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[dannyj]

California has pending legislation (SB 553) that prevents employers from requiring workers to confront active shooters or shoplifters. If the employee wants to do something, he may, but the store owner can't make it part of his job. However, the legislation does not cover store security, who are trained and hired to do what they do.

That security guy probably just realized that all he could do was put his finger in the dike and pray, as far as stopping the rush of goods flowing out the door, and gave up. Even if that older guy, the store manager or whoever he was, had grabbed hold of one of them, I doubt he would have been able to prevent the guy from escaping. Fear of going to prison makes even a skinny thief brave. I mean look at how flippant UNKewLyingJ got when cornered and confronted with his lies - the nervous poodle barked endlessly until he finally admitted just a small portion of his wrongs.

Yeah, it just seems to me, that if one is going to take a job as store security one should at least have an ounce of pride as to what and how much runs out the door under their watch. Not drag ass being the last one out.

I mean for fucks sake, throw a leg out and at least try to trip one of those motherfuckers up. Maybe he'd drop something that can be recovered. Maybe he'd go head first into the glass. At least that would be funny and a little payback.

Geez, we are doomed. Not by climate change or anything like that, rather, the pussification of this country in the 21st century.

[accountinquestion]

California has pending legislation (SB 553) that prevents employers from requiring workers to confront active shooters or shoplifters. If the employee wants to do something, he may, but the store owner can't make it part of his job. However, the legislation does not cover store security, who are trained and hired to do what they do.

That security guy probably just realized that all he could do was put his finger in the dike and pray, as far as stopping the rush of goods flowing out the door, and gave up. Even if that older guy, the store manager or whoever he was, had grabbed hold of one of them, I doubt he would have been able to prevent the guy from escaping. Fear of going to prison makes even a skinny thief brave. I mean look at how flippant UNKewLyingJ got when cornered and confronted with his lies - the nervous poodle barked endlessly until he finally admitted just a small portion of his wrongs.

Yeah, it just seems to me, that if one is going to take a job as store security one should at least have an ounce of pride as to what and how much runs out the door under their watch. Not drag ass being the last one out.

I mean for fucks sake, throw a leg out and at least try to trip one of those motherfuckers up. Maybe he'd drop something that can be recovered. Maybe he'd go head first into the glass. At least that would be funny and a little payback.

Geez, we are doomed. Not by climate change or anything like that, rather, the pussification of this country in the 21st century.

lol wonder if he even gets health insurance. Probably so because I doubt they can make him a contractor.

It is funny though. People thinking these lowly paid security guards should risk themselves when they're probably told to not even do it.

Yea, man show some pride in defending some purse that costs 3 months of your salary, boy. Show some pride, boy. Wealthy people can't be paying more for these purses. They need to show they are far more wealthy than you, boy.

Love it.

That being said I enjoy that seeing that black dude getting thwacked. I'm a sicko I guess but I'd done it some more defending myself against an armed man. Don't think he'll learn much from that beating. He whined and cried a lot but he was able to walk out on his own.

[Mission146]

Honestly, I'd have to know what all of the laws are out there.

Personally, I'd be a terrible security guard because I'd just see it as an excuse to kick the shit out of someone if they were shoplifting. At a minimum, future thieves would be saying to each other, "Don't be the guy who gets caught."

Unless I couldn't, of course. There's a lot that can depend on various laws, such as using a, 'Reasonable amount of force.' The whole thing is intricate enough that you have to be really careful lest your location (or even you, personally) become the target of a civil suit...even a criminal suit if you are the employee. Here's a brief overview of shopkeeper's privilege:

https://makemeclever.com/shopkeepers...-business-law/

Let's take it point by point:

1.) Detention of suspected shoplifters: Shopkeepers have the right to detain an individual if they have reasonable grounds to believe that the person has engaged in or attempted to commit theft or shoplifting on their premises. The purpose of detention is to allow the shopkeeper to investigate the situation and protect their property.

Our first item already creates a potential problem for the business, vis-a-vis potential for civil suit. Perhaps one of our resident attorneys will correct me if I'm wrong, but immediately, it occurs to me that one can subject oneself to potential civil liability based on whether or not the shopkeeper is adjudicated to have had, 'Reasonable grounds.' Just that wouldn't be enough for a civil suit, I don't think, but could depend on other particulars such as...did you make physical contact with the individual, did you physically restrain the individual, did you prevent the individual from leaving for an unreasonable period of time, etc...

