Gaming author John Grochowski has tackled our "favorite" video poker issues in his newest article on his website:
http://grochowski.casinocitytimes.com/
RNGs and timing and continuous shuffle... the good stuff we like to discuss.
Gaming author John Grochowski has tackled our "favorite" video poker issues in his newest article on his website:
http://grochowski.casinocitytimes.com/
RNGs and timing and continuous shuffle... the good stuff we like to discuss.
Yes we've discussed these thing many times. But what does anyone want to hear--what Grochowski says afterwards?
He's certainly a sensible guy, and he likely hasn't read what I wrote about the, are you ready, new generation IGT GameKing machine that I discovered DOES NOT continuously shuffle. So that person who asked if he would have received the royal had the cocktail waitress not bothered him, did not receive the proper answer in every sense. The only right part was that these days machines are not manufactured where ten cards are chosen at MAX BET any more.
So Rob, the other night when I was dealt 4 to the royal and drew the Jack of Hearts ... was I going to get that Jh no matter when I pushed the button?
I should mention it was NOT a game king machine, but it was an IGT machine with only one game on it which was Bonus poker with denominations 25-cents, 50-cents, $1 and $2.
That I don't know for sure, because there is a shuffle when the draw button is pushed. It's a mechanical operation that triggers a digital function (a "shuffle") so it may be a matter of how the button is pushed. I did not see any "shuffle" activity when I touched the screen for the draw.
What do you mean by you didnt see any "shuffle activity" ?? Were you able to see the RNG working??
The equipment showed a flurry of activity originating from within the chipset whenever ANY button was pushed, and that includes the hold buttons. It also activated when the touch option was chosen for a deal, but not a draw. That was odd. But as I previously thought was the case, there was no "shuffling" at all during any idle time. None. Either way, I didn't think it was a big deal to talk abou t because of the real reason I was looking at the machine. The machines shuffle when they're programmed to shuffle. Over the years it's changed, but a shuffle is a shuffle.
What do you mean by a flurry of activity? How can you tell if a flurry of activity is shuffling or isn't shuffling? Do you have a TV monitor that can show the activity of the RNG chip inside the machine?Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Alan, wheels has no idea what he is talking about. He's just trying to impress people that he knows something. He doesn't have a clue how to reverse engineer IGT chips so at best he's guessing ... at worst, he's just lying to try and sound important.
My guess would be the idle code automatically shuffle the cards. That would be the easiest method of implementation. Since I have programmed idle loops in real machines I know exactly how this could be accomplished. Simple, direct and way over the head of a d----.
Yes arci has done everything during the punch card era, except...what's this? Oh my, they didn't have vp machines way back then, and they understood what those smarter than them IN THEIR OWN FIELDOriginally Posted by Alan Mendelsonhad to say.
When you say a tv monitor you are close. I had a test equipment suite hooked up every operational function of the machine with a scope that delivered information in formats arci would have no idea how to read. Why? Because it's technology that came along after he escaped the world of geeks once bitten by the video poker bug. And just the fact that arci had to hide his embarrassment at not really understanding what I posted by ranting over how I was trying to "impress" indicates the oatmeal did not mix to the proper consistency this morning.
Oh my. This is hysterical. Wheels thinks he can determine what's going on inside a computer program by hooking up a scope. All a scope does is tell you if something is active or not. It tells you nothing about what actual logic is being performed. And, if you don't have a listing of the programs you have no idea what is happening. Only a complete d---- would think they could understand how a machines operates with an oscilloscope.
Let's give an easy example. When computers are idle they really aren't. They are looping in what is called the "idle state". What that means is the computer is still running instructions that are essentially constantly checking for something to do. When a key is pressed that generates what's called an interrupt and the interrupt handling code turns on an indicator that means there is something to do. The machine then goes off and runs the code associated with that key.
All that a scope will tell you is something happened. That's about it. And, if a call to the shuffling code is built into the idle state code, it would go on when it appears the machine is idle.
