World Game Protection

[Mission146]

You can probably read that as, "Do as little as possible while making enough to get by." That wouldn't be an unfair characterization.

[Mission146]

You need more starting bankroll than I would have, as well. You could get shut down on your first set of cards at your first place. If you want to do a midscale operation, I'd think you'd need a bankroll of about 50k-100k to even contemplate starting a midscale operation relatively safely. You'd also have to spread out to different markets with that. You'd also have to be extremely conservative in how you're running the initial coin-in and would also need to know some target numbers, in advance. 50k-100k is not enough to go around having to test tiers without knowing already. Maybe 100k is.

[Gottlob1]

Ha. You're a bit like me with the Firstly, secondly, ... . One time, I went up to twenty-thirdly. I treat money like computers - they're only tools. No need to have, or learn, any more than you have to, to get the job done. In fact, what's more important is the distribution of wealth in the community. Once the richer folk suck it out, there's no putting it back, even if they wanted to. I mean, twenty years down the road, the damage is done. Because, as soon as elected, the guy forgets about everything except getting re-elected. Instant psychopaths insofar as no one can truly feel for the next guy, let alone the masses that elected him, or her.

[jdog]

Thanks for posting Mickey, I did find a few things of value in the multi-carding one.

[Treeshade]

You need more starting bankroll than I would have, as well. You could get shut down on your first set of cards at your first place. If you want to do a midscale operation, I'd think you'd need a bankroll of about 50k-100k to even contemplate starting a midscale operation relatively safely. You'd also have to spread out to different markets with that. You'd also have to be extremely conservative in how you're running the initial coin-in and would also need to know some target numbers, in advance. 50k-100k is not enough to go around having to test tiers without knowing already. Maybe 100k is.

The MC streets are littered with the bodies of APs who started with only 50k. Especially in areas like AC where the casinos are known to kill cards quickly. For every one Darkoz who seems to have started with a Big Mac coupon there are a 100s who failed. It’s not as easy as the naysayers believe. Contrary to the the beliefs of most APs casino surveillance experts do their job very well. The lack of respect to the professionals on the other side is a pet peeve of mine. I preach this to my guys daily. It’s my main problem with Darkoz as he flaunts his expertise openly. This serves to only motivate the opposition to create better systems. We all get pinched by surveillance eventually. If you do something at scale it’s bound to happen. We have to be perfect they only need to get lucky one time really. And believe me they can get very lucky because there’s always random shit that happens in casinos.

[mickeycrimm]

Follow-out robberies:

https://www.willyallison.com/podcast

[AxelWolf]

It seems like a good listen; let's find out. (This is the multi-card one)

Oh, right, you're not talking to me. Oh well. I'll talk to everyone else.

INTRO-3:00: Well, there it is from a dark sider for any fucking retards who don't believe that substantial money is made by multi-carding. I really don't understand people who would claim this doesn't happen anyway.

"In some cases, it can be as much as 200% advantage."

What does he mean by that? Is he saying that the expectation is that the card runner will ultimately triple his coin-in? A 200% advantage would be I play $5,000 coin-in and my expectation is to profit $10,000.

Hmm...I guess he might be right, in some cases. 200% of all initial coin-in sounds kind of high to me, though. Often more than 100% of all initial coin-in, for sure.

3:00-5:00: He says that it would, "Have to be in that $100 average range," to generate offers. I assume he is referring to ADT. I don't even think that is strictly true unless some of the places I've done it simply treat everything as slots and grade the ADT as 10% of all coin-in. Even then, there are offers at tiers below the tier that I was doing there, which took less coin-in. He should just say it varies. There's really no minimum. Shit, there might even be some places thay would E-Mail you $5 Free Play, or something, even if you got a card without ever playing anything. Who knows? There's no one answer.

5:00-8:00: All accurate.

8:00-10:00: "The programs aren't designed to reward the player who takes advantage of it; the programs are designed to reward our loyal customers-the loyal customers who walk through our door and play every time."

Why doesn't this guy just say to reward the long-term losing gamblers? REWARD!? They aren't, 'Designed,' to reward anyone. They are designed to create the perception of value for losing gamblers so that they will return. How disingenuous!

