shuffle machines

[Rob.Singer]

C'mon, be nice to kew. He's struggling to get his mojo back. His strategy of just throwing stories out there peppered with just a few pieces of bullshit, is how he aims to get his long-winded posts back in the saddle. And it IS always just about him, and he and his silly denials only serve to confirm that.

Being the worst forum addict who cannot stop posting nonsense even after having to carry the label of "permanent fraud" forever....the insecure phony continues to crave attention. I personally would rather hear him go on with more about greasing up a surfboard or a trip to the east coast featuring the famous baby bro. This shuffler baloney has already discredited him and his concocted "bj for profit" fairy tale. Now he comes back for more.

Bartender, shut the fool down.

[redietz]

Might be possible with this particular type of single deck machine. I think the simplicity of having just 1 card / slot is part of why. Still, the programmers themselves did not do it, just said it could be done. They only got as far (supposedly anyway) as using the machine's own camera to be able to see the order of the cards, not change them.

As far as a multi deck shuffler, different animal I assume.

In any case, this article doesn't make you other than still a liar with regards to the shuffling machine dispute you have or had ongoing with AccountInQuestion and the others. And that's why you brought it up, no?

I am not known for reading things closely and thoroughly but I didn't get that they accessed the cameras. Really that doesn't make sense unless the machines were made to stream video off the usb port but lets just agree that isn't possible. That is as likely as Kewl hiring a guy to crack it at all - let alone 15 minutes.

If that feature was not built-in (camera->usb) then they would have to change something in the code itself which they didn't do.

"I am not known for reading things closely and thoroughly." LOL. 'Nuff said.

Here's my issue with account on this topic. I am going to have lunch with a bunch of academics tomorrow who have some interest in this. They have seen this video and read some reports on the subject. They have some security and programming experience among them. Now, obviously, I don't know a damned thing about shuffle machines. One close friend of mine, however, has some casino managerial experience and can report on the history he's seen and how some abuses of the machines evaded security. There was actually a story involving the LV Hilton years ago regarding this very topic. So this person, who will be at the lunch, will know much, much more than me. But this person is still not an expert and is reporting some second-hand info.

Back to my problem with account. I would love to report what he's written here as if it has some expertise and gravitas behind it. But the only thing I'm expert in is sports betting, and account has declared (not just suggested) some really naive and uninformed stuff that profiles him as not knowing a goddamn thing about sports betting. The issue, to put it bluntly, is that he poses as if he knows what he's talking about. And it doesn't matter what the topic is. The only subject, unfortunately, at which I can evaluate what he says...he really is clueless. He's off badly on basic premises and knows zero about widely known history or what's been done for the last 30 years. I mean, really, account would be kicked out of any serious sports gambling tete-a-tete.

So who is more right on this -- account or kewlJ? I am not qualified to judge, but if you put a gun to my head, I'd have to pass on the guy who doesn't read things "carefully or thoroughly." That kind of slop-admittance won't fly at lunch tomorrow.

So of what value is what account says regarding this? I have no idea. This entire forum is a clown act in terms of figuring out who actually knows what they are talking about. But if anyone wants to fly in and add two cents worth, expert or not -- lunch will be Wok and Hibachi in Johnson City, TN tomorrow at noon. Be there or be square.

[MDawg]

AccountInQuestion the video is worthless. However the article states that the programmers claim that they accessed the camera from that USB port and were able to then know what cards would come out.

You are right that as far as anything else beyond this camera access, with regards to either the Deckmate 1 or 2, they simply state that it COULD be done, but did not do it.

The strange thing is though, even with regards to that access to camera claim, if you look online including at that article it is very strangely reported - the article states that the team "will present the results" later today "at the Black Hat security conference in Las Vegas." I haven't found any direct account of what exactly was presented, not will be presented.


And in any case what they did took some luck - when they bought the testing machines they were GIVEN the password to access (for maintenance and update purposes) - and a lot of time, under laboratory conditions. And even then all they were able to access (supposedly) is the camera, there was no further hacking done.

And, even if you read closely what they CLAIM they SHOULD be able to do, with regards to the Deckmate 1, they claim that it could be reprogrammed, if someone could get physically into the chip, to say, reorder the cards or not shuffle the cards at all. But they never even try to do that, just say it could be done.