2. Reasonable suspicion: The shopkeeper’s privilege is based on the concept of reasonable suspicion. This means that the shopkeeper must have a genuine belief, based on objective facts and circumstances, that the individual has committed or is about to commit theft or shoplifting. Mere hunches or discriminatory profiling are not sufficient grounds for detention.

This is basically the same as above, with the added caveat that, if you are adjudicated NOT to have had reasonable suspicion (in the event of a lawsuit) now you might have committed a hate crime if it is determined that you aggressed and/or restrained an individual based on racial (or other) profiling.

3. Reasonable force and duration: While exercising the shopkeeper’s privilege, store owners or employees are generally allowed to use reasonable force to detain the suspected shoplifter. However, the level of force used must be proportionate to the circumstances, and excessive force is not permissible. The detention should also be for a reasonable duration and should not extend beyond what is necessary to investigate the situation or involve the appropriate authorities.

What are reasonable force and reasonable duration? Perhaps some jurisdictions quantify duration, but, 'Reasonable force,' is defined here as:

https://www.lawinsider.com/clause/the-officer

Reasonable force means that force which is objectively reasonable under the circumstances and the minimum amount of force necessary to effect an arrest or protect the officer or other person.

First of all, what could, "Objectively reasonable," even fucking mean? There is no objectively reasonable. Anyone looking at the level of force used would be determining whether or not it was too much based on their subjective analysis of the event in question.

4. Contacting law enforcement: If a shopkeeper detains a suspected shoplifter, they typically have the right to contact law enforcement authorities and turn the individual over to them. The decision to involve the police may depend on local laws and store policies.

What does it mean, 'The decision to contact police may depend on local laws?' Are there places where you're literally not even allowed to contact police? I do understand local laws. Many jurisdictions have a minimum amount that the shoplifting, or attempted shoplifting, has to be in order for police to be willing to do anything about it. California's is just ridiculously high.

5. Protection from legal liability: The shopkeeper’s privilege provides some legal protection to store owners or employees against claims of false imprisonment or assault when acting in good faith and within the boundaries of reasonable suspicion and force. However, it is important for shopkeepers to act responsibly and in accordance with applicable laws to avoid any unnecessary legal complications.

True; however, this would only apply if you were determined to have been acting in good faith and with reasonable suspicion...which both remain subjective.

In addition to the potential for civil lawsuit, the individual using the force...if said force is determined to be unreasonable (read: more than necessary) could also be criminally charged with assault and/or battery.

The other problem is...I'm sure all of you have seen mall stores. They aren't THAT big. This is also in California, so I'm sure that they are going to have a very loose definition of what, 'Profiling,' means. Of course, people generally shouldn't profile based on race...and had that never happened...there wouldn't need to be laws against it, so this is what you end up with.

What do we see?

1.) Group of black guys.

-Profiling. Insufficient.

2.) Who look like they have no real intent (how dressed) to buy anything from Gucci.

-Still profiling.

3.) Wearing hoodies to partially obscure themselves. In the Summer. In California.

-I would say that this is sufficient to create suspicion in some states and you could ask them to leave the store (assuming the Gucci store didn't) based on that alone, or to uncover themselves, but I doubt California is one of those states.

-In California, this would probably still be seen as profiling.

4.) I can't find anything on whether the whole event transpired quickly or they picked items off the shelf casually...my guess is the former (less opportunity to get your face on camera). If the latter, then you still have a profiling situation if you try to act too early as the law might ask, "How could you be sure they weren't buying those items?"

Anyway, fuck Gucci. I think it's kind of funny, but still don't condone it. Still, it's better than cleaning out a drug store or a convenience store thereby necessitating that those losses be made up by charging normal common people more.

In any event, dealing with shoplifters is always a sticky thing. I've only had to get into two physical altercations in the context of a job...the first led to me being transferred to a different task because I transferred a guy to the hospital (even though it was in physically defending the other security officer) and the other was one occasion at the hotel where I was determined (by police, anyway) to have used reasonable force to protect a woman. I'm pleased that the second of those didn't even make the paper...I'd never have heard the end of it.

