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Thread: I'm changing my strategy for playing craps.

  1. #21
    Regnis and Allan great to meet you. Craps players love to talk craps! Wish I was on that table when you rolled 18 8's. My 6 & 8 Power Press taught to me by a Cuban Bally's dealer named Julio (he looks and sounds just like Pacino in Scarface) would have made a small fortune:

    $30 1st hit, Power Press $1 and go to $66
    $66 2nd hit, Power Press $7 and go to $150
    $150 3rd hit, press to $300, $25 goes to hard 6, parlay if it hits
    $300 4th hit, same bet, $25 to goes to hard 8, parlay if it hits
    $300 5th hit, Power Press $10 and go to $660
    $660 6th hit, depending how you feeling, same bet or Power Press $70 and go to $1500
    $1500 7th hit, same bet
    $1500 8th hit, press to $3000

    That's the farthest I've ever been but my goal (dream) is to reach the Table Limit and ask the Floor Manager permission to raise the limit. 18 8s must have been a surreal, dreamlike roll. One of those sessions where the dice just does not seven. I simply Love Craps! Love the Fire Bet!

  2. #22
    There is a funny background to that 18 8's roll russ. We actually had to be in Los Angeles Monday morning at 9:00 for a big closing on a sale of a business. So rather than fly to LA on Thursday I convinced my law partner to fly to Vegas instead, and fly from Vegas to LA early Monday morning. Of course, we were supposed to work on finalization of the deal while in Vegas, but not much of that was taking place, and we had all calls to our office forwarded to our cell phones so the client didn't know where we were.

    Anyway--we flew to LA at 5:00 A.M. Monday morning thinking we would get the deal done quickly and be back on a flight to Vegas by noon. But the lawyer in LA was just as unprepared as us and the closing kept dragging on and we kept calling and deferring our flight back to Vegas another hour.

    Finally, we got back to Vegas about 4:00; raced to the crap table, and I had the 18 8's in an hour and 26 minute roll. We made a huge fee for the closing and more at the craps table. What a parlay.

  3. #23
    reginis... did you deduct the Vegas bills as a business expense?

  4. #24
    Congrats on the closing and the monster heater! Great story! I thought you were going say the monster roll caused you to miss the flight and the closing...

    One hour and 26 minute roll--must have been surreal, like the table in another dimension. Were you at table limit on the 8? Still one of my goals (dreams). Thanks for sharing.

    My first 6 point Fire Bet was about a 50 minute hand by this Mexican Guy and his girlfriend. He did not have a Fire Bet but he kept saying in a stereotypical Hispanic accent "This is the best roll in my life man!". He kept ordering 2 coronas at a time and actually asked the table if he could take a break to go pee! Everyone in unison said "no". He kept rolling and rolling and eventually marked and nailed the sixth number. The dealers, the shooters and I were both dancing!!! Incredibly there was a DP player next to me!!!! After he finally seven ed out I he sprinted to the bathroom.

    I love craps. Nothing like it as far as I'm concerned.

  5. #25
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    reginis... did you deduct the Vegas bills as a business expense?
    I actually felt cheated because, since the rooms are comped in Vegas, I couldn't pass on to the client. Of course, I could have added 350 a night as if i had stayed in a nice BH hotel in Cal.


    Actually Russ--I made the flight that time but did miss a flight once before then. In the old days when you took a cab to the airport about 45 minutes before the flight, I had $30 left and 1 hour til my flight. Horrible game and a couple guys loud and obnoxious making tons on the dont. I was stepping away from the table with my $30 to leave--but the dont guys passed the dice and I was next. So I put my $30 on the line and rolled for 1 hour and 40 minutes. It was during the rodeo and the cowboys were all over me. They put me up in a suite for the night and took me to dinner and some other unmentionable entertainment.

    There is nothing like craps but those rolls are so few and far between. Luckily, I made killings on the good ones and profited--but only slightly-in craps. Far better than I ever have done in VP.

  6. #26
    Regnis:

    Down to your last $30 and then you kill it with a 1 hour 40 minute roll, get adopted by the high rolling Cowboys for a night out on the town, treated to a suite and miss your flight!!!! Damn, that's better than Papa Georgio in National Lampoon's Vegas Vacation! I absolutely love it! I'm adding missing my flight due to a hot roll to my list of goals (dreams). My wife is still waiting for me to win big, pay cash for a Vercace or Gucci Dress from the mannequin in the windows at Bellagio and pay cash to upgrade to 1st Class for the trip home. That's her Dream.

    As you mentioned cowboys, it sounds like your talking about early December. We go every year with our family of 14 or so for the first week of December. Perhaps we'll be on the same table one day and you can do one of your hour+ rolls!!!
    How about 19 8s just for a new record! I need to start planning my next trip!

  7. #27
    Supposedly, at Caesars about three years ago, two guys were at a craps table by themselves in the middle of the day. They were not experienced gamblers. In fact, I was told they were in town for one of the electronics shows. According to the story (believe it if you will) one of the two held the dice for two and a half hours and together they left the table with LESS than one-thousand dollars.