Anyway, I'll admit that the reason I wasted the time on this is to see if what UNKewlJ was saying on the first post of this thread was true about that you do not even need a programmer or backed up his claim of being able to hack his own shuffling machine in a few minutes - it was not true a whole team of programmers was needed / did not back up his claim - all this took a lot of luck (had the password) and time (under laboratory conditions) and resulted in camera access only.

[accountinquestion]

Might be possible with this particular type of single deck machine. I think the simplicity of having just 1 card / slot is part of why. Still, the programmers themselves did not do it, just said it could be done. They only got as far (supposedly anyway) as using the machine's own camera to be able to see the order of the cards, not change them.

As far as a multi deck shuffler, different animal I assume.

In any case, this article doesn't make you other than still a liar with regards to the shuffling machine dispute you have or had ongoing with AccountInQuestion and the others. And that's why you brought it up, no?

I am not known for reading things closely and thoroughly but I didn't get that they accessed the cameras. Really that doesn't make sense unless the machines were made to stream video off the usb port but lets just agree that isn't possible. That is as likely as Kewl hiring a guy to crack it at all - let alone 15 minutes.

If that feature was not built-in (camera->usb) then they would have to change something in the code itself which they didn't do.

"I am not known for reading things closely and thoroughly." LOL. 'Nuff said.

Here's my issue with account on this topic. I am going to have lunch with a bunch of academics tomorrow who have some interest in this. They have seen this video and read some reports on the subject. They have some security and programming experience among them. Now, obviously, I don't know a damned thing about shuffle machines. One close friend of mine, however, has some casino managerial experience and can report on the history he's seen and how some abuses of the machines evaded security. There was actually a story involving the LV Hilton years ago regarding this very topic. So this person, who will be at the lunch, will know much, much more than me. But this person is still not an expert and is reporting some second-hand info.

Back to my problem with account. I would love to report what he's written here as if it has some expertise and gravitas behind it. But the only thing I'm expert in is sports betting, and account has declared (not just suggested) some really naive and uninformed stuff that profiles him as not knowing a goddamn thing about sports betting. The issue, to put it bluntly, is that he poses as if he knows what he's talking about. And it doesn't matter what the topic is. The only subject, unfortunately, at which I can evaluate what he says...he really is clueless. He's off badly on basic premises and knows zero about widely known history or what's been done for the last 30 years. I mean, really, account would be kicked out of any serious sports gambling tete-a-tete.

So who is more right on this -- account or kewlJ? I am not qualified to judge, but if you put a gun to my head, I'd have to pass on the guy who doesn't read things "carefully or thoroughly." That kind of slop-admittance won't fly at lunch tomorrow.

So of what value is what account says regarding this? I have no idea. This entire forum is a clown act in terms of figuring out who actually knows what they are talking about. But if anyone wants to fly in and add two cents worth, expert or not -- lunch will be Wok and Hibachi in Johnson City, TN tomorrow at noon. Be there or be square.

In all this not once does Redietz say where I claim to be an expert or where I would need to be an expert. He doesn't even once say what he actually disagrees with or finds questionable. If he wants to believe Kewl then he should feel free.

This is your basic Redietz post. Drop by, lob a few rocks, run off which is effectively refusing to further substantial discussion.

It is true I don't read everything in depth. This is the outcome of not reading everything thoroughly. I take in massive amounts of info daily. Something Redietz doesn't do. He is still scratching his ass reading obscure stuff about college football to continue with his delusional fantasies that he is some sort of player in the sports betting world. I've never called myself a pro-gambler outside of poker. It is just a hobby of mine although I suppose that isn't exactly correct.

Again - Not at one point above does Redietz say what I might be wrong about.

My story about the rigged shufflers has nothing to do with a regulated casino environment. Seems like Redietz is jealous because I am suggesting a story without telling it. This is his same ol bullshit of bullshitters where he is jealous because he suspects I might be bullshitting because that is his world. This is how all these story tellers are and how they inevitably wind themselves up. This is why Kewl fixated on Singer and Mdawg. Jealous of their stories outshining his.

Except I didn't even tell a story. Just a reference to a series of shufflers that were in use that I have a very strong suspicion had been modified. My story can actually be collaborated to some degree though. The cheating aspect was a known thing but no one knows how it happened. I have a strong suspicion.