[Mission146]

I guess another thing is you don't know whether or not they are armed.

On top of that, even if you did try to trip one up, or take him out, you might have just signed up (though doubtful) for a 9-on-1 beatdown.

[tableplay]

[accountinquestion]

Honestly, I'd have to know what all of the laws are out there.

Personally, I'd be a terrible security guard because I'd just see it as an excuse to kick the shit out of someone if they were shoplifting. At a minimum, future thieves would be saying to each other, "Don't be the guy who gets caught."

Unless I couldn't, of course. There's a lot that can depend on various laws, such as using a, 'Reasonable amount of force.' The whole thing is intricate enough that you have to be really careful lest your location (or even you, personally) become the target of a civil suit...even a criminal suit if you are the employee. Here's a brief overview of shopkeeper's privilege:

https://makemeclever.com/shopkeepers...-business-law/

Let's take it point by point:



Our first item already creates a potential problem for the business, vis-a-vis potential for civil suit. Perhaps one of our resident attorneys will correct me if I'm wrong, but immediately, it occurs to me that one can subject oneself to potential civil liability based on whether or not the shopkeeper is adjudicated to have had, 'Reasonable grounds.' Just that wouldn't be enough for a civil suit, I don't think, but could depend on other particulars such as...did you make physical contact with the individual, did you physically restrain the individual, did you prevent the individual from leaving for an unreasonable period of time, etc...



This is basically the same as above, with the added caveat that, if you are adjudicated NOT to have had reasonable suspicion (in the event of a lawsuit) now you might have committed a hate crime if it is determined that you aggressed and/or restrained an individual based on racial (or other) profiling.

3. Reasonable force and duration: While exercising the shopkeeper’s privilege, store owners or employees are generally allowed to use reasonable force to detain the suspected shoplifter. However, the level of force used must be proportionate to the circumstances, and excessive force is not permissible. The detention should also be for a reasonable duration and should not extend beyond what is necessary to investigate the situation or involve the appropriate authorities.

What are reasonable force and reasonable duration? Perhaps some jurisdictions quantify duration, but, 'Reasonable force,' is defined here as:

https://www.lawinsider.com/clause/the-officer

Reasonable force means that force which is objectively reasonable under the circumstances and the minimum amount of force necessary to effect an arrest or protect the officer or other person.

First of all, what could, "Objectively reasonable," even fucking mean? There is no objectively reasonable. Anyone looking at the level of force used would be determining whether or not it was too much based on their subjective analysis of the event in question.

Wonder if this pertains to Kewl? Would a casino be considered a store? When they broke his arm could it still be "reasonable force and duration" ? If Kewls bones are just that brittle then perhaps?

Kewl? Do you know if your lawyer went over these laws? Maybe a counter could be considered a theft.

[jbjb]

Look motherfucker, quit stealing my nickel vulture pictures!

[tableplay]

Look motherfucker, quit stealing my nickel vulture pictures!

If I didn't steal them, then someone else would. Might as well be a VCT member.

[tableplay]

[Gottlob1]

Matthew 5:5 is the fifth verse of the fifth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament. It is the third verse of the Sermon on the Mount, and also the third of what are known as the Beatitudes.

Gotta love that 55. And, the double 3's. Ha.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

---> Beastly Tales from Here and There.

https://anagram-solver.net/Blessed%2....?partial=true


As in "the Mikki".

Mikki Mase shares his secret to winning and exposes cheaters ...

---> Other concepts in the Ender's Game series.

https://anagram-solver.net/mikki%20m...s?partial=true


So, in short, who the heck has to buy the forum to essentially take over?


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[tableplay]

[MDawg]

That Century City mall has been hit in different ways. Back when the Rolex stores used to carry actual stock, someone asked to see a Rolex and ran with two of them.
Rolex thief runs off w/ 2 watches from Century City shop
The 2012 Rolex theft was a robbery (he forced one of the Rolexes from the clerk's hand), but no guns involved. You'd think that the fact that the thieves have to pull into a parking lot where tickets have to be used to exit would deter them, and that they'd pick a mall with outdoor parking (and they do), but Century City remains a target.

