backoffs, baring and play restrictions

[kewlJ]

I received my second 'play restriction' for lack of a better term in the past couple weeks for this year. The first was widely discussed, so I am not going to rehash that. This one not as severe, but still different than the probably 60-70 (maybe even slightly more) polite backoffs I have received in my 14 years of play in Vegas.

I was told I was done playing blackjack. It wasn't made clear if this was for that day and temporary (backoff) or more permanent. BUT I was also told I must leave the casino and actually escorted across the floor and out the front door. Since I was not read the trespass act, nor was there any mention of me not allowed to return, I view this as nothing more than a backoff, just with a little bit of intimidation tactic thrown in for good measure. I do worry a little bit that should I return at a later time, they may claim they told me I could not return. We will see.

Ordinarily 2 actions of this kind would be a very good year for me. Something feels different about these encounters this year. The tone. That "polite back off", that I have become so familiar with during my time in Vegas, has been missing from these actions. Small sample size, which is why I would love to hear anyone else's experiences in this area, of course recognizing there aren't many APs playing a lot of blackjack these days.

And I would like to conclude with an even broader question. Since there are APs doing many different things on this forum. Do non-table game AP's get "backed off"? Has anyone ever been told you can play any other game but not video poker? Or any slot AP been told you can play anything else, but no more slots? I have never heard anyone mention this. Or is the "backoff" limited to blackjack and table games?

[MaxPen]

I received my second 'play restriction' for lack of a better term in the past couple weeks for this year. The first was widely discussed, so I am not going to rehash that. This one not as severe, but still different than the probably 60-70 (maybe even slightly more) polite backoffs I have received in my 14 years of play in Vegas.

I was told I was done playing blackjack. It wasn't made clear if this was for that day and temporary (backoff) or more permanent. BUT I was also told I must leave the casino and actually escorted across the floor and out the front door. Since I was not read the trespass act, nor was there any mention of me not allowed to return, I view this as nothing more than a backoff, just with a little bit of intimidation tactic thrown in for good measure. I do worry a little bit that should I return at a later time, they may claim they told me I could not return. We will see.

Ordinarily 2 actions of this kind would be a very good year for me. Something feels different about these encounters this year. The tone. That "polite back off", that I have become so familiar with during my time in Vegas, has been missing from these actions. Small sample size, which is why I would love to hear anyone else's experiences in this area, of course recognizing there aren't many APs playing a lot of blackjack these days.

And I would like to conclude with an even broader question. Since there are APs doing many different things on this forum. Do non-table game AP's get "backed off"? Has anyone ever been told you can play any other game but not video poker? Or any slot AP been told you can play anything else, but no more slots? I have never heard anyone mention this. Or is the "backoff" limited to blackjack and table games?

Sounds like you need to get a gym membership for shower access so you can get rid of that tunnel scent.

[Treeshade]

I received my second 'play restriction' for lack of a better term in the past couple weeks for this year. The first was widely discussed, so I am not going to rehash that. This one not as severe, but still different than the probably 60-70 (maybe even slightly more) polite backoffs I have received in my 14 years of play in Vegas.

I was told I was done playing blackjack. It wasn't made clear if this was for that day and temporary (backoff) or more permanent. BUT I was also told I must leave the casino and actually escorted across the floor and out the front door. Since I was not read the trespass act, nor was there any mention of me not allowed to return, I view this as nothing more than a backoff, just with a little bit of intimidation tactic thrown in for good measure. I do worry a little bit that should I return at a later time, they may claim they told me I could not return. We will see.

Ordinarily 2 actions of this kind would be a very good year for me. Something feels different about these encounters this year. The tone. That "polite back off", that I have become so familiar with during my time in Vegas, has been missing from these actions. Small sample size, which is why I would love to hear anyone else's experiences in this area, of course recognizing there aren't many APs playing a lot of blackjack these days.