Maybe Redietz is saying I don't know what I'm talking about in regards to what is hackable and what isn't. It is common sense. The machine doesn't rely on alien technology. The mechanics of the machine are novel but the controllers and logic won't be that novel. I have friends who could likely do it but not entirely sure. Often it is a matter of time. Give them a year and it is 100%. Give them a month and it'd be very iffy. They've literally made lottery ticket scratcher/scanners for guys who are running lottery ticket hustles. This btw has nothing to do with my gambling circles/friends.

Feel free to believe Kewl though lol. You're on top of it all, Redietz. What a winner. Thats why you can't put up 1k for a silly pick'em contest for fun even after your chest thumping about beating these handicappers in nonsensical contests means so much otherwise. You know the contest wouldn't mean shit and secondly you know there is a very very good chance I'd beat you. I'd strongly argue I'm a favorite in any of these contests using the suggested coin-flip picking methodology we've both claimed. Putting up 1k for a contest where he is the dog is not just something he knows to be a bad idea - it is also likely something he simply can't afford.

Anyway, since Redietz wants to get back into this. I found this inspiring. This is Kewl's take on Redietz from GF and what i was referencing about him being nice to Redietz.

So you aren't innocent, nor the saint you pretend to be, you judgmental bald prick.

And your whole rant about anonymity and why people should post using their real name....what did that get you? people could look up and see that the great handicapper of 45 years couldn't even pay a $500 tax bill.

I don't doubt and never doubted that you have been successful in the sports handicapping areana for many years. I still don't doubt that. But like most people, you have proven to be less than honest. I think you 'tout' contests you are doing well in while not mentioned ones you are currently doing bad. Cherry-picking for whatever reason, to make yourself look good. Shades of Mgwg only posting about his winning sessions, but rarely mentioning all the losing that HAS to be taking place for casinos to tolerate his play.

PS - who uses "tete-a-tete" in conversation? What a fucking goofball. And again he'll never address my points. lol EVER EVER EVER.

[accountinquestion]

It is funny how Redietz posts about some academics and how they have seen the video.

Wait .. what? Some obscure video on the internet that says nothing? They happen to have seen it?

Or did Redietz send the link to them this morning and they all saw it and had a discussion?



What is the background of these "academics" for this to happen?


Anyway - to address Mdawg. Yes, ok I reread it and the article does say they accessed the camera. That is very interesting. I'd guess the camera shares the USB bus which they are tapping into. Either that or they took full control of the machine and rewrote the code to pull the video data and stream it out the usb port. To do the latter means they should also be able to control the cards which the article also says they couldn't.

So best case is they still didn't do what Kewl did in 15 minutes.

Mdawg, these presentations are often kept secret or atleast the actual demonstration. A friend of mine used to go to defcon regularly and it isn't that rare for them to have some security in place to try and thin out who sees the actual goods. A lot of it is to avoid being sued I guess. That might be the case here. I'm not sure if the Wired article's author was there or not or how the reporting came about.

[kewlJ]

I shouldn't even bother with this, but it sounds like what this "team" was attempting to do was very different from what I wanted to see if the machine could do.

I wanted to see if the machine I had at the time could be make to deal the cards in patterns like I had witnessed at the particular casino mentioned as I played and watched over 100 sessions.

Now first about what AinQ is calling the "password". I call it a code. Others call it a key, which is confusing because we are not talking about a physical key, but rather a code or password. The code/key/password for the machine I had was 6 digits. I can't swear that the code/key was 6 digits when I witnessed the pit guy "Angel" punch it in at East Cannery, but that seems about right. Just by memory it seemed more than 4 digits. I just didn't pay much attention. I was more concerned what happened AFTER he punched in the key that the key itself.

I had this code/password when I purchased the machine that I had. You needed the code/key to get to any function, like putting the cards back in sequential order. But the code/key came with the machine I purchased. So I didn't need to break that code or key, as the "team" apparently had to do and couldn't. This kind of stuff is way over my head. I have trouble setting up my new phones. But if a "team" of hackers couldn't figure the code/key, that is surprising to me. That is like they couldn't even get in the door to do what they really wanted to do. (at least by my way of thinking).

Also there was no USB port on the machine I had. I only had it for about a week before I sold it to another AP. All I wanted was to see if the machine could be made to deal in a sequence that clumped the cards like I had witnessed in 2 casinos. With the help of the guy I was directed to and paid for his time, the machine was able to do this after just a few minutes. That was 100% because of the guy, who I have always referred to as a programmer, but I guess you could call him a hacker. He knew exactly what I wanted the machine to be able to do and made it do so, and in just a few minutes.

