i feel like i robbed two casinos

[Alan Mendelson]

Just went to two casinos to run my free play through on 8/5 Bonus. At #1 I had $230 free play and left with $180. At #2 I had $50 and playing fifty cents left with $57.50.

[arcimede$]

Alan, if you're not careful people are going to think you're an advantage player. I used to make regular runs of casinos in Vegas and only play the FP in each one that I had earned and cash out. I remember another AP at a free dinner once telling us how he and his wife had earned $30K the year before in FP alone.

[Alan Mendelson]

Arc, that was also my plan this past weekend when I had $2500 of free play. But before I collected that free play, I put that $200 in the $2 7/5 Bonus machine and hit the $8,000 royal. It's nice when your plans go astray.

At one of the casinos last night, I only run through the free play because a couple of years ago when I hit two royals only weeks apart plus multiple quad aces with kicker on $5 DDB then drastically cut my offers including free play. This is payback.

[redietz]

I love when anyone kicks casinos' asses, so congratulations and torture the b******s.

[Rob.Singer]

Alan, if you're not careful people are going to think you're an advantage player. I used to make regular runs of casinos in Vegas and only play the FP in each one that I had earned and cash out. I remember another AP at a free dinner once telling us how he and his wife had earned $30K the year before in FP alone.

All so-called AP's always have tons of freeplay because they don't know how to stop playing. Does that mean they win anything? Of course not, and why give that false impression, unless it helps you get thru your day.

One day I had a meet with AP extraordinair Elliot Shapiro at the Suncoast. We talked for 45 minutes, and he must have bragged about all his freeplay and cashback for 2/3 of our chat. We went over to his tiny unkept rented house in a sordid section of town for a beer afterwards and so one of his relatives could meet me, only I had to stop and get a six pack on the way.

BTW, Frank told me that Elliot was in constant competition with him for "manager" of their stupid progressives team. No wonder the guy was struggling, probably always broke like most of the AP's who "lurk on the streets of Vegas" and had nothing else to brag about outside of slot club fluff. Kinda like arci, only this guy didn't lie and he wasn't a "tested genius"!!

[arcimede$]

I see the envy is still dripping off of every word that wheels can muster. His lies only betray his own addiction and hatred of all successful advantage players.

[Alan Mendelson]

I see the envy is still dripping off of every word that wheels can muster. His lies only betray his own addiction and hatred of all successful advantage players.

Alan, if you're not careful people are going to think you're an advantage player. I used to make regular runs of casinos in Vegas and only play the FP in each one that I had earned and cash out. I remember another AP at a free dinner once telling us how he and his wife had earned $30K the year before in FP alone.

Just an observation on my part: I don't think anyone who gets $30,000 of free play a year can be called "successful." I would think they probably lost much more than that in order to prompt the casino to give them that much free play.

Winners do get some free play-- but it's the losers who get the big free play deals and promotions. After all, free play is nothing more than a rebate on prior losses.

edited to add: cash back is different. you can get cash back on winnings since cash back is a percentage of your bet or coin in and not based on wins or losses. My free play dropped dramatically at several local casinos after I hit some royals. At the same time, the casinos publish what their formulas are for cash back and you can monitor your cash back to be sure they are properly figured.

[Rob.Singer]

Alan, it's the GENIUS who should be dealing out facts, not someone who hasn't got his hat on straight.

[arcimede$]

Just an observation on my part: I don't think anyone who gets $30,000 of free play a year can be called "successful." I would think they probably lost much more than that in order to prompt the casino to give them that much free play.

Alan, this was back in 2004 when 2% edges were to be found all over Vegas. IIRC the couple indicated they has made well over 6 figures in total income.

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan, this was back in 2004 when 2% edges were to be found all over Vegas. IIRC the couple indicated they has made well over 6 figures in total income.

I think leaving out 2004 was a critical point. Free play offers and cash back have been substantially reduced all over the industry since 2004. We should discuss current facts, not history, to help us make our decisions.

[arcimede$]

Alan, there are people making more than that in FP even now. Yes, the base machine returns have been reduced but the FP is still large.

