My Casino back-rooming.

[kewlJ]

I wasn't going to share this on open forum, but it has now become pretty common knowledge throughout the Las Vegas AP community and since I have decided not to pursue any legal action, will share this incident.

Up until recently, I had never been back-roomed, that is taken off the casino floor. There was an incident back in 2006 or 2007 before I moved to Las Vegas were I was being led to a backroom and talked my way out of it, simply by mentioning Bob Nersesian's name. That tactic did not work this time around.

This incident occurred several weeks ago at a notoriously sweaty casino "south" (<- ) of the strip. I was forcibly taken to a backroom, roughed up, resulting in a broken arm. Not the hammer induced broken arm stuff from the movies, but just a fracture resulting from being roughed up and thrown into a chair. My requests to contact my attorney were denied. My requests for medical attention were denied, even after I stated that I thought my arm was broken. I was read a trespass statement, told not to return and signed some documentation to that effect and then released, all of which is illegal, starting with the illegal detention itself. The whole incident probably took 15-20 minutes.

During my 14 years living and playing here in Las Vegas, I have probably had 60-70 backoffs, with 90% what we call "polite backoffs". "You are too good, no more blackjack", "your game is too strong", something along those lines. But I honestly thought this kind of shit was over with in Las Vegas, in large part because of the many lawsuits that have held casinos and casino personnel accountable for their illegal actions.

And because I have benefited from all those other players taking such action, I almost feel an obligation to pursue some legal action, not for the money but to do my part in holding casinos and the individual people responsible to hopefully deter this kind of future behavior. BUT doing so, is just going to be far more damaging to my circumstances and goals of longevity than any financial reward I would win, because it would be in the news if I went forward. In the end I have to do what is best for my situation.

People wonder why APs, myself included and really anyone that knows and deals with this industry, despises the industry so much.

[Tasha]

Kewlj, did Zenking possess you? Your latest post are very reminiscent of Zenking.

[kewlJ]

Kewlj, did Zenking possess you? Your latest post are very reminiscent of Zenking.

I do not recall Zenking posting of any backroom incident. If there was something please refresh my memory. He has had some backoff of which he has spoken that were a little unfriendlier than most of the "polite backoffs" that I and other players I talk to have experienced, but that is because Zenking does exactly the wrong thing in those situation. He becomes confrontational and combative, when the play is to exit quickly and quietly.

I know the game within the game, and how to play the game within the game and handle different situations. But it becomes harder when the opponent won't play by the rules, OR THE LAW.

[smurgerburger]

God forbid you get in a car and drive to a casino not located in Las Vegas.

[mickeycrimm]

I would sue no matter what. Take the money and buy a business.

[kewlJ]

I would sue no matter what. Take the money and buy a business.

I don't think we are talking that kind of money, mickey. If I thought we were talking multiple 6 figures it would be worth it. Grosjean won half a million, but the verdicts that followed were much less usually low 6 figures or even upper 5 figures. If we are talking 75k, or even slightly more, right off the top attorney fees are 33% and there would be several years before any trial with publicity and my name being out there. I just can't afford that on the heels of issues I have deal with over the last 18 months.

It pains me to make that decision....it really does. More than any financial amount, I would love to see security management be held accountable and lose their jobs, just to send a freaking message going forward. That would only occur with a sizeable verdict against. But I just can't do it right now.

[MisterV]

Why did you allow them to take you to the "back room?"

Isn't the correct play to simply head for the exit?

So far as not "lawyering up:" did you call Bob and talk to him about your options, and the likely recovery amount?

C'mon man, you say they roughed you up and broke your arm: in this day and age that seems egregious.

Talk to Bob; could be it can be settled quickly without a lot of publicity.

Anyway, the damage is done as if you showed ID they have your name, address and pic as does OSN.

[smurgerburger]

I would sue no matter what. Take the money and buy a business.

I don't think we are talking that kind of money, mickey. If I thought we were talking multiple 6 figures it would be worth it. Grosjean won half a million, but the verdicts that followed were much less usually low 6 figures or even upper 5 figures. If we are talking 75k, or even slightly more, right off the top attorney fees are 33% and there would be several years before any trial with publicity and my name being out there. I just can't afford that on the heels of issues I have deal with over the last 18 months.

It pains me to make that decision....it really does. More than any financial amount, I would love to see security management be held accountable and lose their jobs, just to send a freaking message going forward. That would only occur with a sizeable verdict against. But I just can't do it right now.

I'm no lawyer but I think breaking your arm makes a big difference.

[smurgerburger]

Why did you allow them to take you to the "back room?"

Isn't the correct play to simply head for the exit?

So far as not "lawyering up:" did you call Bob and talk to him about your options, and the likely recovery amount?

C'mon man, you say they roughed you up and broke your arm: in this day and age that seems egregious.

Talk to Bob; could be it can be settled quickly without a lot of publicity.