Now these hackers talked about in the video and article were not trying to make the machine clump cards in the manner I was looking for. They wanted to hack into the program to enable them to cheat. If they had figured out how to do that in a laboratory of home setting, how where they going to be able to duplicate that at the casino? They were just going to physically start pushing buttons on a machine in the casino?

So that they couldn't do what they were trying to do, while it surprises me, it is very different than what my goal was to see what the machine was 'capable' of, specifically if it could arrange the cards in a clumping manner that I had witnessed in two different casinos settings a couple years apart.

Now one other thing I want to say. Someone asked why the casino would be punching in the password/code/key and changing to clumping mode, rather than set it to that once and leave it. I only saw the code punched in at the first casino, East Cannery. I never saw it punched in at the second who I am not going to mention by name, just to be sure I am not sued. I have mentioned the name before, so everyone should know. I never saw someone punch in the code/key to put that machine in any mode at that second location. So maybe they kept it in that mode all the time. Off the top of my head, I would say that is correct, simply because as I was tracking over 100 sessions, some of which I didn't play, sometimes I would walk in and just watch, so they definitely weren't doing it for my benefit or only when I played. That is also evident because there were a team of AP that were playing during that same timeframe. So I think I can safely conclude they left the machine in this clumping mode.

So why the difference between them and the first place where I witnessed the pit guy "Angel" punch in the code a number of times? I don't know the answer. Maybe they didn't keep the machine in that mode, for fear of someone from gaming or somewhere coming in and finding it like that. Maybe they put the machine in that mode shortly after opening that table every day, which was mid afternoon 3pm or 4pm and I just happened to witness it because I often timed my visit there to the opening of that table. Maybe at midnight or whenever they closed that table they put it back in regular mode for protection. Again, I don't know. This is pure speculation. All I can tell you for sure is I began to notice unusually bad results and clumping patterns after Angel punched in the code or key. And it was always angel. I never saw anyone else do this. Of course he was the pit guy on at that afternoon time and it was a small casinos with one pit.

Again, I will say that the machine I had, did not have a USB port like described. I only had it a week, but I examined the machine pretty good. Once you took the outer cover off, was there a USB port inside that you wouldn't see with the cover on? Maybe. I have no idea. Maybe this was one of the differences in early and later models? I have no idea.

And finally hackers or bad guys being able to access through an outside cell phone? That doesn't sound realistic to me, but what do I know. That sounds like something from the movies. But sometimes things you see in movies turn out that they are able to do that kind of thing years later, so I don't know. This kind of stuff is way, way past my understanding.

If AinQ is a programmer or hacker or expert in this field, I defer to him. But it does seem odd to me that he is so sure what these machines can and can't do, when to my knowledge he has never had his hands on one. Maybe I am wrong about that. Maybe he works or worked for the manufacturer, but he has never revealed this.

Anyway, for me it all comes down to one thing: These machines have this capability, whether or not any casino or rogue pit person has ever used it or not. Whether or not the casinos I believe have used it or not. They have this capability and players should keep that in the back of their mind and be vigilant to anything unusual. That is all I ever really wanted to warn about. And somehow I am the bad guy for that.

[accountinquestion]

Kewl, their goal was the same they just couldn't get there after a serious try (not 15 minutes). If you can make it do ANYTHING as far as controlling the cards then you could make it "clump" the cards. That is just simple logic done in code.

I'm not going to dissect the inconsistencies in all this. I've posted far too much because it does interest me. I'm also offended because I actually believed this lie and repeated it.

You may want to gloss over the difference in a code and a password but the 2 are very very different. To a layperson you might think "code that lets you access things you otherwise couldn't". There are just so many inconsistencies here. I'm not a good writer and it takes me too long to convey my thoughts. If they had the same code as you then surely they'd been able to find these cheat modes but it just doesn't exist.

I'm saying the capability of the hardware is such that yes it could definitely be modified to do whatever. This is common sense.

I don't believe there is a magic cheat-code (much like a video game) that enables anything like you suggest. I very very strongly believe such a thing doesn't exist and nothing outside of Kewl's claims have given any credibility to such a thing existing.

You can turn an ICE car into a EV (LOL) but that doesn't mean it is done via simple switch. It takes a lot of expertise and engineering. Much like this. You have to rip out the guts of the ICE car for starters and replace it.