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan, there are people making more than that in FP even now. Yes, the base machine returns have been reduced but the FP is still large.

Yes I guess there are big losers. I'm sure no one is fooling you Arc. The more free play you get means the more you lost and the casinos figure the more you will lose.

When they hand out those free play envelopes there should be printing on them that says "thanks, sucker."

[arcimede$]

Yes I guess there are big losers. I'm sure no one is fooling you Arc. The more free play you get means the more you lost and the casinos figure the more you will lose.

When they hand out those free play envelopes there should be printing on them that says "thanks, sucker."

Various casinos have different methods of determining FP. Some, as you say, are based on wins/losses, but others are simply based on coin-in or even tier levels. That's why a person needs to understand the details of a casinos operation. It can make a big difference in how much money can be won.

[Rob.Singer]

Alan, when you finally accept that all arci is doing is painting a perfect virtual world that says he's right no matter what, you'll understand why he keeps on saying such stupid things. He's involved in a no-way-out, of-no-added-value life, and if he doesn't get attention then he has absolutely no reason to live. And even with all the hatred he has for the way he has to live today, he still pretends all is well on the western front.

That makes me tingle

[Alan Mendelson]

I'm guilty of another hit and run on Friday. This time I had $50 free play from Pechanga (my last weekly $50 free play coupon because starting in July I get only $5 a week), and I had $60 weekly free play from Rincon plus a one-time daily free play coupon for $200.

At Pechanga I didn't have much luck playing $1 8/5 Bonus and only hit a couple of pairs and two two-pair hands. I decided just to play it till it was gone unless I hit something big. And in a few hands it was gone. But I did use the last of my comps (about $27) for gas at the Pechanga gas station for what will probably be my last visit to Pechanga for a long, long time. Then I turned right on Pechanga Parkway for the 20 minute ride to Rincon.

At Rincon I tried something different and I regret doing it. I took the first $200 of free play (the one-time daily free play) and played $1 double-double 8/5 Aces and Faces which is like double-double bonus except the big bonus hands are with the monarchy cards and not the small numbers. Two pair only gets you your money back. I hit no big hands, just one full house, and the $200 was gone too quickly-- but it probably gave me almost a half hour of play.

For the remaining $60 which was my weekly free play money, I went to my favorite 8/5 Aces and Faces at the $1 level. And here is where I got lucky. I had a few small wins that I kept playing but with only $5 left on the machine -- my very last play -- I was dealt 7h 8h 9h 10h and some spade that did not give me a straight. I got lucky and drew the Jh for a $250 straight flush. I was back in business.

I now set myself a "promise" to cash out with $200 and went on to play for about another half hour. I got up to a bit more than $450 at one point thanks to hitting quad queens ($200), but I did keep the promise to myself to cash out with the $200.

I was tempted to play a little live poker on the way home, but decided not to since I am going to Vegas Saturday evening to catch a free play offer at Caesars on Sunday.

In all, Friday ended with being up $200 cash plus $27 of gas (and Pechanga's gas cost about 20-cents a gallon less than what I pay in LA) and the free gas was about half the gas used for the trip.

This time, I also put on about an hour's worth of play of $1 video poker at Rincon so somewhere along the line that will mean some extra comp and bounce back money and some extra tier score points and extra Great Gift Wrap Up points for the shopping sprees in November and December.

Unfortunately my combination of daily and weekly free play offers from Rincon during July will not justify any drop-in or day trips there. On Friday, my total offers for both Rincon and Pechanga added up to $310. In July the best I will do is $55 weekly, a one-time play of $25 for May's bounce back money (must be played in July) plus an assortment of one-time $60 free play offers. So my maximum for any one day trip would be $140 at Rincon plus $5 from Pechanga, for a grand total of $145.

Subtract $60 for gas, plus four+ hours of travel time, wear and tear and I don't see myself making the drive during July. On the other hand, on Sunday I get $2500 free play at Caesars and there is another $2500 free play offer at the end of July at Caesars, plus another $2500 in early August at Caesars. So Las Vegas looks "hot" to me this summer... figuratively and literally.