And I would like to conclude with an even broader question. Since there are APs doing many different things on this forum. Do non-table game AP's get "backed off"? Has anyone ever been told you can play any other game but not video poker? Or any slot AP been told you can play anything else, but no more slots? I have never heard anyone mention this. Or is the "backoff" limited to blackjack and table games?

No backoffs for straight alpha males at blackjack. Mostly gay or bi men get backed off now. Computer program AI can now determine who’s gay or bi and that plays into the Vegas back off scene. There have been reports that some players didn’t even know they were gay until the back off.

[MDawg]

And I gotta argue, as a final point, that from a probability perspective, the kewlJ-as-male-whore angle isn't all that nuts. When you ask yourself what's more likely, male escort posing as blackjack player, or blackjack player making it for a decade at 100K a year in LV itself, the former is more likely.

The only sort of back off FraudJ experiences:

[kewlJ]

These trolling responses are really no surprise.

Seedvalue, you are incorrect. In the scenario you suggest the casino sees itself as the alpha male, so would feel most threatened by the presence of another perceived alpha male.

But that is just theory. In reality, backoffs occur right at the table, or steps away if they request you step away from the table. The casino always looks like the bad guy, the bully when doing a backoff. And even more so if there is even the appearance that it could be discriminatory. It is just bad business. It is a bad look.

For this reason, I know several card counters, including one pretty well known guy on some of these forums (not this one) that would actually pretend to be gay, believing it improves longevity. Not all the time but in the right circumstance. I know the haters on this forum think or want to believe I am effeminate type gay guy, when I am not, but I also did play that part several times earlier in my career.

But in the long-run, I decided it wasn't beneficial to do so. My game has always been about not rocking the boat. Play limits that are well tolerated, playing short sessions, so no one has to answer for you. Don't do anything that rocks the boat or makes you more memorable. And this conflicted with that goal. So I abandoned that long ago.

[smurgerburger]

I wonder what limit is well tolerated in Las Vegas for 20 years straight. May spreading from 1 to 3 red chips?

[kewlJ]

I wonder what limit is well tolerated in Las Vegas for 20 years straight. May spreading from 1 to 3 red chips?

I haven't been in Vegas for 20 straight years smart ass.

But the real answer is green to mid black if you are a player who plays frequently, which I was for my first 10-11 years in Vegas. Not everywhere of course or even at all times. You have to figure which casinos have what tolerance levels and when. $500 max Bets happens to be a very key threshold for this. Stay below that threshold and you draw far less attention than $500 and above.

But you weren't really looking for a real answer were you. Just to troll.

[smurgerburger]

I wasn't looking for a real answer because there is no real answer. People have been backed off, probably even databased, for playing much smaller than $500 max bets in LV.

[MDawg]

You blindly latch onto whatever anyone says that supports your narrative instead of doing your own research....RIP

Which of course fits the pattern of that he doesn't actually play and lifts anything he has to say from other sources.

All these FraudJ posts follow a clear recognizable pattern.

First he spouts off some sort of theory he lifted or heard from somewhere. After being challenged, tosses in one or two "APs" he knows or who know him to back up his theory. None of whom will ever be named. And then includes of course a rehash of his entire worn smooth through years of use desperate blackjack story including at least one or more of the following: that he's won what he expected, what that figure is so far and how many years he's been doing this. Loves to toss in the word "professional" when the only "pro" adjective that may be used to describe him concerns prostitution.

KJ is different because (1) I initially believed him, more or less, and (2) he is imo a complete fraud. I don't mean a liar, I mean a complete fraud, like catfish style. And that is not something you see every day and is really kind of fascinating.

[kewlJ]

I wasn't looking for a real answer because there is no real answer. People have been backed off, probably even databased, for playing much smaller than $500 max bets in LV.

Of course they have. No one ever said this is a model that works everywhere, and all the time. A player needs to figure out where and when what is tolerated, if you are going to be serious about your play and want to achieve some longevity.

[Ray Finkle]

All these FraudJ posts follow a clear recognizable pattern.