Your claim is analogous to the automakers putting in a switch for electric mode and then not telling anyone. (Not the best analogy)

These 2 things are vastly different.

I wouldn't dog you so hard if you weren't sticking behind your absurd story of your guy hacking it in 15 minutes. Have a discussion about shufflers - sure. Don't bring up your bullshit story again. It is offensive.

[kewlJ]

One other thing. I am NOT the only AP to have witnessed these odd things and know for sure what is occurring. I have said before, for a player who plays a lot and I used to be that kind of player. I play less now at more select times, but used to be that grinder type that played 80,000 rounds a year. So a player that plays a lot, will just be able to feel or sense when something is not right. When results are not right, ect. The will KNOW something is "off" long before they begin to suspect or figure out what it could be.

Proof that I am not the only Player to have seen and witnessed this is the group of AP's that were playing this game and pissed at me when I revealed what I revealed.

So the difference is that I see something and my immediate reaction is that I want to warn other players. Other AP's figure the same thing out and say, how can we flip this to our advantage. I guess I just don't think like that. I am a bad or weak AP and am not thinking in that AP mode all the time as most are.

[accountinquestion]

One other thing. I am NOT the only AP to have witnessed these odd things and know for sure what is occurring. I have said before, for a player who plays a lot and I used to be that kind of player. I play less now at more select times, but used to be that grinder type that played 80,000 rounds a year. So a player that plays a lot, will just be able to feel or sense when something is not right. When results are not right, ect. The will KNOW something is "off" long before they begin to suspect or figure out what it could be.

Proof that I am not the only Player to have seen and witnessed this is the group of AP's that were playing this game and pissed at me when I revealed what I revealed.

So the difference is that I see something and my immediate reaction is that I want to warn other players. Other AP's figure the same thing out and say, how can we flip this to our advantage. I guess I just don't think like that. I am a bad or weak AP and am not thinking in that AP mode all the time as most are.

lol. Yea, those anonymous APs. How many times do these guys make an appearance in your stories to lend it credibility?

Since they contacted you on the forums and are likely anonymous themselves then surely you could have just told us who it was that reached out. What would they lose?

People witness all sorts of things. Lets look at Zenking for an example. It really means so little. The convergence of luck, many trials, and human psychology basically guarantee people will come up with theories to explain their running bad.

[Gottlob1]

What a bunch of useless typing. Walls of it.

[accountinquestion]

What a bunch of useless typing. Walls of it.

Says the guy who gets responses from multiple people on the regular that his posts are complete nonsense. L-I-T-E-R-A-L N-O-N-S-E-N-S-E

People here are interested in gambling. You don't even have an excuse you crazy fuck.

[kewlJ]

AccountinQuestion. If a machine can be put in a mode where it can sequence the cards back to original sequence then it has the capability to put the cards in any order desire. How that happens, what needs to be done to make that happen is almost irrelevant. It has that capability and then we are all at the mercy of this dastardly and predatory industry to not do so. I hope we can agree on that.

STOP saying my purchasing a machine is not true. THAT is simply your opinion. I could put you in touch with the well known AP here in Vegas that I sold the machine to and there would be no questions asked because of who he is. But he doesn't want that to happen. He has used that machine and the knowledge he was able to get from it to make money.

I was able to purchase the machine, one used in an Asian casino from a black market type place on the internet. The kind of place I didn't even know existed. It cost me over 10 grand. In the video they say it can cost up to 20 grand now. That is probably right. I bought one 5-6 years ago. Maybe 7 now.

The reason this was so important to me is because of what I do for a living. When I encountered the first situation at East Cannery, my reaction was this is bad. But I assumed this was a one time thing. Like a rouge dealer dealing seconds. When you encounter that you stop playing that dealer and casino which is exactly how I handled it. And East Cannery at that time, was an independent small casino. loosely affiliated with another small casino in North Vegas, The cannery, but not exactly the same owner at the time, Shortly after this incident East Cannery was sold to the Boyd Chain, which never made much sense since Boyd has Sam's town literally a block away. And after the covid shutdown, Boyd never re-opened East Cannery. It still just sits there closed up with a sign directing people to Sam's town. But it was a small independent casino at the time, just the kind of place that you encounter this kind of rogue stuff.