10:00-17:00:. This is mostly fine. He does mention people just going up and saying, "My name is XXXXXX XXXXXX," and getting a player's club card without presenting ID. He says that's an exception to the rule, but that's one hell of a weird exception when it happens at all. What is someone running cards going to do? Is he saying they are going to try every Players Club representative until he gets the one that doesn't check ID? I guess that would be theoretically possible, but I seriously doubt it. Too much exposure to test a long shot outcome, for one thing.

If I had to guess, when that happens at all, the players club representative almost certainly has to be in on it. It's not something that I think someone would risk exposure just to test all willy-nilly.

After that, he talks about fake ID's. I don't think that happens often. I have certainly never seen that happen. For one thing, I think you're getting into criminal territory, at that point. The times I have actually gone to the desks and gotten cards, the person was the one doing it and presented their own ID. Generally, the individual is compensated for the card and agrees to what's going on. When I've taken people, without getting into too much detail, I've always given them an idea of what the benefit is to the purchaser. Even though I doubt anything worse than simply being 86'ed would ever happen to the cardholder, I do want them to be making an informed decision.

Another thing that can sometimes happen is that hosts might print cards for people who have not arrived yet, but then that's on the host. Somebody could also know a host and get cards printed that way. Either way, anything that is NOT fake ID sounds like a staff training issue or surveillance/oversight issue...so you really can't blame the multi-card people for that.

17:00-21:00: Haha! I know who he's talking about!

21:00-22:00: I guess I don't know who he's talking about. The people I'm thinking of would not use fake ID's. Maybe he means THEIR OWN ID's are fake. I guess that's possible; how would I know?

22:00-25:00:. This guy is mostly being fair, so far. If he just wanted to make folks look bad, then he would say people are using stolen cards. As he correctly points out, cards that have already been used wouldn't have any value to people unless they somehow knew the offers were good. They'd also have no way of changing the PIN as long as staff is doing their job. Finally, you'd have the problem that the person would likely complain about their offers being gone, then staff would go to surveillance and would see who used the card and would know the card had been stolen. That would cook an entire operation, potentially.

So, I will say I appreciate him being honest and saying nobody is using stolen cards. Generally speaking, ignoring this fake ID thing...which I have literally never seen happen...these people give their permission for the AP's to use the cards. Obviously, the AP's HOPE that these people do not go in and claim their offers are being stolen. Any of these people getting the players cards, if they were underhanded, clever and savvy, could do just that and would end up with the offers.

But, even that wouldn't make much sense for them to do. What would make the most sense is for them to simply change the PIN and ignore calls and texts, then they would get the offers.

25:00-28:00: People who have never done anything along these lines will find these three minutes very interesting.

28:00-31:00: A 5% edge is a lot. Almost as high as double-zero Roulette. I don't think there are very many people doing this at only 5%, all things considered. Way too low.

31:00-35:00: The host suggests nobody is watching us because there's nothing to watch for. First of all, that's not strictly true. They start looking for us, but usually not until they have actually realized that they are being hit and have been being hit for quite some time. Secondly, depending on what, specifically, we are doing...or where we are at in the process...there are tells they could look for. We don't necessarily do things just like anyone else would. We try to blend, obviously, but there are some tells if you know what you're looking for.

In fact, if someone is recruited to get a card (as opposed to already working with that person or team) then there are some smack you in the face obvious tells even when they are signing up for the card. I obviously won't say what those are, but they exist. The people would just have to know what to look for and actually document it.

35:00-35:30 This host is obsessed with, 'Homeless people.' I'm sure you'd sometimes use homeless people, but generally, the people getting cards have not been homeless in anything I have participated in. Why would I go around asking random homeless people? No. They are not making $15/hour and the person whose name the card is in generally doesn't do any playing or touch any money. In fact, the playing is often not even done on the same day that the card is obtained...unless there's some sort of active promotion unrelated to backend mail.

If I were to take someone out to Atlantic City, for example, 12 hours round trip, and they get food + $500, then that is $41.67/hour. They're also not homeless. They're just a person who could use $500 for one day of sitting in a car. You don't have to be homeless for that to have value to you.