There have also been armed robberies in this mall.
2 men armed with assault rifles rob Rolex store at Century City Mall

THESE GUYS ALLEGEDLY STOLE $6 MILLION WORTH OF ROLEXES AND OTHER WATCHES

And if you want to read a pretty vivid description of the 2015, armed robbery:
The Time Bandits of Southern California
On a quiet Monday around noon, two men dressed in black stepped onto an ascending escalator in the underground parking lot of an open-air mall in Century City in Los Angeles. By the time they had reached the top, they'd pulled on ski masks and they were sprinting.

“They're coming, they're coming!” yelled Damian Dupre, a security guard at a Gearys luxury-watch boutique, when he saw the men running toward the store. Dupre is a solid six feet three inches, but as he rushed to lock the front door, the men were already pushing their way in. The first intruder, a short, stocky man carrying a rifle, burst in and his gun went off, shattering a glass case. “Get on the ground!” he yelled, and the guard and three other Gearys employees dropped to the floor. “Hurry up!” the man shouted to his partner. “We got to go!”

Another flash mob smash and grab this weekend, although it was more of just a grab, no smash.

Smash-and-grab mob targets Nordstrom store in Canoga Park in brazen daytime raid

A smash-and-grab flash mob stormed into the Nordstrom store in Canoga Park on Saturday afternoon, grabbed merchandise and ran out.

An estimated 30 to 50 people participated in the brazen daytime robbery at the Westfield Topanga Shopping Center shortly after 4 p.m., according to the Los Angeles Police Department.

Police said the dozens of suspects included both males and females and said they used bear spray and left in sedans whose license plates had been removed. Police estimated losses to be between $60,000 and $100,000.

A similar incident took place Aug. 8 at an Yves Saint Laurent store at the Americana at Brand in Glendale when 30 to 40 people stormed the store, getting away in about 20 vehicles with about $300,000 worth of merchandise. The Glendale Police Department is investigating.

You have to wonder how little each one of these participants is being paid. Let's say 40 grabbers, they get say $80K retail in merchandise. They'll be lucky to dump it for fifty cents on the dollar, or say $40K. Then if each one is paid say $500. for the job, that's $20K, leaving a profit of $20K for the kingpin or kingpins. They can't be paying each one a grand, because that would eat up all the profit, so something more like $500. seems plausible. Who knows, maybe the ones with cars are getting a little more and the ones without getting even less, but the average can't be much above $500.

So these people are risking at minimum a felony organized retail theft charge, and grand theft, because it's not just simple shoplifting to pull something like this, and in some cases such as this (because of the use of bear spray), a full on robbery charge, for basically a bowl of cold porridge. But there seems to be no shortage of volunteers.

[MaxPen]

This kind of stuff could be ended overnight. The FBI could round them up and use the RICO laws to end it. Not going to happen though. It's serving a purpose for now.

[tableplay]

Governor Newsom has assigned a crack clean up crew to get rid of old inventory at various stores throughout the state as part of his waste disposal program. These guys are really efficient and should get some sort of commendation from the state for their amazing efforts in communities throughout the state.

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1690758053409210368

[MDawg]

The criticism people have is that California is not tough on crime. The fact is that California, and many other states, have gotten less tough only on non-violent crime.

And California's shoplifting law that makes it a misdemeanor applies only to non-violent shoplifting under $950.

So these people are risking at minimum a felony organized retail theft charge, and grand theft, because it's not just simple shoplifting to pull something like this, and in some cases such as this (because of the use of bear spray), a full on robbery charge

The guys stealing little things here and there, still go to jail but for a few months at a time maximum. The organized retail theft smash and grabbers do go to prison.

Locking someone up for life for stealing a loaf of bread is so Jean Valjean.

[MDawg]

Nevada for example isn't considered a particularly liberal state, and the threshold for misdemeanor theft is $1200. there, even higher than California's. And if you look at arrests for non violent crime in Clark County, they are letting people go with No Bills / Nol. Pros. all the time.

At least in Los Angeles they put the low level offenders into Diversion, they don't just let them all go with no filed case at all.

[Gottlob1]

The true crime is marking that stuff up a 100X's, and, then, brainwashing the population to think that they have to have it.