    Now, that's the story. I was there that weekend, and the story came from some of the pit folks.

    These two guys never pressed, just bet passline ($10 then) with single odds or no odds, and maybe one or two numbers for the minimum. Of course a roll lasting two and a half hours would probably have attracted some attention... but this one didn't... so I don't know if the story is true or not.

    Just thought I'd mention it because in reality there are many monster rolls where players never press.

    One other thought: do you really know how long a roll/hand lasts? At craps, and in casinos in general, we lose reference to time. There are no clocks, no windows, no natural light or natural darkness to help us gauge the passing of time. So one day I did an experiment at the craps table. I decided to time each and every shooter from the moment they got the dice presented to them.

    Then one shooter has a long roll. It was good one, too. Everyone at the table cleaned up. My original $135 across put about a thousand dollars in my rail. And when the shooter finally sevened out, I asked the players on my side of the table -- and the base dealer -- how long they thought his roll lasted? The "guesses" ranged from 25 minutes to 30 minutes. In reality, that shooter had the dice for TWELVE MINUTES. That's all. TWELVE MINUTES.

    In 12 minutes he rolled approximately 40 times. Each roll at a $25 table returned a minimum $35 for the numbers, plus he rolled a few passes.

  8. #28
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    In reality, that shooter had the dice for TWELVE MINUTES. That's all. TWELVE MINUTES.

    In 12 minutes he rolled approximately 40 times.
    Sounds like a BIG FISH story to me.

    I have found that TIME that the shooter holds the dice is very unreliable to how well the shooter's hand went.
    It is all about the number of actual dice rolls made and the winning bets made.

    I played a few weeks back at CP and at a full table and when the shooter got hot, the dice rolls slowed way down.
    The Dealer told me that is what really happens unless just a few players are making bets.
    Everyone is getting paid, hardways and Horns are being bet and paid off and pressed and parlayed... and the dice are lucky to roll one time every 60 seconds.


    Your math for 40 rolls on a HOT table comes to 18 seconds per roll. (12*60 / 40)
    No way Sir.

    I think you need to have a counter or a pen/paper with you from now on.
    I see players with them.


    Time and actual facts at a Craps table during play gets distorted, BIG TIME.

    I think Albert Einstein did a formula on it that helped him with the General Relativity formula.

    Next time, please have some actual dice roll data to present.
    I keep my little notebook in my purse.
    You could keep yours in a fanny pack.

    See you at the tables!
    Sally

    ps
    I like your idea just pass/odds and the Firebet.
    Good Luck trying to stick to it!!

  9. #29
    Gee Sally, thanks for calling me a liar.

    The table wasn't full. The dealers were fast. There wasn't much pressing.

    But if you want a fish story, the one I have is the one about the big one that got away.

    What you just did, unfortunately, is what a lot of "math smart" people do. And they do this not only for casino gambling but in business and even in social matters to a certain degree. They look at the facts presented but put them into their own perspectives.

    In your case you put it into the perspective of what you experience when you play -- full table, horns and hardways hitting, perhaps slow pays, long time to roll, etc.

    In this case, it was a shooter who picked 'em up and threw them. If I recall, there was one player on his side of the table, and there were two players on my side of the table. Hardways and horns were not being bet and I don't recall hardways even hitting. It was just number after number and only a couple of passes. There was minimal pressing.

    How did I keep track? As I said, at that session I checked my watch each time a shooter got the dice. How do I keep track of the rolls? As I always do, putting the payoffs in order as they come in barber-shop-pole style and the payoffs were either $35 each or when I had a couple of numbers pressed $70 each.

    Calculators and timers and pen and paper are not needed.
    Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 12-14-2012 at 05:52 PM.

  10. #30
    As I am a steady $10 + $1 for the Dealer Fire Bet player, the Dealers always tell me what happens after I left the table. The most painful story was a table that supposedly hit two 6 Point Fire bets after I left for dinner!!! Ouch!

    The actual length of time a roll lasts used to be easy to estimate as Dealers went on a break every 20 minutes. If the same shooter was still rolling when they got back, that was 20 minutes.That has recently changed at Caesars Casinos. A couple of weeks ago at Paris/Bally's/Caesars, the major topic of discussion by the Dealers was the new Caesars Co. decision to limit the number of breaks they get per shift. Confusion as to who went to stick, base right or base left...It was very noticeable that both the dealers and suits were confused and unhappy with the reduction in breaks and having to work as long as 1 hour 20 minutes on stick without a break (mentally exhausting). Apparently, Caesars Co. wanted 10% of the Tips or a reduction in breaks. Just another cost cutting addition by Caesars-Harrahs (remember when they eliminated the Boxman).

    Anyway, it didn't stop us from having fun but as I have come to know some of these Dealers over the years it is sad to here that Caesars Co continue to make cuts to their livelihood. Gotta pay for the Linq and the giant ferris wheel aptly named the High Roller and Bills Casino renovation somehow!

  11. #31
    The only reason I had times for those rolls is that the floor man told me--I assume it is close and once the roll gets going I do peak at the time.