On a local play that needed cards, I think they were paying $75 per card and it was a total of an hour and a half for the people from my neck of the woods (at the time). That's $50/hour. That's also a decade ago. If the same play happened now, I would want that they be offered $125 MINIMUM or I would refuse to even ask anyone.

35:00-39:00: MISSOURI!!!??? What's good in Missouri? I've never heard Missouri. Probably Harrah's NKC, or something, CET properties might still market completely independently in local/regional places, but if they don't now, they definitely did before.

39:00-40:00: I told you guys the sky can see our phones. Some people didn't believe me that the cameras were good enough on that. Some people I've worked with have known that. They could also see them almost a decade ago. The guy being interviewed is right. I only know because I could almost do it with the hotel's cameras...and those cameras were shit. If it was a picture, I could zoom and tell what the picture was of. I couldn't quite read text, but that was usually because of glare. If I had any editing know-how, then I probably could have cleaned the glare up somehow.

SO IF WE WORK ON ANYTHING ELSE QUIT FUCKING TEXTING ME WHEN I AM INSIDE!!! THE RESULTS WILL BE THE RESULTS. You know who you are. LOL

40:00-43:00: Is it illegal? "No." This guy is fair. There are ways it could become illegal, which he gets into, but it is not illegal in and of itself.

And it's ABSOLUTELY NOT FUCKING WIRE FRAUD!!! FUCK YOU, OCEAN RESORT ATLANTIC CITY SECURITY GUY!!! NO, I DON'T FEEL BAD FOR CALLING YOU THAT.

43:00-45:00: I read that as he had forty cards on him when they popped him. Anyone interpret that differently? My advice is don't do that. You should have, at most, two on your person at any given time. Just imo.

45:00-49:00 Some guys might already know this stuff, but even people on the AP end of things should listen to this. Do not do social media (publicly viewable) under your actual names. Or, if you do, DO NOT be friends with anyone on the socials who are in your operation.

49:00-51:00: Smart. I'm shocked it took as long as it did for them to figure that one out.

51:00: Well, anyone who wants to know a non-LV and non-AC area that was good can now. Probably still good. You're going to need to take some precautions since they're looking for it now.

51:00-55:00: We call that, "No-Mailed." You're not 86'ed. Nice. One play I was on the casino just went absolutely nuclear with trespasses and almost certainly 86'ed people who had nothing to do with us, any other team and probably weren't even actually trying to exploit the promotion! LOL. I'm not laughing at the people; I'm just laughing that the casino would do that.

55:00-55:30: I think they're more worried about their name (and maybe picture) hitting searchable things that they are a petty charge for defiant trespass.

Good recommendation, Mick; it is weird that you were brought up. I guess they were just naming someone who discusses plays. Yeah, I've never heard of you to multi-card.

I'd recommend this for everyone. Most people who have done this won't learn anything new. Maybe one or two things. Great video for people who don't know how it works.

Lol if I wasn’t so paranoid we could shared info and my guy on the ground in AC could have worked with you. Maybe I wouldn’t have left 250k on the table after The shit hit the fan. Hall of fame play a few years back.

O and I wouldn’t leave my house for a 5 percent edge

Good rules BJ machine, $100 bets, fast machines 1k hands per hr, instant 5.5% cashback?

[cyberbabble]

Good stuff, Mickey. Keep them coming.

[Treeshade]

It seems like a good listen; let's find out. (This is the multi-card one)

Oh, right, you're not talking to me. Oh well. I'll talk to everyone else.

INTRO-3:00: Well, there it is from a dark sider for any fucking retards who don't believe that substantial money is made by multi-carding. I really don't understand people who would claim this doesn't happen anyway.

"In some cases, it can be as much as 200% advantage."

What does he mean by that? Is he saying that the expectation is that the card runner will ultimately triple his coin-in? A 200% advantage would be I play $5,000 coin-in and my expectation is to profit $10,000.

Hmm...I guess he might be right, in some cases. 200% of all initial coin-in sounds kind of high to me, though. Often more than 100% of all initial coin-in, for sure.

3:00-5:00: He says that it would, "Have to be in that $100 average range," to generate offers. I assume he is referring to ADT. I don't even think that is strictly true unless some of the places I've done it simply treat everything as slots and grade the ADT as 10% of all coin-in. Even then, there are offers at tiers below the tier that I was doing there, which took less coin-in. He should just say it varies. There's really no minimum. Shit, there might even be some places thay would E-Mail you $5 Free Play, or something, even if you got a card without ever playing anything. Who knows? There's no one answer.