So when I saw the second incident and it was a year or two later, as a player who makes a living from card counting, I immediately went into panic mode. Rather than an isolated incident, I was thinking this will start happening more and more and I needed to do something to try to blow the whistle and shut it down for self-preservation of my career. I say I wanted to warn other players and I did, but if I am being honest, I had no desire to do that after the first (east Cannery) incident, so maybe it was really just about me and self-preservation and warning other players was secondary.

So upon seeing that second situation, a year or two later, that is why I was so determined to prove to myself what was happening, so I could attempt to blow the whistle and stop it....for self preservation reasons. I mean I don't go out and spend 10 grand for a machine for amusement purposes.

So if you don't want to believe that....don't believe it. But it is 100% true and I wish you would stop calling me a liar based only on your opinion of what you think happened.

[accountinquestion]

AccountinQuestion. If a machine can be put in a mode where it can sequence the cards back to original sequence then it has the capability to put the cards in any order desire. How that happens, what needs to be done to make that happen is almost irrelevant. It has that capability and then we are all at the mercy of this dastardly and predatory industry to not do so. I hope we can agree on that.

STOP saying my purchasing a machine is not true. THAT is simply your opinion. I could put you in touch with the well known AP here in Vegas that I sold the machine to and there would be no questions asked because of who he is. But he doesn't want that to happen. He has used that machine and the knowledge he was able to get from it to make money.

I was able to purchase the machine, one used in an Asian casino from a black market type place on the internet. The kind of place I didn't even know existed. It cost me over 10 grand. In the video they say it can cost up to 20 grand now. That is probably right. I bought one 5-6 years ago. Maybe 7 now.

The reason this was so important to me is because of what I do for a living. When I encountered the first situation at East Cannery, my reaction was this is bad. But I assumed this was a one time thing. Like a rouge dealer dealing seconds. When you encounter that you stop playing that dealer and casino which is exactly how I handled it. And East Cannery at that time, was an independent small casino. loosely affiliated with another small casino in North Vegas, The cannery, but not exactly the same owner at the time, Shortly after this incident East Cannery was sold to the Boyd Chain, which never made much sense since Boyd has Sam's town literally a block away. And after the covid shutdown, Boyd never re-opened East Cannery. It still just sits there closed up with a sign directing people to Sam's town. But it was a small independent casino at the time, just the kind of place that you encounter this kind of rogue stuff.

So when I saw the second incident and it was a year or two later, as a player who makes a living from card counting, I immediately went into panic mode. Rather than an isolated incident, I was thinking this will start happening more and more and I needed to do something to try to blow the whistle and shut it down for self-preservation of my career. I say I wanted to warn other players and I did, but if I am being honest, I had no desire to do that after the first (east Cannery) incident, so maybe it was really just about me and self-preservation and warning other players was secondary.

So upon seeing that second situation, a year or two later, that is why I was so determined to prove to myself what was happening, so I could attempt to blow the whistle and stop it....for self preservation reasons. I mean I don't go out and spend 10 grand for a machine for amusement purposes.

So if you don't want to believe that....don't believe it. But it is 100% true and I wish you would stop calling me a liar based only on your opinion of what you think happened.

People have known the machines can sort the cards since the shufflers were released.

The reading of the cards also keeps people from cheating by palming cards and switching them out and so forth. There are upsides. It isn't some big hidden thing like you want to suggest.

More anonymous "well known" APs. You know these people, just no one else does. You say you don't think it is useful to network in the AP world yet you have all these discussion with people outside forums. You can never provide any specific or have them vouch for you. Maxpen figured out who you are and claimed you're a redchipper. Anyone else? Nope - zilch. Oh somenone said there is an entry in the db labeled "kewlj". So 2 things and you being around for 10+ years. Nothing that could really be considered a vouch.

I wish you wouldn't lie so much and I could believe you.

I'm kinda over reading your background story on this. Just the idea that you hired a guy who hacked it in 15 minutes is so preposterous. These guys that you call "high level hackers" or whatever couldn't do the same thing over a substantial timeframe. Stop it.

Dragging in more casinos for your tale is just you trying to flesh out your lie to make it more believable. We've seen this countless times with you.

A maintenance code is not anywhere near the same as some code that enables the machine to go into specific cheat modes. I would expect the former but never the latter. No one outside of your 15 minute attempt has suggested the latter is a real thing.

Anyway I really need to do work today. I've been adding to my todo list but not executing it.

[kewlJ]

People witness all sorts of things. Lets look at Zenking for an example. It really means so little. The convergence of luck, many trials, and human psychology basically guarantee people will come up with theories to explain their running bad.