    Russ--It was early December because we always used to go to Vegas for my birthday--and we did go during the rodeo just cause those guys are fun to play craps with.

    The 4 hour roll in Atlantic city a couple years ago they didn't get beat for any $$$ because it was all beginners. Put that roll at Caesars on a saturday night and it's millions.

  12. #32
    [QUOTE=russkg;9217]That has recently changed at Caesars Casinos. A couple of weeks ago at Paris/Bally's/Caesars, the major topic of discussion by the Dealers was the new Caesars Co. decision to limit the number of breaks they get per shift. Confusion as to who went to stick, base right or base left...It was very noticeable that both the dealers and suits were confused and unhappy with the reduction in breaks and having to work as long as 1 hour 20 minutes on stick without a break (mentally exhausting). Apparently, Caesars Co. wanted 10% of the Tips or a reduction in breaks. Just another cost cutting addition by Caesars-Harrahs (remember when they eliminated the Boxman).

    No sympathy here--I used to be on stick for 6 hours with 2 20 minute potty breaks. My employers were shall we say a little more demanding and not ones to take kindly to complaints. But the pay dwarfed what dealers in legal casinos make.

  13. #33
    It's been ten years since the casinos started to tamper with the formula of the craps gaming operations.

    Boxmen first, then Wynn and the tip pool, and now changing shift breaks?

    Article from 2004 about the boxmen changes: http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_ho.../24621012.html

  14. #34
    I still remember tables with 2 box men. Here in Illinois, suprisingly, we still have box men. I think because the dealers are way less qualified then in Vegas.

  15. #35
    Ironically, in Vegas the floorman who used to supervise the boxman and double check the boxman now performs what the boxman used to do, and shares part of the money handling with the dealers. The elimination of the boxmen delayed the game, cut down on game protection, deleted a pair of eyes for player security and I doubt really saved the casinos money. Which brings to mind this clip from the movie Casino:


  16. #36
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    The 4 hour roll in Atlantic city a couple years ago they didn't get beat for any $$$ because it was all beginners. Put that roll at Caesars on a saturday night and it's millions.
    I will never forget the night at Caesars when it literally took 5 minutes for one roll of the dice at a hot table. The shooter had already held the dice for about ten minutes and (yes, it was a Saturday night) and a bunch of wealthy people with their wives were at the table literally arguing over whether or not to press their bets, take them down, or leave them up for each and every throw. They were arguing because each player now had $100+ on each number.

    Now, that is not a lot of money, but to these folks who probably come to Vegas once a year, it was.

    And it really took five minutes not only for the arguing between couples, but also telling the dealers to do one thing and then telling them to do something else.

    The hand continued for another half hour... which was about five more rolls.

  17. #37
    I am not certain where or how I discovered this Forum Alan but thank you! I love it!

    Regnis: So you used to deal craps! I love it! A few years ago, Dealers at Bally's asked me if I wanted to join them after work to drink and shoot craps at Fitzgeralds when their shift ended at 400AM. I was tempted but declined their offer as my wife strongly opposed the invitation. They told me that they basically try to turn $150 into $1500 but normally they just need to unwind before going home. Funny but the other thing they like to do after work is bowling! Their inspiration is this Craps Dealer Glenn who turned $150 into $15,000 via Hard 8 parlayed 4 times! The allure of craps! Imagine that you work 8 hours dealing craps and then after work go and play craps for fun! Its a powerfully addicting game. Tough to win, but it sure is fun trying!

    I gotta say it again. I love craps! oh and I love the Fire Bet!

  18. #38
    A couple of years ago at Bally's, an intoxicated DP players showed up with a brown paper bag of cash: $50,000. Game came to a stop as the dealers counted it. Counting cash used to be a Boxman's job. Anyway, the guy lost the $50,000 and came back with another brown paper bag of cash: another $50,000. Game stopped again. He lost that and returned with two more bags. This time the Casino Manager took him to the Cage and they counted it in the machine so that the game could keep going. Its hard to believe but Paris/Ballys eliminated the Boxman back in 2003. Thanks for the link to the article Alan.

    Noticed the new CRAPS electronic game (big Red Dice in a dome in the center) in all the casinos this time. Rapid Craps over at Bill's has yet to spread but with the shutdown of Bills next year, my guess is that game gets a new home: maybe Bally's. 10-12 years ago, Bally's had 10 or more Craps tables. Today only three remain. Hopefully its not a sign of things to come for the game I love.

  19. #39
    Did you notice who was quoted in the article?
    Caesars also has fewer craps tables than several years ago.

  20. #40
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Did you notice who was quoted in the article?
    Caesars also has fewer craps tables than several years ago.
    Speaking of craps tables. If I remember correctly, Aria has quite a bit of them! I think at least at 10. Bellagio also has more tables than any CET property. I wish Caesars would add more, but the only time the tables are full are usually during the weekends so I can see why they don't operate too many more. Also, at Caesars, I always see at least one and maybe two tables manned with a crazy min bet and no action. It's crazy what they will do for high rollers lol.

    Over at Rincon, they are going to add two more tables where the current tables are. Sweeet.

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