5:00-8:00: All accurate.

8:00-10:00: "The programs aren't designed to reward the player who takes advantage of it; the programs are designed to reward our loyal customers-the loyal customers who walk through our door and play every time."

Why doesn't this guy just say to reward the long-term losing gamblers? REWARD!? They aren't, 'Designed,' to reward anyone. They are designed to create the perception of value for losing gamblers so that they will return. How disingenuous!

10:00-17:00:. This is mostly fine. He does mention people just going up and saying, "My name is XXXXXX XXXXXX," and getting a player's club card without presenting ID. He says that's an exception to the rule, but that's one hell of a weird exception when it happens at all. What is someone running cards going to do? Is he saying they are going to try every Players Club representative until he gets the one that doesn't check ID? I guess that would be theoretically possible, but I seriously doubt it. Too much exposure to test a long shot outcome, for one thing.

If I had to guess, when that happens at all, the players club representative almost certainly has to be in on it. It's not something that I think someone would risk exposure just to test all willy-nilly.

After that, he talks about fake ID's. I don't think that happens often. I have certainly never seen that happen. For one thing, I think you're getting into criminal territory, at that point. The times I have actually gone to the desks and gotten cards, the person was the one doing it and presented their own ID. Generally, the individual is compensated for the card and agrees to what's going on. When I've taken people, without getting into too much detail, I've always given them an idea of what the benefit is to the purchaser. Even though I doubt anything worse than simply being 86'ed would ever happen to the cardholder, I do want them to be making an informed decision.

Another thing that can sometimes happen is that hosts might print cards for people who have not arrived yet, but then that's on the host. Somebody could also know a host and get cards printed that way. Either way, anything that is NOT fake ID sounds like a staff training issue or surveillance/oversight issue...so you really can't blame the multi-card people for that.

17:00-21:00: Haha! I know who he's talking about!

21:00-22:00: I guess I don't know who he's talking about. The people I'm thinking of would not use fake ID's. Maybe he means THEIR OWN ID's are fake. I guess that's possible; how would I know?

22:00-25:00:. This guy is mostly being fair, so far. If he just wanted to make folks look bad, then he would say people are using stolen cards. As he correctly points out, cards that have already been used wouldn't have any value to people unless they somehow knew the offers were good. They'd also have no way of changing the PIN as long as staff is doing their job. Finally, you'd have the problem that the person would likely complain about their offers being gone, then staff would go to surveillance and would see who used the card and would know the card had been stolen. That would cook an entire operation, potentially.

So, I will say I appreciate him being honest and saying nobody is using stolen cards. Generally speaking, ignoring this fake ID thing...which I have literally never seen happen...these people give their permission for the AP's to use the cards. Obviously, the AP's HOPE that these people do not go in and claim their offers are being stolen. Any of these people getting the players cards, if they were underhanded, clever and savvy, could do just that and would end up with the offers.

But, even that wouldn't make much sense for them to do. What would make the most sense is for them to simply change the PIN and ignore calls and texts, then they would get the offers.

25:00-28:00: People who have never done anything along these lines will find these three minutes very interesting.

28:00-31:00: A 5% edge is a lot. Almost as high as double-zero Roulette. I don't think there are very many people doing this at only 5%, all things considered. Way too low.

31:00-35:00: The host suggests nobody is watching us because there's nothing to watch for. First of all, that's not strictly true. They start looking for us, but usually not until they have actually realized that they are being hit and have been being hit for quite some time. Secondly, depending on what, specifically, we are doing...or where we are at in the process...there are tells they could look for. We don't necessarily do things just like anyone else would. We try to blend, obviously, but there are some tells if you know what you're looking for.

In fact, if someone is recruited to get a card (as opposed to already working with that person or team) then there are some smack you in the face obvious tells even when they are signing up for the card. I obviously won't say what those are, but they exist. The people would just have to know what to look for and actually document it.

