Fontainebleau Opens

[DGenBen]

Greed trumps common sense, be it in DC or LV.

Has ANY casino in sin city ever done as is suggested above, and if so how'd it go and why aren't they still doing it?

I don’t know the answer to that, but I can answer the opposite.

The reason long established casinos in the center of the strip can get away with offering horrible value in the games & otherwise gouging customers is because they are offering the experience of being in heart of Vegas & that’s what people are expecting & paying for. Plus they have long established customer bases.

When you’re new and in a shitty location, you can’t offer that same experience or rely on an established customer base so you have to try something different or go out of business.

Actually regarding your first question, locals casinos in Vegas off the strip & elsewhere usually offer better games, payback, etc. because that’s the only thing they can offer as a draw & they do it successfully.

[accountinquestion]

I'd like to see all the projections and known revenue numbers from strip casinos. Then see the cost to open fountain Bleu? I'm surprised a case could even be made to do this but I've never researched it. Ok it does well in a great year.. is that enough?. what happened to the fancy Chinese themed place? What about the old hard rock? (I forget what it is)

What happens when the customers are not enough to keep the high-end dining going? More losses?

Why not set machines at 93% and advertise like crazy?
... our machines are set to take half the money and other machines on the strip. Basic rooms, reasonable
Food options ... but have those machines full.

Loosest slots on the strip!

People definitely notice when their slot time is doubled before their trip bankroll is depleted.

I may very well be wrong but if I was given a casino to design ....

I had this same thought, you loosen everything up, advertise like crazy, even put in some good VP pay tables & advertise that.

The reason they are probably hesitant to do that is their model is based on being a high end place & they probably want to go after high end customers & not bring in the ugly value seeking masses.

Which is really dumb because when your ship is sinking, you bail out the water.

But as anyone whose worked for a large corporation would know, upper management of large organizations are often clueless.

There is also the possibility they have not even considered offering value as an option because the prevailing view in casino management today is that customers are too stupid and unaware to even notice slot holds or high house edge games, hence the prevalence of triple 0 roulette, 85% payback slot machines, 6/5 Jacks or better, etc.

Yea it makes sense. Basically 93 vs 85 means you get to pkay twice as long on a given bankroll. Surely you can convey that to people. Oh 93 vs 85. Who notices... well if you let them playv2x as long on the same bankroll. Get out of the big freeplay business.. what you say makes sense and if place is packed on weekends then maybe my advice is bad.. honestly a casino that adjusted rtp by day could be a huge advantage

[Rob.Singer]

In mid-2006 Wynn was having trouble meeting forecasts for a while. So as a well-known vp gaming columnist etc. I went in there asking for a meeting and to interview casino mgmt. They granted my request.

They weren't happy because they couldn't figure out why the local population just wouldn't come in to gamble and spend money at their resort. They were also being chided by the locals all throughout the media.

My idea was to set up a couple banks of full-pay vp 25c/50c/$1 machines with 10/7 DBP, 10/6 DDBP, 9/6 JoB, FPDW, and a few others. Of course, this was unlike what any other casinos in Nevada had to offer at the time. I also committed to announcing this in Gaming Today, with several continuing follow-up articles. After several weeks, they agreed and did in fact install these machines. 8 of them. It basically consisted of simply changing the pay tables upward.

The response was nothing short of overwhelming. All machines were suddenly being played 24 hours a day. But it turned out to be too successful. The first several weeks showed lower profit margins on these machines of course--but higher overall profits, and they permitted me to document this at the summary level in my column.

But there was also a big problem. Lots of people who read GT, vpFREE and other gaming resources came in from out-of-town hoping to get in on the new action. They stayed in the resort, but to their dismay, local shabilly dressed AP's, Chinese noodle slurpers, and teams took over the machines full-time, eating meals at them and using tag-team tactics when it came time for rest and potty breaks. Upper management decided this was not a good look for a 5 star resort that had a lot of high-end foreign & domestic visitors. The machines were ordered to have their lower pay tables reinstated. The fun was over.

Local big name players liked to claim that they killed the play by all their winning. But that was not the case. The casino manager allowed me to publicize those machines profit margins before and after, and as I said the margins were razor thin, while the overall profit improved due to non-stop play. It was acknowledged that slot club benefits basically created a more or less break-even play overall, and that's what I printed. Some players also booked rooms, and many purchased food.