[Don Perignom]

The true crime is marking that stuff up a 100X's, and, then, brainwashing the population to think that they have to have it.

So you would allow advertising, but not if it's effective.

There won't be enough hours in the day for Ryan Reynolds.

[Gottlob1]

I don't have anything against ads that aren't misleading, or arm-twisting and in-your-face. The subliminal stuff was debunked back in the 70's(?). Likely, it's more a matter of education for the next generations. About where exactly all of that useless crap comes from, who profits, how, and, in general, about the long-run futility of trying to move the economy ahead. Any thus engineer will tell you that the CRT delivered the best color quality. But, after they perfected them, for next to nothing, along came the $3000 LED, plasma, or whatever, stuff. And, we don't need better cars, but, far fewer of them, however.

[Mission146]

That Century City mall has been hit in different ways. Back when the Rolex stores used to carry actual stock, someone asked to see a Rolex and ran with two of them.
Rolex thief runs off w/ 2 watches from Century City shop
The 2012 Rolex theft was a robbery (he forced one of the Rolexes from the clerk's hand), but no guns involved. You'd think that the fact that the thieves have to pull into a parking lot where tickets have to be used to exit would deter them, and that they'd pick a mall with outdoor parking (and they do), but Century City remains a target.

There have also been armed robberies in this mall.
2 men armed with assault rifles rob Rolex store at Century City Mall

THESE GUYS ALLEGEDLY STOLE $6 MILLION WORTH OF ROLEXES AND OTHER WATCHES

And if you want to read a pretty vivid description of the 2015, armed robbery:
The Time Bandits of Southern California
On a quiet Monday around noon, two men dressed in black stepped onto an ascending escalator in the underground parking lot of an open-air mall in Century City in Los Angeles. By the time they had reached the top, they'd pulled on ski masks and they were sprinting.

“They're coming, they're coming!” yelled Damian Dupre, a security guard at a Gearys luxury-watch boutique, when he saw the men running toward the store. Dupre is a solid six feet three inches, but as he rushed to lock the front door, the men were already pushing their way in. The first intruder, a short, stocky man carrying a rifle, burst in and his gun went off, shattering a glass case. “Get on the ground!” he yelled, and the guard and three other Gearys employees dropped to the floor. “Hurry up!” the man shouted to his partner. “We got to go!”

Another flash mob smash and grab this weekend, although it was more of just a grab, no smash.

Smash-and-grab mob targets Nordstrom store in Canoga Park in brazen daytime raid

A smash-and-grab flash mob stormed into the Nordstrom store in Canoga Park on Saturday afternoon, grabbed merchandise and ran out.

An estimated 30 to 50 people participated in the brazen daytime robbery at the Westfield Topanga Shopping Center shortly after 4 p.m., according to the Los Angeles Police Department.

Police said the dozens of suspects included both males and females and said they used bear spray and left in sedans whose license plates had been removed. Police estimated losses to be between $60,000 and $100,000.

A similar incident took place Aug. 8 at an Yves Saint Laurent store at the Americana at Brand in Glendale when 30 to 40 people stormed the store, getting away in about 20 vehicles with about $300,000 worth of merchandise. The Glendale Police Department is investigating.

You have to wonder how little each one of these participants is being paid. Let's say 40 grabbers, they get say $80K retail in merchandise. They'll be lucky to dump it for fifty cents on the dollar, or say $40K. Then if each one is paid say $500. for the job, that's $20K, leaving a profit of $20K for the kingpin or kingpins. They can't be paying each one a grand, because that would eat up all the profit, so something more like $500. seems plausible. Who knows, maybe the ones with cars are getting a little more and the ones without getting even less, but the average can't be much above $500.

So these people are risking at minimum a felony organized retail theft charge, and grand theft, because it's not just simple shoplifting to pull something like this, and in some cases such as this (because of the use of bear spray), a full on robbery charge, for basically a bowl of cold porridge. But there seems to be no shortage of volunteers.

I can't imagine they'd be getting fifty cents on the dollar because the fence is still trying to sell it as used and make some sort of profit. What are you going to do? Go house to house?

There's almost no way it's happening, but wouldn't it be terrific if they were Robin Hooding the shit and just removing the tags and spreading it around Goodwill and Salvation Army overnight boxes?