35:00-35:30 This host is obsessed with, 'Homeless people.' I'm sure you'd sometimes use homeless people, but generally, the people getting cards have not been homeless in anything I have participated in. Why would I go around asking random homeless people? No. They are not making $15/hour and the person whose name the card is in generally doesn't do any playing or touch any money. In fact, the playing is often not even done on the same day that the card is obtained...unless there's some sort of active promotion unrelated to backend mail.

If I were to take someone out to Atlantic City, for example, 12 hours round trip, and they get food + $500, then that is $41.67/hour. They're also not homeless. They're just a person who could use $500 for one day of sitting in a car. You don't have to be homeless for that to have value to you.

On a local play that needed cards, I think they were paying $75 per card and it was a total of an hour and a half for the people from my neck of the woods (at the time). That's $50/hour. That's also a decade ago. If the same play happened now, I would want that they be offered $125 MINIMUM or I would refuse to even ask anyone.

35:00-39:00: MISSOURI!!!??? What's good in Missouri? I've never heard Missouri. Probably Harrah's NKC, or something, CET properties might still market completely independently in local/regional places, but if they don't now, they definitely did before.

39:00-40:00: I told you guys the sky can see our phones. Some people didn't believe me that the cameras were good enough on that. Some people I've worked with have known that. They could also see them almost a decade ago. The guy being interviewed is right. I only know because I could almost do it with the hotel's cameras...and those cameras were shit. If it was a picture, I could zoom and tell what the picture was of. I couldn't quite read text, but that was usually because of glare. If I had any editing know-how, then I probably could have cleaned the glare up somehow.

SO IF WE WORK ON ANYTHING ELSE QUIT FUCKING TEXTING ME WHEN I AM INSIDE!!! THE RESULTS WILL BE THE RESULTS. You know who you are. LOL

40:00-43:00: Is it illegal? "No." This guy is fair. There are ways it could become illegal, which he gets into, but it is not illegal in and of itself.

And it's ABSOLUTELY NOT FUCKING WIRE FRAUD!!! FUCK YOU, OCEAN RESORT ATLANTIC CITY SECURITY GUY!!! NO, I DON'T FEEL BAD FOR CALLING YOU THAT.

43:00-45:00: I read that as he had forty cards on him when they popped him. Anyone interpret that differently? My advice is don't do that. You should have, at most, two on your person at any given time. Just imo.

45:00-49:00 Some guys might already know this stuff, but even people on the AP end of things should listen to this. Do not do social media (publicly viewable) under your actual names. Or, if you do, DO NOT be friends with anyone on the socials who are in your operation.

49:00-51:00: Smart. I'm shocked it took as long as it did for them to figure that one out.

51:00: Well, anyone who wants to know a non-LV and non-AC area that was good can now. Probably still good. You're going to need to take some precautions since they're looking for it now.

51:00-55:00: We call that, "No-Mailed." You're not 86'ed. Nice. One play I was on the casino just went absolutely nuclear with trespasses and almost certainly 86'ed people who had nothing to do with us, any other team and probably weren't even actually trying to exploit the promotion! LOL. I'm not laughing at the people; I'm just laughing that the casino would do that.

55:00-55:30: I think they're more worried about their name (and maybe picture) hitting searchable things that they are a petty charge for defiant trespass.

Good recommendation, Mick; it is weird that you were brought up. I guess they were just naming someone who discusses plays. Yeah, I've never heard of you to multi-card.

I'd recommend this for everyone. Most people who have done this won't learn anything new. Maybe one or two things. Great video for people who don't know how it works.

Lol if I wasn’t so paranoid we could shared info and my guy on the ground in AC could have worked with you. Maybe I wouldn’t have left 250k on the table after The shit hit the fan. Hall of fame play a few years back.

O and I wouldn’t leave my house for a 5 percent edge

Good rules BJ machine, $100 bets, fast machines 1k hands per hr, instant 5.5% cashback?

I guess that would get me out the front door. I had one within the last two years with a max bet $50 worth a little over 1%. It was In the middle of bum fuck USA. Never went back. I’ve found similar machines not as much as 5 but more then 1 percent but with a max bet of $10. I’m running my current thing until the wheels fall off or until the Asian horde gets wind of it.