So roping in locals doesn't always work, for one reason or the other. I tried to get them to include the $2 & $5 levels, but they didn't want to take the risk.

In the end they decided to offer my wife & I a 3-night full RFB stay in a suite for my effort and spotlighting--which I accepted. This, while I was in the middle years of hitting them as well as every other major Nv. casino for profits from the DU play. I did lose $14,000 with helter-skelter vp and a little bj play during our stay since I couldn't and wouldn't do what I normally do knowing my wife or now acquainted mgmt. figures could show up at my machine at any moment. I never put down the play there again for obvious reasons.

It was a very busy and glorious time.

[MDawg]

After the Pandemic, Venetian lowered hotel rates to where a group could rent out one of their largest suites, the one I typically stay in at Venetian, the 1850 sq. ft. Executive King Suite (formerly known as the Renaissance Suite):

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/ques...ms/#post821481

which has its own sauna, exercise room, and 6 person dining table,

for about $200. a night. Naturally the place attracted the wrong crowd, and for a while the Inglewood African American gang bangers were overrunning the place (even the African American shoeshine man was complaining to me...saying, "these black people aren't players, they aren't here to spend any money.").

And anyone who was a "front line worker" could get a free room at Venetian, and front line included jobs like...7-11 clerk!

Gradually, the regular crowd returned as hotel rates were increased back to normal.

Wynn experimented with lowering the rates, but after the results included a gang tussle inside the casino



where Wynn actually filed a lawsuit against those involved, they brought the rates back to the usual, and maintained their usual crowd, not caring if the numbers went down for a while. As a result, Wynn pretty much stayed the same during the period after the Pandemic shut down with its upscale crowd, while Venetian really went downhill until around the last year or two when things started turning back to normal.

No doubt UNKewlJ was frequenting the Venetian when it had its open door to bums policy, but you never hear him talking about the Wynn, where he is and always has been persona non grata.

[MDawg]

As far as the discussion about "Why doesn't Fontainebleau offer some better games to attract players," I don't know about slots, but their high limit does offer a 3:2 dealer stands on 17 double deck, which does offer about the lowest house edge in town. Even Cosmopolitan now has a 3:2 stand 17 DD, no doubt due to MGM's takeover.

[redietz]

In mid-2006 Wynn was having trouble meeting forecasts for a while. So as a well-known vp gaming columnist etc. I went in there asking for a meeting and to interview casino mgmt. They granted my request.

They weren't happy because they couldn't figure out why the local population just wouldn't come in to gamble and spend money at their resort. They were also being chided by the locals all throughout the media.

My idea was to set up a couple banks of full-pay vp 25c/50c/$1 machines with 10/7 DBP, 10/6 DDBP, 9/6 JoB, FPDW, and a few others. Of course, this was unlike what any other casinos in Nevada had to offer at the time. I also committed to announcing this in Gaming Today, with several continuing follow-up articles. After several weeks, they agreed and did in fact install these machines. 8 of them. It basically consisted of simply changing the pay tables upward.

The response was nothing short of overwhelming. All machines were suddenly being played 24 hours a day. But it turned out to be too successful. The first several weeks showed lower profit margins on these machines of course--but higher overall profits, and they permitted me to document this at the summary level in my column.

But there was also a big problem. Lots of people who read GT, vpFREE and other gaming resources came in from out-of-town hoping to get in on the new action. They stayed in the resort, but to their dismay, local shabilly dressed AP's, Chinese noodle slurpers, and teams took over the machines full-time, eating meals at them and using tag-team tactics when it came time for rest and potty breaks. Upper management decided this was not a good look for a 5 star resort that had a lot of high-end foreign & domestic visitors. The machines were ordered to have their lower pay tables reinstated. The fun was over.

Local big name players liked to claim that they killed the play by all their winning. But that was not the case. The casino manager allowed me to publicize those machines profit margins before and after, and as I said the margins were razor thin, while the overall profit improved due to non-stop play. It was acknowledged that slot club benefits basically created a more or less break-even play overall, and that's what I printed. Some players also booked rooms, and many purchased food.

So roping in locals doesn't always work, for one reason or the other. I tried to get them to include the $2 & $5 levels, but they didn't want to take the risk.

