more to do with what other people were doing. When I went to a window, the manager would follow me to that window to make sure I didn't get more than $50 down.

You come to terms with what your priorities are. If your priorities are better served being NOT anonymous, then you take the good with the bad.

You can't seriously believe that ALL APs are better served being anonymous. You don't know what their goals or motivations or priorities in life are. You don't know if they are on the tail end of their skill sets or their energy levels.

[kewlJ]

If a player is "at the tail end of their skill sets or their energy levels", and choose to no longer be anonymous for the purposes of marketing and promoting a product, in this case their previous advantage play experiences, then they are no longer an active AP or are transitioning away from advantage play. These are two separate things.

What would make you happy? Would you feel better if AiQ had said "active" AP's or some sort of disclaimer about AP's NOT ending their careers? Again, no offense, but you seem to be nit-picking an argument.

Anyway, I am heading out for a while so you continue your nit-picking if you must. All I know is that as an active AP, I do what I can to protect my identity and that most certainly includes not using my real name on open forums. And events of the last year have proven the importance of this. There are not just the casinos and casino support type companies and people to be on the look out for but members of the community or low life's posing as members of the community that are trying to do you harm.

In this day and age, unless it is a completely new person to the community, and I mean REAL new person, not a sock puppet pretending (and you can tell the difference), I would be very skeptical of anyone NOT posting anonymously. Marcus Clark, among others for example.

[kewlJ]

let me put it this way: Show me one real AP, that isn't promoting some book, video, boot camp, ect that has used their real name. Everyone we both have mention promoted something at some time or another. So show me one real AP who's focus in entirely on winning money from casinos and not promoting anything that used their real name. If you are able to come up with someone, It will be it was someone from an era long gone. Doing this today for an AP is a death sentence to your AP career. Even if you play recreationally.

[mcap]

Red, you best check yourself lest you wreck yourself. Dan Druff doesn’t even go by his real name on his own forums.

[monet]

best check yourself lest you wreck yourself.

Showing your age.