[mickeycrimm]

The Secrets of Productive Surveillance Departments:

https://www.willyallison.com/podcast

[mickeycrimm]

duplicate

[mickeycrimm]

How Hackers Rigged a Shuffle Machine:

https://fast.wistia.com/embed/channe...lid=ebwvqius7d

[accountinquestion]

How Hackers Rigged a Shuffle Machine:

https://fast.wistia.com/embed/channe...lid=ebwvqius7d

These podcast guys have run out of legitimate things to talk about. These are the same hackers Kewl posted about. If you dig into it they didn't really hack anything. They TRIED but they didn't. Of course that doesn't mean it can't be done but nothing has shown that it can be done via software only.

1 hour podcast on that subject makes me question the value of their podcast. These are the same guys that talked for 10 minutes how about patrons and slot techs want people paid in cash. It never even dawned on them that management wants cash and not checks for jackpots... Given that management wants it then unlikely they'd ever promote not paying out in cash. (TITO being cash) Don't think it ever dawned on either of these 2 guys.

Actually Redietz said the article (video?) had been distributed to his book club people for discussion. lol.


Here is all you need to know ->
If a machine can read the cards then via software modification the shuffler would be able to cheat. In general this would not be very effective unless you could communicate with the shuffler during its use. I believe they had a USB port on them .. don't recall. However literally nothing was uncovered but people have to write/talk about something.

[mickeycrimm]

How Hackers Rigged a Shuffle Machine:

https://fast.wistia.com/embed/channe...lid=ebwvqius7d

These podcast guys have run out of legitimate things to talk about. These are the same hackers Kewl posted about. If you dig into it they didn't really hack anything. They TRIED but they didn't. Of course that doesn't mean it can't be done but nothing has shown that it can be done via software only.

1 hour podcast on that subject makes me question the value of their podcast. These are the same guys that talked for 10 minutes how about patrons and slot techs want people paid in cash. It never even dawned on them that management wants cash and not checks for jackpots... Given that management wants it then unlikely they'd ever promote not paying out in cash. (TITO being cash) Don't think it ever dawned on either of these 2 guys.

Actually Redietz said the article (video?) had been distributed to his book club people for discussion. lol.


Here is all you need to know ->
If a machine can read the cards then via software modification the shuffler would be able to cheat. In general this would not be very effective unless you could communicate with the shuffler during its use. I believe they had a USB port on them .. don't recall. However literally nothing was uncovered but people have to write/talk about something.

LOL! You made this post 11 minutes after I posted a 1 hour video. You didn't listen but you know what they had to say? What, are you clairvoyant? It wasn't what Allison and Hoke had to say. They interviewed a professional hacker.

If you don't like the World Protection podcasts then try something unique and don't listen to them. Oh, wait! You're aren't listening to them. But it doesn't stop you from spouting ignorant blather about them.

And please, quit acting like you are some kind of hacking expert. You're embarrassing yourself.

[kewlJ]

LOL! You made this post 11 minutes after I posted a 1 hour video. You didn't listen but you know what they had to say? What, are you clairvoyant? It wasn't what Allison and Hoke had to say. They interviewed a professional hacker.

If you don't like the World Protection podcasts then try something unique and don't listen to them. Oh, wait! You're aren't listening to them. But it doesn't stop you from spouting ignorant blather about them.

And please, quit acting like you are some kind of hacking expert. You're embarrassing yourself.

AinQ has been embarrassing himself on this topic for several years now. Anybody that doesn't think hacking and manipulating of these machines is possible is just clueless or in denial.

Once the technology was there and installed for these machines to read the cards, which has been in place for a decade now, the door opened to endless possibilities.

[accountinquestion]

LOL! You made this post 11 minutes after I posted a 1 hour video. You didn't listen but you know what they had to say? What, are you clairvoyant? It wasn't what Allison and Hoke had to say. They interviewed a professional hacker.

If you don't like the World Protection podcasts then try something unique and don't listen to them. Oh, wait! You're aren't listening to them. But it doesn't stop you from spouting ignorant blather about them.

And please, quit acting like you are some kind of hacking expert. You're embarrassing yourself.

AinQ has been embarrassing himself on this topic for several years now. Anybody that doesn't think hacking and manipulating of these machines is possible is just clueless or in denial.