Now, all I need is a little Rob Singer discipline!!

[redietz]

First of all, others have verified that the Pechanga free play has dropped off the map. So it's not just you.

Then, a couple of questions. When you get the free play at Caesars', is that the company or the casino? If it's the casino, using the free play is property-specific or not? Caesars, before the takeover, had 9/6 J or B. Now they have? Have you found much difference in vp between the Bally's/Paris/Caesars/Harrah's/Rio properties? Have you found much difference, comp-wise for craps, among the properties?

I read where you were short-changed in comps playing craps. I have some friends who have made an art form out of getting over-comped playing craps. Is it absolutely necessary to have a pit boss take your card at the Caesars' properties, or will they track you if you are a non-card high roller?

Anyway, good luck with the free play. That's a sizable boatload, so treat it well.

[Rob.Singer]

I believe his freeplay is only for Caesars Palace.

If I had $7500 in freeplay this summer and had to drive from LA three times to get it all, I would play it all thru just once each time on the 25c - $1 BP machines and expect to make no less than $4000 out of it. I would call that a good success because it's pure profit witout the risk--something I've done many, many times. Don't worry about loyalty or anything silly like that. And just go home each time you're done-- or take a nap, have a bite and then leave. That is what I mean by doing exactly the opposite as a casino expects. The reason they give you such lucrative freeplay is because you're 7 Stars, and those people almost never pop in for freeplay and then leave.

[Alan Mendelson]

Some good questions: I can't speak about others when it comes to Pechanga, but my free play started to be cut two years ago after I had a big run over three months including two $20K royals plus several $10K wins with quad aces + kicker on DDB. Then all of a sudden instead of getting a couple of hundred dollars a week of free play it dropped to $75, then $50 and now $5. True, I wasn't playing much there anymore since the first big drop.

The Caesars offer is good at any Las Vegas property. These are "total rewards" offers based on my overall play. What's good about TR is that all Vegas play counts towards Vegas promotions. However, my play at Rincon while it contributes to tier score does not induce free play in Vegas.

There is still 9/6 Jacks and 8/5 Bonus at Caesars at the $5/coin and higher level. When I hit that $2 royal on the last trip I was playing 7/5 Bonus. The $1 and $2 bonus machines are all 7/5. I think all of the DDB machines on the property including the $100 and $25 games are 9/5. I will have to give them a second look since I don't play them.

Comps for craps is really a crap shoot. This is why you should always "check out" with the floor person when you finish your session to be sure the rating was correct. Even if the rating is correct it is a complete mystery how they give you comps and points for your craps play. Unlike the machines, the table game comp system seems to be a secret and the numbers are not published anywhere.

In the old days before Total Rewards, if you played 4 hours a day with XXX dollars you got a certain level of comps. In my case I used to play a standard $205 average bet for four hours or longer and I got RFB. But Total Rewards replaced that. Now your comps are all based on "recorded play" -- and whatever that is at craps is a mystery.

Will the craps pit comp you without a card? I don't know. I know they always ask for cards and I've never seen anyone ask for a comp. Could you buy in for $5-thousand without a card and ask for a comp later or ask for a host? I guess you could.

But here's a story that I've told before. Back in the old days before Total Rewards, a friend of mine came to Caesars with his usual $25,000 bankroll for playing craps for the weekend. But he ran into terrible luck and lost the entire $25k in less than one four hour session. At the end of the weekend he was told he would not get his regular comps because he didn't play a minimum of four hours each day for the three day stay. Of course he appealed to upper management which gave him his comps but it just shows how arrogant the old system was -- and still could be to this day. Today if you played through 25K on video poker I am sure you would rack up enough points to cover your weekend.

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob the free play is good at any casino. Unfortunately, the free play coupons cannot be used at less than the $1 denomination machines.

[arcimede$]

You can only "rob" a casino for so long and the freeplay will dry up. I have done this before as well when I had no intention of going back to the casino due to changes the casino had made. Maybe Alan will turn into an APer yet.