Anyway, the damage is done as if you showed ID they have your name, address and pic as does OSN.

They'll physically coerce you. I believe standard advice now is to state plainly that you do not consent to ago and indicate that to a camera if you can but to make limited effort to physically resist as the casino can represent that at trial is you getting aggressive with their security or something.

[kewlJ]

Why did you allow them to take you to the "back room?"

Isn't the correct play to simply head for the exit?

With due respect to your legal knowledge and expertise MrV, it isn't about "allowing" anything.

Here is the was it went down. I was requested to step away from the table. (not really a request). So I responded that I was just leaving anyway and gathers my chip. With players I have talked to that sometimes is enough to end this situation. It wasn't in this case. Next they tell you they are taking you to sign some documents. I responded telling them that this was an illegal detention and requesting to contact my attorney. This should be enough to let them know that you know the law and what the consequences will be if they continue with this illegal detention. At that point if they continue, they are knowingly breaking the law.

If you resist in any way, and a struggle ensues, they can claim you were creating a disturbance and a threat, so you don't want to do that.

I did everything textbook, just as I had always planned I would if the situation ever arose.

After I was released and exited the building, I called an ambulance from right there outside the front door. I didn't need an ambulance and could have driven myself, but I wanted the documentation of what had happened and where. At the hospital, I called the police who took a statement with injuries backed up by medical personél at the hospital.

The next morning, I called my attorney, and you know who he is, he is THE expert in these cases. He immediately put an order in for the casino to hold the video of the incident. We met the following day and discussed options, probably outcomes, timelines and what would be involved. One of the big problems for me, is this kind of case can't really be handled quietly. You really need to contact the media. It is almost like you are trying the case in the court of public opinion before it ever gets close to trail, with the hope of a settlement, which would not come until much later.

I thought about everything for a couple weeks now, and I just am not willing to go through all that and made my final decision over the weekend and informed my attorney. I think the money involved and the long timeline involved is not enough to offset the damage to my career and anonymity that I would incur.

[MisterV]

Thanks for the clarification as to how to respond, smurgerburger, I stand corrected.

Do they tape what happens when "back roomed?"

[kewlJ]

but to make limited effort to physically resist as the casino can represent that at trial is you getting aggressive with their security or something.

Exactly correct! If you resist, and a struggle ensues, they can say you were creating a disturbance and a threat. I don't think casino security carries taser (don't know for sure), but if you did this involving police, they could use that as an excuse to taser and use force.

[kewlJ]

Do they tape what happens when "back roomed?"

There was a camera and there is video footage. in the old days, that backroom was the place with no cameras. I think that changed in the lawsuit era.

I have actually seen the footage. It is pretty damning. It clearly shows a uniformed security officer shove me towards a chair at which I hit my arm on the desk as I landed. With or without legal action that guard should be terminated, although I won't hold my breath.

[kewlJ]

I think I have given all the details now, which wasn't really my intent. I really just wanted to remind people, fellow APs and even non-APs, of what we are up against, an opponent that cheats, lies, steals and even commits crimes. And while the environment is far better than it used to be, there are still some sleezebag criminal element left over. Be careful and just always know what you are dealing with.

[accountinquestion]

Why did you allow them to take you to the "back room?"

Isn't the correct play to simply head for the exit?

With due respect to your legal knowledge and expertise MrV, it isn't about "allowing" anything.

Here is the was it went down. I was requested to step away from the table. (not really a request). So I responded that I was just leaving anyway and gathers my chip. With players I have talked to that sometimes is enough to end this situation. It wasn't in this case. Next they tell you they are taking you to sign some documents. I responded telling them that this was an illegal detention and requesting to contact my attorney. This should be enough to let them know that you know the law and what the consequences will be if they continue with this illegal detention. At that point if they continue, they are knowingly breaking the law.

If you resist in any way, and a struggle ensues, they can claim you were creating a disturbance and a threat, so you don't want to do that.

I did everything textbook, just as I had always planned I would if the situation ever arose.

After I was released and exited the building, I called an ambulance from right there outside the front door. I didn't need an ambulance and could have driven myself, but I wanted the documentation of what had happened and where. At the hospital, I called the police who took a statement with injuries backed up by medical personél at the hospital.

The next morning, I called my attorney, and you know who he is, he is THE expert in these cases. He immediately put an order in for the casino to hold the video of the incident. We met the following day and discussed options, probably outcomes, timelines and what would be involved. One of the big problems for me, is this kind of case can't really be handled quietly. You really need to contact the media. It is almost like you are trying the case in the court of public opinion before it ever gets close to trail, with the hope of a settlement, which would not come until much later.

I thought about everything for a couple weeks now, and I just am not willing to go through all that and made my final decision over the weekend and informed my attorney. I think the money involved and the long timeline involved is not enough to offset the damage to my career and anonymity that I would incur.

sniff sniff what is that I smell.