I don't dismiss and demonize Zenking as easily as some of you people do. Sure he vents too much. Looking only from a distance as I do, it looks to me like he doesn't handle the normal variance, especially the negative downswings that are a normal part of card counting very well. It sometimes takes a while to understand and be able to deal with this part of the game. But he should be past that and better able to handle it by now, IMO. But everyone is different.

But make no mistake, despite the demonizing that is frequently done to Zenking, he is a real player, who makes a living playing and he surely has seen some things where that internal "gut feeling" of an experienced player kicks in and say "something is not right".

On top of that, Zenking, knows, meets with, talks to a number of real advantage players that play for a living, both blackjack card counting and other methods. I am quite sure some of them have seen things that they don't talk about on forums, for the exact reasons that have played out ever since I first mentioned this.

So Zenking may be a little overly paranoid, which probably doesn't serve him well and he may not be able to handle the severest of swings yet, like he probably should, but don't just dismiss him as a crack pot. He is an experienced card counter/blackjack player who no doubt in my mind has seen some things that are "not normal" and knows and speaks with other experienced players that know things.

[Gottlob1]

What a bunch of useless typing. Walls of it.

Says the guy who gets responses from multiple people on the regular that his posts are complete nonsense. L-I-T-E-R-A-L N-O-N-S-E-N-S-E

People here are interested in gambling. You don't even have an excuse you crazy fuck.

Say what you want, but, it's still walls of useless typing. Anything would be an improvement. You just have a problem with trying to take over. Go fuck yourself, expert at nothing, and jack of stupidity. Ha.

[accountinquestion]

The problem Kewl is that it would be within the realm of believability if you had just told your story of how you thought you were cheated.

THat isn't what you did. You cliamed you set out to verify it. So you purchased the machine. Ok still believable. But then you hired a hackeresque person who was able to come up with cheat codes that were in an off the shelf shuffler that made it go into specific preprogrammed cheat modes. This is NOT possible.

You fucked up and I'm not going to let up. Just because it isn't "math" doesn't mean that people shouldn't be protected ! right!?

[accountinquestion]

People witness all sorts of things. Lets look at Zenking for an example. It really means so little. The convergence of luck, many trials, and human psychology basically guarantee people will come up with theories to explain their running bad.

I don't dismiss and demonize Zenking as easily as some of you people do. Sure he vents too much. Looking only from a distance as I do, it looks to me like he doesn't handle the normal variance, especially the negative downswings that are a normal part of card counting very well. It sometimes takes a while to understand and be able to deal with this part of the game. But he should be past that and better able to handle it by now, IMO. But everyone is different.

But make no mistake, despite the demonizing that is frequently done to Zenking, he is a real player, who makes a living playing and he surely has seen some things where that internal "gut feeling" of an experienced player kicks in and say "something is not right".

On top of that, Zenking, knows, meets with, talks to a number of real advantage players that play for a living, both blackjack card counting and other methods. I am quite sure some of them have seen things that they don't talk about on forums, for the exact reasons that have played out ever since I first mentioned this.

So Zenking may be a little overly paranoid, which probably doesn't serve him well and he may not be able to handle the severest of swings yet, like he probably should, but don't just dismiss him as a crack pot. He is an experienced card counter/blackjack player who no doubt in my mind has seen some things that are "not normal" and knows and speaks with other experienced players that know things.

Lol you trying to bring in a 3rd party to make your views more believable. Typical.

It isn't just Zenking. People have been talking about rigged RNGs since the dawn of online gambling. It is just human nature. It means so little.

[kewlJ]

On anonymous AP and why they don't talk about certain things:

First isnt it obvious?

I am a card counter. There is nothing new about card counting. It has been known for 60 years and been around even longer. So I can say whatever I want basically. Sure there are some techniques like spreading both ways, that aren't super well know and if I mention that, I could be harming myself a little. I have a history of that.

But there is a whole bunch of AP shit that isn't well know and isn't talked about on open forums. And if somebody does say something the other "anonymous AP's growl. Hole-carding used to be one of those kind of things. When I first started on forums, if anyone even mentioned hole-carding everyone freaked out. "Don't talk about that on the forums". But over time hole-carding is almost like card counting now. Most of it is common knowledge.

But there are plenty of other things that still are not common knowledge. That casinos don't know about or only know some of. So these things aren't talked about on open public forums unless someone is trying to sabotage.