In the end they decided to offer my wife & I a 3-night full RFB stay in a suite for my effort and spotlighting--which I accepted. This, while I was in the middle years of hitting them as well as every other major Nv. casino for profits from the DU play. I did lose $14,000 with helter-skelter vp and a little bj play during our stay since I couldn't and wouldn't do what I normally do knowing my wife or now acquainted mgmt. figures could show up at my machine at any moment. I never put down the play there again for obvious reasons.

It was a very busy and glorious time.

I can verify portions (the non-DU portions) of this story, since I was one of the undesirables playing the machines occasionally. I never took it terribly seriously, as that wasn't my purpose for being in Las Vegas, but late night, mid-week, after checking Wynn numbers, I would occasionally get a seat. I was probably staying at the Budget Suites behind the Stardust at the time. I think that was the last year for the Stardust.

Now the interesting part of this is that yeah, maybe Wynn pulled the plug due to an overabundance of "undesirables." I was one of the better dressed men playing the machines late-night, which lead to the following paradox. I was routinely approached by the girls with rooms at Wynn. Wynn was notorious for "partnering" with certain working girls. Their preferred roster of such was not young knockouts, but older, although well-dressed, women who were not likely to win any beauty pageants. So Wynn employed a kind of dress code for allowing/facilitating "their" girls, but not a hotness code, so to speak. It was an interesting set of priorities.

Anyway, as I remember, my primary reason for playing was that minimal play would get you a comped Wynn buffet, which at the time was the best in town and within walking distance from where I was staying. So if I had a dead hour or two in the middle of the night, I'd walk over there and play a little bit. If you tried to get a seat during the day, most of the time they were full. I was kind of surprised you could get a seat at night, but you could. I don't remember exactly how long it lasted, maybe seven or eight weeks? The buffets were worth the effort.

[MisterV]

Here's a suggestion for casinos who want to do it differently.

Increase the RTP to a level clearly above that of your competitors, and advertise the fact.

If the "norm" is 91 or so, go up to 97, e.g.

To avoid vultures get rid of any machines known to be subject to vulturing.

[MDawg]

I believe those sorts of billboards used to be all over Vegas, advertising "loosest slots" and naming some figure like 97%. So, no matter how hard you try you will STILL lose 3%, would be what someone on the ball would realize, I would think?

But, I suppose for the average person who is just going to push dem buttons mindlessly regardless, the higher the percentage, the longer they will be able to keep pushin'.

[MisterV]

I believe those sorts of billboards used to be all over Vegas, advertising "loosest slots" and naming some figure like 97%. So, no matter how hard you try you will STILL lose 3%.

What is the known current RTP for strip casinos?

Whatever it is increase it half-way again and advertise this fact.

[smurgerburger]

I believe those sorts of billboards used to be all over Vegas, advertising "loosest slots" and naming some figure like 97%. So, no matter how hard you try you will STILL lose 3%.

What is the known current RTP for strip casinos?

Whatever it is increase it half-way again and advertise this fact.

This is an ill-advised strategy in general for a strip property and especially one whose finances depend on the higher profit margins of high-end properties to cover their higher overhead (and probably higher levels of debt).

Tourists are not that sensitive to gambling value or they wouldn't come to LV in the first place.

[MisterV]

That makes sense I guess..."fools and their money" and all that.

[accountinquestion]

That makes sense I guess..."fools and their money" and all that.

He's not wrong .. but it seems possible to me if marketed correctly you could possibly turn the property into a profitable successful place. The alternative is to flounder about bleeding money with nothing that makes you distinct from other properties.

[DGenBen]

That makes sense I guess..."fools and their money" and all that.

He's not wrong .. but it seems possible to me if marketed correctly you could possibly turn the property into a profitable successful place. The alternative is to flounder about bleeding money with nothing that makes you distinct from other properties.

Exactly.

The bad location & lack of existing customer base is preventing it from drawing the customers that don’t care much about value at properties in the center of the strip due to the center strip experience.

So their best bet is to try something different to attract customers.

Just waiting around doing nothing while they’re losing 6 figures a day & waiting for the type of customers they were originally targeting to magically just start appearing is probably not the best strategy.

[MDawg]

One thing they are no doubt hoping with help draw traffic is the NBA stadium that will be built next door (between Fontainebleau and Sahara). But that won't be completed for some time.

[coach belly]

Most of the older tourist crowd that visits Vegas (on either side of a knee replacement or two), isn't going to walk that.