How were you detained? They asked you to go to a backroom! you haven't explained why you just didn't leave which is the textbook thing to do. It is a horrible look if they try to hold onto you and if they do it is there on the camera.

"contact the media". You broke your arm and called an ambulance outside with footage inside of you being led away ! Broken arm = x-ray = solid proof.

I wouldn't be surprised though you don't sue simply because if what you says happens to be true then you need to hang on to this "I am a blackjack" player thing for your own self-image.

You also have footage of the backroom when they literally broke your arm !?!

[kewlJ]

sniff sniff what is that I smell.

How were you detained? They asked you to go to a backroom! you haven't explained why you just didn't leave which is the textbook thing to do. It is a horrible look if they try to hold onto you and if they do it is there on the camera.

"contact the media". You broke your arm and called an ambulance outside with footage inside of you being led away ! Broken arm = x-ray = solid proof.

I wouldn't be surprised though you don't sue simply because if what you says happens to be true then you need to hang on to this "I am a blackjack" player thing for your own self-image.

You also have footage of the backroom when they literally broke your arm !?!

I don't "have" the footage but have seen it. A copy was immediately sent to my attorney upon request which I viewed in his office on a computer.

More importantly, can't you ever stop acting like a dick and trolling? For God sake man!

[MisterV]

The only reason NOT to sue, I suppose, would be to try to keep your anonymity but in the days of OSN hasn't that ship sailed?

I suppose the sensible thing to do, given your current desire not to press it, would be to keep playing elsewhere as usual and see if they're now "on to you" and then decide whether to sue.

If they seem to know who you are and flat bet you then there'd be no down side to suing, but if not and if you can continue to card count as before then maybe they're not on to you.

Tough call.

[kewlJ]

The only reason NOT to sue, I suppose, would be to try to keep your anonymity but in the days of OSN hasn't that ship sailed?

I suppose the sensible thing to do, given your current desire not to press it, would be to keep playing elsewhere as usual and see if they're now "on to you" and then decide whether to sue.

If they seem to know who you are and flat bet you then there'd be no down side to suing, but if not and if you can continue to card count as before then maybe they're not on to you.

Tough call.

I played 4 nights over the last 2 weekends MrV.

An entry in one of the databases, even a pretty devastating one like my last one, 18 months ago, is not a death blow that some think. Unlike 30 years a go with the Griffin "book", this is not a book in the pit that they leaf through. It is a database on a computer in the pit. And only the most recent dozen or 15 entries are the real danger. Once new entries are added and your entry slides to the second and third "page" or screen, it becomes less devastating, as few pit folks look beyond the first page or two unless they are specifically looking for someone. BUT, I like to be extra cautious and give it several months to get buried. My last one I gave a full 6 months out of an abundance of caution.

The other thing to know about the database service is that most casinos subscribe, especially all the major casinos. But different casinos utilize the database differently and some not at all, even though they subscribe. And a surprisingly low number contribute, that is initiate an new entry. Most just "take".

If you are a serious player, the more of this kind of stuff you can know, the better. This is the kind of area that networking is valuable. People think networking is about sharing a good game. Rarely! Players keep that to themselves. But they will share this kind of information.

[kewlJ]

There is one other related danger area regarding the databases and that is that some pit critter, sees your entry and say "hey that guy plays here". That is when they might print out your entry, especially if a picture is involved and post it in the pit. That is sort of the modern version of the "flyering" on players using fax machines. I don't think it happens anywhere close to what it did back in the fax machine days, simply because if you look at the pit podium, you don't see a lot of printouts taped up like you would if this was a common occurrence.

Just an opinion: but I would say that the modern database system is less problematic to a player than the old methods of Griffin "book" and fax machine flyering. You just need a little time and most things resolve themselves.

[accountinquestion]

sniff sniff what is that I smell.

How were you detained? They asked you to go to a backroom! you haven't explained why you just didn't leave which is the textbook thing to do. It is a horrible look if they try to hold onto you and if they do it is there on the camera.

"contact the media". You broke your arm and called an ambulance outside with footage inside of you being led away ! Broken arm = x-ray = solid proof.

I wouldn't be surprised though you don't sue simply because if what you says happens to be true then you need to hang on to this "I am a blackjack" player thing for your own self-image.

You also have footage of the backroom when they literally broke your arm !?!

I don't "have" the footage but have seen it. A copy was immediately sent to my attorney upon request which I viewed in his office on a computer.

More importantly, can't you ever stop acting like a dick and trolling? For God sake man!

You have it if your attorney has it.

You still didn't answer how they illegally detained you. Or what you said that led up to the guy "throwing" you into the chair? You didn't resist at the table but you somehow resisted in the back room to the extent security broke your arm manhandling you?

I'm a troll. I really know 0 about AP stuff. Don't you know? Myself and others have piece by piece dismantled this forum until it is nothing but mean nasty sad old troll men.