I don't know why this would be hard to understand and why all the snarly comments about how secretive AP's are and secret handshakes and that kind of nonsense. AP's fight a battel with casinos on a daily basis. Card counters have been fighting this battle for decades, but with all the new game and types of AP methods, it is now catching up to all AP's. And it isn't just the old cat and mouse game between AP and casino that it was for such a long time. Casinos have allies. Consultants and database companies. And these allies have people that look for and monitor social media. It is a whole new ballgame, and we fight a formidable foe on a daily basis.

So I just don't get why anyone would wonder why AP's are so secretive. Plus, you can look at the ones that do talk too much, like me and see the price we pay for being stupid.

[accountinquestion]

On anonymous AP and why they don't talk about certain things:

First isnt it obvious?

I am a card counter. There is nothing new about card counting. It has been known for 60 years and been around even longer. So I can say whatever I want basically. Sure there are some techniques like spreading both ways, that aren't super well know and if I mention that, I could be harming myself a little. I have a history of that.

But there is a whole bunch of AP shit that isn't well know and isn't talked about on open forums. And if somebody does say something the other "anonymous AP's growl. Hole-carding used to be one of those kind of things. When I first started on forums, if anyone even mentioned hole-carding everyone freaked out. "Don't talk about that on the forums". But over time hole-carding is almost like card counting now. Most of it is common knowledge.

But there are plenty of other things that still are not common knowledge. That casinos don't know about or only know some of. So these things aren't talked about on open public forums unless someone is trying to sabotage.

I don't know why this would be hard to understand and why all the snarly comments about how secretive AP's are and secret handshakes and that kind of nonsense. AP's fight a battel with casinos on a daily basis. Card counters have been fighting this battle for decades, but with all the new game and types of AP methods, it is now catching up to all AP's. And it isn't just the old cat and mouse game between AP and casino that it was for such a long time. Casinos have allies. Consultants and database companies. And these allies have people that look for and monitor social media. It is a whole new ballgame, and we fight a formidable foe on a daily basis.

So I just don't get why anyone would wonder why AP's are so secretive. Plus, you can look at the ones that do talk too much, like me and see the price we pay for being stupid.

I'm secretive too but I've met 3 members on here and I'm not even a professional AP.

Anyway.. this is stupid. What you're saying adds nothing. I'm not telling you to start discussing anything that might be secretive. I'm just saying it is funny how you can't find one person on this forum who has dealt with you personally HOWEVER you always have these APs contacting you secretively. Many are "well known". It is tiresome dude. Cut it out.

I like how you stick with being you. Even the victimhood. Ohh but you were just too open ! No, you lied too much and it caught up with you. It has nothing to do with AP secrecy. You're just full of shit and everyone on this forum knows it now. Nothing will change.

[kewlJ]

Dude, you have no proof of the things you are saying. It is your opinion. Prove to me that I didn't purchase a machine and sell it to another AP. Right now! Prove it. Not just speculate or state your opinion. PROVE IT! YOU CAN'T!

Now there is some tangible proof of some things I said. When I went public with my accusations involving the second casino (sweaty downtown casino), I did so on Norm's blackjack forum, because I wanted to warn as many blackjack players as possible. No offense to Dan Druff or Gambling forums, but I wasn't going to reach the most players on these forums. So I went to Norm's blackjack forum, which is a forum populated by many real players from recreational to professional. A good number of professional players or AP.

I never posted the info at WoV, which would have been my second choice. But as often happens that story immediately made it's way there, which was ok by me. It was good. Reaching even more real players. So the day I posted the accusation and hit was public on both forums (plus I think I did bring it here as well), anyone could have gone to the casino named and looked for themselves. they would have seen the clumping I was talking about. They could have proven it to themselves that day, the next day. The day after that. It was more than a week; I think more like 10 days before the machines in question were pulled from the floor. So there was a window that anybody could have looked and seen for themselves. I mean there are a lot of members and AP's in Vegas.

Of course some of the AP's already knew of this and were doing things that made this advantageous to them. But that is a whole other story or part of the story.

There was actually some behind the scenes investigation. You know the secretive Ap stuff, with the secret handshakes. One well know guy here is Vegas was trying to get Mike Shackleford to be the face of an official complaint to Gaming. But Shackleford was away on one of his 50 vacations a year and by the time he returned and read up and was interested, it was too late, the machines had been pulled from the floor.