Is foot traffic that big of a deal? My knees are good, but I'm not wandering over to Wynn or Mandalay Bay from Center Strip either. I'll stay there, but not walking there from Flamingo Ave.

As a tourist, I view almost all the properties outside of center strip as islands. I would even put MGM Grand in island category over on that side.

[DGenBen]

Most of the older tourist crowd that visits Vegas (on either side of a knee replacement or two), isn't going to walk that.

Is foot traffic that big of a deal? My knees are good, but I'm not wandering over to Wynn or Mandalay Bay from Center Strip either. I'll stay there, but not walking there from Flamingo Ave.

As a tourist, I view almost all the properties outside of center strip as islands. I would even put MGM Grand in island category over on that side.

The difference with those places & Fountainebleau is they all have a long established customer base already.

[MDawg]

Foot traffic does matter.

For example when R World Vegas opened, some of the higher ups there mentioned to me that it was after the weather cooled down (R World opened at the end of June 2021) that they started experiencing some noticeable foot traffic, because, "who wants to walk down the sidewalk when it's over 100 degrees."

But I think the problem places like R World and Fontainebleau experience as far as foot traffic isn't just proximity from the center of the Strip, but that there is no casino directly adjacent to them. R World has an empty lot, the empty lot owned by Wynn and still undeveloped, across the street and directly south of them, and then the Fashion Show Mall, and then, finally, across another street, Treasure Island.

So anyone strolling down the west side of the Strip from Caesars, Mirage (Hard Rock) or T.I. would need to pass the mall, then an empty lot, to wind up at R World.

Walking down the east side of the Strip, going south, people regularly pass from Venetian to Wynn, but after passing Encore, there is nothing but taco shops, commercial stores and a parking lot before arriving at Fontainebleau. So you'd really have to be dedicated to going to Fontainebleau or to Sahara to keep walking past Tacos El Pastor and Tacos El Gordo until you arrived.

People really do walk up and down the Strip, and they really do pop into one casino after another. Even if this doesn't necessarily result in their playing at that casino that moment, at least it gets them inside and exposed such that they might come back another time. If the foot traffic dies down on the Strip before it even reaches Fontainebleau, that is a large potential base that will not enter the casino at all.

I mean even the tunnel dwellers like UNKewlJ aren't going to venture down that far south unless they have to.

On the other hand, if you may develop your niche, people will land at your casino even if there isn't much reason to walk there. Circus Circus seems to be doing fine.

But foot traffic never hurts.

[redietz]

Most of the older tourist crowd that visits Vegas (on either side of a knee replacement or two), isn't going to walk that.

Is foot traffic that big of a deal? My knees are good, but I'm not wandering over to Wynn or Mandalay Bay from Center Strip either. I'll stay there, but not walking there from Flamingo Ave.

As a tourist, I view almost all the properties outside of center strip as islands. I would even put MGM Grand in island category over on that side.

Interesting comment. I think the recent spate of 112+ degree weeks in LV, setting records, combined with more than 60% of Americans being obese, combined with car rentals being pricey, combined with parking fees, all coalesce into people not walking, not driving, and therefore not visiting properties outside the center strip. I think people can still handle the full-block-walk once a visit, down to Wynn or up to MGM, but that's about it. If you're center strip, as most people are, that's where you'll drop anchor.

The monorail becomes a key variable in whether people visit up or down the strip at all. I have no idea what percent of visitors actually use it.

[coach belly]

The monorail becomes a key variable in whether people visit up or down the strip at all. I have no idea what percent of visitors actually use it.

I'll walk blocks for miles in NYC, I'll walk the entire BW and back in AC.

But in Vegas, even the hike to catch the monorail doesn't seem worth the trouble.

[MDawg]

I have never ridden the Vegas monorail. I have been on the trams that go from Mirage to T.I. and back, the one from Bellagio to Aria to Park MGM and back, a few times on the Excalibur to Mandalay one too, because those more or less follow the path of the Strip and have convenient pick up and drop off locations. Plus they are free.

When I am in the vicinity of Bally's or Paris, and headed south, I am headed to Venetian or Wynn, and the monorail doesn't stop at either, so it would not occur to me to take the monorail. I think the monorail is more suited to convention traffic headed to the Las Vegas Convention Center, especially from the MGM Grand.