Arc wrote this: Let's give an easy example. When computers are idle they really aren't. They are looping in what is called the "idle state". What that means is the computer is still running instructions that are essentially constantly checking for something to do. When a key is pressed that generates what's called an interrupt and the interrupt handling code turns on an indicator that means there is something to do. The machine then goes off and runs the code associated with that key.
That is indeed my understanding about how modern video poker machines work. They are constantly "on" and shuffling cards. And only when you push the deal/draw button does it stop the shuffling function.
And Rob, just a comment about changing technology:
When I was 17 years old, I studied for and obtained an FCC First Class Radio Telephone Operator License which allowed me to run transmitters at radio and TV stations and to performance maintenance on TV and radio transmitters. It's how I worked my way through college. I obtained my license in 1969 before TV stations had video news cameras. Yet, in 1981 when I was on an out of town assignment with my camera crew when I workd at WTVJ in Miami, and the damn Ikegami video camera busted, I knew what to do to fix it. And when the separate tape machine got jammed and was sending RF signal alerts I knew how to fix it. When I went to school for the FCC first class license in 1969 this type of equipment was just a dream and was no where in any of the text books or course work -- and it certainly wasn't on the FCC exams that I had to take.
The point being, knowledge continues with you even as technology changes.
Alan, I'm not an expert on computers, but I am an expert in test equipment and analyzing what they're telling us. The things arci wrote seem to be a good part of the story, but as he has never had a machine to study and has no idea how to utilize TE or understand what and how they report results, what he's getting at remains unclear.
This idea that machines are constantly shuffling has always been accepted, even by me, because....well, where did that rumor start anyway? What I saw is there is NO activity occuring in a vp machine other than standard electronic monitoring to "interrupt" during a machine's idle phase. My conclusion after seeing what happened as the buttons were pushed is that that's where/when the shuffling is taking place. I don't really care, but I believe it makes a lot more sense since I had that machine, and those who say it's different are just quoting rumor and popular positions about an overall meaningless lssue.
Why do you say "rumor" Rob? Engineers and officials at IGT have been quoted in various reports and articles?
Frankly, I wonder if you had a "casino ready" machine or some factory reject that they gave you to fool around with?
Alan, by now you should be getting an idea that wheels really is a d----. The ignorance displayed in his comments is astounding. What he did is equivalent to tying an electrode to a single neuron in the brain and claiming he knows what you are thinking. It is pure delusion. However, it is right is character with all the other nonsense he spews.
The only "factory reject" is the person making silly claims.
Well, it's happened AGAIN. I open up a thread that has good intention and is of great interest as I have been following Grochowski for years, have traded emails, and have had my questions to him published. Instead, it's another cat fight about who knows the most, who is the biggest expert, etc. The only thing left to fight about is who has the biggest fishing tackle on the boat, if you know what I mean.
Now I'll do what you do: Please produce an article by an IGT engineer or official stating how the machine "shuffles". Once I see who is saying that I will ask my contact, who is still there, about it. This subject is something I've not yet discussed with him because it doesn't have anything to do with intelligently approaching the game to make a consistent profit. And if you can give me an urgent reason to have this information then I WILL ask to be sure. In the meantime, I trust what I found from testing to a 90% confidence level.Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
The machine was no reject, and that serial number is currently sitting on the floor at Aliante Station. I paid $1500 to someone who got it to me before it was leased out to Stations. I disclosed all this to the NGC when I sent them my report summary, which is most likely why they just wanted to snuff it out. Like I said, anything can be investigated in the casino business for the right price. I could have sat on the sidelines and made believe I knew it all so I didn't have to do anything, like arci, or I could do whatever I could to understand things better.
The reason I believe this is correct is because when I tried to "make" a machine in an apparent cold cycle "pay" by using every special play I could think of-even sweeping some hands-it didn't matter what I tried. I would not have gotten a winner even if I had chosen the other winning possibility of two choices of a draw.Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Or .... this is just what one would expect with a random machine. We all have bad streaks which, if they did not occur, would mean the machines were not random. You've given a perfect example of someone trying to fit a pattern to randomness. You'll do anything but believe the obvious.Originally Posted by slingshot
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