First he spouts off some sort of theory he lifted or hear from somewhere. After being challenged, tosses in one or two "APs" he knows or who know him to back up his theory. None of whom will ever be named. And then includes of course a rehash of his entire worn smooth through years of use desperate blackjack story including at least one or more of the following: that he's won what he expected, what that figure is so far and how many years he's been doing this. Loves to toss in the word "professional" when the only "pro" adjective that may be used to describe him concerns prostitution.

KJ is different because (1) I initially believed him, more or less, and (2) he is imo a complete fraud. I don't mean a liar, I mean a complete fraud, like catfish style. And that is not something you see every day and is really kind of fascinating.

Crap

Now he's gonna call 60 minutes and get both you and Dan thrown in jail....

[smurgerburger]

I wasn't looking for a real answer because there is no real answer. People have been backed off, probably even databased, for playing much smaller than $500 max bets in LV.

Of course they have. No one ever said this is a model that works everywhere, and all the time. A player needs to figure out where and when what is tolerated, if you are going to be serious about your play and want to achieve some longevity.

You aren't going to find 20 years longevity anywhere in LV at stakes high enough to care about.

In a way you're a victim of your success (as a fraudster I mean). You didn't quite consider that your story of being a "mid-stakes pro counter that plays just within tolerance levels", which a lot of people considered immediately suspect, would become more improbable with each passing year.

There really aren't that many casinos (especially that take big enough action for you to make your alleged income without getting a lot of sweat), and there aren't that many pit bosses (even if you are willing to perpetually vary your sleep schedule). Every pit boss in town would recognize you by now.

[kewlJ]

Mdawg you are an idiot, you really are. Beside the troll that you are, you are stupid, at least in this regard.

Trolls like Mdawg and Singer get tripped up, actually trip themselves up when their story changes over the years. My story of how I play blackjack and what works or has worked for me, has never changed one iota. because of that, the haters now come up with "well rehearsed" or "worn smooth". What nonsense. The fact is there is nothing to rehearse or remember.

Very similarly, what is learning and knowledge? With gambling as many things in like, you learn by experience including mistakes. Trial and error. You also learn by other players experiences, including what is written in books and on forums, as well as networking and private conversations.

I have learned a great deal from other players, books, forums, personal private conversations. Haters seem to think that a negative. It's not. I am proud of that.

But here is what you won't find in anything I share. Complete bullshit like, $100-$5000 spread playing double deck on the strip, while the Pit pats you on the back.

Mdawg, you are a good writer. You have a good imagination. But what you claim is just not the way things work. Even Shackleford who it seems like you control said that (about your $100-$5000 spread). And you attempting to tear anyone and everyone down that says so, is not going to change that one little bit.

If I was to come out and confess that I am a pig farmer living outside El Paso, it wouldn't change anything about your claims and story. It would still be complete BS. You simply can't raise yourself up or gain credibility by attempting to tear someone else down. It doesn't work that way. Your claims have to stand on their own, and they just don't.

[kewlJ]

There really aren't that many casinos (especially that take big enough action for you to make your alleged income without getting a lot of sweat), and there aren't that many pit bosses (even if you are willing to perpetually vary your sleep schedule). Every pit boss in town would recognize you by now.

There are plenty of casinos that take mid-level action $25 to $300, or $400 without even a blink all week long.

I always had a rotation of at least 30 of these casinos. Some of the smaller ones I would only play 1 or twice a month. A little bigger, (think stations), you could play at least several times a month, if not once a week as long as you don't make it Tuesday afternoon at Sam's town or Sunset station, every Tuesday afternoon. And some of the bigger places (think strip or 1 or 2 downtown) you could definitely play every week, especially if they have 2 or more pits. Really big places with 3-4 pits, you could play multiple times a week, although I never pushed it to that.

None of this happens by accident though. You have to figure this out.

And your comments about pit, makes me think you know little about pit people. Do you know anyone that works the pit in a Las Vegas casino, especially a locals type casino? These people are just working Joe's. They just want to make it through their day and get home with as little hassle as possible. You know backoffs and barrings require the filing of a report. That world be extra work. They are not seeking that out. But by the same token, they don't want to have to answer for anything including large wins. You balance that out by playing short sessions and limits that create fewer large type wins....that anyone does have to answer for.