Once the technology was there and installed for these machines to read the cards, which has been in place for a decade now, the door opened to endless possibilities.

FraudJ is such a clueless loser. As much jokes I say about him I don't recall ever misrepresenting what he says. FraudJ, I never said manipulating wasn't possible. You claimed there was a built-in mode which WAS NOT A HACK. That is a totally different thing.

I also never said I didn't listen to their podcasts. That shuffler thing isn't a story. Literally all there is to know is my synopsis. Go ahead and be pissed. IDGAF. No one as usual wants to argue actual points/details. I will listen to it but not anything high priority.. they are presenting it like there is something there. Ok. I don't disagree there isn't stuff there but it doesn't come from what they're referencing.

FraudJ Go lower your cellphone back through the manhole and duck your head down where you belong. Back to the tunnels with you.

Mickey - There is a summary of the episode in text. They talk of the specific source material. I don't even believe the talk was recorded but you can find a couple of people having written about it. It might have been recorded but I had to pay for it? Anyway hackers/researchers gave a presentation where they gave their findings but didn't actually achieve anything noteworthy. They interfaced with the usb cable and got some prompts. If I am wrong - school me. Please. Seriously.

It sounds cool to write about so a couple of news outlets covered it. Not sure why you're all laughing like I'm a retard. idiot. Nothing has changed and nothing new. If there is something new then

This is directly contrary to what Kewl claims. These researchers had this thing and sat around for weeks if not months trying to crack it and had no luck. Kewl did it in 15 minutes. Or .. maybe.. just maybe Kewl didn't. lol

[accountinquestion]

ALso Miiickey - I never said I was a hacker expert. I do have a minor in EE from the the best public uni in a rather large region. I could list all the stuff I did back in the day but the point is you don't need to be a "hacker expert" to interpret what the fucking researchers actually said.

It is like I do some basic reading and I get accused of being a know-it-all because Mickey's interests are likely very much more narrow than mine. Mine have just moved around over the years. As it is I'm actually actively working on a device that uses stepping motors to do measured things. It will have to be calibrated and such but runs off a microncontrooler and stepping motor driver. Shrug. believe me if you want or don't but I'm sure I'm far closer to a hacker than any other poster on here and it isn't close. IDGAF outside this post.

Redietz made fun of me for being a "polymath"... now Mickey doing same thing. Never actually telling me where I'm wrong. Ignorant bastards.

[kewlJ]

FraudJ is such a clueless loser. As much jokes I say about him I don't recall ever misrepresenting what he says. FraudJ, I never said manipulating wasn't possible. You claimed there was a built-in mode which WAS NOT A HACK. That is a totally different thing.

I also never said I didn't listen to their podcasts. That shuffler thing isn't a story. Literally all there is to know is my synopsis. Go ahead and be pissed. IDGAF. No one as usual wants to argue actual points/details. I will listen to it but not anything high priority.. they are presenting it like there is something there. Ok. I don't disagree there isn't stuff there but it doesn't come from what they're referencing.

FraudJ Go lower your cellphone back through the manhole and duck your head down where you belong. Back to the tunnels with you.

AinQ, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Have you had your hands on one of these machines? NO, you haven't. Not just myself, but many have and know and aren't just throwing out bullshit like you are.

The technology is there!! It is all but built in. Note that terminology. It is very, VERY thinly veiled so when the shit hits the fan, that the manufacturer can claim it doesn't come that way but must be "hacked". That is a joke. The hack takes a few minutes for someone that knows what they are doing (and casinos all have such a person in their employ) and it doesn't involve a USB port or downloading anything.

And the even bigger crime is that Nevada Gaming has known all about this problem for a decade and done little about it. There is an argument to be made that gaming is overmatched with all the new technology. They don't have the resources, nor the expertise to deal with this and future tectological challenges. That is not really what they were set up for. So they have basically just stuck their head in the sand hoping this problem goes away or at least doesn't expand into a bigger problem. So far that has worked.

AinQ, all you do is sit there and call people names like the little bitch troll that you are.

[accountinquestion]

FraudJ is such a clueless loser. As much jokes I say about him I don't recall ever misrepresenting what he says. FraudJ, I never said manipulating wasn't possible. You claimed there was a built-in mode which WAS NOT A HACK. That is a totally different thing.

I also never said I didn't listen to their podcasts. That shuffler thing isn't a story. Literally all there is to know is my synopsis. Go ahead and be pissed. IDGAF. No one as usual wants to argue actual points/details. I will listen to it but not anything high priority.. they are presenting it like there is something there. Ok. I don't disagree there isn't stuff there but it doesn't come from what they're referencing.

FraudJ Go lower your cellphone back through the manhole and duck your head down where you belong. Back to the tunnels with you.

AinQ, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Have you had your hands on one of these machines? NO, you haven't. Not just myself, but many have and know and aren't just throwing out bullshit like you are.

The technology is there!! It is all but built in. Note that terminology. It is very, VERY thinly veiled so when the shit hits the fan, that the manufacturer can claim it doesn't come that way but must be "hacked". That is a joke. The hack takes a few minutes for someone that knows what they are doing (and casinos all have such a person in their employ) and it doesn't involve a USB port or downloading anything.

And the even bigger crime is that Nevada Gaming has known all about this problem for a decade and done little about it. There is an argument to be made that gaming is overmatched with all the new technology. They don't have the recourses, nor the expertise to deal with this and future tectological challenges. That is not really what they were set up for. So they have basically just stuck their head in the sand hoping this problem goes away or at least doesn't expand into a bigger problem. So far that has worked.

AinQ, all you do is sit there and call people names like the little bitch troll that you are.

Complete and utter rubbish. I'm not going to even pick apart this crap above. lol

AinQ, all you do is sit there and call people names like the little bitch troll that you are.

Yea, thats all I do.

Oh WAIT ! I forget. I talk of actual reality.

Until you do that I don't think you can really talk about anyone else.. lol.

[accountinquestion]

Just to clarify for people reading.

Yes the shufflers have the ability to cheat. There are a few layers and degrees to which this would happen.

#1 There is some way to update the code on the thing via a firmware update. This is almost a given but maybe not. If this was hacked then game over. Someone inside the org could release the firmware updater tech. Then it would simply be a matter of reuploading a modified version of the code. Ultimately it is limited to not being able to communicate with anyone unless the USB port was then used as I/O after this update.

#2 There could be a hardware modification where the controller guts are completely replaced. This would be a one-off type deal. The irony of it all and I believe I've said this is that I have a strong reason to believe this does exist through personal experience. Contrary to what FraudJ yammers on about. This might allow the communication to work far better. A little bluetooth thingy could be inside it that would connect to some android device. Could be wifi. The rest of it really wouldn't be super hard. Way over my head but give me a year and all teh tools at my disposal I'm sure I could do this. I might need some help but.. Just hardware controllers to drive all the little motors. Communicating with sensors. Shuffle. spit out cards. What would be interesting is fucking up the deck and seeing if it behaves the same. If the thing has been gutted and recreated then it is unlikely to have all the little checks the real version does...

#3 Then there is what FraudJ claims. That is there are the equivalent of Nintendo cheat-codes which put the shuffler in cheat mode for table games. FraudJ basically claims this was done by the manufacturer as he bought a random shuffler.

#4 There might be some replaceable chip but it would require proprietary knowledge.

There are also poker shufflers vs casino shufflers. I'm throwing them together but there is a distinction. My experience involves the poker shuffler while Kewl's experience is with a table game shuffler.
There are also earlier generation shufflers which can't sort or read the cards. They may or may not count the cards but they can't read the cards. That is the key part for any of the above cheats to work. If the shuffler doesn't have the hardware to read the cards then it is all a deadend.

As far as what can and has happened ?

Either of the first 2 could be true. The hackers didn't do #2 but #2 is clearly possible. They're not reinventing satellites with alien tech. #1 is possible but it might actually require a chip being swapped out. That would be a #4 which is basically #1.

FraudJ's claim of #3 is rubbish. The manufacturer isn't ever going to do this and they're for sure not going to do it in a way that someone FraudJ hired of Craigslist can figure out in 15 minutes. But come'on guys, the Nevada Gaming Commission is in on it !!

Troll away but this pretty much sums it up. Yes, shufflers are an interest of mine.