The exception to this is a new gung ho type pit person. They are looking to make a name, to impress someone higher up, so these general rules don't apply. luckily, you can spot such a pit person a mile away.

Smurgerburger, you like several others here, used to be a normal level-headed guy. You, like those others are just blinded by hate and whatever bias you have now. It is so fucking easy to spot, because I can say the sky is blue and you will fight me.

[smurgerburger]

I have dealt with plenty of pit bosses and your comments make me think you have not. They get to recognize you pretty quickly, and though that doesn't mean instant backoff it also doesn't mean twenty years of longevity.

Furthermore while trespasses require paperwork backoffs do not seem to. They often aren't even communicated across shifts.

You 30 casinos that take $500 bets comfortably (from a young white guy at that) are not the same as your Sam's Town where according to you the pit won't back you off because they are "working Joes".

You're trying to have it both ways. If you're playing big enough then you're not playing locals casinos and surveillance is quite good at catching counters, even if they do play relatively low. If you're playing Orleans or wherever you're not playing big enough for your claims to be true.

[kewlJ]

You seem to think that pit and or dealers "recognizing" you, equates to counter-measures. THAT has NOT been my experience. My experience is you have to do something to cause them a headache or problem for them to cause you a problem. One such thing would be a win of 5, 6, 8 grand. Short sessions and mid-level stakes of a max bet of $400 or so makes such a win less likely and less frequent which translates to less problems. Instead you will have more smaller wins divided over more days and places. Of course you will still register some wins that draw attention, like a shoe that is just remarkably good, winning many of your big bets. (Don't you just hate when that happens....lol). But the point is there are things a player can do to minimize these situations that draw attention and cause problems.

I have never said, some pit and dealers don't recognize me. I have conversations with some that are running conversations, like about sports. One pit guy actually welcomed me back on the first day I played after my last heart surgery. This means he not only knew me as the guy from Philly that talked eagles with him at times, but read the forums and knew exactly who I was. And the most problems I ever had with him were a couple polite backoffs where he said "I think that is enough for today".

I am not saying every pit person is like that, but they all aren't out to create problems where there is none either. Sometimes I feel like you almost have to rock the boat to have a problem.

[smurgerburger]

Oh so now you're no longer flying under the radar but decades long pals with pit bosses who smile while you put out your $500 max bets.

Another problem, if you're always quitting before big wins you'll never get in the hours you need. At a locals place $5k unrated is a very noticeable win...but only 10 max bets for you.

[MaxPen]

I have never said, some pit and dealers don't recognize me. I have conversations with some that are running conversations, like about sports. One pit guy actually welcomed me back on the first day I played after my last heart surgery. This means he not only knew me as the guy from Philly that talked eagles with him at times, but read the forums and knew exactly who I was. And the most problems I ever had with him were a couple polite backoffs where he said "I think that is enough for today".

Fraud Clown.....RIP

[kewlJ]

Oh so now you're no longer flying under the radar but decades long pals with pit bosses who smile while you put out your $500 max bets.

Another problem, if you're always quitting before big wins you'll never get in the hours you need. At a locals place $5k unrated is a very noticeable win...but only 10 max bets for you.

I NEVER EVER said I flew under the radar. That is not what I do. That is something from last century before I even started playing. It seems whenever someone decides they don't like me or don't believe me, they start putting words in my mouth and claiming I said things I never have. Why is that? Why can't you just be honest.

I don't think any blackjack card counter has explained what they do and how they are able to do it and be welcome back in as much detail as I have. So there really should be no confusion. I feel like if you are putting words in my mouth and claiming things I never said (actually contrary to what I do and say) that it must be intentional.

It is NOT hours you need as a grinder type player, but rounds of play. And yes you can get them, playing a short-session move around style.

[kewlJ]

Fraud Clown.....RIP

Internet Troll....RIP